Ex-christian.net Member Claims Gay-bashing "insignificant"

[HuaiDan]

Now, I understand in posting this I might piss some people off. Believe it or not, this is not my intent and I took the requisite 15 minutes before posting this that said, here we go:

 

I will tell you quite frankly that everyone has opinions and everyone has a right to them, even if those opinions are “wrong”, “bad”, “insensitive”, “whatever.”

 

When people get in a big parade and yell things like "I"m here, I'm queer, get used to it." They just further alienate anyone who might not understand them. They aren't winning anyone to their side, or making anyone understand them. They are just pissing people off by INSISTING that everyone accept them. Acceptance cannot be insisted upon. No one has to accept anybody for any reason.

 

People can dislike you because you are gay, or straight or have blonde hair or like leonardo dicaprio (not you, just I hear, some people like him). People can dislike you for any reason they want...whether it's ignorant or not. I find usually when someone doesn't like a person, if that person falls into a minority group it conveniently becomes about discrimination, when really the person was an annoying asshole. (and yes, I understand there are people who run around yelling “faggot” and inciting violence, but these people are NOT the majority and I get tired of anyone who ever questions the wisdom of any public action any gay person does, being put into a category with that person. Not everybody likes MY sexuality but I'm not starting a big “accept the whips and chains lifestyle” parade. (which there are whole websites devoted to my sexuality as an orientation and genetic...believe it or not...but i'm not insisting everybody accept me. ) Some people actively try to make laws against what I want to do consensually in my own bedroom. Do I care? Nope. They aren't invited into my bedroom.

 

Often if I don't like a black person I "MUST" be a racist, cause I live in the south, and the INDIVIDUAL couldn't POSSIBLY be an asshole, it has to be because they are black and I am white. If I find a particular man an asshole, I must be a man hating lesbian. If I don't like a person who is gay, I must hate homosexuals.

 

While often people ARE ignorant and retarded and stereotype you, people will stereotype you no matter what. Whatever group you are in, whether it's orientation, race or even something you can more readily control like your choice of profession or religion, SOMEONE is going to stereotype you and not associate with you because of it. Why waste time trying to change those people? You won't. By being so “in your face” to anyone who dares dislike you for valid or invalid reasons, all you do is push those people farther, as well as piss off those who might have been sympathetic to you before.

 

It is completely unfair to lump someone who is stating an honest opinion with no ill will towards you, (duderonomy in the other thread) with the violence mongers (as per your long diatribe and sources on this thread.) As if you are even speaking about the same types of people, you aren't. What you WANT...is for everyone to like you and approve of who you are...and that will never happen, not because of sexual orientation, but because of human nature. People will ALWAYS alienate those not like them. We do it here on this very board. If a christian comes here, the insults start to fly...even if that person wasn't overly hostile or acerbic. A christian on here has to bend over backwards and practically deny their faith for people NOT to jump on them like a rabid dog.

 

As long as you take every wrong done to every gay person upon yourself personally, as long as you make THEIR victimhood YOURS, you will be oppressed. If you live in an area where you cannot openly be who you are, then move somewhere else. Don't expect “laws” to protect you or a parade to change human nature. It's easier to change your own circumstances, then the minds and hearts of everyone around you, also a side benefit, it's less likely to produce that pesky martyrdom.

 

As an aside, one of my good friends helps run a coffee shop and is a lesbian. She's out of the closet and lives in a fundie christian town, and yet she is rarely in any way discriminated against, oppressed or persecuted. Why is that I wonder? It could possibly be, that she doesn't have a victim mentality. She doesn't project her insecurities and fears onto other people. She doesn't give a fuck what people think. She chooses to surround herself with those supportive of who she is, as opposed to baiting the attentions of those not like her. She doesn't make a big “show” of her sexuality in groups of people she KNOWS will not support who she is.

 

You may think such a thing is unfair and she shouldn't have to be that way...but there truly is a time and a place for everything and not EVERYBODY believes being gay is genetic. Those people may be ignorant, but the majority of them truly don't mean any harm to you. It's not fair to expect everyone to change their entire belief structure just to make you more personally comfortable. That's just not how the world works. The world is run by the majority. The fact that there is legislation at all, to protect homosexuals shows that the majority is at least supportive. If they weren't, no one would be out of the closet.

