Why Atheism....

[I Broke Free]

I thought it was pretty simple.

 

 

Just wait! Someone will come in with a correction.

 

5-4-3-2-1 NOW!

[MrSpooky]

Thanks, I have heard other Atheists refer to atheism as a default position and I am genuinely curious to understand it since it isn't a statement that is intuitive to me. I understand your analogy to pierced ears, however, I'm trying to make it fit. Perhaps you had a underlying skepticism that I've never had and that would explain why you see Atheism as the default position?

 

fwiw

guac.

 

A LACK of an EXPLICIT belief is always an epistemically default position. Atheism is in some aspects an IMPLICIT position (that is, a non-explicit position).

 

Think of it this way... a kid grows up without ever experiencing Christmas (but let's say he celebrates Winter-Een-Mas instead so we don't feel sorry for the little fella). One day he is exposed to the Christmas tradition, and in that he is taught about how Santa Claus gives out presents.

 

So he thinks, "Oh wow! Now I believe in Santa Claus' existence!"

 

So the question is... did the kid know about Santa Claus before he was taught about the concept? No, certainly not. It is in much the same way that people do not know about God until the concept is presented to him or he comes up with the concept on his own.

 

So the kid goes along, reading about Santa Claus. One day, he comes across the horrible revelation that there is NO EVIDENCE for Santa's Existence. As a result, the kid, a little more mature by now, says "Oh darn... there's nothing to say that Santa is real."

 

He can do several things...

 

1. Reject the belief in Santa outright until evidence is presented in regards to Santa's existence (the Rationalist approach)

2. No longer consider Santa as a solid explicit belief and thereby withhold judgement on the matter (the Agnostic approach)

3. Still believe in Santa and pin all his Christmas hopes on him (the Irrational approach)

 

Notice that the first two are analgous to Negative Atheism and Agnostic Atheism, respectively, while the third is analgous to Dogmatic Theism (though certainly there are other forms of Theism... the Dogmatic form is just the worst one).

[Ian]

For me it is a simple issue of just not believing...I never had a sense of the supernatural..I put christianity on the same level as any other religion (Islam,Hinduism,Animist..etc) no better no worse. I just don't believe in any of them.

[Guest MalaInSe]

I'm curious as to why people chose Atheism when they rejected Christianity instead of another form of theism (Those of you who took another form of theism instead of Atheism can feel free to comment as well).

 

Specifically, I'm curious as to what exactly seemed to sour you to theism in general as well as Christianity specifically. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, Christianity was the only form of theism I ever knew. It just didn't really make sense to seek out another one, when I had just gone through all the trauma of discarding one. The fact that one appeared to be without foundation did not in any way reassure me about the validity of any of the other ones.

 

Honestly though, I don't know that it's particularly normal to turn to another form of theism. I went to a particularly fundamentalist church, and they worked hard to ensure that I already had a healthy distrust of anything that wasn't that particular form of religion.

 

I'm an atheist because I have seen no evidence of any kind of cognizant deity. In fact, the existence of the Christian god seems to conflict with the laws of nature and logic. I'm also with many that have already expressed the opinion that, if some god exists, he really doesn't care what I think of him.

 

Renee

[chefranden]

I went from Christianity to Zen, because I needed something "spiritual" to do and a way to contain my fucked-up-ness (turned out to be PTSD).

 

I chose Zen I think because it doesn't have a god, and also because I'd already studied it. Perhaps I didn't want to be disappointed again, but I figured that all gods suffered the same defects as BibleGod. In addition, I had spent years not believing in all the rest. It is difficult to watch your favorite god disappear in the mist and then just bang get into another god relationship.

 

I like Spong's work, but I found him too late, I think. I'd already been out 8 or 9 years. Spong has a long way to go to subtract theism from Christianity and get something on the order of Christian Zen.

 

By the way, I don't practice any more. After several years of fighting the idea, I started taking the pills the VA had been sticking in my face. My fucked-up-ness has been medicated to mere frelled-up-ness. I don't have to make such a conscious effort to maintain a semblance of sanity.

