Jump to content

Reality And Spirituality


Soule
 Share

Recommended Posts

Also, I would like to add that when we look at a table we can't see what that table really is. All it really is is a bunch of atoms that have stuck together in a certain way to appear as a table. The only reason we can't put our hand through it is because the these atoms are moving so fast that it "appears" solid. We can't see this movement. Life is just vibrations and sensing these vibrations.

 

:grin:NBBTB, that is what I was saying! I think we are in agreement with Soule. Perhaps things exist only because there are receptors, senses, to interpret these energy waves... or is something creating itself through life via energy waves? :scratch::eek:

 

I think the only reality must be a type of consciousness/energy behind it all, either trying to figure out itself and/or constantly creating itself.

 

I read an article in Chefranden's thread the other day that said the human brain has tripled in the last 3 million years! I am wondering if that was gradual growth, or exponential growth? Therefore, I think there are probably more senses to evolve for us, another level of perceiving other energy waves and who knows what will be created out of it. But perhaps in the end, we find it all is no thing, just conscious energy waves creating itself through all life as we go along. :twitch:

 

Ahhhh, maybe hanging out in the concrete illusion is more fun? Carpe Diem! :wicked:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 160
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Also, I would like to add that when we look at a table we can't see what that table really is. All it really is is a bunch of atoms that have stuck together in a certain way to appear as a table. The only reason we can't put our hand through it is because the these atoms are moving so fast that it "appears" solid. We can't see this movement. Life is just vibrations and sensing these vibrations.

 

:grin:NBBTB, that is what I was saying! I think we are in agreement with Soule. Perhaps things exist only because there are receptors, senses, to interpret these energy waves... or is something creating itself through life via energy waves? :scratch::eek:

 

I think the only reality must be a type of consciousness/energy behind it all, either trying to figure out itself and/or constantly creating itself.

 

I read an article in Chefranden's thread the other day that said the human brain has tripled in the last 3 million years! I am wondering if that was gradual growth, or exponential growth? Therefore, I think there are probably more senses to evolve for us, another level of perceiving other energy waves and who knows what will be created out of it. But perhaps in the end, we find it all is no thing, just conscious energy waves creating itself through all life as we go along. :twitch:

 

Ahhhh, maybe hanging out in the concrete illusion is more fun? Carpe Diem! :wicked:

 

just because its more fun or more comfortable, dosnt mean that its true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just because its more fun or more comfortable, dosnt mean that its true.

Hi Soule,

 

This I would agree with, relatively. :HaHa: It is true for our senses, but not absolutely true. Of course, this isn't saying anything you (and others) haven't said already. :grin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, I would like to add that when we look at a table we can't see what that table really is. All it really is is a bunch of atoms that have stuck together in a certain way to appear as a table. The only reason we can't put our hand through it is because the these atoms are moving so fast that it "appears" solid. We can't see this movement. Life is just vibrations and sensing these vibrations.

 

:grin:NBBTB, that is what I was saying! I think we are in agreement with Soule. Perhaps things exist only because there are receptors, senses, to interpret these energy waves... or is something creating itself through life via energy waves? :scratch::eek:

 

I think the only reality must be a type of consciousness/energy behind it all, either trying to figure out itself and/or constantly creating itself.

 

I read an article in Chefranden's thread the other day that said the human brain has tripled in the last 3 million years! I am wondering if that was gradual growth, or exponential growth? Therefore, I think there are probably more senses to evolve for us, another level of perceiving other energy waves and who knows what will be created out of it. But perhaps in the end, we find it all is no thing, just conscious energy waves creating itself through all life as we go along. :twitch:

 

Ahhhh, maybe hanging out in the concrete illusion is more fun? Carpe Diem! :wicked:

I know...it's pretty fascinating! I wonder what the world would like like if we could sense, or see, the entire spectrum of light? What would it sound like if we could hear the entire range of sounds? What if our brains could register images faster than one every 1/6 of a second? I wonder how different "reality" would be then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know...it's pretty fascinating! I wonder what the world would like like if we could sense, or see, the entire spectrum of light? What would it sound like if we could hear the entire range of sounds? What if our brains could register images faster than one every 1/6 of a second? I wonder how different "reality" would be then.

