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Goodbye Jesus

Jesus


Abiyoyo

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Why Jesus? Why does He have to be the one of many, or the one that lied? The one mocked, ridiculed, smuged, into this character of fictional being. Why does He have to be the one that didnt exist, or existed but made to seem as if He were a conn artist? Why does He have to be the one who didnt do it exactly like everyone wanted, or in the ways we want to see it, with our deep allknowing mindsets?

 

Is there another that has the following and makes the same claims? Allah has a bigger following, but no “son” that claims equality with him. We give Allah the same shit we give Jesus, but Jesus is the only one that claims to have become one of us, claims to have died for our sins, but then takes it back and acts like he did something special for us. A true act of sacrifice would not be taken back.

 

The one that lied? We never said Jesus lied. Hell, most of us don’t believe Jesus ever existed. How does someone who doesn’t exist lie? He doesn’t. The assholes that exalt the myth to the level that requires lies do.

 

As for the one of many…well shit. That’s just common knowledge. I’m sorry you’re not willing to educate yourself beyond the Holy Babble so that you can see it.

 

Mocked, ridiculed, smudged...I’ll simply speak for myself here since I don’t know the hearts and minds of the other members of this site, but all claimed gods who are presented to me are mocked, ridiculed, and “smuged(sic) into this character of fictional being”. There are no non-fictional gods, demi-gods, or even super humans.

 

He’s not “the one” that didn’t exist. None of them existed. The con artist bit is the opinion of some atheists, but not all. Most that I know simply believe he never existed in the first place and the current belief system got a major boost through the institutionalization of the Catholic Church in Rome. You do realize that your belief is an offshoot of that first church don’t you? Oh, but maybe you are a Catholic…I haven’t read any of your other stuff, so I don’t know for certain what you are.

 

Such is the lot of those who would be prominent social, political, and religious figureheads. Just ask G.W. I’m sure he’d tell you lots of people think he doesn’t do things right and that they can do a much better job with their all knowing mindsets. The pope might have a word or two to say about it as well. Queen Elizabeth too perhaps? Jesus isn’t special. He’s treated the same as everyone else who would be king.

 

 

I mean, give the guy a break. Seriously. If He did exist, then He was the closest thing to the Messiah yet, and has affected millions of people even up until today. Thats a fact.

 

No, you do not have NEARLY enough information to make this judgment. All you know is that there is ONE COLLECTION of 66 books that TRIES to make a correlation between an individual of GREATLY suspect existence who appears in the first 4 of the 27 so called “New Testament” books and some several hundred vague prophecies in the 39 books of the so called “Old Testament.” You have no evidence whatsoever that the Jesus mentioned in the “New Testament” ever existed as these stories are the only place he is ever mentioned outside a scant few and again HIGHLY suspect external sources.

 

He did not affect millions of people. The church founded on the belief in his existence and eventually upon the belief that he was the son of YAHWEH and was perhaps even YAHWEH in human form has affected millions. The church of Allah has also affected millions. The “church” of Buddhism has affected millions. Hell, Joseph Smith has affected millions and HE we know is an actual historical figure. And THAT is a fact.

 

He has supplied the insight and surroundings, from His teachings; that I truly believe have let America be the mighty country it is today.

 

I know you folks love to believe that the founding fathers were Jesus Freaks too, but sadly (for you and your ilk) they were not. No, this country is far from built on the “solid rock” of Christ Jesus. It is built on the solid rock of individual freedom and that includes the freedom of religion.

 

Ok. Lets flip that and say that most of political, structured America we have today, and our mighty status, has nothing to do with Jesus. Hypothetically speaking for those that would conclude that He had nothing to do with any of the entirity of the influencial level of those that formed and molded America.

 

Hypothetical my ass. That’s precisely how it is.

