Sylvia Brown

[AtheistMommy]

 

I don't believe there's anything magical about being psychic any more than there's anything magical about being a musician. You said yourself that our brains give off and are made up of energy. What if there's some way for another brain to tap into that and we've been writing it off all this time just because we think it's "magic" or "supernatural" and therefore can't possibly exist?

 

 

I suppose someone who believes in ghosts would think that (not that I'm implying you do), or someone who believes in destiny. The energy you transfer from your brain isn't going to create some kind of magical passageway that tells you every thing about someone you've never met. It's especially not going to give you a mental passport to another world (after-life).

 

If and only if we can channel (not transfer) our own energy to an object we may be able to move things, sure, it's a force, but maybe not. I admit there is a such thing as "psychic energy," however it's not quite the same thing as we've been talking about here. I don't think channeling energy would matter in the way of telling the future. Its not tapping into another brain, its giving energy. If everyone's giving who's getting?

 

Lets look at the actual definition of the word...

 

psychic

 

adj 1: pertaining to forces or mental processes outside the possibilities defined by natural or scientific laws; "psychic reader"; "psychical research" [syn: psychical] 2: affecting or influenced by the human mind; "psychic energy"; "psychic trauma" [syn: psychical] 3: outside the sphere of physical science; "psychic phenomena" [syn: psychical] n : a person apparently sensitive to things beyond the natural range of perception

 

I found something interesting...

 

Be wary of:

 

Unrealistic claims such as being able to give you winning numbers in Lottery, or find your soul mate;

 

Expensive phone lines where the person on the phone will try and carry on the phone call as long as possible as the call is charged per minute;

 

Cold reading. A technique which involves manipulating the subject to make them think they are being provided with great insights, for instance making suggestions and seeing how the subject responds. This technique is often helped by the subject's willingness to believe in the psychic's paranormal powers;

 

People who tell you are cursed or going to die; real psychics should not tell you this sort of information.

 

A real psychic should be happy for you to ask some questions before you commit to paying for a sitting or a reading. They should also allow you record the session; this is common practice as it allows you to refer back to it in the future and you can forget details from the reading quite quickly.

 

Be clear about what you expect from the psychic - he or she may have genuine psychic powers but may not address issues you wanted to address. Different psychics have different specializations - for instance psychic healing is very different from mediumship and so on.

 

Genuine psychics may have undergone some form of training or be attached to some recognized organization such as the College of Psychic Studies in London. Or if they frequently appear at meetings held by Spiritualist churches, that can be a good indication, as the organization would usually check out a psychic carefully before booking them. However some psychics do just practise from home and don't have any qualifications so you have to rely on your judgement. Word of mouth can be another good way of finding a good psychic.

 

http://www.pinkfridge.com/f_psychics/find.htm

 

I don't know about you but there were a few things I didn't know in that article.

 

I found a link to a clip from Sylvia if any of you are interested.

Take a good look at the people and what she's telling them.

 

http://www.medicinefilms.com/player.php?clip_id=181692

 

Just one more, this one is good...

 

The Bottom Line

 

Except in the extremely rare case in which a psychic was actually involved in the crime or had apparently received secret information (as from a tip), psychics do not lead police to concealed bodies or unknown assailants.

 

A far more serious problem exists with regard to the wasted resources of police departments who expend precious time and human activity in following up on a psychic's meaningless "clues." In one instance, for example, the Nutley, New Jersey, police spent the whole of an afternoon digging up a drainage ditch that Dorothy Allison mistakenly thought contained the body of a missing boy.

 

In brief, knowledgeable police officials resist the temptation to employ psychics, knowing that their claims lack any scientific verification. No longer should police solve crimes and let publicity-seeking occult pretenders take the credit.

 

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/vor_p...ics_041109.html

 

Just some food for thought...

[euphgeek]

 

I don't believe there's anything magical about being psychic any more than there's anything magical about being a musician. You said yourself that our brains give off and are made up of energy. What if there's some way for another brain to tap into that and we've been writing it off all this time just because we think it's "magic" or "supernatural" and therefore can't possibly exist?

