Are Your Relatives Christian Enough To Kill You?

[roman]

 

Taylork, in the NT Satan is referred to as the "strong man".

 

Please reference where in the NT Satan is referred to as the "strong man."

 

One of the many names for the Essenes was "the strong men." Paul despised the Essenes because they cast him out as a false Messiah. Please study this with your pastor and let us know if anything gets hardened.

[Crunk Bishop]

gotta agree with Taylor,

 

 

the subject of the passages Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are kings on earth. not Satan.

 

Q. If they meant to say "Satan," then why didn't they just call him "Satan?"

 

A. Because "Satan" as the adversary of God is a New Testament concept.

 

The "Satan" that is mentioned in Job and Zechariah is an agent for God, not against... (God's District Attorney) if you read those passages carefully.

 

 

here's my favorite Satan passage in the Hebrew Bible, though:

 

Who inspired David to order a census of Israel? Was it God (2 Samuel 24:1) or Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1)?

 

Which is it? Often the lines between God and "the Devil" are hard to see indeed.

[KT45]

Both of you. Enough. Back to discussion, stop the ad homs.

Are you referencing me, scott or Nick.

 

-EDIT-

Nevermind I just found out what an ad hom is.

[Ouroboros]

Are you referencing me, scott or Nick.

Scott and Nick got into a multi-post argument sequence that I deleted. Now back to the normal programming.

[KT45]

Well, I would say trying to throw God from His thrown is a little on the evil side.

I wanted to get back to this. If there was a god that told his people what they could or couldn't do but then went and did them himself then I see no problem wanting to overthrow god. God is like Saddam Hussen, he threatens people, kills people and tortures people who didn't follow his insane way of thinking.

 

Lets consider the paradise lost story is correct and there was some war in heaven. If I saw a god similar to saddam hussen in power and if I knew I could do better than him I'd overthrow him. Satan was the same way. He was justified. He never killed anyone and he wanted to spread knowledge to humans. God wanted the opposite and wanted to keep humans from knowledge. He is a tyrant worthy of being overthrown

[Scott]

I'm getting interested in why you think God is evil. When did God tell His people to do something, then went and did it Himself?

[KT45]

I'm getting interested in why you think God is evil. When did God tell His people to do something, then went and did it Himself?

I'm confused at your question. It sounds like your asking when did god tell his people to do an act, but then said forget about it I'll do it myself. What does this have to do with me proving god is evil.

 

Maybe you are asking this. When did God tell His people to do something evil, then went and did it Himself. Is this what your asking?

Or maybe u are asking this When did God tell His people NOT to do something evil, then went and did it Himself. Is this what your asking?

[Scott]

Yeah, the second one.

[KT45]

When did God tell His people NOT to do something evil, then went and did it Himself.

God tells his people not to lie

Proverbs 24:28

Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.

 

Then does it himself

1 Kings 22:21-22

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

 

God says he won't tempt people

James 1:13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

 

Then God does it anyway

22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham,

 

I don't think I need to cite sources of God killing his own people but saying it is wrong to kill. There are more but this should answer your question

[Scott]

When did God tell His people NOT to do something evil, then went and did it Himself.

God tells his people not to lie

Proverbs 24:28

Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.

 

Then does it himself

1 Kings 22:21-22

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

 

God says he won't tempt people

James 1:13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

 

Then God does it anyway

22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham,

 

I don't think I need to cite sources of God killing his own people but saying it is wrong to kill. There are more but this should answer your question

 

Thank you for citing those verses. In 1 Kings God tells a spirit to go fourth and lie. He doesn't lie Himself. It's like the time when God will completely release the wicked one on the earth during the Tribulation; He will allow him to lie. In Genesis, the proper translation is "tested". God doesn't tempt anyone to do evil. He "tested" Abraham to see if he really loved Him above all.

[nick5]

He's still a deceiver which is equivalent to a liar. Besides, he doesn't need to test anyone since he supposedly knows everything.

Also, jesus lied. A lot.

Of course, he also allows people to kill and be tortured, even though he has the power to stop it. So what is he did a few good things. I'm sure Hitler did too, that doesn't excuse the bad things.

[KT45]

In 1 Kings God tells a spirit to go fourth and lie. He doesn't lie Himself.

