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Are You A True Christian(tm)?


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Why dance with a cobra? Try dancing with one of these:

 

large_easternbrownsnake.jpg

 

(Pseudonaja Textilis or the Eastern Brown snake) It's the second deadliest in the world.

 

 

Of course, no True Christian would be seen dead dancing with anything less deadly than this:

 

{Mt8Rg-kK4bR-t5Ko8}-Inlandstaipan-Oxyuranus-microlepidota-1.jpg

 

To dance with one, travel to The Corner. No, not the one at the end of your street, the area between the Australian States of Queensland, New South Wales, and South Australia. By the way most of the area there is desert, so you can put certain other things to the test as well.

Casey

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Why dance with a cobra? Try dancing with one of these:

 

Of course, no True Christian would be seen dead dancing with anything less deadly than this:

 

To dance with one, travel to The Corner. No, not the one at the end of your street, the area between the Australian States of Queensland, New South Wales, and South Australia. By the way most of the area there is desert, so you can put certain other things to the test as well.

Casey

 

I think the spitting cobra looks to be the most scary. That little bastard doesn't even have to bite you! Said Christian wouldn't even get to dance! He make his move to grab him and squirrrrrt! My eyes! Why God, why?!!! Silly believers!

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:)Hi Reverend! If you take this literal, I can see the terror in accepting this to be true! However, if we look at it as a metaphor, it takes on a totally different meaning.

 

What could a poisonous snake be as a metaphor? Perhaps it is a person with a lie, that slithers close to the dust of the earth, the carnal nature, that can sneak up on us and 'bite' us, injecting its venomous ideas that unkowingly will ultimately steal the will to thrive and therefore contributing to our emotional death. If one is steadfastly standing on solid foundations of truth, the interjection of a poisonous lie will have no effect. One can handle those "snakes" and they will cause no harm.

 

IF this is the criteria of being a true Christians, I'd say they are far and few between... and certainly NOT all those people who label themselves so. :wink:

 

Of course, all this is IMHO.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The mark of a true Christian is believing in Jesus Christ as the only way to God and Salvation, and accepting Him as their Lord and Savior, along with repenting from every known sin. That verse is true, Christians can do things in the name of Christ. This, however, does not mean we are to be stupid about it and go looking for snakes to pick up, and demons to cast out. However, when something presents itself where we need to pick up a serpent, or cast out demons, if the person has faith in Christ, he can do it.

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First, welcome aboard Scott.

 

Second, sadly there's a nice long trail of dead xians that had to tangle with snakes...and lost.

 

Third, since demons don't exist you can rest assured that anyone can deal with them and survive quite nicely. I think my cat was fighting with one the other day since he was going nuts over something that I sure couldn't see (he does that a lot). ;)

 

mwc

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Thanks for the welcome, mwc.

Can you some Christians who had a tangle with snakes and lost? I don't doubt there have been some Christians who have been bitten by snakes and lost. But I believe anything is possible with Christ.

It's actually quite possible that demons exist. I believe 100% that demons exist, because the Bible teaches it. However, aside from the Bible, how many witnesses would you, personally, need that have seen something demonic, or the casting out of demons?

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Welcome Scott. I don't think our wowsers (fundamentalist christians) go in for amateur herpetology (snake handling) in the way some of the more extreme American sects do. I think these sects base their beliefs on the verses quoted and on an account of Saint Paul's shipwreck on a Mediterranean island. (The one where he allegedly reached into a pile of wood to keep a fire going and was bitten by a "viper".)

 

I'd suspect that was a puff adder. These are deadly snakes, but nowhere as deadly as the two I've shown. Paul may have caught a glimpse of the snake as he went to pick up the wood and had the presence of mind to turn the back of his hand toward it. That's a trick used to this day by Indian snake charmers. The idea is the snake cannot inflict much of a bite there, and can't inject enough venom to kill. The theory would seem to be borne out when we read that Paul flung the snake from his hand into the fire. The account also doesn't give any details of exactly which part of Paul's hand the snake bit.