 

 

I suppose someone who believes in ghosts would think that (not that I'm implying you do), or someone who believes in destiny. The energy you transfer from your brain isn't going to create some kind of magical passageway that tells you every thing about someone you've never met. It's especially not going to give you a mental passport to another world (after-life).

Why would someone have to believe in ghosts or destiny to accept what may be a perfectly natural function of the brain? And why couldn't someone else's brain pick up in some way on the subtle energy a person's brain is giving out?

If and only if we can channel (not transfer) our own energy to an object we may be able to move things, sure, it's a force, but maybe not. I admit there is a such thing as "psychic energy," however it's not quite the same thing as we've been talking about here. I don't think channeling energy would matter in the way of telling the future. Its not tapping into another brain, its giving energy. If everyone's giving who's getting?

 

Lets look at the actual definition of the word...

 

psychic

 

adj 1: pertaining to forces or mental processes outside the possibilities defined by natural or scientific laws; "psychic reader"; "psychical research" [syn: psychical] 2: affecting or influenced by the human mind; "psychic energy"; "psychic trauma" [syn: psychical] 3: outside the sphere of physical science; "psychic phenomena" [syn: psychical] n : a person apparently sensitive to things beyond the natural range of perception

 

I found something interesting...

 

Be wary of:

 

Unrealistic claims such as being able to give you winning numbers in Lottery, or find your soul mate;

 

Expensive phone lines where the person on the phone will try and carry on the phone call as long as possible as the call is charged per minute;

 

Cold reading. A technique which involves manipulating the subject to make them think they are being provided with great insights, for instance making suggestions and seeing how the subject responds. This technique is often helped by the subject's willingness to believe in the psychic's paranormal powers;

 

People who tell you are cursed or going to die; real psychics should not tell you this sort of information.

 

A real psychic should be happy for you to ask some questions before you commit to paying for a sitting or a reading. They should also allow you record the session; this is common practice as it allows you to refer back to it in the future and you can forget details from the reading quite quickly.

 

Be clear about what you expect from the psychic - he or she may have genuine psychic powers but may not address issues you wanted to address. Different psychics have different specializations - for instance psychic healing is very different from mediumship and so on.

 

Genuine psychics may have undergone some form of training or be attached to some recognized organization such as the College of Psychic Studies in London. Or if they frequently appear at meetings held by Spiritualist churches, that can be a good indication, as the organization would usually check out a psychic carefully before booking them. However some psychics do just practise from home and don't have any qualifications so you have to rely on your judgement. Word of mouth can be another good way of finding a good psychic.

 

http://www.pinkfridge.com/f_psychics/find.htm

 

I don't know about you but there were a few things I didn't know in that article.

I've heard a lot of those tips before. In fact, the medium I went to gave me a tape recording of the session. I referred to it in order to verify things I had forgotten when I posted what she told me.

I found a link to a clip from Sylvia if any of you are interested.

Take a good look at the people and what she's telling them.

 

http://www.medicinefilms.com/player.php?clip_id=181692

The clip wasn't really long enough for me to tell for sure, but it does seem like she was cold reading them.

Just one more, this one is good...

 

The Bottom Line

 

Except in the extremely rare case in which a psychic was actually involved in the crime or had apparently received secret information (as from a tip), psychics do not lead police to concealed bodies or unknown assailants.

 

A far more serious problem exists with regard to the wasted resources of police departments who expend precious time and human activity in following up on a psychic's meaningless "clues." In one instance, for example, the Nutley, New Jersey, police spent the whole of an afternoon digging up a drainage ditch that Dorothy Allison mistakenly thought contained the body of a missing boy.

 

In brief, knowledgeable police officials resist the temptation to employ psychics, knowing that their claims lack any scientific verification. No longer should police solve crimes and let publicity-seeking occult pretenders take the credit.

 

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/vor_p...ics_041109.html

 

Just some food for thought...