[Amethyst]

Not all of us here are atheists. You're lumping us into categories, and then saying either you believe in the existence of a deity or you don't. You're ignoring the shades of gray, which many Christians tend to do because that's how the religion is -- there's only black and white, no in-between. Well, the gray is more realistic.

 

I'm agnostic. I'm willing to admit that I don't know whether there is a god, but I don't believe it is the Christian version of god. I'm more willing to believe in a Tao-like energy force than a superintelligent being, where there is no proof of his/her existence other than hearsay. As Thomas Paine once said, "It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence." At least, the energy force thing might be proven by scientific means someday.

[Mike D]

I'm curious as to why people chose Atheism when they rejected Christianity

Hi guac,

 

As badboy and black sheep as it sounds to "reject" Christianity, it really isn't anything dramatic like that. At least for me it wasn't. It was just a slow progressive disbelief, and one day I just realized I no longer believed. I wouldn't say I "chose" atheism either. As I no longer believed in god, society felt it necessary to give me a label - atheist. In my opinion there isn't really anything all that appealing about atheism (to be quite honest), so it isn't exactly something I would go out of my way to chose. I just sort of ended up that way.

 

But I do believe I started out atheist, as a small child I had no concept of God until my mom took me to church for the first time, a day that I remember very clearly. She explained to me who God was and why we should believe in him and love him (so he won't throw us into hell and torture us). I was pretty scared after that so I believed just because I didn't want God to harm me. When I was a kid Christianity made sense to me, but as I became a teenager and really started to think about it, there were too many things about it that didn't make sense to me. I had read some of the Bible but I got to a certain point where I knew in the back of my mind if I wanted to keep the remaining faith I had, I could not continue to read the Bible. The more I read of it and the more I learned, the less Christianity was what I was originally told it was, and what I thought it was. Anyway I held on to it for several years until I finally decided I wanted to know the truth, whatever that may be. And that brought me to where I am now.

[dogmatically_challenged]

If there are gods they know what I'm all about. And how to reach me. Until then I see no reason to listen to everyones silly stories. Whats the point in the gods trying to reach me through story books when I am right here.

 

The only way the gods could give me confidence is through consistant interaction that I can be aware of through my physical senses. Its true that if a godthingy did such a thing I could never really know if it was really the creator of everything, but I could develop a faith through godthingy being consistant with me and others in love and logic.

[nightflight]

I'm agnostic too. I just don't know. I find it hard to fathom the universe coming into existence by itself or always existing, but at the same time I have doubts about a god being involved in this world.

 

I think that when some people give up xianity, their minds are free for the first time to question everything about their former religion.

[spamandham]

I read through some of the "antimonys" in the other forum and I noticed that there are quite a few people who, the vast majority it seemed to me, who became atheists after repudiating Christianity. 

 

I'm curious as to why people chose Atheism when they rejected Christianity instead of another form of theism (Those of you who took another form of theism instead of Atheism can feel free to comment as well).

 

If you come to understand why those of us here who used to be Christians rejected Christianity, you'll understand why most of us have rejected faith altogether.

 

Faith is unreasonable. Since there is simply no credible evidence for the existence of undetectable invisible beings, belief in gods is not reasonable. That's why I'm an atheist.

 

That is not to say that I can prove the nonexistence of such beings, because I can't. Since it's impossible to prove the existence of something defined to be nonfalsifiable, it's also impossible to prove its nonexistence.

 

Technically, that makes me an agnostic, but since most theists think 'agnostic' means 'undecided', I prefer the more explicit label 'atheist', to make it completely clear that I do not see any reason to believe in gods. Since there is no reason to believe in them, I don't believe in them.

 

Atheism is the default position because it's the position arrived at through reason. That doesn't make it true, but it does make it reasonable.

 

What credible evidence suggests the existence of such invisible beings?

[pitchu]

I became an atheist in my teens when I realized that if someone else hadn't thought up the god-thing, I certainly wouldn't have.

 

Btw, I, personally always say, "I don't hold any concept of a god" as opposed to, "I don't believe in God." The latter posits God's existence, then denies it. (That's where a lot of misunderstanding about and animosity toward atheists comes from, I think.)