 

It could also have happened that the reptile had recently been hunting, and killed some prey. If that be so, depending on the size of its prey, it might only have been able to inflict a "dry bite" (non-lethal). Still, when the audience is made up of superstitious or otherwise credulous people and the tale is exaggerated and repeated often enough, a commonplace incident turns into a miracle.

 

I remember playing a hand of Bridge one night with a relatively inexperienced partner. He had left us in quite the wrong contract, but that happens sometimes, OK? Can happen to far better players than us, I might tell you. We were up against a veteran pair, and they were nobody's fools. The long and the short of it was I should have to make eleven tricks out of a possible thirteen whereas every other pair would only have to make ten to get what we call a "top" (high score).

 

The trump suit was Hearts if I remember rightly, and the fit was Moysian (we held seven out of thirteen cards between us). However we had a good Club side suit, we-ell, it would have been good if it hadn't been hopelessly blocked. I was also void in Spades (I had none) and partner had a couple, including the Ace. I was able to use that Ace for what's called a jettison play after using a trump to ruff the opening lead. This play meant my being able to run the Clubs for two discards and guaranteed eleven tricks and a top. I don't normally try fancy stuff like that, but desperate times demand desperate measures. :wicked:

 

My point in telling you this story? Suppose some christian who had read and knew very little else in his life other than the bible had been there and watched me do this. Let's further suppose he then saw me make a few other rather difficult contracts. Then too, let's still futher theorise that he supposed me to show remarkable psychic abilities, ie I seemed by some unholy means to know where certain cards were, whereas the prosaic truth, did he but know it, was simply that I had studied my game and some subjects covered by higher mathematics. I had also taken the time to practise a variety of techniques of card-play not in everyday use at the table, and these things, taken together, occasionally produce spectacular results.

 

It's actually quite possible that demons exist. I believe 100% that demons exist, because the Bible teaches it. However, aside from the Bible, how many witnesses would you, personally, need that have seen something demonic, or the casting out of demons?

 

I personally would have to be utterly convinced that what I was seeing was completely un-natural, and it would take a lot to convince me. Let's leave it at that.

Casey

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I drank a glass of poison, kissed a cobra snake, healed a guy with rickets and I pray to god.

Do I get a reward? :P

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Can you some Christians who had a tangle with snakes and lost? I don't doubt there have been some Christians who have been bitten by snakes and lost. But I believe anything is possible with Christ.

Well, if I'm reading this correctly you want me to provide you with a list of names of xians that have been bitten and died? So I imagine all those people over the past 2000 years that have been bitten and died weren't "True" xians? How about those who were bitten and got treatment and lived? Pseudo-xians perhaps (or converts)? Where am I to draw this arbitrary line for you? Because once I begin then under what circumstances do the bites count/not count? Possibly upsetting the snake does not count (that's "testing") but a situation where it is totally accidental does count.

 

I don't have any statistics (I don't imagine any does) but I'd go as far to say that xian vs. non-xian snake-bite survival rates are probably pretty much statistically identical just like every other xian vs. non-xian survival rate. Rendering the whole thing pretty much moot (like prayer).

 

It's actually quite possible that demons exist. I believe 100% that demons exist, because the Bible teaches it. However, aside from the Bible, how many witnesses would you, personally, need that have seen something demonic, or the casting out of demons?

Well, it's a bold claim to state demons exist but it's another to actually back it with anything beyond an assertion. I would need absolutely zero human witnesses of anything demonic. I would require only a demon. To date I've yet to encounter any in spite of my repeated requests that any supernatural beings, good, bad or indifferent appear personally to me and identify themselves (and perform an actual, verifiable supernatural act...something beyond the normal "trickery" heard in stories or seen in movies...what that is I'm not too sure since I know I'll never need to actually test anything but I'm sure I could come up with something if the need ever did present itself). It seems believing in them is a prerequisite to their appearance.