Yeah, I'd expect something like that from a member of CSICOP.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

The idea that the brain is made up of energy, and that somehow that energy should be able to reach outside the brain grabbing up other energy is a bunch of facile sounding nonsense. If by "the brain is made of energy" you mean that there is a small electrical charge within the brain, you are correct. This electrical energy serves to stimulate the production of chemicals which actually carry out the actions of the brain. The overwhelming majority of brain activity is chemical. There is no reason to assume that that small electrical charge carries any sophisticated information, so the belief that we could somehow extract, supernaturally, "magically" any thing from this "energy" just sounds a little stupid, especially without the slightest hypothesis as to the mechanism of this miraculous transfer.

 

If, on the other hand, by stating that the "brain is made up of energy" you are trying the spiritualists specious sing-song that "all matter is energy and vice versa" then you're no different from the person who quotes me the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to prove creationism. Sure, the matter in your brain could be converted to heat energy if I burned it, but as it stands, the brain in your head is made of matter, not energy. It's a silly smoke screen that only reveals your childish thought processes and general hope and belief in fairies. If that's what you meant, that is.

 

If you mean something entirely different, please explain.

[euphgeek]

I idea that the brain is made up of energy, and that somehow that energy should be able to reach outside the brain grabbing up other energy is a bunch of facile sounding nonsense. If by "the brain is made of energy" you mean that there is a small electrical charge within the brain, you are correct. This electrical energy serves to stimulate the production of chemicals which actually carry out the actions of the brain. The overwhelming majority of brain activity is chemical. There is no reason to assume that that small electrical charge carries any sophisticated information, so the belief that we could somehow extract, supernaturally, "magically" any thing from this "energy" just sounds a little stupid, especially without the slightest hypothesis as to the mechanism of this miraculous transfer.

There you go again, using words like "magically" and "supernaturally" as if anything science hasn't explained yet must be one of these two things. Honestly, your position seems to be the more irrational and illogical one to me.

If, on the other hand, by stating that the "brain is made up of energy" you are trying the spiritualists specious sing-song that "all matter is energy and vice versa" then you're no different from the person who quotes me the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to prove creationism. Sure, the matter in your brain could be converted to heat energy if I burned it, but as it stands, the brain in your head is made of matter, not energy. It's a silly smoke screen that only reveals your childish thought processes and general hope and belief in fairies. If that's what you meant, that is.

What is matter made up of? At the very basic level, we are all made up of atoms, right? Unless I am mistaken, atoms are made of nothing but charges of electricity, or energy. And if I am mistaken, please correct my misconception.

If you mean something entirely different, please explain.

Simply that there is something happening that science has yet to explain. That doesn't make it supernatural or magical, just unexplained. Falling back on the old "it's unexplained therefore it's magic" is a very close-minded and illogical mindset.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

There you go again, using words like "magically" and "supernaturally" as if anything science hasn't explained yet must be one of these two things. Honestly, your position seems to be the more irrational and illogical one to me.

 

Until you come up with an actual natural mechanism that would allow the magical sorts of interactions that you are speaking of, then I will continue to refer to it as supernatural. Should I not refer to fairies as "magical" simply because science doesn't understand them? You obviously already believe that psychic phenomena is geniune, because of your mystical experience with a dime store psychic, so you are grasping at anything in the ether that might support your belief.

 

 

What is matter made up of? At the very basic level, we are all made up of atoms, right? Unless I am mistaken, atoms are made of nothing but charges of electricity, or energy. And if I am mistaken, please correct my misconception.

 

No matter how insubstantial the fabric of matter becomes on the quantum level, the fact remains that matter behaves differently than energy and vice versa on the macro scale where we all live. If you are going to extrapolate to the nth degree then we should all be assuming that rocks and toadstools can read our minds as well, after all, they are nothing but vibrating energy if you look deeply enough. Unless you can connect the macro and micro in any meaningful way, you have nothing but a hopeful speculation. The matter of your brain behaves like matter, not energy. Matter can be converted to energy, as I said, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

 

Simply that there is something happening that science has yet to explain. That doesn't make it supernatural or magical, just unexplained. Falling back on the old "it's unexplained therefore it's magic" is a very close-minded and illogical mindset.