 

Or... how different would reality be if we did not experience relativity? If we did not experience ourselves as separate in any way, if we could experience non-dualism, how different would our "reality" be then? :wicked:

 

How would we see other people - people different from ourselves - if we lost the sense of separateness?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know...it's pretty fascinating! I wonder what the world would like like if we could sense, or see, the entire spectrum of light? What would it sound like if we could hear the entire range of sounds? What if our brains could register images faster than one every 1/6 of a second? I wonder how different "reality" would be then.

 

Or... how different would reality be if we did not experience relativity? If we did not experience ourselves as separate in any way, if we could experience non-dualism, how different would our "reality" be then? :wicked:

 

How would we see other people - people different from ourselves - if we lost the sense of separateness?

Ohhhhh.....cool. So we could say that God is 'sense'less! :grin: Yes, that was a bad pun but possibly true! Oh man...we could go on and on with this one. :HaHa:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just because its more fun or more comfortable, dosnt mean that its true.

 

:)Soule, you're right. However, we really don't know what truth really is. If we are to live our day every day... don't we have to choose a collective reality that is congruent amongst us? How can I live my life and enjoy it to the fullest, if I decide these aspects of our concrete concepts are just a lie? :ohmy: There are a lot of benefits associated with it... so I guess that it is these agreements to accept this concrete illusion as reality, that allow us to communicate and enjoy each other. :wicked:

 

Or... how different would reality be if we did not experience relativity? If we did not experience ourselves as separate in any way, if we could experience non-dualism, how different would our "reality" be then? :wicked:

 

How would we see other people - people different from ourselves - if we lost the sense of separateness?

 

:)Open Minded, if we come to recognize we are all one, which I think will someday happen, think of what we will be losing. If we are all of the same mind, we lose companionship and many treasured expreinces that come with seeing each of us as truly separate beings. We would not have this forum right now. At best, we could just have a pretend friend... and how can that compare to all this?

 

:)NBBTB, I like your philosophy of just enjoying today, because that is all we really have.... I think. :scratch: ---- :HaHa:

 

Maybe there is a supreme being that actually knows what it is doing here, and as Wayne Dyer says... there is no way to happiness, happiness is the way. :wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or... how different would reality be if we did not experience relativity? If we did not experience ourselves as separate in any way, if we could experience non-dualism, how different would our "reality" be then? :wicked:

 

How would we see other people - people different from ourselves - if we lost the sense of separateness?

Ohhhhh.....cool. So we could say that God is 'sense'less! :grin: Yes, that was a bad pun but possibly true! Oh man...we could go on and on with this one. :HaHa:

 

NotBlinded... ILWYT :grin:

 

Let's go a bit further - maybe that's one way to look at God as transcendent (maybe as transcending any awareness of separatedness - or transcending any of the limiting human senses)?????? :grin:

 

____________

 

Amanda ... I just noticed your post as I was about to post the above...

 

Open Minded, if we come to recognize we are all one, which I think will someday happen, think of what we will be losing. If we are all of the same mind, we lose companionship and many treasured expreinces that come with seeing each of us as truly separate beings. We would not have this forum right now. At best, we could just have a pretend friend... and how can that compare to all this?

 

I'm not so sure we would loose this. There are many documented cases of individual experiences of ONENESS. These experience cross cultural lines and religious lines. And even though these experiences allow the perceiver to be aware of a non-relative dimension - they do not completely loose sense of the relative dimension. They seem to be able to take in both the relative and non-relative. Many of the mystics (modern mystics - the ancient mystics would not have had the scientific language) I've read have spoken about these experiences as if tapping into a non-relative dimension of existence. But that doesn't mean they loose sense of the relative dimension.

 

It's sort of like being able to experience space and time and relativity - now one more dimension is added to the mix. Does that make any sense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:)Open Minded, if we come to recognize we are all one, which I think will someday happen, think of what we will be losing. If we are all of the same mind, we lose companionship and many treasured expreinces that come with seeing each of us as truly separate beings. We would not have this forum right now. At best, we could just have a pretend friend... and how can that compare to all this?