 

When choosing to be public about who you are, and totally baldly, nakedly honest about yourself, you have to determine WHY you are doing that. Are you doing it, so you can weed out people who wont' accept you as you are, and find those who WILL, or are you doing it as some sort of political statement, so that when someone doesn't like you or what you are doing you can say: “See? That asshole? I'm oppressed. Goddammit there need to be more laws to protect me.” Because that, IMO is the wrong reason to be “out” about who you are. If you're just doing it so you can lay in wait to pounce on someone who shows the slightest discomfort with it...well that's a problem for people.

 

I'm going to end this very long post with one question: “Are you free?” Or have you spent your life fighting for everybody else, fighting for laws and systems, trying to change the hearts and minds of everyone around you, until your opportunity to just be free slipped past you? Did you imagine there would be some day when you were done fighting and you could bask in the glow of a changed world?

 

Thanks, Zoe.

I know you probably weren't intending to take my side in this issue, but I couldn't have said it better myself. I was just trying to take it from a satirical angle. As far as absolute figures go, lightning should be more of a social concern than gay bashing. But, due to the willful nature of gay-bashing and the illusion that we can change people's behavior, we spend more time condemning it than we do of thinking of practical solutions. I think I'm finished with this.

 

QUOTE(rrcanna @ Aug 8 2006, 08:32 PM) *

 

Zoe Grace:

 

Legislators respond to only two things:

 

1. Money

 

2. Large, unified blocs of voters

 

That is all.

 

Do gay people have a chance with Republicans? No.

 

Do gay people have a chance with Third Parties? Yes, but they have no power and will never have power.

 

Do gay people have a chance with Democrats? Yes.

 

Bodhisattva can see chance everywhere

 

Becoming a Bodhisattva is a huge step in helping not only yourself, but also every other sentient being, both seen and unseen

 

Bodhisattva is infinite understanding

 

 

 

If I were gay, would I be right to demand those around me not "act straight," whatever that means?

 

PDA is frowned upon in most circles. the heterosexual variety, of course, is more accepted, simply because most people are heterosexual and are simply more comfortable. But bring on the tongue sucking, groping, exposure or whatever, and many people start getting uncomfortable, whether it's heterosexual or not.

[BlueGiant]

There is a difference between PDA (i.e.tonsil-hockey) and something like holding hands.

 

When I have a boyfriend, I am pretty constantly worried about getting jumped while in public, (ok, paranoid), well more so than usual, as there is a greater acceptance of whomping on sexual minorities, all legality asside. That and while I may be able to take care of myself, I don't want someone I care about getting hurt (cowardly bad-actors will go after the easier target, guess they do have a brain cell or two). Don't have that problem with a girlfriend. Acceptance may not be required, but if people are going to co-exist, not being a tool is.

 

Is everyone critical of the LGBT crowd a biggot? Fuck, no! There are a lot of valid critiques of the uber-activists, and, well, they're people, and some just aren't worth the oxygen they're breathing, just like any other group, while others are good peoples. I think I see what you were getting at HD.

 

And as far as political parties go, sure, the Dems could help LGBT causes if they weren't just peddling empty promises for votes, and if any of them actually had a spine. Just as bad as the Repubs. It pays to know that everyone on the Hill is just out for themselves in the end. If you are going to rely on politicians to make anything better, you are sorely, fucking, mistaken.

 

The one good thing is that politicians will screw everyone over, so, in a way, things equalize, too bad they can't get an STD from the way they screw.

[RankStranger]

...and does nothing to advance said 'cause'.

[♦ nivek ♦]

"First Amendment", someone got a problem with it?

 

kFuckingL

[RankStranger]

...and does nothing to advance said 'cause'.

Some of the things that I know, today, were immediately rejected by me when I first heard them, most of those rejections being made by my younger self, who at that time knew everything.

 

These days I know a lot less, and it shows, doesn't it?

 

I feel exactly the same way... and I'm only 29. I reckon I'll be completely clueless by the time I'm 64.