If god sends a lying spirit he has the intent of decieving. Someone who tries to decieve someone is a liar. If a king sent a representative to purposefully lie knowing that he sent his representative to lie HE IS A LIAR for trying to decieve people. Here is some more

 

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet,

 

Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived

 

And guess what? There is a lot more!!! God is a liar. It doesn't say he ALLOWS them to believe a lie. THEY SAY THE LORD DECIEVES POEPLE, OR HE LIES!!! Don't change the meaning of the verses so your god won't be a liar.

 

In Genesis, the proper translation is "tested". God doesn't tempt anyone to do evil. He "tested" Abraham to see if he really loved Him above all.

You can't pick which bible translation is best. If you feel that the KJV of the bible is mistranslated then all the books should be burned because they are decieiving people by using a false translation. So yes the bible says he tempted him and that what it SAYS.

 

In 2 Samuel 24 God tempted David to do evil by telling him to do a census because God was angry for some reason. After David does it god makes him choose between 3 punishsments because David did what God told him to do. He tempted David to do something he felt was worthy of punishment. He tempted him to do something he felt was wrong. He is a Temptor.

[Ouroboros]

[/b]Thank you for citing those verses. In 1 Kings God tells a spirit to go fourth and lie. He doesn't lie Himself. It's like the time when God will completely release the wicked one on the earth during the Tribulation; He will allow him to lie. In Genesis, the proper translation is "tested". God doesn't tempt anyone to do evil. He "tested" Abraham to see if he really loved Him above all.

When a mob boss sends his thugs to kill someone, the boss can be charged on conspiracy to murder. Do you agree or disagree to such a justice system?

[Eponymic]

When a mob boss sends his thugs to kill someone, the boss can be charged on conspiracy to murder. Do you agree or disagree to such a justice system?

 

Great analogy.

[Ouroboros]

Great analogy.

I got a couple more.

 

Let's think about the argument that "God is just" and that we, somehow, deserve to get punished for eternity. We supposedly have committed a crime, and we'll be sent to our punishment. Now here's the interesting part, the reason why Christians avoid getting the punishment is because they know the Son of the Judge. That would not fly very well in reality. That is a corrupt judge and corrupt justice. No one gets off their penalty only because they have befriended the judges family...

 

--edit--

 

Lets say that the Son of the Judge took the penalty instead of the criminals. It doesn't solve anything, because there are more problems, one is that this son is not serving the sentence anymore, but is restored to his previous life, secondly he only took the penalty for his favorites, still this would not work well in the court of law.

[Scarlett]

Yeah, I do believe they would if they seriously thought their god was telling them to kill me.

[Turgonian]

I don't know what that verse about God being a lying spirit means, but I don't think it means what it sounds like. We can't just take things at face value, we need to study to see if it means what it sounds like. God cannot lie. That is a breaking of the ten commandments and that is sin. God cannot be evil. He cannot go against Himself. Satan went against God. That is evil in itself. And as I said, he does evil things all the time.

So what constitutes a person that is evil? Wouldn't it be a person that intentionally causes evil to happen to other people?

 

The Bible do have a verse that say that God is behind evil, read Jeremiah. Half of the verses about "evil" in there is how Israel is Evil, and that God will bring Evil upon them. How can God bring Evil upon them, if the Devil is the one being Evil? Is the Devil under God's command? According to Job he is, right? So according to the Bible, God is a egomanical King that rules with hard hands, and even uses the Devil to punish the people. I'd say God is at fault for the evil just as much as the Devil, since the Devil isn't working by himself, but from God's commands.

 

(just a few verses)

Jer 16:10

And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?

 

Jer 19:3

And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

 

Jer 19:15

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

Go through this list, and this is only Jeremiah, I saw more in other books: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew...amp;version=kjv

 

God is warning to use his words to command evil over the Israelites:

Jer 39:16

Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be accomplished in that day before thee.

This comes from using the KJV... 'Evil' in this sense means 'disaster, calamity', not moral evil. And there may be morally compelling reasons to allow evil (= calamity) to come to other persons.

Some people complain about God not doing anything against the wickedness in this world. And when He does punish the wicked, they call Him cruel...

 

By the way, I didn't reply to the poll. I missed the option 'The whole Great Tribulation scenario is nice to read but in all probability won't match the facts'.

[Dhampir]

'Evil' in this sense means 'disaster, calamity', not moral evil.

show me.

[Turgonian]

Evil from the Good?

 

Is God the source of evil, according to these passages? In the first four verses, the word "evil" is ra. This word does indicate moral evil elsewhere. But there are meanings offered in Strong's for this word like "adversity" and words of similar nature. Ra can therefore be used in both senses.