 

mwc

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The mark of a true Christian is believing in Jesus Christ as the only way to God and Salvation, and accepting Him as their Lord and Savior, along with repenting from every known sin. That verse is true, Christians can do things in the name of Christ. This, however, does not mean we are to be stupid about it and go looking for snakes to pick up, and demons to cast out. However, when something presents itself where we need to pick up a serpent, or cast out demons, if the person has faith in Christ, he can do it.

Welcome to the site.

 

The problem with what you are saying is that when the inevitable happens and the hoped for "promise" of something someone read in the Bible in some particular way in fact does not come to pass, then an "explanation" is necessary in order to keep the "belief" true. One of two explanations is typical:

 

1. The failure of the promise to materialize is the fault to the Christian for not having "enough" faith

 

2. God's sovereign will overrode the fulfillment of the believed in promise because he had "other plans" that are unknown and may remain a mystery to us until after we're dead

 

Notice I did not list as a possible "explanation" that the believer's notion of what he reads in the Bible could be in error? The reason I didn't list that is because faith operates in the Biblical literalists mind in such a way as to start with the premise that how they believe something is the truth, then to question their own notions about how they believe is to equate that for them with a direct disbelief in God! There is no difference between what a literalist believes about God and what God is in their minds. In reality their beliefs are God to them. It is rare indeed to ever hear a literalist say, "Maybe our beliefs are in error". It is not listed as a possible explaination for the failure of the promise because it is not something you would hear volunteered by them. This fact itself is the most telling explaination to what really went wrong.

 

The real point here is that a faith that operates like this can't be healthy, can it? Your comment, "I believe 100% in demons because the Bible teaches it." Answer this question; do you think that Christians who do not believe the same things you do are not "True Christians"? Do you think you may not be a "True Christian" because you think everything you are taught in your particular sects teachings is Biblically solid, yet your brother in a different sect believes his beliefs are true, and every other literalist/fundamentalist on this planet believes their sects beliefs are true.

 

Who's right and who's wrong, and how do YOU know which is which? Whose team is God really on? How do you know over all other human beings? Go by faith right now and find out when you're dead who was really right??? Are you the true special one and they aren't? Are you wiser and they're not? Are you chosen or are you decived? Or is this all simply an arrogant folly that should be abandoned in favor of the humility of being in the same boat as all of humanity?

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It doesn't matter what denomination you belong to. Any one denomination is not to "True" Church, but rather the Church is made up of all Christians everywehre. Now, you have to draw the line somewhere when you asked "Do you think that Christians who do not believe the same things you do are not "True Christians?" The answer to this question is not a yes or no answer. There are some basic Christian doctrines, that unless you do believe it, you are not a Christian at all. For example, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That is a solid doctrine of the Christianity, and for a so-called Christian to claim Jesus as being anything other than the Son of God is heresy. Now, if you're talking about doctrines that are up for debate, such as, the rapture of the Church, or the power of the Apostles being passed to all Christians, do not determine your eternal destiny. What determines your eternal destiny is simply the question, who do you say that Jesus Christ is? All other questions, all other debates do not hold as much importance as the eternal question, who is Jesus Christ?

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What determines your eternal destiny is simply the question, who do you say that Jesus Christ is?

 

Jesus Christ is fictional. He's a character based on many other god-men, born of virgins, that preceded him. He's not original, he plagiarized. And don't get me started on the immorality of the character! I'll say this, he's no role model!