 

I wouldn't have made the same arguement that HuiDan made... but his post was a LONG way from hateful. Seems like after 6 decades you would've learned that critical does not equal hateful, and differing from YOU does not equal 'wrong'.

[woodsmoke]

Personally, I agree with every word you just wrote Zoe.

 

I can't really say this in a way that will guarantee no offense is taken, but honestly? You come off as quite the condescending asshole sometimes, R. Understand, I'm not saying that's all you are, and Bard knows I've possibly the least legitimacy of anyone to point the finger at someone else for being an asshole (except Assy, but we all know he's just a stupid canuck ), but that's the impression you seem to give in the discussions you participate in wherein someone disagrees with you. I'm seeing the same kind of behavior in this thread that I saw in the first one we butted heads in--and while I was wrong to jump into the middle of that particular shit-storm, I think in this case you're wildly overreacting to a shadow that isn't there.

 

In conjunction with the conclusion of Duder's latest post in the unhijackable thread, we already have parents. We don't need someone to act as 'net nanny for us.

[dr_funkenstein]

Homosexuals should carry guns. That would solve the problem.

[woodsmoke]

"Good! That way, we'll all be blind and toothless!"

 

[dr_funkenstein]

Homosexuals should carry guns. That would solve the problem.

That's a great idea, and I'm going to bring it up at the next meeting of the Gay Agenda.

 

Awesome! Hey we should get the Atheist Agenda and the Gay Agenda together and kick those gay-bashing cowards asses! Hell, we could even take over the world!

[woodsmoke]

I don't know, I don't think the jews would like that much. After all, they're supposedly the current rulers of the world, and have been since nearly prehistoric times.

[♦ nivek ♦]

RR...

 

The only thing I'm hearing out of your posts is a strident call for Political Correctness to be applied to whatever speech happens here.

 

If it does not toe the "RR line of acceptable use and direction", it is wrong, and obviously the product of a weakened mind.

 

Don't know what you want out of ExC. Not sure why the tantrum about *homosexuals* and the various knocks and beatings of our users over things you are imagining are problems.

 

Want to solve ALL the worlds problems RR?

 

Help build the "Bill of Rights Culture".

 

I've been politically active for just a fraction of your life so far, however my twenty-five years in the trenches has left me a fine appreciation of those who actually are part of the 10 fucking percent who do.

 

Not sure quite what you want, but trying to drown out me with blather and PC doesn't work on the mean_old_man.

 

kFL

[woodsmoke]

Do I want you to leave? After a post like that? Are you crazy? Who else would come up with something like allying the Celtic descendants with the Gay Atheists with Guns to overthrow Jewish domination of the world?

 

That's some high-quality bullshit!

 

Seriously, like Zoe, I have no problem with you personally. You can ask all the other regulars here, I can be quite the condescending asshole myself at times. There's a reason I chose the title I did. I'm just "callin' 'em as I see 'em." For all I know, I could be going through the opening act of a repeat performance of my earlier blunder; certainly wouldn't be the first time I've stepped in the same 'pie twice.

 

I wouldn't dream of claiming that I'm always right or that I know everything, nor would I want to. If that were the case, I wouldn't have any more opportunities to learn, which strikes me as an indescribably dreadful state of being. I'm not trying to call you out, just trying to make my own way through various mine fields without setting off too many detonation triggers.

 

'Sides, if worse comes to worst we can always agree I'm just a know-it-all brat kid and you're an impossible, cantankerous old man and argue our hearts out from there.

[dr_funkenstein]

I don't know, I don't think the jews would like that much. After all, they're supposedly the current rulers of the world, and have been since nearly prehistoric times.

Yes, but they hire Gentiles sometimes. That is...Doc, are you Jewish? *checks penis* I'm not.

 

And what about my ancestors the Celts who kicked Rome's ass in the 4th or 5th Century CE? Eventually, of course, they were wiped out. But nobody else ever kicked Rome's ass in Rome. Now the Celts, though Pagan and not Atheist, and though some of them were not Gay (although they did fight naked), would certainly join up with Gay Atheists With Guns if they could.