IMO, I don't think we will loose these things. We will still have them, but without all the little lies we tell ourselves. I would know that you and I are of the same essence, so I wouldn't have to see myself as less than you or more than you. It would be a turning inward to find ourselves and each other. Afterall, we are the same stuff. It wouldn't change our physical brains, it would just usher in a new and enlightened understanding of each other. Your truths and my truths would just be understood for what they are...different parts of the same Truth. No better...no less. If we could understand this, the fighting about who is right would stop. The allegory of Adam and Eve speaks of this paradise before we realized that what we believed to be Truth about ourselves was nothing more than a lie. We would actually know this state of oneness with everything that the allegory calls paradise. Of course...IMO.

 

We already have this capacity, we just don't recognize it. We can't have separateness without oneness. They are both part of our world of duality. Our attention would just shift to where we know that this world of duality is only an illusion and they are really just necessary parts of the whole to begin with. We can't give up one for the other, because they are both one in the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:)Thanks Open Minded and NBBTB! :thanks:

 

I've thought of the oneness, and had concluded that maybe we don't want to rush there if we have to forfeit companionship and such. I like it when people have different ideas, and don't all think alike. I like what you both said, and gives me a much more positive outlook. :phew:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure we would loose this. There are many documented cases of individual experiences of ONENESS. These experience cross cultural lines and religious lines. And even though these experiences allow the perceiver to be aware of a non-relative dimension - they do not completely loose sense of the relative dimension. They seem to be able to take in both the relative and non-relative. Many of the mystics (modern mystics - the ancient mystics would not have had the scientific language) I've read have spoken about these experiences as if tapping into a non-relative dimension of existence. But that doesn't mean they loose sense of the relative dimension.

 

It's sort of like being able to experience space and time and relativity - now one more dimension is added to the mix. Does that make any sense?

 

Oh my God!

 

 

IMO, I don't think we will loose these things. We will still have them, but without all the little lies we tell ourselves. I would know that you and I are of the same essence, so I wouldn't have to see myself as less than you or more than you. It would be a turning inward to find ourselves and each other. Afterall, we are the same stuff. It wouldn't change our physical brains, it would just usher in a new and enlightened understanding of each other. Your truths and my truths would just be understood for what they are...different parts of the same Truth. No better...no less. If we could understand this, the fighting about who is right would stop. The allegory of Adam and Eve speaks of this paradise before we realized that what we believed to be Truth about ourselves was nothing more than a lie. We would actually know this state of oneness with everything that the allegory calls paradise. Of course...IMO.

 

We already have this capacity, we just don't recognize it. We can't have separateness without oneness. They are both part of our world of duality. Our attention would just shift to where we know that this world of duality is only an illusion and they are really just necessary parts of the whole to begin with. We can't give up one for the other, because they are both one in the same.

 

:eek: I swear with every ounce of my being that I did not read your response before I posted.

 

ILWYT too! That is just scary!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:eek: I swear with every ounce of my being that I did not read your response before I posted.

 

ILWYT too! That is just scary!

 

:lmao::funny:

 

Ditto to that. :grin:

_________________

I've thought of the oneness, and had concluded that maybe we don't want to rush there if we have to forfeit companionship and such. I like it when people have different ideas, and don't all think alike. I like what you both said, and gives me a much more positive outlook.

 

Oh no, Amanda ... don't worry about the experience of oneness. One of the nice things about living in today's world is that scientists are studying these things. Monks from different traditions are contributing their personal experiences. And a lot more is being discovered to put these experiences in the light of natural occurance.

 

I can't remember how many dimensions scientists feel there are, besides the ones humans are currently capable of experiencing. But, there are several. In the reading I've done, I've become convinced that these ONENESS experiences are just perceiving another dimension without giving up awareness of the dimensions we are currently capable of perceiving.

 

And this wouldn't be out of line at all with theory of evolution. As humanity evolves, it would only make sense that we would grow to perceive more dimensions than we can now. :shrug:

 

BTW ... I agree with you .... the world is a truly fascinating place BECAUSE of our differences. I would hate for that to go away as well. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is Joseph Campbell that speaks about this state of oneness in comparision of schizophrenia. One is essential and the other is pyschotic. They are both a turning inward. The difference is that the essential is one that can take the experience and return and their lives are better for it. The psychotic takes the experience and identifies him/herself with it. They just didn't experience God, they become God. If they experience Christ, they become Christ. I think they can't incorporate the separateness with the oneness.

