KT45 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 This is my lame attempt to rationalize to a christian why I don't believe in God. The goal is for him to see my logic say, that my reasoning is understandable and walk away. This is not to avoid conversation or debate with this one but I am trying to go for a quick "first round KO" if you know what I mean. If this is done well I will memorize it and it can hopefully be used by others. If it can't I will crawl into my corner and try again another day. Please critique. Christian: Why don't you believe in God? Me: Well I would need a reason to? Can I explain? (I'm counting on him to let me explain, if he doesn't then this whole strategy is worthless) Christian: Sure why not Me: Okay I'm going to change your question around because I'm hoping it will help put things in better perspective. I'm going to change your question to "why don't I believe in Allah?". Hear me out before you say anything. (Just a note, I'm doing this to hopefully seeing my point of view. In a sense they enter an atheist mindset since I'm talking about a god that christians reject.) Me: I would need a reason to believe in Allah. I haven't seen any evidence that he exist. I do know there is a book about him filled with many stories but I have no reason to believe these stories are real. Even though this book has real places in it and some real people in it I still have no reason to believe it. This book even has a threat of torment for those who don't believe and follow this book, but to me it's no different than a the story about santa clause giving coal to those who aren't nice! To me it's just a very old story people used to believe in and nothing more. (At this point the christian is probably eager to jump in or maybe he is scratching his head so I need to finish this off) Me: Some might say I need to give Allah a chance to manifest himslef in my life. But I have no reason to. Until he manifest himself to me and provides me personally with the evidence to believe in him then I have no reason to have blind faith about him. Can you kinda see why I wouldn't believe in Allah? (I hope you see the trap here. They will not defend Allah if they are a christian. They reject Allah themselves so they won't even try to convience me he is real ) Christian: Yeah I can see why you don't believe in Allah Me: So can you kinda see why I wouldn't believe a similar story like the bible or the supernatural creatures in it? Christian: I guess I can see your point, hopefully he will reveal himself to you like he has for me Me: We will see I was thinking about throwing this comment in Me: A few years ago I had no reason to believe in gaint squids. I didn't know if they were real or not but I didn't have any reason to believe they existed even if they were in folklore and old stories. Now that we have evidence of there existance I currently have a reason to accept there existance. But it wasn't until I reached that point did I have a reason to believe it existed. I didn't know if the above comment would hurt me in the end or help me. Maybe you can give your thoughts. I want to see if this is worth keeping in mind so will this work for most lay christians and possibly some educated ones? Go back into christian mentality if need be when answering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 you can't rationalize with the irrational. a christian might say, although there is no proof of Alah, there is no proof there is no Alah, or they might say, God did manifest himself as Jesus, you just deny it. there are many other routes you could take. but i don't think that the question "why do i need a reason" is a good way to start it out, because a christian could bore you for hours explaining how you need a savior. and in the end we can always whip out the old saying "i will pray for you", doesn't that just piss you off. other than that i do like your point, it is something i have had to rethink for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Paineful Truth Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 They never ask "why" you don't believe in God, just if you do or if you've been saved or something. Otherwise, it looks good to me as food for thought for a "revealed word" believer. But what if the person asking the question were an agnostic? How do you respond reasonably for or against a belief in the possibility of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jauggy Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 you can't rationalize with the irrational. a christian might say, although there is no proof of Alah, there is no proof there is no Alah, or they might say, God did manifest himself as Jesus, you just deny it. there are many other routes you could take. but i don't think that the question "why do i need a reason" is a good way to start it out, because a christian could bore you for hours explaining how you need a savior. and in the end we can always whip out the old saying "i will pray for you", doesn't that just piss you off. other than that i do like your point, it is something i have had to rethink for myself. I hate it when you say that you're atheist and then they say "I will pray for you". Number one - the prayer isn't going to do anything (I'm still atheist). Number two - it's as if I have some sort of disease and need to be cured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 you can't rationalize with the irrational. a christian might say, although there is no proof of Alah, there is no proof there is no Alah, or they might say, God did manifest himself as Jesus, you just deny it. there are many other routes you could take. but i don't think that the question "why do i need a reason" is a good way to start it out, because a christian could bore you for hours explaining how you need a savior. and in the end we can always whip out the old saying "i will pray for you", doesn't that just piss you off. other than that i do like your point, it is something i have had to rethink for myself. I hate it when you say that you're atheist and then they say "I will pray for you". Number one - the prayer isn't going to do anything (I'm still atheist). Number two - it's as if I have some sort of disease and need to be cured. welcome to the site, i am the local apologetic lunatic, and yes, i will be praying for your diseased soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jauggy Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 you can't rationalize with the irrational. a christian