 

By the way, do you want this condescending asshole to leave the forum? Because if that's what you want, that's what I will do. The Web has many forums.

 

How about the rest of you? I will leave, with no hard words and no hard feelings, if that's what you want. Of course, if you do want me to go, that will prove my earlier allegation that this forum, like all the others, is just a club, just a clique, of fake friends "yessing" each other and conforming just as hard as highschool kids all do. It's up to you. I don't give a shit.

 

Nope - not Jewish. Though I am Australian, so I could always become staunchly anti-semitic like my countryman Mel Gibson

 

Anyway I hate arguments about the nature of arguing and whether there should be any arguments about how we argue. Everybody lighten up. If you wanna be condescending - be condescending. If people get offended - let them be offended. If people say things that go against what you believe - argue the point. Make personal insults. I don't give a shit. But don't let's all have a cry because we disagree on something.

[woodsmoke]

'Fraid I have to disagree with you there. There (unfortunately) comes a time when there's really nothing important to argue about, so one must create some bullshit argument such as how properly to argue. It may not be pretty, but considering the alternative... (no argument at all? What the hell kind of fun is that? )

[Asimov]

Gay-bashing, on the other hand, is a choice made by human beings, human beings who perceive themselves to be in the majority and therefore approved by society at large. These human beings are subject to law. Quite the opposite of lightning, their actions are immoral and criminal.

 

Hm....it is, but I don't see how it's any worse than any other violent act.

 

What the fuck?

< http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...1604&st=380 >, page 20, comment by HuaiDan

 

So I assumed...but honestly, why the focus?

[HuaiDan]

How does hatefulness cease to be hateful when it is couched in flippancy?

When it wasn't hateful to begin with. Just flippant. But I couldn't resist at the time...

[Ladyfractal]

Zoe:

 

You make some very valid points in your post. I was initially going to quote you at length but decided to take another tact.

 

There was one thing you said that I disagree with and I want to take that on first and then go on to give my perspective. When you talk about Gay Pride marches, you are presuming that they are meant for you. They aren't. They are meant for us. While it is true that, for instance, the SF Pride march gets national attention that is, in no small part, because it is the second largest public gathering in the state of California--the first being the Rose Parade. Gay Pride SF is a *major* public event. The Dyke March, which happens the night before the Big Event on Sunday had 100,000 women in it. That's a respectable sized town. Typical crowds at SF Pride run around 750,000 people. You get that many folks together, you are going to make news. Now, the 'we're here, we're queer, get used to it' is a 15 year old slogan, shouted by my generation (I am 40) of queer activists. The Gay Pride celebrations of the last five years have changed in character and those of us who (RR I am speaking for my generation, I will let you speak for yours--and thank you, btw. for paving the way) were Queer Nation or ACTUP or Lesbian Avengers members during the early Clinton years had a *reason* for this. We were saying we weren't going away, we weren't going to be invisible any longer, we weren't going to apologize for breathing oxygen and we were not going to be ashamed of ourselves any longer.

 

While I understand the point you were making by saying that this just alienates people, the same things were said about my parent's movement--which was the civil rights movement in the South during the 50's and 60's. Almost word-for-word, it was said that if they just didn't march and make trouble things would be fine. And they would've been--for the people made uncomfortable by having to watch the unpleasant sight of cops sicking dogs on peaceful protesters. But had that movement not happened is there anyone here who believes that we would be where we are today?

 

Which brings up the parts where I, somewhat, agree with what you are saying. Some of this is going to offend those of you who are straight and, because I'm also going to talk about race in the same way (because I was dealing with being a racial minority longer than being a sexual minority) are white. What apologies I make, I do so now.