 

And this wouldn't be out of line at all with theory of evolution. As humanity evolves, it would only make sense that we would grow to perceive more dimensions than we can now. :shrug:

Oh...Amanda even said that herself:

 

I read an article in Chefranden's thread the other day that said the human brain has tripled in the last 3 million years! I am wondering if that was gradual growth, or exponential growth? Therefore, I think there are probably more senses to evolve for us, another level of perceiving other energy waves and who knows what will be created out of it. But perhaps in the end, we find it all is no thing, just conscious energy waves creating itself through all life as we go aong.

:grin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Open_Minded @ Aug 9 2006, 02:26 PM) And this wouldn't be out of line at all with theory of evolution. As humanity evolves, it would only make sense that we would grow to perceive more dimensions than we can now.

Oh...Amanda even said that herself:

QUOTE(Amanda)I read an article in Chefranden's thread the other day that said the human brain has tripled in the last 3 million years! I am wondering if that was gradual growth, or exponential growth? Therefore, I think there are probably more senses to evolve for us, another level of perceiving other energy waves and who knows what will be created out of it. But perhaps in the end, we find it all is no thing, just conscious energy waves creating itself through all life as we go aong.

 

So... then the question becomes -

 

If humanity is to survive the evolutionary battle how important is it that we reach an awareness of this ONENESS dimension in mass - as a whole species?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Open_Minded @ Aug 9 2006, 02:26 PM) And this wouldn't be out of line at all with theory of evolution. As humanity evolves, it would only make sense that we would grow to perceive more dimensions than we can now.

Oh...Amanda even said that herself:

QUOTE(Amanda)I read an article in Chefranden's thread the other day that said the human brain has tripled in the last 3 million years! I am wondering if that was gradual growth, or exponential growth? Therefore, I think there are probably more senses to evolve for us, another level of perceiving other energy waves and who knows what will be created out of it. But perhaps in the end, we find it all is no thing, just conscious energy waves creating itself through all life as we go aong.

 

So... then the question becomes -

 

If humanity is to survive the evolutionary battle how important is it that we reach an awareness of this ONENESS dimension in mass - as a whole species?

wow... this string went above and beyond what hopes i had for it. all of my questions are ment to invoke thought, but this is absolutely beautiful.

 

personally i feel that it is pretty darn important if humanity is to not destroy itself. as religion starts to overtake culture and law again, with the evolved knowledge of weapons, humans have begun the decent in a spiral towards the destruction of our race.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is an interview done with Eckhart Tolle and I find it quite fitting for here. I agree with him that it is important for people to shift their thinking.

 

"But there's a shift happening in humanity, a shift in consciousness, happening now because it has to happen now. Because if it doesn't happen now, mankind probably won't survive. The dysfunction of the human mind and its condition is becoming more and more intolerable to the planet, and to humanity. People can't live with themselves much longer. The planet cannot live with humans much longer! The dysfunction has become so magnified through technology.

 

Whereas before, a human could kill a few hundred with a sword---if he was a warrior--- now, the same dysfunction is magnified. So we have the weaponry, destruction of the planet, pollution, destruction of forests, countless manifestations of humans using their intelligence in the service of the dysfunction, the madness. It's a strange juxtaposition. Humans are intelligent, but if you look at history or even watch TV, they're also incredibly stupid.

 

JM: Speaking of weapons of mass destruction; what do we do about that? What do we do about countries which wish our country great harm? What's an alternative if the other side is bent on suicide, as the men of 9-11 were? If you have a vast Army at your disposal, what do you do?

 

ET: I don't know what I would do, because I can only know what is right in an actual situation which demands a response. It's very hard when you look at hypotheticals. What we can do is look at the dysfunction in its collective aspects that we're witnessing now.

 

We can see, for example, what's happening in the middle East with the eternal insane conflict between Israel and Palestine. We can see how each faction is totally convinced that their mental position is the correct one. Each faction sees itself as the victim of the other. There was a writer I read last year who said each side cannot recognize any narrative other than their own; that's also true. Narrative means the story through which you interpret reality.

 

People have collective stories which are mental perspectives and mental positions. Of course, when they explain it to you, it sounds absolutely right. Then you go to the other story, and they explain it to you, and that sounds absolutely right. Both are so entrenched in their narrative, their mental positions and their identifications with mental positions that they cannot see anything else. That really symbolizes the very thing that lies at the core of human dysfunction.