might say, although there is no proof of Alah, there is no proof there is no Alah, or they might say, God did manifest himself as Jesus, you just deny it. there are many other routes you could take. but i don't think that the question "why do i need a reason" is a good way to start it out, because a christian could bore you for hours explaining how you need a savior. and in the end we can always whip out the old saying "i will pray for you", doesn't that just piss you off. other than that i do like your point, it is something i have had to rethink for myself. I hate it when you say that you're atheist and then they say "I will pray for you". Number one - the prayer isn't going to do anything (I'm still atheist). Number two - it's as if I have some sort of disease and need to be cured. welcome to the site, i am the local apologetic lunatic, and yes, i will be praying for your diseased soul. You don't seem like a lunatic to me. Thanks for the welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I hate it when you say that you're atheist and then they say "I will pray for you". Number one - the prayer isn't going to do anything (I'm still atheist). Number two - it's as if I have some sort of disease and need to be cured. I DO have a disease (multiple sclerosis) and I still hate it when people say they'll pray for me -- especially the more mind-fucked among the religious retards who say something like, "If your faith is strong enough, gawd will cure you." Yeah, right. Still waiting. But, I usually let it pass. And I don't actively try to convert True Believers™ because it's a frustrating waste of time. No matter how rationale your argument, they just won't "get it" until and unless they choose to open their minds. (However, I have had some success planting that first seed of doubt with more intellectually honest people, and this usually occurs when I have some reinforcement; i.e., a book or website I can recommend for them to explore freethought.) Anyway, I gotta get to work now, but I thought I'd add in my 1¢ first. Also, jauggy, welcome to the site. I hope you enjoy it, and I hope to see you around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I have to agree with Thackerie on this one. Trying to deconvert Christians is a frustrating waste of time. I saw elsewhere on Ex-C where a guy was relating what a Christian had said to him. "I believe because I want to believe." Now what are going to do with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I hate it when you say that you're atheist and then they say "I will pray for you". Number one - the prayer isn't going to do anything (I'm still atheist). Number two - it's as if I have some sort of disease and need to be cured. I DO have a disease (multiple sclerosis) and I still hate it when people say they'll pray for me -- especially the more mind-fucked among the religious retards who say something like, "If your faith is strong enough, gawd will cure you." Yeah, right. Still waiting. But, I usually let it pass. And I don't actively try to convert True Believers™ because it's a frustrating waste of time. No matter how rationale your argument, they just won't "get it" until and unless they choose to open their minds. (However, I have had some success planting that first seed of doubt with more intellectually honest people, and this usually occurs when I have some reinforcement; i.e., a book or website I can recommend for them to explore freethought.) Anyway, I gotta get to work now, but I thought I'd add in my 1¢ first. Also, jauggy, welcome to the site. I hope you enjoy it, and I hope to see you around! sorry to hear about that, i appologize if my comment offended you, i was really just being humourous with the guy. that is a very tough autoimmune disorder to cope with. has the interferon Tx helped any. some they do and others they don't do so much for. i wish the best for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 sorry to hear about that, i appologize if my comment offended you, i was really just being humourous with the guy. that is a very tough autoimmune disorder to cope with. has the interferon Tx helped any. some they do and others they don't do so much for. i wish the best for you. Oh, no, freeday, I wasn't commenting on your comment. I knew you were just joking. I've seen a lot of your posts, and I think you seem like a decent sort (for a christian ). I had in mind the strangers who approach me (they can't fail to notice that I'm disabled because I use crutches), and then out of the blue tell me they'll pray for me. I know most of them are trying to be kind, so I say "thank you" even though I feel like saying "thanks for nothing." But the ones who really bother me are the ones who seem to imply that having MS is somehow my fault for not praying or nor having faith or whatever. As for the Rx, I inject Betaseron every other day. The doctor tells me it's helping because my condition hasn't really changed much in the past couple of years. It's not a cure (there's no such thing, yet), but it's supposed to slow down the progression of the disease. But, since MS is so unpredictable, it's really hard to tell. Thanks for asking, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 but i don't think that the question "why do i need a reason" is a good way to start it out, because a christian could bore you for hours explaining how you need a savior. and in the end we can always whip out the old saying "i will pray for you", doesn't that just piss you off. other than that i do like your point, it is something i have had to rethink for myself. Yeah I know it's not the best question to ask but that's why I set up the my response like this. "First I would need a reason to believe in God. Can I explain?" As long as I get the opprotunity to explain I can lead there mindset to concentrating on Allah and forget there argument about Jesus. You can't read this like a message board post where you can attack each point, but instead like a conversation in which the main points of the conversation can be forgotten. But you are right, if they get a chance to answer the question "Why do I need a reason to believe" and bring up Jesus then the debate will go on for hours They never ask "why" you don't believe in God, just if you do or if you've been saved or something. Otherwise, it looks good to me as food for thought for a "revealed word" believer. But what if the person asking the question were an agnostic? How do you respond reasonably for or against a belief in the possibility of