 

Somebody wake me when this next droning bit is over…

 

So, on the above thought. Again. Why Jesus? Sounds right to me, from the Ot God. The Ot God, though through different aspects fixated on death, was (Biblically) very detailed, directive, and institutional to His people. I was really thinking… blahblahblahblahblah(if you really want to read this again, scroll back to the original post)blahblahblahblahblah …Why didnt God smote them right then?(because he doesn’t EXIST???)[ABAP] When Ezra came along, God had once again gave them a plan, direction, and a leader; whom they where attentive to this time.

 

:yawn:

Is this supposed to mean something?

 

There was a whole bunch of CRAP here that all boiled down to the following [ABAP]

Given all this, wouldn’t it make sense that God sent a Man to reclaim his divinity?

 

:twitch:

 

Well…given that the god of the OT never actually existed… NO IT DOESN’T MAKE A DAMNED LICK OF SENSE WHATSOEVER!!!!

 

Even if he DID exist, why must you constantly place human limitations on your almighty God? If God is God, then God can do what God wants to do. God is not bound by rules. God is not bound by physical, mental, or emotional limitations. The God in your Holy Babble is LIMITED and is therefore no true God.

 

That in all drives me to this question. Is Jesus the true, divinity breaker. Its not Jesus that is important here; its what God wanted to accomplish through Jesus.

 

Wow…the first sensible thing you’ve said. Oh, just the “Its (sic) not Jesus that is important here” part. Then you went right back to babbling. God as you think you know him does not exist. Therefore he does not WANT to accomplish anything through anyone, much less through they myth of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is not important here, you were right on that much. What is important is that your type is not going to stop until you’ve either realized how miserably defrauded you have been by the modern church or until you’ve turned the entire world into Jesus drivel babbling freaks along with you. And I’m not just picking on poor little Jesus here. The fundamentalists of all religions are going to do the same with their brand of drivel.

 

My point is that just like in Samuels, Davids, Moses day; God wants His people to love Him with all their heart mind and soul. They did, yet people still did as they pleased; then God letting them have there ways, let them. Now with Jesus's introduction, there is a different way to the father; other than taking your Son up a mountain to kill him, striking a rock and water spilling out, parting the red sea, being taking up in a whirlwind, miracles being performed.

 

All you have to do is believe on His Son; by the same faith that all these feats and miracles were performed.

 

Wow! You’re the new prophet of God! You know his mind! You assert things that are not spoken of in the Bible! Oh wait…that means you’re a heretic. Sorry YoYo. You’re out on a limb now. Please support your assertion that Jesus’ arrival means there will be no more miracles and that God no longer communicates with those in this world the way he did in OT times with BIBLICAL support. You know, as a Christian, that is your only reliable source of information regarding God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. If you can’t find it there, then it isn’t so.

 

Waiting oh so patiently.

 

ABAP

 

[EDIT]

Sorry, don't know why my quotes didn't work. I deleted the post and resubmitted, but they still are wrong.

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[EDIT]

Sorry, don't know why my quotes didn't work. I deleted the post and resubmitted, but they still are wrong.

You have too many. I think 10 is the limit

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Jesus can't be a jew. His dad is God. And don't prattle about his mum. Unless God is Jewish.

Great point Quickie... why are you sooo smart and handsome? What makes you say that?

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[EDIT]

Sorry, don't know why my quotes didn't work. I deleted the post and resubmitted, but they still are wrong.

You have too many. I think 10 is the limit

 

Thanks Taylor. I'll keep that in mind from now on. :grin:

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Cyrus II IS the Messiah the bible speaks of long before your guy was even being written about. The author of Daniel simply thought Judas Maccabee was going to be the Jewish Messiah. The one to usher in the final age. Unfortunately, Judas died in battle ending his run for glory.

 

Humm :scratch:

 

So, this man is the Holy One of Israel, whos kingdom will be established forever; according to Isaiah. So Cyrus is establishing his kingdom right now? With God? Whom also according to Isaiah, would be his Father, " He will be as a Son unto Me". Just wondering. Is that what the Messiah you are implying.