 

My destiny, the time after my death, is already set, as is yours. We will cease to exist -- and there is nothing to fear about this. Tell me, what memories do you have prior to your birth? None? This is precisely as it shall be after you die. Epicurus, the Greek philosopher my son was named after, put this very succinctly:

 

"Grow accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us, since every good and evil lie in sensation. However, death is the deprivation of sensation. Therefore, correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life enjoyable, not by adding an endless span of time but by taking away the longing for immortality. For there is nothing dreadful in life for the man who has truly comprehended that there is nothing terrible in not living. Therefore, foolish is the man who says that he fears death, not because it will cause pain when it arrives but because anticipation of it is painful. What is no trouble when it arrives is an idle worry in anticipation. Death, therefore -- the most dreadful of evils -- is nothing to us, since while we exist, death is not present, and whenever death is present, we do not exist. It is nothing either to the living or the dead, since it does not exist for the living, and the dead no longer are."

 

:)Hi Reverend! If you take this literal, I can see the terror in accepting this to be true! However, if we look at it as a metaphor, it takes on a totally different meaning.

 

What could a poisonous snake be as a metaphor? Perhaps it is a person with a lie, that slithers close to the dust of the earth, the carnal nature, that can sneak up on us and 'bite' us, injecting its venomous ideas that unkowingly will ultimately steal the will to thrive and therefore contributing to our emotional death. If one is steadfastly standing on solid foundations of truth, the interjection of a poisonous lie will have no effect. One can handle those "snakes" and they will cause no harm.

 

IF this is the criteria of being a true Christians, I'd say they are far and few between... and certainly NOT all those people who label themselves so. :wink:

 

Of course, all this is IMHO.

 

What basis have you in supposing it's a metaphor? It makes no sense that it would be so. These are the signs that will follow those who believe. Metaphors are hardly impressive enough to qualify as signs. Signs are bold and impressive! Say, like really drinking posion, really dancing with real snakes or really healing the sick.

 

I drank a glass of poison, kissed a cobra snake, healed a guy with rickets and I pray to god.

Do I get a reward? :P

 

You get to the gift of getting to keep your own life, brother! Praise the load! lol...

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The mark of a true Christian is believing in Jesus Christ as the only way to God and Salvation, and accepting Him as their Lord and Savior, along with repenting from every known sin. That verse is true, Christians can do things in the name of Christ. This, however, does not mean we are to be stupid about it and go looking for snakes to pick up, and demons to cast out. However, when something presents itself where we need to pick up a serpent, or cast out demons, if the person has faith in Christ, he can do it.

 

Why would doing these things at any time be stupid? If you are a believer you should be able to do it every second of your life until your natural death. It's guaranteed by your Jesus! Let's look at the verse again, shall we?

 

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

It doesn't say to wait till it presents itself. It says "They shall..." and "and if..." So where are your deadly serpents? Where is your poison punch? I guess the hundreds of men, women and children who died at Jonestown didn't have enough faith, huh? And where was good ol' Jesus and his Daddy while this was happening? Were they napping? Off in another universe? Nonexistent perhaps? I vote for the last. Who's with me?

 

Why aren't you out healing AIDS and cancer patients? If these healers were genuine you wouldn't see the kind of mortality we see from diseases and disorders. Hell, we'd have no need for doctors, hospitals or more tellingly, insurance! No need for a doctor! I'm a Christian™! Stand back! (funky sound effects) Your brain cancer is healed! Praise the Lawd!

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There are some basic Christian doctrines, that unless you do believe it, you are not a Christian at all. For example, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That is a solid doctrine of the Christianity, and for a so-called Christian to claim Jesus as being anything other than the Son of God is heresy.

So, ignoring the fact that I believe your good old pal jesus to be a myth, it appears that you believe that a good many of the early "believers" were, in fact, not xian at all. Many, dare I say the majority, simply believed he was a prophet, like Moses or Elijah, and therefore, according to you were never truly xians.