 

There you see it expressed collectively. An inability to hold truth in your consciousness. To rise above polarities, and say, here's this perspective which is ours, and I can also see the other perspective which is yours. If both could do that---even if one party could do that---there would be an end to the madness. It only gets perpetuated by two. You can see the same in personal relationships, you can see the same in marriages that exist in a state of warfare. Both are entrenched. There is this ongoing need to be right. What that really ultimately means is they are identified with the thinking. They have not stepped out of the structure of thought---their mental position, their thought position. The way out of the madness is to recognize thought as just thought. To see your own stream of thinking, to see that no thought can encapsulate the entire truth in any situation. You have to step out of thought to see that. To become the awareness outside of thought. Some people are driven out of thought out of suffering, others can step out of thought because they see that thought is dysfunctional. So we see then that terrorists that inflict suffering on innocent people, kills thousands, blows himself up---how is it that he cannot see what he is doing?

 

He cannot see because he has reduced other human beings around him to a mental concept. He puts a mental label on other human beings or groups of humans or whatever he calls them---infidels, evil. Once you have conceptualized another human being, covering up their essential aliveness, you also do it to yourself. You become identified with your own self concepts of who you are, because you are right, you are the believer, you are in possession of the truth. You can then inflict acts of violence on other humans without feeling anymore because you've already desensitized yourself, you've deadened their aliveness. So violence becomes very easy when you only operate from the level of thought. Thought plus very destructive emotion that accompanies those destructive thought patterns. That's what drives the terrorist. He truly, as Jesus puts it on the cross, "They know not what they do."

 

In spiritual terms, they are completely unconscious. Unconscious means identified totally with thought. You reduce reality to a conceptual reality. A lot of violence arises in that way. "

 

From here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So... then the question becomes -

 

If humanity is to survive the evolutionary battle how important is it that we reach an awareness of this ONENESS dimension in mass - as a whole species?

wow... this string went above and beyond what hopes i had for it. all of my questions are ment to invoke thought, but this is absolutely beautiful.

 

personally i feel that it is pretty darn important if humanity is to not destroy itself. as religion starts to overtake culture and law again, with the evolved knowledge of weapons, humans have begun the decent in a spiral towards the destruction of our race.

 

Yes... Soule .... I've thought about this for sometime now. In fact, this very question is what motivates me in my work with interfaith dialog and interspiritual exploration. Unless humans mature and evolve to the point where they recognize (at least on a conscious level - if not by actual experience) the oneness of all existence - then we will destroy each other. It has become that simple in my mind.

 

But - I do believe humanity is evolving in this direction. I believe it is possible to see more and more people accept the united reality of creation (and of the human family). Just in our life time I believe this increased awareness is beginning to take hold. Who knows where humanity will be in the ability to perceive this ONENESS 2 or 3 generations from now??? :shrug:

 

I hope for the best. :grin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thats true. if something dosnt change drastically soon, there will be no more humanity, or even earth.

 

the recent explosion of awareness from the recent generations of what people call the "indigo children" is helping yes. but we need to hope it works fast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:eek: I swear with every ounce of my being that I did not read your response before I posted.

 

ILWYT too! That is just scary!

 

:) Maybe that is some of that 'oneness' going on? :Hmm:

 

So... then the question becomes -

 

If humanity is to survive the evolutionary battle how important is it that we reach an awareness of this ONENESS dimension in mass - as a whole species?

 

I've heard some theories that humans will be elevated by our vibratory levels, and that people meditating has a significant influence on that. Further, it mentioned that we don't have to meditate to receive the benefits for the vibratory levels it raises, I think to our consciousness. If this is true... thanks a lot Open Minded for your efforts in that area. :thanks:

 

wow... this string went above and beyond what hopes i had for it. all of my questions are ment to invoke thought, but this is absolutely beautiful.

 

I suppose we are all part of that oneness thing again. :wink:

 

thats true. if something dosnt change drastically soon, there will be no more humanity, or even earth.

 

Gosh, people have been saying that for millenias. Do you really think we are that close to it?

 

BTW, who are the indigo children?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Computer Technology can possible bring us the oneness. If we could connect our brain to the Internet, we could communicate instant, and on the level of thought. There's always a certain vulnerability to such a system, but it could actually work to some degree.