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After that exercise I can see that the Jewish websites, like this one, do a fairly balanced job of presenting their side unlike the majority of the xian websites.

 

 

In a heartbeat...and I'd love to hear about it. I dislike the religion not the history. :)

 

Actually after my interaction with Jews on their forums, I have discovered that Judaism is not so bad.

 

For starters, they don't think everybody is "dirty sinner who deserves to be punished forever", nor they ever evangelise and shove their religion down our throat. I have to confirm this but I think Judaism takes a Inclusivists approach to other religion, unlike Christianity. Off course for a Jew, the only valid religion is Judaism.

 

heck did you know that Jews have no problem with reincarnation?Something to learn everyday.

 

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewt...p;&start=45

 

Another site to visit is

 

http://p069.ezboard.com/bmessiahtruth

 

They even have nice "ask a Rabbi" section to pose questions.

 

Now when it comes to their yahweh and his action, well....that is a whole different ballgame, and mind you I am not saying that Judaism is perfect, but way way better than Fundamentalist Christianity.

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Cyrus II IS the Messiah the bible speaks of long before your guy was even being written about. The author of Daniel simply thought Judas Maccabee was going to be the Jewish Messiah. The one to usher in the final age. Unfortunately, Judas died in battle ending his run for glory.

 

Humm :scratch:

 

So, this man is the Holy One of Israel, whos kingdom will be established forever; according to Isaiah. So Cyrus is establishing his kingdom right now? With God? Whom also according to Isaiah, would be his Father, " He will be as a Son unto Me". Just wondering. Is that what the Messiah you are implying.

Went about as well good old King Daves legacy now didn't it? All those "everlasting" things that old "god" promised to all those folks in the OT that have been somehow "interrupted" for one reason or another and yet were "everlasting." So I stand by my statement since it is consistant with other everlasting covenants, kingdoms and legacies that god established throughout the OT.

 

I also stand by statement because it is simply a matter of fact that Cyrus II was named the Messiah by the Jews which is my actual point. I believe I already gave you one link where you could check this for yourself. I believe it also gives verse references.

 

I did a search for your quotation but I couldn't locate the phrase "He will be as a Son unto Me" and since I don't actually have the bible memorized I can't comment. So, let me know what you're refering to.

 

mwc

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Humm :scratch:

 

So, this man is the Holy One of Israel, whos kingdom will be established forever; according to Isaiah. So Cyrus is establishing his kingdom right now? With God? Whom also according to Isaiah, would be his Father, " He will be as a Son unto Me". Just wondering. Is that what the Messiah you are implying.

 

Cyrus is thought to be one of the promised messiah by the Jews. It is not set in stone.

 

Check out the following Jewish Forum which discuss Cyrus. You may seek for more clarification there(Don't evangelise, that's all)

 

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1934 (This explain why Jesus cannot be the messiah of Dan 9)

 

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewt...highlight=cyrus

 

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewt...mp;&start=0

 

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewt...highlight=cyrus

 

Hope you read it with a OPEN MIND.

 

Jesus can't be a jew. His dad is God. And don't prattle about his mum. Unless God is Jewish.

 

Actually in Judaism, a person's Jewish identity is defined by his mother. His tribal identity/genealogy is defined by his father.

 

Matrilineal requirement of Judaism

 

So yes, Jesus was Jewish, but he had no tribal identity, so he could not claim the throne of David

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Cyrus is thought to be one of the promised messiah by the Jews. It is not set in stone.

 

Check out the following Jewish Forum which discuss Cyrus. You may seek for more clarification there(Don't evangelise, that's all)

Well, Cyrus is (was?) the messiah, but YoYo does not accept the concept that there is more than one messiah. He is looking for "The One." However, with that approach you have to accept that Cyrus II beat jesus to the punch by hundreds of years. He even did more messiah "stuff" than jesus (since jesus didn't do any).