God? yeah I was thinking more from an atheist point of view which is what I'm closer to so this argument wouldn't work for an agnostic. Your right about christians not asking "why don't you believe in God" but they do ask "have you been saved". With that in mind, here is how I think the discussion would go. Christian: have you been saved Me: I'm a Atheist I don't believe in God Christian: Why don't you believe in God? Hence me being an atheist is an automatic setup I have to agree with Thackerie on this one. Trying to deconvert Christians is a frustrating waste of time. The purpose is to not try to deconvert them but instead to just rationalize with them. Get them to end the conversation with "I can understand your point of view hopefully God will reveal himself to you. God Bless!" or something like that. It's also to end the little debate quickly and easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 yeah I was thinking more from an atheist point of view which is what I'm closer to so this argument wouldn't work for an agnostic. Your right about christians not asking "why don't you believe in God" but they do ask "have you been saved". With that in mind, here is how I think the discussion would go. Christian: have you been saved Me: I'm a Atheist I don't believe in God Christian: Why don't you believe in God? Hence me being an atheist is an automatic setup My responses: Christian: have you been saved? Me: by Jesus, or from Jesus? Chistian: (silent blank stare) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 They never ask "why" you don't believe in God, just if you do or if you've been saved or something. Otherwise, it looks good to me as food for thought for a "revealed word" believer. But what if the person asking the question were an agnostic? How do you respond reasonably for or against a belief in the possibility of God? I think of myself as an agnostic more than an atheist (just because atheists are so discriminated against in our society). I'm really both because I don't have an active belief in a god, but I'm open to the possibility of there being "something" that could be referred to as god (though whatever it is sure hasn't gone to any trouble to reveal itself). However, I'm pretty confident that nothing like the monstrosity depicted in the bible ever has existed. You really can't prove the non-existence of any god, but I think you could point out scriptural contradictions to show that belief in bible god is a logical fallacy. Of course, like I said before, True Believers™ are going to hold on to their beliefs no matter what. Even if you nail them with a ton of logic, they'll just let it slide off them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 yeah I was thinking more from an atheist point of view which is what I'm closer to so this argument wouldn't work for an agnostic. Your right about christians not asking "why don't you believe in God" but they do ask "have you been saved". With that in mind, here is how I think the discussion would go. Christian: have you been saved Me: I'm a Atheist I don't believe in God Christian: Why don't you believe in God? Hence me being an atheist is an automatic setup My responses: Christian: have you been saved? Me: by Jesus, or from Jesus? Chistian: (silent blank stare) i am giving you the silent blank stare at this exact moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeiPassion Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 There's no point in explaining to a Christian why you're an athiest. Besides, Christians believe that their religion in the correct religion and it has all the answers. You can't really argue with someone who has this mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 yeah I was thinking more from an atheist point of view which is what I'm closer to so this argument wouldn't work for an agnostic. Your right about christians not asking "why don't you believe in God" but they do ask "have you been saved". With that in mind, here is how I think the discussion would go. Christian: have you been saved Me: I'm a Atheist I don't believe in God Christian: Why don't you believe in God? Hence me being an atheist is an automatic setup My responses: Christian: have you been saved? Me: by Jesus, or from Jesus? Chistian: (silent blank stare) i am giving you the silent blank stare at this exact moment. It's a play off the saying "Freedom from Religion" (atheist humor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I have to agree with Thackerie on this one. Trying to deconvert Christians is a frustrating waste of time. I saw elsewhere on Ex-C where a guy was relating what a Christian had said to him. "I believe because I want to believe." Now what are going to do with that? Why would you want to deconvert a xtian? If you were a believer and deconverted, you know how painful it is. While its true that the freedom from religion is a much better life, attempting to deconvert someone, change their beliefs is no different than them attempting to convert you and change your beliefs. Its great when there is dialogue and they can be made to think..but a deliberate attempt at de-evangilizing is well..what they do. Taylork, your dialogue is very well thought out. Excellent prep answers for when the questions DO come..and boy do they, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms. K Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 There's no point in explaining to a Christian why you're an athiest. Besides, Christians believe that their religion in the correct religion and it has all the answers. You can't really argue with someone who has this mindset. Which is why the local fundies hate it when they encounter some egotistical as me, who will look them in the eye when they start telling me that there's only ONE God, blah blah blah, and say, "Just because YOU say so? I don't think so." Of course that starts them on the, "No, the BIBLE says so," as if that's supposed to convince me. That's when I put my nose in the air, and say, "OH, you're one of THOSE. No logic, no reasoning skills, can't think for yourselves, gotta have someone to tell you what you should believe. Good luck with that, hopefully someday you'll learn how to think." They hate that, but you know what? I really hate fundies who look down their noses at me, and tell me that I'm one of THOSE people, and they'll pray for me, really, because I'm so misguided. Drives me crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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