 

Just by the first step, connecting on thought-level, a community would develop common experiences and memories that are distributed and shared. It would lead to a deeper feeling of unity. Multiconsciousness into uniconsciousness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thats true. if something dosnt change drastically soon, there will be no more humanity, or even earth.

 

Gosh, people have been saying that for millenias. Do you really think we are that close to it?

 

BTW, who are the indigo children?

 

people havent had a nuclear threat for millenias. a nuclear war would destroy humanity, or at least most of it.

 

the term indigo children is based upon a prophacy of children being born into the world more aware of the spiritual/energetical aspect of the world whos aura eminated a deep indigo color.

 

i am not saying any such prophacy exists in truth, or that inigo children exist. i'm saying that what is happening is quite similar to what the prophacy predicts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know...it's pretty fascinating! I wonder what the world would like like if we could sense, or see, the entire spectrum of light? What would it sound like if we could hear the entire range of sounds? What if our brains could register images faster than one every 1/6 of a second? I wonder how different "reality" would be then.

 

Or... how different would reality be if we did not experience relativity? If we did not experience ourselves as separate in any way, if we could experience non-dualism, how different would our "reality" be then? :wicked:

 

How would we see other people - people different from ourselves - if we lost the sense of separateness?

 

Hi OM,

I appreciate your posts.

I have thought about what would happen if we indeed could surmount the dualism that seems constitute our experience. In short, I think that we would end up in a meaningless state. I am going to talk in terms of culture here instead of all different sorts of dualisms - this is what I know.

 

The notion of oneness that you address here and elsewhere is interesting (and it reminds me of Dilthey (I surprised that he did not show up in your (?) thesis refs)). Specifically, I have been working out what the experience of oneness entails. We all engage in activity with people from different collectivities. For example, we have experiences in living life with others in the realm of work, church, school, nation, city, etc. In each of these 'forms of life' (Wittgenstien, PI) there is a normativity in which we participate that grants us a taken-for-granted set of understandings which are taken a irreducibly true (Taylor, 'Philosophical Arguments'). This taken-for-granted nature of these truths is such that we cannot perceive the world outside of this normative structure in itself. When we engage with the other (i.e. one from a different form of life) we come to a place where can gain some sense of outsideness by virtue of our being able to see ourselves through the eyes of the other. It is in the juxtaposition between I and the other that I am able to look lack upon myself and gain grounds from which I can change my life. If we surmount the I-other distinction and have a sense of oneness, we run into problems because we would not have any more capacity for outsideness and loose any capacity for self reflection. I wonder, and suspect that this is the case, if meaning is only possible on the boundary where two sides of a dualism come into contact. If you fuse the two sides of a dualism in some sort of idealist (probably Hegelian?) synthesis, then their uniqueness and special value is lost. Some (such as my hero Bakhtin) would argue that the capacity for aesthetic creation and growth would also be lost because there is no longer a sense of outsideness.

 

Of course, you see that I am working form the perspective of a 'propositional' unity. If we are talking about a 'felt' unity (here is Dilthey), then the distinctions among 'poles' of a dualism can be retained along with oneness without contradictions. If the oneness that is achieved is an acceptance of a self-consciousness of one's own juxtaposition relative to others and relative to the different me's (James, 'Principles of Psychology'). That is, oneness is acceptance of ambivalence and a lack of defined state.

 

Best,

Jim

 

It may be late but I recommend the following regarding the non-objectivity of perception:

http://www.princeton.edu/~skelly/Research/...0and%20Phen.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This taken-for-granted nature of these truths is such that we cannot perceive the world outside of this normative structure in itself. When we engage with the other (i.e. one from a different form of life) we come to a place where can gain some sense of outsideness by virtue of our being able to see ourselves through the eyes of the other.

------------------------------

If you fuse the two sides of a dualism in some sort of idealist (probably Hegelian?) synthesis, then their uniqueness and special value is lost. Some (such as my hero Bakhtin) would argue that the capacity for aesthetic creation and growth would also be lost because there is no longer a sense of outsideness.

 

Of course, you see that I am working form the perspective of a 'propositional' unity. If we are talking about a 'felt' unity (here is Dilthey), then the distinctions among 'poles' of a dualism can be retained along with oneness without contradictions. If the oneness that is achieved is an acceptance of a self-consciousness of one's own juxtaposition relative to others and relative to the different me's (James, 'Principles of Psychology'). That is, oneness is acceptance of ambivalence and a lack of defined state.