 

If you get more than one messiah then Cyrus II probably isn't that special "one" but neither is jesus (or any of the other messiah's or the messiah candidates) by the same exact process of elimination.

 

mwc

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Actually after my interaction with Jews on their forums, I have discovered that Judaism is not so bad.

 

For starters, they don't think everybody is "dirty sinner who deserves to be punished forever", nor they ever evangelise and shove their religion down our throat. I have to confirm this but I think Judaism takes a Inclusivists approach to other religion, unlike Christianity. Off course for a Jew, the only valid religion is Judaism.

 

They even have nice "ask a Rabbi" section to pose questions.

Thanks for the links I'll take a look. :)

 

I've only had a couple of fairly minor discussions with Jews but it was surprising how different it was compared to xians. I thought maybe it was just my luck. ;) The concepts of original sin/eternal punishment really screwed over xianity, didn't it?

 

When I first left xianity I considered Judaism but it just seemed so "spooky" and foreign instead of familiar like it should have (supposedly being the "parent" religion of xianity and all) that I didn't pursue it or even knowledge of it until much later.

 

mwc

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I’m sorry you’re not willing to educate yourself beyond the Holy Babble so that you can see it.

 

Its Bible, not Babble; just like Atheist not "Assiest". Just a little respect goes a long way.

 

 

He’s not “the one” that didn’t exist. None of them existed. The con artist bit is the opinion of some atheists, but not all. Most that I know simply believe he never existed

 

:scratch: Humm, so your saying that you believe that any non-fictional God never even existed....... :Doh:

 

current belief system got a major boost through the institutionalization of the Catholic Church in Rome. You do realize that your belief is an offshoot of that first church don’t you? Oh, but maybe you are a Catholic…I haven’t read any of your other stuff, so I don’t know for certain what you are.

 

:eek: I would hope so.

 

No, you do not have NEARLY enough information to make this judgment. All you know is that there is ONE COLLECTION of 66 books that TRIES to make a correlation between an individual of GREATLY suspect existence who appears in the first 4 of the 27 so called “New Testament” books and some several hundred vague prophecies in the 39 books of the so called “Old Testament.” You have no evidence whatsoever that the Jesus mentioned in the “New Testament” ever existed as these stories are the only place he is ever mentioned outside a scant few and again HIGHLY suspect external sources.

 

:wicked: I sense your anger toward the subject of authenticity of Jesus. You never know though Mr. Agnostic Bob Athiest Pants, one day they might discover that the earth is round :scratch:

 

He did not affect millions of people. The church founded on the belief in his existence and eventually upon the belief that he was the son of YAHWEH and was perhaps even YAHWEH in human form has affected millions. The church of Allah has also affected millions. The “church” of Buddhism has affected millions. Hell, Joseph Smith has affected millions and HE we know is an actual historical figure. And THAT is a fact.

 

Correct.

 

I know you folks love to believe that the founding fathers were Jesus Freaks too, but sadly (for you and your ilk) they were not. No, this country is far from built on the “solid rock” of Christ Jesus. It is built on the solid rock of individual freedom and that includes the freedom of religion.

 

Then why would you have to swear in court under God? It is a fact that most of Law in this country's foundation was from the influence of the Bible. Do you have a quarter, Look at it and tell me whats written on it? Is that not enough to know, to conclude that this country is and continues to be influenced by God, also let me add; the God of Israel, and His Son Jesus.

 

 

Well…given that the god of the OT never actually existed… NO IT DOESN’T MAKE A DAMNED LICK OF SENSE WHATSOEVER!!!!

 

 

I’m sorry you’re not willing to educate yourself beyond the Holy Atheilist Agnostical Level of thinking, so that you can see it. :wicked:

 

Even if he DID exist, why must you constantly place human limitations on your almighty God? If God is God, then God can do what God wants to do. God is not bound by rules. God is not bound by physical, mental, or emotional limitations. The God in your Holy Babble is LIMITED and is therefore no true God.