 

"Psychic penomena" have been explained by a host of reasons, among them are chicanery, trickery, cold reading etc. You are assuming that there is another outlandish explaination without any evidence. I have never said "it's unexplained there fore it's magic", I have said that it doesn't happen and that it's bullshit. Assuming that it does actually happen it would require some supernatural process. Your tripe about the brain's energy is a red herring.

[AtheistMommy]

Why would someone have to believe in ghosts or destiny to accept what may be a perfectly natural function of the brain? And why couldn't someone else's brain pick up in some way on the subtle energy a person's brain is giving out?

 

How can you expect someone to know your future without it being predestined? The things someone tells you about yourself are easy enough for anyone to do, that part isn't magical. The dead realities and what will happen next in your life, on the other hand, are totally off base.

 

The brain is able to expel, it doesn't, however, get or receive. So it's safe to assume that the probability is extremely low that someone's brain would do the latter. And if it did, wouldn't that mean that their entire brain make up would be extremely different?

 

I've heard a lot of those tips before. In fact, the medium I went to gave me a tape recording of the session. I referred to it in order to verify things I had forgotten when I posted what she told me.

 

Funny or not, I went to a medium when I was a kid (of course not by choice) and there was a tape recording. A lot of the things she said were true, but could also be applied to most children. She said things like, creative, smart, active, artistic. She went on to talk about my "future." Keep in mind, I am a minority. She told my mother that I would marry into some money but that I wouldn't be richy rich. She said, I'd have "everything I needed." That's not exactly where I am today. But saying something like this would give a mother a sense of confidence, don't you think?

 

My mother ate it up like cake. She treated me as if these things had already happened. What do you think happens when someone believes what was said is true?

 

Yeah, I'd expect something like that from a member of CSICOP.

 

Yes, it was very skeptical. However I gave you one of each in my links.

[Lorena Rodriguez]

Re: Sylvia Brown

 

I like to read and hear all kinds of people. Then, if they happen to say something brilliant, I take note of it. Keep the THOUGHT and forget about the PERSON.

 

I believe it is a good idea to stay away from following people, anybody. It is better to follow OURSELVES.

 

We will never know about other people's agendas. So better concentrate on loving ourselves, listening to ourselves, and in gathering our OWN philosophy of life.

 

Idol worship is what drives people to religion, so it is a no-no for me.

 

 

 

Funny or not, I went to a medium when I was a kid (of course not by choice) and there was a tape recording. A lot of the things she said were true, but could also be applied to most children. She said things like, creative, smart, active, artistic. She went on to talk about my "future." Keep in mind, I am a minority. She told my mother that I would marry into some money but that I wouldn't be richy rich. She said, I'd have "everything I needed." That's not exactly where I am today. But saying something like this would give a mother a sense of confidence, don't you think?

 

My mother ate it up like cake. She treated me as if these things had already happened. What do you think happens when someone believes what was said is true?

 

 

The mind is powerful, too. If somebody tells me that I'm going to have an accident and I believe it, I will probably get into one.

[Lorena Rodriguez]

Why would someone have to believe in ghosts or destiny to accept what may be a perfectly natural function of the brain? And why couldn't someone else's brain pick up in some way on the subtle energy a person's brain is giving out?

 

(1) Because even if they "know" my future, what good is it for me to learn about it?

(2) Because if they can figure it out, from of energy emissions or whatever, then I should be able to figure out my own future too. And I probably can, if I just pay attention and look at my life rationally. I can also draw my future with good planning and wise living.

(3) Because by believing in their "gift" I open myself up to morons who are only after my money. I become an easy target.

(4) Because even if I give out energy, which I probably do because people always know when I am angry or happy, I don't want to voluntarily submit to another's interpretation of my energy.

 

It all comes down to trust. I don't trust ANYONE with my life: nor my present nor my future. A psychic with a 1-900 number won't ever earn my trust.

[euphgeek]

There you go again, using words like "magically" and "supernaturally" as if anything science hasn't explained yet must be one of these two things. Honestly, your position seems to be the more irrational and illogical one to me.

 

Until you come up with an actual natural mechanism that would allow the magical sorts of interactions that you are speaking of, then I will continue to refer to it as supernatural. Should I not refer to fairies as "magical" simply because science doesn't understand them? You obviously already believe that psychic phenomena is geniune, because of your mystical experience with a dime store psychic, so you are grasping at anything in the ether that might support your belief.