:)Hi Jim! Welcome to the forums... as I haven't seen you around before now! I know this post was addressed to Open Minded, and I look forward to her answer too, however, I think you are coming to the conclusion similar as I, initially.

 

I think if we look at ourselves as different perspectives, different expressions of the same entity, then we maintain our individual uniqueness and also appreciate our interrelated unity. If one is considered as a red blood cell and another as interferon, each can appreciate the difference in the other, yet maintain that both are equally valued parts of the whole, even though they render different contributions. It is hard to know one's self, however, one may know itself by how it effects others. If one were to preceive itself better than the other, or that one or the other is dispensable.... :eek:

 

How can a sense of outsideness hold something else worthy of reverence any more than appreciating that we and he/she/it are one? We seem to naturally appreciate something that is part of us more valuable than that which is not... hence patriotism, etc.. Ambivalence, as in complacency, comes from a sense of feeling... "it's not my problem." Having a sense of unity with all things, complacency and ambivalence would seem to be weakened. :shrug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This taken-for-granted nature of these truths is such that we cannot perceive the world outside of this normative structure in itself. When we engage with the other (i.e. one from a different form of life) we come to a place where can gain some sense of outsideness by virtue of our being able to see ourselves through the eyes of the other.

------------------------------

If you fuse the two sides of a dualism in some sort of idealist (probably Hegelian?) synthesis, then their uniqueness and special value is lost. Some (such as my hero Bakhtin) would argue that the capacity for aesthetic creation and growth would also be lost because there is no longer a sense of outsideness.

 

Of course, you see that I am working form the perspective of a 'propositional' unity. If we are talking about a 'felt' unity (here is Dilthey), then the distinctions among 'poles' of a dualism can be retained along with oneness without contradictions. If the oneness that is achieved is an acceptance of a self-consciousness of one's own juxtaposition relative to others and relative to the different me's (James, 'Principles of Psychology'). That is, oneness is acceptance of ambivalence and a lack of defined state.

Welcome on board, Jimmy :wave:

 

Jimmy - what I'm getting out of your response is that you feel there's a possibility that our "uniqueness" could get lost in an experience of oneness?

 

Honestly - before Amanda mentioned it in this thread - I'd never given it any thought. I know that may sound odd coming from someone who has intentionally pursued meditation for 30+ years. But, truly I had never given it a thought.

 

On a personal level I started meditating in my late teens because of medical issues. At the time I didn't know anything about "Oneness". I was your typical "know-it-all" young adult. Meditation was a way to deal with a medical issue without having to take drugs everyday for the rest of my life. It was that simple.

 

I didn't read any of the mystics - quite honestly I didn't know any western mystics existed. What I knew of meditation was eastern - and it was taught to me for medical purposes. So, all the spiritual implications were not discussed. It was a clinical technique - nothing else. (In hindsight I wish I'd been exposed to the spiritual implications earlier - it would have made my meditative journey much easier.)

 

As I matured I did start to learn the spiritual implications. But, honestly, I didn't read about it until after the fact - if you get my drift. So, I'd have these experiences, I wouldn't understand them, I'd go searching and come across the mystics. Then I'd read. That has been the pattern of my learning about the spiritual dimension of meditation.

 

As a result - the ONENESS - which I've experienced, came before any real in-depth reading about it. So, I never had any time to worry about whether I would loose my individuality or uniqueness in the experience itself. (As I said, sometimes I wish I had, because I was not prepared for what ACTUALLY DID HAPPEN.) What actually happened was NOT a loss of the sense of my uniqueness, but a loss of SELF - and there is a difference.

 

Please keep in mind when I speak of a loss of SELF (I'm speaking of a loss of a FALSE sense of self). It drops away - and one feels quite free actually. Very free - so free that it becomes extremely difficult to remain "grounded" - to keep a sense that the little things of life must be done.

 

Without loosing a sense of one's uniqueness - one becomes suddenly aware of well ONENESS - I'm sorry I can't think of a better word - but just ONE. So many false boundaries disappear and everything and everyone just radiates and LOVE and JOY and WISDOM just pervade the whole of existence. When one is confronted with the utter beauty of life - then the little things fall into place. Meaning it's suddenly not so important to do the laundry, peel the carrots for supper, and clean the house ... Do you see where I'm going here?