 

So if God is God, then He could have done everything mentioned just like He did, and expect you to see it. You said it, If He is God, then He can want and do whatever He wants.

 

Wow…the first sensible thing you’ve said. Oh, just the “Its (sic) not Jesus that is important here” part. Then you went right back to babbling. God as you think you know him does not exist. Therefore he does not WANT to accomplish anything through anyone, much less through they myth of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is not important here, you were right on that much. What is important is that your type is not going to stop until you’ve either realized how miserably defrauded you have been by the modern church or until you’ve turned the entire world into Jesus drivel babbling freaks along with you. And I’m not just picking on poor little Jesus here. The fundamentalists of all religions are going to do the same with their brand of drivel.

 

 

So, What is your motive of intent with your interaction with me here? As you said;

your type is not going to stop until you’ve either realized how miserably defrauded you have been by the modern church; Sounds like you have another motive. :grin:

 

Wow! You’re the new prophet of God! You know his mind! You assert things that are not spoken of in the Bible! Oh wait…that means you’re a heretic. Sorry YoYo. You’re out on a limb now. Please support your assertion that Jesus’ arrival means there will be no more miracles and that God no longer communicates with those in this world the way he did in OT times with BIBLICAL support. You know, as a Christian, that is your only reliable source of information regarding God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. If you can’t find it there, then it isn’t so.

 

Do you know how many times God, and His choosen leaders in the Ot said that the greatest of the commandments is to love the Lord with all thy heart, mind, and soul? Read up. It is there, and makes very clear sense Biblically. :Doh:

 

 

 

JK

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Then why would you have to swear in court under God? It is a fact that most of Law in this country's foundation was from the influence of the Bible. Do you have a quarter, Look at it and tell me whats written on it? Is that not enough to know, to conclude that this country is and continues to be influenced by God, also let me add; the God of Israel, and His Son Jesus.

Oh please. You can't be that uninformed are you?

 

"The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861." Department of Treasury

 

There are only three things from the bible that are illegal here; slander, murder and theft. And, I think that these things were probably deemed illegal in some society, somewhere, before the bible was ever thought about. It isn't influenced by God at all...it is influenced by people that think that it is influenced by God.

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Do you know how many times God, and His choosen leaders in the Ot said that the greatest of the commandments is to love the Lord with all thy heart, mind, and soul? Read up. It is there, and makes very clear sense Biblically. :Doh:

 

The leaders also said to follow to law completely. So why are you not doing so?

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I sense your anger toward the subject of authenticity of Jesus.

 

:twitch:

 

It's much more frustration than anger. After all, what's to be angry about? Other than the fact that a bunch of lunatics still believe a book of mythology is ultimate truth (literal truth no less) and want to force it down the throats of every living person on the planet? If you just wanted to believe it and keep it to yourselves, we'd all be happy campers. But you don't, and you won't. So pardon me for it sticking in my craw.

 

Then why would you have to swear in court under God? It is a fact that most of Law in this country's foundation was from the influence of the Bible. Do you have a quarter, Look at it and tell me whats written on it? Is that not enough to know, to conclude that this country is and continues to be influenced by God, also let me add; the God of Israel, and His Son Jesus.

 

:close:

 

First, I never said the founding fathers didn't believe in a god, just that they weren't Jesus Freaks like you and the radical right wing fundamentalist moral majority. Jefferson appears to have been deist...which is NOT Christian. He may have believed in a God much like the one in the Judeo Christian Bible but he did NOT believe Jesus was god. He went so far as to REWRITE the New Testament by REMOVING all the miracles in it. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a pretty big sin according to that book of yours...or at least it is when you interpret Revelation 22:18-19 out of context the way so many Christians do.

 

:nono:

 

It is NO fact that the majority of law in this country is based on the bible. The majority of law in this country is based on the pre-existing system of law founded by the Greeks...pagans all. Christian emphasis has eeked its way into the system over the years, but it was NOT the foundation.