I don't see how keeping my mind open to all possibilities, even the possibility that I may be wrong, is "grasping at anything in the ether that might support [my] belief." I simply think that there is a better explanation for certain things than "magic" or "supernatural". Obviously, you think that there is such thing as magic. I do not.

What is matter made up of? At the very basic level, we are all made up of atoms, right? Unless I am mistaken, atoms are made of nothing but charges of electricity, or energy. And if I am mistaken, please correct my misconception.

 

No matter how insubstantial the fabric of matter becomes on the quantum level, the fact remains that matter behaves differently than energy and vice versa on the macro scale where we all live. If you are going to extrapolate to the nth degree then we should all be assuming that rocks and toadstools can read our minds as well, after all, they are nothing but vibrating energy if you look deeply enough. Unless you can connect the macro and micro in any meaningful way, you have nothing but a hopeful speculation. The matter of your brain behaves like matter, not energy. Matter can be converted to energy, as I said, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

My point, that you seem to acknowledge, is that matter is made of energy (atoms). I'm not suggesting that all energy has consciousness.

Simply that there is something happening that science has yet to explain. That doesn't make it supernatural or magical, just unexplained. Falling back on the old "it's unexplained therefore it's magic" is a very close-minded and illogical mindset.

 

"Psychic penomena" have been explained by a host of reasons, among them are chicanery, trickery, cold reading etc. You are assuming that there is another outlandish explaination without any evidence. I have never said "it's unexplained there fore it's magic", I have said that it doesn't happen and that it's bullshit. Assuming that it does actually happen it would require some supernatural process. Your tripe about the brain's energy is a red herring.

If you want to believe it's bullshit, that's fine with me. I'd rather keep an open mind in the face of evidence I've seen that cannot, to my satisfaction, be explained away by chicanery, trickery or cold reading by a "dime store psychic". And if that makes me a "credulous woowoo" in your eyes, then so be it. I'd rather be seen as that than believe that science knows all there is to know about everything.

 

How can you expect someone to know your future without it being predestined? The things someone tells you about yourself is easy enough for anyone to do, that part isn't magical. The dead realities and what will happen next in your life, totally off base.

Ah, I see where we're miscommunicating; you're talking about the future and I'm talking about future possibilities.

Funny or not, I went to a medium when I was a kid (of course not by choice) and there was a tape recording. A lot of the things she said were true, but could also be applied to most children. She said things like, creative, smart, active, artistic. She went on to talk about my "future." Keep in mind, I am a minority. She told my mother that I would marry into some money but that I wouldn't be richy rich. She said, I'd have "everything I needed." That's not exactly where I am today. But saying something like this would give a mother a sense of confidence, don't you think?

 

My mother ate it up like cake. She treated me as if these things had already happened. What do you think happens when someone believes what was said is true?

Sure, there are people who make a psychic prediction a self-fulfilling prophecy. I never denied that. That can even happen with legitimate psychic readings.

Yeah, I'd expect something like that from a member of CSICOP.

 

Yes, it was very skeptical. However I gave you one of each in my links.

I appreciate it. I like to read both sides.

 

Re: Sylvia Brown

 

I like to read and hear all kinds of people. Then, if they happen to say something brilliant, I take note of it. Keep the THOUGHT and forget about the PERSON.

 

I believe it is a good idea to stay away from following people, anybody. It is better to follow OURSELVES.

 

We will never know about other people's agendas. So better concentrate on loving ourselves, listening to ourselves, and in gathering our OWN philosophy of life.

 

Idol worship is what drives people to religion, so it is a no-no for me.

I agree. In all things we should strive to keep the good stuff and discard the bad stuff and not put other people up on a pedestal.

 

Why would someone have to believe in ghosts or destiny to accept what may be a perfectly natural function of the brain? And why couldn't someone else's brain pick up in some way on the subtle energy a person's brain is giving out?

 

(1) Because even if they "know" my future, what good is it for me to learn about it?