 

RR, there is nothing that you, I or anyone else can do to get folks who have no vested interest in the matter to see the point. If I have learned nothing else in almost two decades of being out, a decade of which I was an activist, it is that. We can bring up the points, we can make sure our statistics are in order, we can make certain that our explanations are clear, relatively concise, passionate but otherwise free of emotion and that our logic is unassailable--and we should do ALL of those things. However, at the end of the day either someone will see it or they will not. If they don't, they don't, the only thing we can do is move on. Now, I doubt that there is anyone here who thinks that gays and lesbians should be bashed, or lose their jobs, or what-have-you and that is probably the best of all possible worlds we can have legal issues not-with-standing. By that I mean that, ironically, the culture is out in front of the law on this issue while with race it was largely the opposite. The laws changed and then the culture changed. There are some legal issues to finish up but at this juncture, the fact that there are folks who rail against 'PC' who take positions that are, in fact, PC is about as good as we can ask for. (And if you believe that homosexuals should not be fired because we are queer, then you are taking a stance that is PC. If you believe that homosexuals shouldn't lose custody of their children or be disallowed from adoption for no more sufficient reason than their sexual orientation, you are taking a position that is PC. Just so you know.) But should we expect HD or Dude or any other heterosexual person to *care* if it's one gay person or a thousand gay people who get assaulted every year? Nope, we shouldn't. We can wish that they would, but we shouldn't expect them to and it is a complete waste of calories to try to get them to. It's not their problem, they have no dog in this fight and until they do--until it's their kid, their friend, their sister, their dad, they won't.

 

Which leads to the next issue. Should we expect sensitivity in a forum like this? No. Civility? Yes, that is reasonable but I learned a long time ago that there is a certain level of stupid crap I should expect to flow out of someone's mouth or from their keyboard. At the time I hear or read it, I can evaluate it and see if it's worth my energy to engage and if that person is reachable. About two-thirds of the time it isn't because they aren't. When I responded to Dude, I didn't think I was going to convince him of anything--what I was doing was communicating to the larger group here that, in fact, the issue is not quite so simplistic. So what do I mean by a difference between sensitivity and civility? I expect that no one here will use the "N" word. But I don't expect anyone here who isn't black to give a fat rat's ass if I get upset if someone does. I would expect, in fact, that at least one poster would say something along the lines of "why are you letting that upset you".

 

Now, does that make the person a racist? Nope. Does it make that person a racist? Not necessarily. But that doesn't mean that I expect that person to understand.

 

Cheers

Aj

[BlueGiant]

 

...snippage for sanity's sake.

 

I disagree. I believe that his post was far worse than hateful. It was flippant and smart-assed, meant to impress the youngsters here who are easily impressed by such bullshit. It was meant to marginalize the oppression of a minority, and it was meant to marginalize violence and murder. It was also made by a person who doesn't even live in this country. It also stated that a natural power, lightning, was a SOCIAL issue, equivalent to gay-bashing. How does hatefulness cease to be hateful when it is couched in flippancy?

 

 

I can't believe you just pulled out the "impressionable youngsters" bullshit. And yes, I'll definatley call you on that as a whole steaming pile of bullshit. They are so impressionable and so succeptable to social pressures that they come in contact with, and, yet, there are quite a few here after bucking a system that is implemented by a large amount of peer and authoritarian pressure. And it is the same lack-of-logic that has been used to attempt to silence minorities, especially sexual minorities, for the last few decades, as well as denying them access to their rights as human beings. Then again, it is an effective weapon, why not use it as well, after all if opressors use it...

 

Hatefulness ceases to be hatefulness when it is done to get someone's goat and poke fun at things that are often blown out of proportion and have the general result of only making people paranoid. Then it is getting a person to look at themselves and realize what they are saying.

 

And I'll also admit, I find violence quite funny, and you do, too, I bet. You telling me you don't enjoy the Three Stooges, or Wile E. Coyote being taunted by a sadistic bird as he blows himself up with enough TNT to take out NORAD? And you've never laughed at the Darwin Awards?

[LosingMyReligion]

What is additionally puzzling for me at this site, is the fact that everyone here claims to be Ex-Christian, but some of them retain certain Christian attitudes, especially concerning gay people. I think they just don't recognize all the baggage they're still carrying around. This is only true of a few people, but you can see it clearly if you have eyes to see.

 

 

Haha, I know exactly the type of people you are referring to(and I won't name any names). I don't even say anything to them just to avoid the whole "freedom of speech" and "not everyone has to agree" debates.