 

Second, laying hands on the bible to swear an oath is NOT a Christian invention. It's quite pagan.

 

In early Greek and Roman culture, for example, a legal promise could be made or an oath could be sworn by touching an altar or other object of religious significance.

 

"Coming to Our Senses: Communication and Legal Expression in Performance Cultures"

 

So you see, laying your hand on a religious object to swear an oath has been going on long before our court systems decided to have us swear on the bible. Oh and by the way, your god wouldn't be too happy with you swearing on his holy word...check out James 5:12.

 

NBBTL has already set you straight on the "In God We Trust" on currency issue, so I won't bother rehashing it.

 

Next, no, this country is NOT influenced by your god. This country IS greatly influenced by folks like you that THINK this god exists and want to try to force everyone else into your delusions. It's a sad state of affairs.

 

I’m sorry you’re not willing to educate yourself beyond the Holy Atheilist Agnostical Level of thinking, so that you can see it. :wicked:

 

:ugh:

 

Do you realise where you are? Have you read the name of this site? Have you read ANY of the anti-testimonies here? You certainly haven't read mine. I lost too many good years as a Christian, reading and researching and trying to win the atheist to Christ. Thankfully I finally began to USE the brain that evolution gave me and realised that Christianity was nothing but a crock. Sure, there are some good things about it. It PROFESSES love and acceptance...but underlying it all is hatred and intolerance. There are those that try to make the best of it and keep it from degrading into its baser elements, but it's really not worth it once you've seen it for what it really is. So, YoYo, don't you worry. I've educated myself far beyond atheism. I did my time as a Christian. Far too much time.

 

:Hmm:

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It is a fact that most of Law in this country's foundation was from the influence of the Bible.

I'm sorry Yo-yo but this isn't really true. Of the 10 commandments (the one's most people know), how many are actually laws? The answer is 2 and 1/2. Stealing and Murder are illegal (and indeed, should be in any functional society). Lying is illegal in the sense of purgory (bearing false witness) but lying itself is not illegal.

 

Like it was said before, "In God We Trust" and "one nation under god" are modern inventions...

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It's poor simply because it doesn't say jesus is the Messiah like YoYo wants.

 

Indeed. Jesus cannot be the Messiah of Dan 9 simply because

 

Jesus & The Perfect Fulfillment Of Daniel 9

This particular problem, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple being at least 30 years too late, is fatal to the Christian assertion of perfect fulfillment of Dan 9:24-27 through Jesus.

It simply wrecks the alleged perfection.

In the New Testament, Jesus claimed that he would return within the lifetime of his followers(Matt 16:27-28), and if he actually had returned within 7 years of his death, the prophecy fulfillment might have had a chance for success.

However, Jesus has never returned and the last week, along with the messianic era, is left dangling in the wind.

To get around this, Christians will try to move the 70th week of the prophecy into the future by claiming that God "stopped the clock" after the 69th week and that the 70th week will happen prior to the second coming of Jesus.

They then insert the "tribulation" and an anti-christ into this coming 70th week, which will occur when God starts the clock again. This clock stoppage is now over 1,900 years and still counting.

Christians that do this have turned the 70 consecutive weeks of Dan 9:24-27 into a 69 week prophecy.

Instead of the scriptural timeline:

7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week = 70 weeks

The revised prophectic timeline becomes:

7 weeks + 62 weeks = 69 weeks, followed by a …long, long , PAUSE.…then add 1 more week = 70 weeks.

Unfortunately, Dan 9:24-27 says nothing about stopping the clock for thousands of years to accommodate Jesus or Christian theologians.

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I also like that in the xian translations of the OT that (from what I could find) Daniel 9 is the only place where "annointed" is translated as "messiah." A little "cheat" to help the reader think the right way (kind of how they capitalize certain words that aren't really capitalized when they want people to think of jesus...very subtle brainwashing).