 

Up until the Council at Nicea this issue was hotly debated so it wasn't as cut and dry as "modern" xians would like to lead people to believe. The council itself proving there was no majority perception of what jesus was even hundreds of years after his supposed death. Even during the council it appears no one could really decide and so Constantine made the final call even going against his council, and friend, Eusibius (sp?), who actually saw jesus in more the Arian light. Of course, this still didn't clinch things and, depending on who was in power over the next nearly 100 years, determined whether or not jesus was "god stuff" until it simply became the law of the land and no more changes could be made. Emperors, not "god" or the church made these decisions. It was only the sheer force of the Empire that could unify the majority view of jesus once and for all via the Roman Catholic Church. Without this the cult would have either lost momentum by now or still be fragmented into many pieces (had Islam still came into existance in a splintered xian world I think it's easy to see who we'd all be praying to many times a day).

 

Even to this day it is debated and you call it heresy? If this issue was so clear cut then it wouldn't be debatable but it clearly is and clearly has been since day one. The bible does not clearly support a trinity but yet a policy decision was made to have one. The Romans used to worship a classic trinity of Jupiter, Juno and Minerva (as I recall) so a trinity to replace them made perfect sense even if it was forced.

 

To say this doctrine is solid is far from truthful. To say this doctrine is simply accepted as being solid is more accurate.

 

mwc

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There are some basic Christian doctrines, that unless you do believe it, you are not a Christian at all. For example, Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What does being the Son of God mean? That he is the 2nd person in a Trinity? That he was the highest created being in heaven come to earth? That he was God the Father in human flesh? That he was a noble man given a title of honor, like we are all sons of God? Whose version of these different understanding is the correct one that your salvation is dependent on?

 

That is a solid doctrine of the Christianity, and for a so-called Christian to claim Jesus as being anything other than the Son of God is heresy.

For your edification, the word heresy simply means non-standard or non-orthodox. Who's defining orthodox? God or groups of men? Answer: Groups of men. So you are saying that unless you accept the adopted standards of men through various church councils, God will not allow you to go to heaven, but instead will banish you to eternal torture for the sake of torture only? Sounds like something men wanted power over men would create to enforce their control over the masses, doesn't it?

 

Now, if you're talking about doctrines that are up for debate, such as, the rapture of the Church, or the power of the Apostles being passed to all Christians, do not determine your eternal destiny.

I'm not talking about little doctrines such as tithing off the gross or the net of your income, I'm talking about all many different ways people viewed Jesus early on which were suppressed and destroyed by the power of the winning political parties in church councils. Please don't try to tell me that what you have received through your elders is 100% supported by scripture. Do you believe in the Trinity? That's pretty fundamental to Christianity today, yet it doesn't have solid support scripturally and only become an established doctrine in the 4th century AD, for one example only.

 

What determines your eternal destiny is simply the question, who do you say that Jesus Christ is? All other questions, all other debates do not hold as much importance as the eternal question, who is Jesus Christ?

Who did the earliest Christians say he was? Do you really know? There were lots of different beliefs about him amongst Christians back then. Which one is the magic key to heaven beliefs? Maybe it doesn't matter at all? Maybe the whole thing you have today is the result of evolving beliefs which later become a standard theology, then become so by calling all competitors "heresy", and burning and persecuting them? I vote for the later. History supports this scenario.

 

What more however, even if the only important thing is saying Jesus is the Son of God (in the traditional Trinitarian theological view of course and not all the other "heresies"), what is that worth??? How can that save you? Forgive me being crass, but whoopee! Unless you can go somewhere with that, how does it matter? How should you live? What should you think? What's right, and what's wrong? Is there a right and wrong? How do we know? Does God do anything in this world? Does he ignore us? What does he expect? Does he expect anything? How should I live? Does it matter?

 

You see what I'm driving at? What value does saying Jesus is the Son of God have? You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter if no two Christians can agree on the belief system, but I'm showing how it is the real heart of what it should be. Frankly, I would argue that it doesn't matter what someone believes about Jesus if the result is they live better lives. How does someone who thinks Jesus was a great teacher and chooses to practice, "love your neighbor", deserve hell???