I think an ex-christian homophobe is just as bad as a Christian one. Only the ex-christian doesn't believe he or she has a god to answer to for their hatred, so they base it on Darwin's Theory of evolution OR they just regurgitate all the bullshit they've learned from Christianity. Hell, some people don't even know WHY they hate gay people. They just hate based on general principle. The whole, "well, everyone else does so I should too!" And sadly, there are some people who chat on this very website that stupid. However, they are far and few between. This website, overwhelmingly, is gay accepting.

I think: racists, homophobes, and sexists suck be they Christian or athiest(and everything in between).

 

For what it's worth, some of my young students ended up being very bigoted on this one issue, and they're American racial minorities! You'd think someone in a racial minority (in the USA context) would be more cognizant of this sort of thing, but I guess not.

 

Both of these (not very attractive) boys were utterly, utterly paranoid that some gay guy was going to look at them. I let them know in uncertain terms that many gay men are incredibly picky about who they choose.

 

Eventually we got to the point where they were just able to say "I don't want them to be gay around me," rather than "I hate them!"

 

-Seth

 

 

lol. I think it is so cool that you called your students unattractive...lol

 

Anyway, African Americans are notoriously homophobic...read my above comment. That pretty much is the sentiment of 88% of the black community.

[woodsmoke]

I am NOT impossible.

 

You see? I knew we could find some common ground to fight about.

 

[Ladyfractal]

 

How about the rest of you? I will leave, with no hard words and no hard feelings, if that's what you want. Of course, if you do want me to go, that will prove my earlier allegation that this forum, like all the others, is just a club, just a clique, of fake friends "yessing" each other and conforming just as hard as highschool kids all do. It's up to you. I don't give a shit.

 

What you will do is, ultimately, up to you. FWIW, I think it would be a shame for you to leave. But, of course, that's a choice only you can make.

 

Cheers

lf

[Ladyfractal]

Because at the end of the day, and this may seem selfish, but I'm a firm believer that it is better to be honestly selfish then dishonestly humanitarian. what i care about is ME and MINE. Falling into the category of "mine" would be my immediate family, my good friends and my husband. The rest of the world, I don't spend much time caring about.

 

When I look at things, I look at: "How does this affect me and mine." If it doesn't personally affect me, I don't bother with it. If it does, I seek direct alternatives to get done what I need done. i.e. If I discovered some employer was a misogynist, rather than suing for a lot of money or calling the ACLU, I would look for work working for someone who ISN"T a misogynist. Because the truth of the matter is, you can force someone to comply to a law, but you cannot change who they are inside...and it would be personally harmful to me to stay in such a toxic environment.

Also...the name: "Lesbian Avengers" totally kicks ass.

 

Zoe;

 

I appreciate your candor on the matter. One of the things that I was trying to communicate to RR is that, in fact, most people are going to be where you are. If it affects them, it's something they are willing to get excercised about, if it doesn't better than half the time folks won't. Whatever my thoughts my be on the matter, that's the way the real world is. What that means is that, largely, any movement of people who are working to affect social change is largely on their own--which is one of the reasons I push myself hard and encourage other blacks, other women and other queer folks to push themselves hard. There are enough, let's say, neutral non-engaged parties who more or less believe in something that more or less approximates meritocracy to have room to maneuver--but only if your very worst is consistently better than the best of the average member of the majority. What that means is that if you are a woman and you work in, say, the sciences, engineering, math or computers you had better be head and shoulders above your male colleagues. If they show up at 7 and leave at 4, you show up at 6 and leave at 5. If they know three programming languages, you learn five. Is that fair? No, it's not but it opens up spaces that otherwise would not open up. Ig you are Other, you simply cannot afford the luxuries of mediocrity. In the professional and educational domains, we should aim for meritocracy because it is the system that is least likely to be unfair to the most people. I am, if nothing else, a pragmatist.