(2) Because if they can figure it out, from of energy emissions or whatever, then I should be able to figure out my own future too. And I probably can, if I just pay attention and look at my life rationally. I can also draw my future with good planning and wise living.

(3) Because by believing in their "gift" I open myself up to morons who are only after my money. I become an easy target.

(4) Because even if I give out energy, which I probably do because people always know when I am angry or happy, I don't want to voluntarily submit to another's interpretation of my energy.

 

It all comes down to trust. I don't trust ANYONE with my life: nor my present nor my future. A psychic with a 1-900 number won't ever earn my trust.

That's some good food for thought. But again, why would one need to believe in ghosts or destiny? And if it is possible, I think it deserves more scientific study.

[AtheistMommy]

Ah, I see where we're miscommunicating; you're talking about the future and I'm talking about future possibilities.

 

What's the difference between predicting the future and predicting future possibilities?

 

Sure, there are people who make a psychic prediction a self-fulfilling prophecy. I never denied that. That can even happen with legitimate psychic readings.

 

If you tell someone their future, do we agree that it hasn't happened yet? If so, wouldn't this put the idea in that person's head that what has been predicted is to be true? And if so, doesn't this fall under "self-fulfilling prophecy?" If so, wouldn't that make most, if not all future predictions also "self-fulfilling prophecies?"

 

 

I appreciate it. I like to read both sides.

 

I too, like to read opinions and information from both sides of the coin. It helps me form my own opinion.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I don't see how keeping my mind open to all possibilities, even the possibility that I may be wrong, is "grasping at anything in the ether that might support [my] belief." I simply think that there is a better explanation for certain things than "magic" or "supernatural". Obviously, you think that there is such thing as magic. I do not.

 

Jesus, you're obtuse. I do not believe in magic. I do not believe there is evidence of anything supernatural in your psychic phenomena. I don't believe that there is some as yet unknown natural phenomena at work either. Known forces like deliberate deception and the reaping of the fruits of gullbility seem sufficient to explain the supposed "supernatural" shit I've seen.

 

If someday I observe something which I believe has no natural explanation then I might perhaps look for a supernatural or as yet unknown natural force to explain it. First I exhast known natural possibilities. You jump straight to woowooing.

 

By the way, you are not keeping your mind open to all possibilites. You have a preference, and your mind is open to that possibility more than any other. Are you still open to the idea that psychic phenomena is caused by the Baby Jesus? Don't bullshit me.

 

My point, that you seem to acknowledge, is that matter is made of energy (atoms). I'm not suggesting that all energy has consciousness.

 

That is most certainly not your point. Your point is that matter is made of energy so it should behave like energy and that should have some psychic consequences. Matter is made up of atoms which is made up of subatomic particles which are made up of quarks and so on. To say that matter is made of energy therefore matter is energy is misleading. Matter behaves completely differently than energy.

 

 

I'd rather be seen as that than believe that science knows all there is to know about everything

 

Hey fuckstick, who said that science knows everything about everything? We're not talking about gravity here. We're not talking about something we all can agree exists. We're talking about something that only a few people have ever claimed to observe and they can't repeat their experiences for scientific scrutiny. Science, by the way, doesn't "know" anything. It's the best method humans have discovered for determining what is true. If your phenomena will not stand up to scientific scrutiny I see no reason to think of it as anything other than bullshit.

 

Of course we are all free to believe what we wish, it's just that some of our beliefs are stupid.

[euphgeek]

Ah, I see where we're miscommunicating; you're talking about the future and I'm talking about future possibilities.

 

What's the difference between predicting the future and predicting future possibilities?

Predicting the future means saying what will definitely happen. Predicting future possibilities means saying what may happen given certain actions. In the latter case, there is more than one future.

Sure, there are people who make a psychic prediction a self-fulfilling prophecy. I never denied that. That can even happen with legitimate psychic readings.

 

If you tell someone their future, do we agree that it hasn't happened yet? If so, wouldn't this put the idea in that person's head that what has been predicted is to be true? And if so, doesn't this fall under "self-fulfilling prophecy?" If so, wouldn't that make most, if not all future predictions also "self-fulfilling prophecies?"