 

I am anticipating your answer to be that why believing Jesus is the Son of God is important is because you need his blood to cover your sins. If so I ask you to just stand back for one minute and question that. God needs blood sacrifices????????????? Why!!?? That sounds like something a primitive man may have concluded as he saw how death brought life each season his crops grew and made a whole religion around it. Think about it. God is love; God needs to see bloodshed for him to show grace? That doesn’t make sense in either the mind or the spirit, does it?

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Reverend Atheistar, we are not to just go around picking up snakes to prove we have faith. That is like putting God to the test {Matthew 4:7}. It's a sin. And I do know for certain what will happen to me after death, and there is no need for me to be afraid. I know that I will be with my Master, the Lord Jesus, along with all others who accept Him as Lord and Savior of their lives.

 

Antlerman, Jesus is God in human flesh. Jesus is not only called the Son of God, but He is, in fact, God Himself {Jn. 3:16; 10:30}. The early Christians also knew and believed Jesus was the Son of God { Phil. 2:6 Col. 1:15}. The Christian doctrine is Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus could not have been just a prophet, or else He would not be the perfect sacrifice for sin, because prophets sin. Jesus commited no sin {Heb. 4:15}.

 

God needs a perfect sacrifice to forgive us for our sins. Why? Becasue the wages of sin is death {Rom. 6:23}, but God's gift is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ. Because God loves us so much and didn't want us to go to Hell, He came to earth Himself, lived a perfect life, and died on the cross for our sins as a perfect sacrifice. Then He rose from the dead, and is now in Heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father, which is a position of power. Because the wages of sin is death, someone needed to die, because humanity was and is full of sin and God cannot look upon sin. God wanted us to be free from sin, so He took our place. We deserved death, yet he took it all for us. Now, because of the love of God and His sacrifice, there needs to be no more sacrifice, no more death, no more Hell. By simple faith, we can live forever with Him in peace.

 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" Ephesians 2:8-9.

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Reverend Atheistar, we are not to just go around picking up snakes to prove we have faith. That is like putting God to the test {Matthew 4:7}. It's a sin. And I do know for certain what will happen to me after death, and there is no need for me to be afraid. I know that I will be with my Master, the Lord Jesus, along with all others who accept Him as Lord and Savior of their lives.

I was just going to watch for awhile and see what happened, but I can't let this sort of arrogance go. You worship what you think the bible says, not God. The bible tells you (in your mind) that you are chosen and anyone that doesn't believe as you do will not go where you go. You do NOT know for a fact what happens after you die, no one does. I know for a fact that you do not have the only understanding out there. That is a fact. You could be wrong, so don't go and get all almighty with us because you will be chewed up and spit out. Arrogance doesn't fly well here.

 

Antlerman, Jesus is God in human flesh. Jesus is not only called the Son of God, but He is, in fact, God Himself {Jn. 3:16; 10:30}. The early Christians also knew and believed Jesus was the Son of God { Phil. 2:6 Col. 1:15}. The Christian doctrine is Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus could not have been just a prophet, or else He would not be the perfect sacrifice for sin, because prophets sin. Jesus commited no sin {Heb. 4:15}.
You are so uninformed it is not even funny. You forgot to say that his legs weren't broken, like usual for crucifixion, because he would then be blemished. You also forgot to say that Mary came from a virgin also. Although this understanding wasn't made until science proved that women also contributed to the infant (18th century!). If Mary's mother had sex, she would have the sin of Adam also and that would make Jesus blemished. You parrot the beliefs of your church without any understanding of the history of the bible or the people that wrote it. There are major debates that are still ongoing today about whether or not Jesus was god.

 

God needs a perfect sacrifice to forgive us for our sins. Why? Becasue the wages of sin is death {Rom. 6:23}, but God's gift is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ. Because God loves us so much and didn't want us to go to Hell, He came to earth Himself, lived a perfect life, and died on the cross for our sins as a perfect sacrifice. Then He rose from the dead, and is now in Heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father, which is a position of power. Because the wages of sin is death, someone needed to die, because humanity was and is full of sin and God cannot look upon sin. God wanted us to be free from sin, so He took our place. We deserved death, yet he took it all for us. Now, because of the love of God and His sacrifice, there needs to be no more sacrifice, no more death, no more Hell. By simple faith, we can live forever with Him in peace.