 

Also, historically, the Jews didn't spend 70 weeks in captivity so the passage isn't even accurate. They spent about half to two-thirds that amount of time in Babylon. There are plenty of problems using Daniel as any kind of "prophecy" or "history." Anyone who can't see it relating to Antiochus IV and the Maccabees simply doesn't know that period of history or is willfully ignorant to it. I see Daniel drawing a parallel to the exile and their current situation. He expects Judas Maccabee to be the new Messiah as Cyrus II was the old Messiah except the kingdom of Judas will last forever unlike the one of Cyrus. It just didn't work out that way (so when they created the messiah wish list in jesus they "fixed" some of the failings of Judas...like his lineage and as I recall the patriarch of the Maccabee house Simeon, I think, is the name of the old man in the temple that god promised could live to see the actual messiah).

 

mwc

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Then why would you have to swear in court under God? It is a fact that most of Law in this country's foundation was from the influence of the Bible. Do you have a quarter, Look at it and tell me whats written on it? Is that not enough to know, to conclude that this country is and continues to be influenced by God, also let me add; the God of Israel, and His Son Jesus.

Oh please. You can't be that uninformed are you?

 

"The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861." Department of Treasury

 

There are only three things from the bible that are illegal here; slander, murder and theft. And, I think that these things were probably deemed illegal in some society, somewhere, before the bible was ever thought about. It isn't influenced by God at all...it is influenced by people that think that it is influenced by God.

 

Your trying to put kittens with mountain lions. You cant mix the notion of historical influence of the Bible in general, with the simple perception that this current country, was influenced by the God of Israel, through Christ.

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Do you know how many times God, and His choosen leaders in the Ot said that the greatest of the commandments is to love the Lord with all thy heart, mind, and soul? Read up. It is there, and makes very clear sense Biblically. :Doh:

 

The leaders also said to follow to law completely. So why are you not doing so?

 

last time I checked, as a Gentile; I am only upheld to the Jerusalem Decree, as well as Christs teachings.

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It is NO fact that the majority of law in this country is based on the bible. The majority of law in this country is based on the pre-existing system of law founded by the Greeks...pagans all.

 

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

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Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

 

And how exactly does this show that the majority of law in this country is based on the bible? This shows a politician with a deistic leaning sucking up to the primarily christian constituency. Hell, even Clinton made sure to be seen at church.

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Do you know how many times God, and His choosen leaders in the Ot said that the greatest of the commandments is to love the Lord with all thy heart, mind, and soul? Read up. It is there, and makes very clear sense Biblically. :Doh:

 

The leaders also said to follow to law completely. So why are you not doing so?

 

last time I checked, as a Gentile; I am only upheld to the Jerusalem Decree, as well as Christs teachings.

 

Christ clearly said that the law should be followed completely.

 

If you think you don't have to follow the law, well please tell that to this messianic jew who thinks otherwise

 

http://www.therefinersfire.org/challenging_christianity.htm

 

And when I said leaders, I meant the leaders of the Old Testament.

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Your trying to put kittens with mountain lions. You cant mix the notion of historical influence of the Bible in general, with the simple perception that this current country, was influenced by the God of Israel, through Christ.

:scratch: I wish I understood what you just said here. :scratch:

 

This country was and still is influenced by people that believe the bible. It is also, and was, influenced by Unitarians, Universalists, Diests, etc... Even if they were all Christian, they knew enough to keep it out of government.

 

And I will repeat what I said earler...This county is influenced by people that believe in God, not by God directly. You claim this country "was influenced by the God of Israel, through Christ." Just because people like you believe this, doesn't make it true. All I see are believers of all faiths and non-believers influencing culture.

 

I believe in God...just not your perception of it.

 

Your simple perception of mountain lions is nothing more than kitties roaming all over this country. :grin:

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Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin

"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

Hehehe...just for fun!

 

Benjamin Franklin

 

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

 

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find that few have not in their turn been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves in England and America."

 

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