In a sense, perhaps. Of course it's always up to the person to follow the psychic's advice. Free will means a future prediction is never guaranteed.

I appreciate it. I like to read both sides.

 

I too, like to read opinions and information from both sides of the coin. It helps me form my own opinion.

Have you read these pages yet?

http://www.near-death.com

http://www.geocities.com/wwu777us/Debunkin...l_Arguments.htm

[euphgeek]

Darn, I messed up that last link because I was in a hurry. Here it is again:

 

http://www.geocities.com/wwu777us/Debunkin...l_Arguments.htm

[Renfield]

You may want to read this

 

http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/winstonwu.htm

[euphgeek]

You may want to read this

 

http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/winstonwu.htm

I already have. In fact, Winston even links to that page at the link I provided.

[euphgeek]

Jesus, you're obtuse. I do not believe in magic.

Then you're building strawmen and being deliberately dishonest. If you want to do that, you should have an argument with yourself and leave me out of it.

I do not believe there is evidence of anything supernatural in your psychic phenomena.

Neither do I.

I don't believe that there is some as yet unknown natural phenomena at work either. Known forces like deliberate deception and the reaping of the fruits of gullbility seem sufficient to explain the supposed "supernatural" shit I've seen.

That's fine. I'm not trying to prove to you that any of it is real. I'm just saying that keeping an open mind based on the evidence I've seen does not make me a "credulous woowoo".

If someday I observe something which I believe has no natural explanation then I might perhaps look for a supernatural or as yet unknown natural force to explain it. First I exhast known natural possibilities. You jump straight to woowooing.

That is patently false, and I'll thank you to stop lying about me. If you think the only way you can win an argument is by dishonesty, you have already lost.

By the way, you are not keeping your mind open to all possibilites. You have a preference, and your mind is open to that possibility more than any other. Are you still open to the idea that psychic phenomena is caused by the Baby Jesus? Don't bullshit me.

It's true that I lean one way more than the other because I've had the experiences and seen the evidence first-hand. But if someone could explain it to my satisfaction as something other than what I perceived it to be, I would change my mind in an instant.

That is most certainly not your point. Your point is that matter is made of energy so it should behave like energy and that should have some psychic consequences. Matter is made up of atoms which is made up of subatomic particles which are made up of quarks and so on. To say that matter is made of energy therefore matter is energy is misleading. Matter behaves completely differently than energy.

It most certainly is my point. I never said matter "should" behave like energy, just that it may be able to give off energy which someone else may be able to pick up on.

Hey fuckstick, who said that science knows everything about everything? We're not talking about gravity here. We're not talking about something we all can agree exists. We're talking about something that only a few people have ever claimed to observe and they can't repeat their experiences for scientific scrutiny. Science, by the way, doesn't "know" anything. It's the best method humans have discovered for determining what is true. If your phenomena will not stand up to scientific scrutiny I see no reason to think of it as anything other than bullshit.

In fact, some people have repeated their experiences for scientific scrutiny and turned up better than average results. And I have not yet seen any validity to the claim that somehow all of those experiments were fixed just because it wasn't repeatable 100% of the time.

Of course we are all free to believe what we wish, it's just that some of our beliefs are stupid.

And that is exactly the condescending attitude of pseudo-skeptical cynics that I've been talking about.

[NotBlinded]

Even though I don't believe in Bible God and all that stuff I'm still into the afterlife, angels, spirits, and psychics.

 

Anyway, I am a huge fan of Sylvia Brown; I was even when I was a X-tian. Now, I am starting to realize something peculiar about her.

 

Even though she says that god is impartial and that no one is going to rot in hell and etc...I notice that she always invokes the name of The Holy Spirit, Christ Consciousness, AND in one of her books she talks about Jesus being Lord...But later, in the same book, she contradicts herself and states that all great religious figures(Buddha, Jesus, Ghandi, and Dali Lama)are all avatars of god...

 

Sometimes I think she's forreal, but I keep wondering is she pushing a Christian agenda...Most psychics don't point to certain religions...

I think she is just speaking the language of the majority of the people that she is addressing...Christians. But, it doesn't matter to her because they all point to God. The religious figures are avatars; they just speak different languages to point to the same thing.