 

One can get lost in this experience - for the first year, or so, after the initial experience, one has to work very hard to stay "present" in daily life. After awhile the experience of oneness becomes integrated into the whole of life and it easier to stay "present" with the daily living - but the first year or so can be very unsettling.

 

Jimmy ... as I wrote earlier in this thread .... I've led a meditation group for years now. Because of this I've helped others navigate these types of experiences. Honestly - there is nothing to fear. After these types of experiences - people may be more aware of the unity of life - but trust me - they are still the same individual they were before. They still have their same personal preferences and tastes in life. They still enjoy the same things - just more deeply. They still disagree with those they love, they still make mistakes and they still have to learn. They still get angry - sometimes intensely angry and they still say and do things they shouldn't do. They still have to deal with a "false" sense of self, even though it has been dimished by the experience. They still love deeply and they still feel vulnerability. They still feel the individual joys and sorrows they felt before the experience. Everything that made them "unique" before the experience remains with them after the experience.

 

It's all still there - they are just more "open" about living. They are more "open" to people different from themselves. They are more "open" about the problems of the world and the problems of humanity. They are more willing to seek solutions outside their former "false boundaries" - they are more willing to act in the world in ways that pursue peace between people of different perspectives. They revere the environment more and talk of the earth and creation in a more holistic way and see more of a need to pursue "healing" with creation as well as within humanity. In many ways these types of experiences give a person what they lost from childhood - a sense that ultimately there is goodness. And this is part of their experience even though they maintain the realistic outlook of an adult who has seen the harshness of the world.

 

Hi Jim! Welcome to the forums... as I haven't seen you around before now! I know this post was addressed to Open Minded, and I look forward to her answer too, however, I think you are coming to the conclusion similar as I, initially.

 

I think if we look at ourselves as different perspectives, different expressions of the same entity, then we maintain our individual uniqueness and also appreciate our interrelated unity. If one is considered as a red blood cell and another as interferon, each can appreciate the difference in the other, yet maintain that both are equally valued parts of the whole, even though they render different contributions. It is hard to know one's self, however, one may know itself by how it effects others. If one were to preceive itself better than the other, or that one or the other is dispensable.... :eek:

 

How can a sense of outsideness hold something else worthy of reverence any more than appreciating that we and he/she/it are one? We seem to naturally appreciate something that is part of us more valuable than that which is not... hence patriotism, etc.. Ambivalence, as in complacency, comes from a sense of feeling... "it's not my problem." Having a sense of unity with all things, complacency and ambivalence would seem to be weakened. :shrug:

 

Amanda - I love your answer. :)

 

It reminded me of something else I've read many times. :grin:

 

Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot would say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear would say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many members, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and those members of the body that we think less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our less respectable members are treated with greater respect; whereas our more respectable members do not need this. But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it.

 

It's too bad so many people read the Bible in such narrow ways - because they fail to see the underlying message. What you wrote, Amanda, takes this thinking to the level of humanity - the level of creation. I love it. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's too bad so many people read the Bible in such narrow ways - because they fail to see the underlying message. What you wrote, Amanda, takes this thinking to the level of humanity - the level of creation. I love it. :)

 

Awww shucks, Open Minded, thanks! You say things much more eloquently than I! Your posts are always appreciated by me. :thanks:

 

It's not that people read the Bible too narrow minded, IMO, as it is the pervasive spin and hijacking of these teachings that seem to have been altered for personal gains, then endoctorinated into society. :ugh: What is amazing, is that people who were raised and/or brought into the thick of these crazy ideologies were able to escape them by NOT being narrow minded, and found the core essence of a more real truth on their own... like those here at ExC!

 

Although I still give merit to these teachings, I am thankful for the more critical perspective brought to me here, and was amazed at how much I had even been effected by fundamentalism. I think the wonderful diversity and openness amongst those here has really helped everyone on here! I assure you that this site is certainly more open and dedicated to truth than any "church" I've attended. I've read where you attend an unusually great church, and I did have a teacher in seminary the same way, but it is rare. This place seems to offer the most unity than any place! :10:

 

I keep seeing the ExCs as the closest thing to true Christians, yet... don't tell anyone... :Look:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.