 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" Ephesians 2:8-9.

You are typical of a certain group of literalists and this understanding is dying as more information becomes available. I don't have the desire or the energy to try to get you to open your eyes. We can't even know who you are by what you are saying. When you speak, we see a certain branch of a cult flowing from your fingers. This is not you speaking, but one understanding. And there are many more that don't believe as you do that say you would be the one in hell. You both have one thing in common though...you both think you're right.

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God needs a perfect sacrifice to forgive us for our sins. Why? Becasue the wages of sin is death {Rom. 6:23}, but God's gift is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ. Because God loves us so much and didn't want us to go to Hell, He came to earth Himself, lived a perfect life, and died on the cross for our sins as a perfect sacrifice. Then He rose from the dead, and is now in Heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father, which is a position of power. Because the wages of sin is death, someone needed to die, because humanity was and is full of sin and God cannot look upon sin. God wanted us to be free from sin, so He took our place. We deserved death, yet he took it all for us. Now, because of the love of God and His sacrifice, there needs to be no more sacrifice, no more death, no more Hell. By simple faith, we can live forever with Him in peace.

Thanks for the sermon. :Wendywhatever:

 

Sadly, you didn't address anything in it. Also, since you're obviously unaware, jesus does not qualify as a sacrifice in any way shape, or form nor does his method of sacrifice qualify and as such it cannot be used as a sacrifice under god's own rules. A pity really. I mean to go through all the trouble you outline above and not get that detail right. Tsk tsk.

 

Second, ignoring the flaw in the actual sacrifice itself, since he's obviously back there was no true sacrifice and therefore it was all for show. Otherwise, he'd still be in hell where all sinners end up along with their sin. I mean, he did take on all the sin of the world, right? He did go to hell, right? Did he just shed that sin like a a snake sheds a skin or does he still bear the sins of the world? If the former then why can't everyone do that trick and leave hell? If the latter then what's he doing out of hell? Also, he must have only born the sins of the world upto the time he died since people kept on sinning past that point, upto and including, this very day. I'd keep going with the logical inconsistincies (that, believe me, I know the xian apologetic answers to) but there are other threads that go on and on about them.

 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" Ephesians 2:8-9.

This sounds great...if you only wish to listen to Paul. However, if you wish to actually listen to jesus, which you claim to do then try "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Mathhew 16:27" Don't worry, there are more just like this, but I don't want to play dueling verses.

 

I just wanted to point out that except for maybe two or three verses the whole idea of "faith alone" is entirely Paul's. So who's your true master? By all your citations so far I don't even need to guess.

 

mwc

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Notblidedbytheblight, every Christian on earth has the Holy Spirit within them, therefore, they have an assurance of salvation. I don't expect you to understand this, so I'll leave it at that.

 

mwc, Jesus, by His perfect life, was God's perfect sacrifice for sin. As far as your question about Him going to Hell, coming out, and why can't others perform this "tirck", I'm not completely certain, so I'll look into it and get back with you.

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Notblidedbytheblight, every Christian on earth has the Holy Spirit within them, therefore, they have an assurance of salvation. I don't expect you to understand this, so I'll leave it at that.

Scott...every person on earth has the God essence inside them. Don't be so prideful and attribute God's very essence to your chosen group. Can you see your arrogance yet? Jesus wasn't preaching exclusivity, why are you? The church tell you to?

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Notblindedbytheblight, I am not being arrogant or prideful. I am telling you what the Bible says. Every Christian is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit {1 Cor. 6:19}. Jesus' mesage was to all. But only those who accept Him will be saved, and those who do not accept Him will be condemned {Jn. 3:17-18}.