 

Now, the psychic part...I can't judge. There may be something to it, but I don't know. I'm pretty sure she said that there would be a cure for breast cancer by the year 2006. I haven't seen it yet. There may be, but they're not telling.

 

I know I have had bad feelings prior to something bad happening, but I can't say with certainty that they had anything to do with each other. So...I'm agnostic.

[lothartx]

Just got to The Amazing Randi's website and you'll find out all you need to know about that crook and other like her.

 

I don't buy into the psychic B.S. anymore than xtian B.S.

 

My two cents worth.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I'm not going to take sides in some petty argument between a die-hard skeptic and his polar opposite. Or whatever.

 

Somebody mentioned PSICOP....I've seen them on TV more than a few times. To me it just seems they're merely finding the answers they already have; finding what they want to find, in the same way an uber-spiritualist quack will have definitive proof and know beyond a reasonable doubt that ghosts did, in fact, rock that table and it wasn't the medium's foot doing it.

 

However, I can't help but think that there is some kind of "energy". It is true that unless one is too caught up in one's own emotions, it's kind of hard to walk into a room where an argument just took place, and NOT feel that argument floating around in the air. It's not that anyone looks different, or even has a different facial expression. But I dare say that it feels like unless one is so full of energy (emotion) that one effectively blocks out any other, it's the energy of that argument still in the air.

 

I personally do not believe that all matter *IS* energy; I think all matter, rather, or perhaps just living matter, creates or sends out energy. Everything in our bodies, every atom, is constantly in motion - if your electrons and neutrons stopped rotating around your nucleus, you'd be screwed. Motion creates heat, and that's energy. There's also the superstring theory, which I find fascinating.....but still, just a theory.

 

The fact is we won't know what's what until we can see what's beyond what makes up our atoms. I think they've gotten to the point where they know what make up the electrons and neutrons, but beyond that, I don't think so. It's really quite incredible to think, that there must be SOMETHING beyond which no more hairs can be split, the ULTIMATE SUBSTANCE that makes up everything that bounces around inside every single atom's innermost recesses.

 

Really when you think about it, we've managed to explore (and totally ruin) one single measly planet and its rather boring moon. We can build bombs that can wipe out an entire large-sized city in a matter of seconds with years of dangerous health effects on the pitiful remaining populace, but we still can't figure out how to cure the common cold. I think we're a pretty primitive species. An open mind is merely one that admits that anything is possible. I often wonder if we're like the chimps at the zoo. Aliens coast by on their spacecraft and point us out to their kids, who giggle at our sillyness, but know damned well better than to try to enter our cage, lest some of the shit we're constantly flinging at each other lands on their faces. Is eating the seared flesh of dead animals really all that high up the ladder from quenching your thirst with your own piss?

 

Whoa. I've gone way off. Anyway I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think relying entirely on science in its current form is its way to go. First and foremost, because all too many times science is a lot like religion: wrapped up in partisanism and die-hard convictions made by people too interested in opposing each other rather than coming to any real revelations or discoveries. Also because science is constantly in flux. Three hundred years ago, science had "proven" that sickness was spread by roving invisible clouds of "sick" air. Imagine the shit you'd be in if you took THAT to be Gospel.

 

I think science and spirituality have a wonderful ability to work together and prove the other true - if only they could get off the idea that their entire purpose is to drive the other guy down.

 

Just a jab in the argu- er, conversation here. Not my problem and I shouldn't talk so much. Carry on.

[euphgeek]

Just got to The Amazing Randi's website and you'll find out all you need to know about that crook and other like her.

 

I don't buy into the psychic B.S. anymore than xtian B.S.

 

My two cents worth.

Sorry, I don't believe in James Randi.

[euphgeek]

Sage, that was a great post! A lot of food for thought in that.

[Renfield]

But I dare say that it feels like unless one is so full of energy (emotion) that one effectively blocks out any other, it's the energy of that argument still in the air.

And I thought I was just reading body language.

 

Sooooo can anyone tell me how much energy is expended while telling the future, communicating with the dead or reading energy that is just floating around a room?