 

Now with this in mind, how do we determine the proper translation of ra in this case? The answer is simple, once we consider the literary parallel in the verse in question. Note the antithesis in the first part of the verse from Isaiah: light/darkness. The second part of the verse must also be therefore reckoned as an antithesis. The word we translate "prosperity" is a familiar one: shalom. We commonly translate this word "peace" - but it is NEVER used to indicate moral goodness, the antithesis of moral evil! We must therefore translate "ra" in terms of its specified antithesis, and that is why it is thoroughly proper to give it the meaning of calamity/disaster/adversity here. (Presumably skeptics would "argue by outrage" and say that God has no right to cause us adversity. For more on this, see Glenn Miller's article on this verse.) The verse from Amos offers a similar parallel, to the blowing of a trumpet -- a sign of calamitous judgment, not moral evil. The same is the case for Lamentations, where ra is placed in opposition to a word that means "beauty" or "bounty" or joy, and the verse after which asks, "Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?" The verse prior in Jeremiah ("If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.") uses the same word for "good" in opposition.

[SkepticOfBible]

Evil from the Good?

Is God the source of evil, according to these passages? In the first four verses, the word "evil" is ra. This word does indicate moral evil elsewhere. But there are meanings offered in Strong's for this word like "adversity" and words of similar nature. Ra can therefore be used in both senses.

Too bad Jews who speak fluent hebrew translate those verses with the words Evil in them

 

Judaica Press Complete Tanach

Isaiah 45:7

7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

 

Jewish Publication Society

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am HaShem, that doeth all these things.

 

So the question is, is Christian Theology influencing the translation or is it the translation influencing the theology?

 

Outreach Judaism - Who Is Satan?

 

Because the Hebrew scriptures explicitly declare that the Almighty Himself places both the good and the evil that He created before mankind in order to provide His prime creation with free will.

.......

For the Jewish faith, Satan's purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

.........

Satan is one of the many angels mentioned in the Bible. It is worth noting that the Hebrew word for angel is malach, meaning "messenger." The same is true for the English word angel, derived from the Greek word angelos, which also means "messenger." Throughout the Bible, an angel is a messenger of God who carries out the divine will of the Almighty. There is not one example in the Jewish scriptures where any angel, Satan included, opposes God's will.

 

While in Christian terms Job's personal spiritual triumph is a theological impossibility, in Jewish terms it stands out as the embodiment of God's salvation program for mankind. In Deuteronomy 30:15, the Torah attests to this principle and in Isaiah 45:7, the prophet echoes this message when he declares that the Almighty Himself creates evil.

 

This biblical principle, however, was apparently too problematic for the Christian translators of the NIV Bible (New International Version). They clearly recognized that a Bible which asserts that God creates evil calls into question one of Christendom's most cherished teachings on salvation. How can the church insist that man is totally depraved when his God placed him in a world where he is free to choose good over evil? How can the church hold to a doctrine of election or predestination when free will is man's to express? How can Christians maintain that God did not create evil when the Jewish scriptures clearly state otherwise?

 

Understandably, the NIV translators saw fit to alter the prophet's words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word rah as "disaster" instead of correctly translating it as "bad" or "evil." The NIV Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read,

 

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

 

The word "disaster" inserted by the NIV is so ambiguous that the uninformed reader would easily come to the conclusion that it refers to such things as earthquakes and hurricanes. This skewed understanding created by the NIV mistranslation effectively conceals Isaiah's original message. As mentioned above, the KJV (King James Version) does correctly translate this verse and render the Hebrew word rah as "evil."

[willybilly30]

My dad would probally be beside me, my uncle and probally alot of other people.

I'm sure my mom would make it to heaven but she'd be back beside me cause she'd never kill me and I'm assuming god damns the ones who refuse.

If i'm not mistaken I haven't read revelations in awhile the people who refuse the mark can't get food and spend money. and all the people god created knowing they'd be evil sends them to hell.

Oh what a loving god scott what a loving god true forgiveness is burning people in hell over something their ancestors adam and eve done winch was no suprise to god who put the damn tree there to begin with. This topics old so i'm not sure if scotts still here but if you are i'd like to see how you can get a good god idea out of that. Lets say I had a kid and put out a bowl of candy and said don't eat it (I know they will cause I know how kids are) so I whip them their grandkids and all future generations cause my kid ate my candy. How dumb.

[Johnmilton]

Hi everybody.