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Notblindedbytheblight, I am not being arrogant or prideful. I am telling you what the Bible says. Every Christian is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit {1 Cor. 6:19}. Jesus' mesage was to all. But only those who accept Him will be saved, and those who do not accept Him will be condemned {Jn. 3:17-18}.

Scott...I pretty much know what the bible says. Do you understand what the bible went through to arrive at what it is now?

 

Those who understood what he said could save themselves. Those that didn't, would continue to live as they did...judging others. When you judge others, you are condemend to live a life of unhappiness. True?

 

I'm only doing this to try to get you to see there are other ways to read it. You have to be careful of putting too much faith into what Paul interpreted. Look more to what Jesus said and try to do without what others thought he said. Paul had a vision that he put together with what he heard about Jesus and then Mark came and tried to understand what Paul was saying and then Matthew added his own understanding...on and on it goes. Not one of them actually knew Jesus. It's not even proven that any one of them actually wrote the Gospels attributed to them. But, for arugments sake, we'll call them Mark, etc... They interpreted what he said with the mindset of what they believed. They believed in a God that resided in the sky somewhere. Jesus was telling them otherwise. The spin they put on what he said goes along with the teachings of the old testament because it was what they believed. The more they tried to tie Jesus to the old testament the more elaborate their stories had to become in order to do so. Paul saw Jesus as being with God the moment he ascending to heaven. Mark saw him as being God when John baptised him. Matthew saw him as God before he was born. John saw him as mystical. Luke copied... :D

 

Over and over they had to continue to add to the story because of their prior beliefs.

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mwc, Jesus, by His perfect life, was God's perfect sacrifice for sin. As far as your question about Him going to Hell, coming out, and why can't others perform this "tirck", I'm not completely certain, so I'll look into it and get back with you.

So it was his life and not his death that was the sacrifice? Interesting. Many "true" xians would disagree with you. Now, there are many resources, including threads on this site alone, that show how jesus failed to live a perfect life, but for the moment lets assume he did. How is living ones life according to ones very own set of rules a sacrifice? Let me help you out. It isn't. Living your life, your way, is about as far from a sacrifice as you can get. So you're going to have to try again if this is your argument. If you're going to regroup and tell me that this is his mighty "example" for us. Well, plenty of examples of "righteous" people, even in the NT, exist and so jesus is once again not needed. Finally, god, throughout the OT does not require perfection (in fact god's "best" are far in a way not perfect and yet god sees them as righteous and has no problem "looking" upon them so to speak) and therefore the declaration that this is a requirement borders on a lie.

 

In fact, in Genesis 4:7 god gives Cain the ultimate answer to the question "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Simple isn't it? If you do well, then you will be accepted. If not then you won't be accepted and "sin" will rule over you. So do well and rule over "sin" instead. God does not say believe in me, or obey my arbitrary set of rules, or wait for thousands of years for my "son" or any nonsense like that. He says be a good person and you will be acceptable. Period. Cain doesn't listen, kills Abel and is not accepted...not by "god" but by society, in the next verses but that's neither here nor there in this discussion. The point is the above is the very first mention of sin in the entire bible and it is also the "solution" if you will to the entire "sin" problem as well. All that comes after is a complicated mess. Be a good person, the best person you can be, you don't have to be perfect and that's good enough. With all of the OT's god's problems he at least understood some of this aspect of human nature unlike the NT god that demands perfection.

 

Here's your opening to launch into Paul's interpretation of the "law as a curse" but that won't fly with me. Sorry. I know better. I've read the book. The law was a blessing. It was to bring people closer to god and they loved god for sending the law to them because it did just that. Just because Paul has convinced xians otherwise doesn't make it so.

 

mwc

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All those views are biblically correct. Jesus is with God and He is God. It is good to heed the teaching of Jesus, Paul, and the other Apostles because they were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. So, it is right to believe them.

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