 

I have long-since given up the idea that sensitivity or understanding is something I can expect and so I no longer even look for it. I have a very thick skin, an in-person demeanor that immediately establishes that I am professional, somewhat quirky and very, very intelligent. It keeps a lot of people at bay, I recognize that and that's all for the better. It saves me the trouble of having to cover up things and it saves them the trouble of having to pretend to tolerance of difference or care about the circumstances of a group to which they do not belong. Would I rather there be no racism, sexism and homophobia? Yep, I would. Do I believe that that is achievable by this species? No, I don't. So the best I can do is affect the laws to the degree possible and then steer clear of those who are rabidly intolerant. Do I expect you, to care if I am fired because I'm a lesbian? No. I don't expect you to cheer but I don't expect you to care if it happens, either. So, since I cannot expect you to take my side if our mutual boss or our co-workers decide that I have to go because I have a picture of my girlfriend on my desk, I need to advocate with law makers and the courts, to make the most compelling rational argument that people should be hired and fired on the merits of their performance or potential performance and not arbitrary characteristics tangential to the job. Because I have a me and mine as well, and since the most realistic I can expect from non-aligned parties is that they will sit by, say "that sucked that that happened" long *after* I'm walked out the door, I want the law in my corner. Because unless it makes your job more difficult why on Earth would you care if I was fired for being a lesbian?

 

Now, I was raised differently and I try to live differently. I was raised that, in fact, it's beyond your own enlightened self-interest and the self-interest of your immediate people. There are issues of philosophy that we were taught in church that I vehemently disagree with but the idea that a life lived looking out only for your own self-interest is a life wasted is not one of them. That is not meant as a slam against you, how you live your life is your own lookout and only you can decide what a life well-lived could possibly mean to you. There are, of course, only so many hours in a day, only so many years in a lifetime and no one can care about all the things. One of the reasons I'm no longer an activist is that the gay rights movement lost focus. There is no lesbian position on, for instance, Palestine and issues relating to the Palestinians have no place being discussed or advocated for in queer contexts. Coalition building is fine, having a gigantic umbrella encompassing every group under the sun is a dispersal of energies.

 

I agree, to a point, about not staying with an employer who isn't a misogynist but I'm also relatively privileged in that I'm a Linux admin, I can, in point of fact, find work and there aren't tons of me out there. If I'm a receptionist, then there are tons of me out there and having some protection of the law is important.

 

Cheers

lf

ps. I liked being part of the Avenger. It was a lot of fun.

[BlueGiant]

Zoe,

 

I can understand becoming a self-defining quantity (I try that as much as I can myself), and it is good to remember that labels/groups/collectives are not people, I personally feel that group labels have their use. They are a symbol, or more specifically an abstraction, something easier to handle quickly. In a way it is a social shorthand. At the same time they are only useful as long as you remember their limits and that they are not material, but instead are just a convienence.

 

In a way, the no vote/protest thing seems a bit far to me in terms of individuality. Does one have to isolate themselves to remain an individual? Not meaning in any accusing way, more asking this as a curiosity question.

 

A lot of cool points, though. And if I haven't said it, it's good to see you around again.

[HuaiDan]

I'm not from Singapore, BTW. I'm an American working in the heart of Communist China, Shanghai, where there is a thriving, if discreet, gay community with a full panoply of gay bars, discos, bathhouses, AIDS support groups, psychological counseling services, etc. I guess you could say both fun and wholesome. I don't see much bashing going on here.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Unless it is a totally gay establishment I don't think I would ever show public affection(even something as insignificant as holding hands) with my boyfriend.

People are so goddamn ignorant. And it seems like being gay is the last bastion of bigotry that is acceptable.

Just seeing two people of the same sex showing affection brings out the beast in many bigoted people.

 

Yes, it bugs me that a guy and a girl can suck face or more in public and it's treated as normal, even as a nice thing, but two guys holding hands run definite risks, even in place where there are lots of gays residing. I see young women holding hands in public pretty often but not often older than say, 30.

 

My new boyfriend and I were in Athens the other night and we saw two non-Greek guys, maybe Swedish, publicly holding hands near the Acropolis. It was a touristy part of town, so I don't know whether they would have provoked a bigoted reaction in another part of the city. We held hands a bit but I was nervous about it, and at one point, some guy yelled something like did we want him to find a gay prostitute for us.

 

I feel holding hands in public is a political act for two men in the West, and most of the time I don't feel I have the energy for that. Maybe I'll do it more and move to Florida and shoot any bastards that I perceive as threatening me (legal in that state now, I think).