 

First I'd like to share in regards to the original purpose of this thread, before it was detailed by "Scott." I was lucky enough to be born into a secular family. In fact my extended family is all secular... not a fundamentalist among us. So I selected "other" as this is a non-issue (thankfully!) for me.

 

I've read this entire thread and noted Paradise Lost has been mentioned twice now. Paradise Lost is an epic poem (like The Illiad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, and later, The Faerie Queene) extrapolating on the Christian Bible. The narrative begins in hell with Lucifer, now Satan, chained to a molten swamp-like flat in a cavernous dimension, along with his army who lost to God in heaven and were subsequently banished to this new place outside the realm of the controlled universe. (Interestingly enough, this realm is beyond the state of chaos, which is actually a physical place much like our idea of space [in Milton's time it was called the ether] and Satan ultimately leaves hell and journeys through chaos to find the newly created Earth, which is tethered to the realm of heaven by a golden chain and guarded by angels.)

 

The first two books in Paradise Lost are told from Satan's point of view as he rallies and manipulates his troops into believing they are now a democracy and free from the tyranny they were fighting in heaven. In actuallity, Satan manipulates his top lieutenant to use Rovian style politics to trick his army into choosing him to venture beyond hell and corrupt the new realm of Man to get revenge on God.

 

Outside of hell Satan meets Sin and Death, who are portrayed as physical entities whose noncorporeal selves trail him through chaos and wait to infect Man after the fall. This explains why sin and death entered our world... Milton is using apologetics to explain one of the biggest contradictions in the Bible by suggesting that Satan created these entities himself, through no direct action of God. Also, very interestingly, the first female entity in existence, according to Milton's epic, is the hot, seductive angel who ultimately became Sin... she was raped by Satan and the bastard that was conceived became this amorphous blob called Death. Angels are essentially asexual, before the enigmatic Sin hit the scene... if you've seen Dogma or even the Keanu Reeves Constantine you know what I mean.

 

The third book (or chapter) in Paradise Lost pulls away from Satan as he leaves hell and makes the long journey through chaos and we now enter heaven. Because Milton is describing as what he describes as impossible for humans to understand and comprehend, he invokes the muse again to allow him to attempt to relay what's going on in terms we can understand. Lot of interesting stuff here... the idea of God seeing the past, present, and future all in one like a quilt, knowing how Satan will corrupt mankind and actually being pissed about it, but resolving not to do anything as he created man with free will... (giving us the capacity to resist something we all now know really wasn't such a hot idea... eating the apple). Then the entity that is Jesus volunteers to correct this wrong by coming to earth later as a man and "transplanting" humankind from a fallen state back to an immaculate one through his sacrifice... what I found amazing here and what led to my conversion was the idea of two root systems... one being corrupt and the offspring of this original root all being tainted, and correcting this problem by transcending time itself to begin with a new root... i.e. Christ.

 

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_r...k_3/index.shtml

 

You can find the entire text of Paradise Lost book 3 here, as well as the entire epic on this site.

 

I found it much easier reading than the Bible... actually made sense and had no contradictions!

 

Anyone who finds "peace" within the pages of the Bible and/or considers its "teachings" worthwhile to our society today is either a liar (they're not reading it) or sociopathic or delusional.

 

Now for our two resident Jihadist Scott... try reading something other than the goddamn KJV. Your posts are ludicrous and silly. By God, you're not even playing good apologetics... you make so-called good Christians look bad.

 

Regardless, I thank you for posting and exposing what a fraud all of this crap is, and I thank everyone else for regulating this pathetic little bully.

 

It's pointless to argue with a suicide bomber. And it's even more pointless to debate moron fundamentalists over the Internet.

 

I just hope I can get a few people interested in Paradise Lost

[Johnmilton]

I found it much easier reading than the Bible... actually made sense and had no contradictions!

 

Well, I am biased on the subject, and in all fairness... there are a lot of problems... i.e. where the hell did the angel Sin come from and how was she NOT God's doing?

 

But like I said... less contradictions than the Bible

[MeiPassion]

I'm reading Paradise Lost right now. Interesting read.

[sanaslove]

I've been reading these forums for a short while but this is my first post. Hi guys.

 

My sister is so sadly messed up that she would kill me. She can't even handle an innocent joke concerning a man in a dress, she will go on and on how that individual is 'sick'.

So, I voted that way.

 

My mom on the other hand, well, she loves me but in -that- insane situation, she might let someone else do it for fear of god's wraith.