[dogmatically_challenged]

"I don't hold any concept of a god"

 

pitchu I am afraid I must steal this from you, it is EXACTLY my view.

[Asimov]

never had a concept for a god except what others believed, and even then it seemed like some ambiguous term.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

Yes to that. Being an athiest isn't always because you were first a Christian; I grew up with Lutheran and Catholic parents who never took me to church, never had me read the Bible, and who basically did nothing to nurture faith except give me animated Bible adventures which I never thought were real to begin with. When I told my mother I was an athiest, all she said was, "No you're not." I said yes I was; then she asked how I could possibly be one. How? Shit, how could I not? What rational or proof was I ever given in life to believe God over, say, Zeus, Amaterasu, or Santa Claus? Christians will reject any other gods as pagan or demons, but it's perfectly fine to believe in a Trinity that's more of a Square that demands you practice ritual cannibalism in some sects and a special kind of bath to spiritually save you. It's spiritual agoraphobia as far as I see it, and I'm no worse off for it; hell, I seem to be more put together than most of the blatantly Christian people I know.

[guacamole]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys, and keep 'em coming. I don't think I'll be able to comment on every single one but I've read every single one, I can assure you.

 

First off, to everyone who did, thanks for explaining the idea of "default position" to me. It makes a lot more sense to me now to have read it from multiple points of view. I'm still not sure that I buy it, but I'll think about it. I think my biggest problem with it is the difference between implicit and explicit positions as expounded by Mr. Spooky. I'm not sure that I think atheism, when it becomes a sophisticated body of thought complete with apologetics, corrolaries and subdoctrines can further count as an implicit position. Granted, that could be partially on account of the theoretical "arms race" that occurs as the two sides try to bludgeon each other silly with arguments. I'm genuinely not trying to be thick, so let me think about this a bit more since I don't want to waste your time with muddled thinking. Even though I've had my coffee it isn't the afternoon yet...

 

Secondly, while I wasn't necessarily trying to get at the difference between atheists and agnostics, the happy providence on the discussion was helpful. I like the idea of agnosticism being an "epistemic" distinction as opposed to a "metaphysical distinction", so thanks (I think used Mr. Spooky's words there but alot of you helped).

 

Not all of us here are atheists. You're lumping us into categories, and then saying either you believe in the existence of a deity or you don't. You're ignoring the shades of gray, which many Christians tend to do because that's how the religion is -- there's only black and white, no in-between. Well, the gray is more realistic.

 

True. By habit I resorted to labels and it's hard to get across the vibrancy and eclectic nature of belief and non-belief in a way that is meant to be a shorthand expression. It's a good reminder.

 

For my part I'm still somewhat suspicious of non-theistic systems of belief that don't qualify as atheism. It's really the fault of all the people who won't shoe horn themselves into convenient categories. Plus, I think I like being suspicious. It makes my life seem more exciting than it is....

 

As badboy and black sheep as it sounds to "reject" Christianity, it really isn't anything dramatic like that. At least for me it wasn't. It was just a slow progressive disbelief, and one day I just realized I no longer believed. I wouldn't say I "chose" atheism either.

 

Yes, I regret using the word "reject". I realize it doesn't quite cover it. In some ways I very much agree with you say on "chosing" atheism. It was once said by someone somewhere that you don't get to pick who you fall in love with, maybe it's also true about belief.

 

thanks all,

I'll try and post more later...

guac.

[Ouroboros]

I read through some of the "antimonys" in the other forum and I noticed that there are quite a few people who, the vast majority it seemed to me, who became atheists after repudiating Christianity. 

 

I'm curious as to why people chose Atheism when they rejected Christianity instead of another form of theism (Those of you who took another form of theism instead of Atheism can feel free to comment as well).

 

Specifically, I'm curious as to what exactly seemed to sour you to theism in general as well as Christianity specifically. 

 

Thanks,

guac.

 

I totally missed this thread yesterday, because I was on a business trip, and I see that Guacamole kind of finished the thread, but I still want to give my input too. Probably there are (I haven’t read all the postings yet) several that said the same things that I will say.

 

First of all, I’m an Agnostic in the sense that I don’t believe there is a God, but I’m open for it, and not denying that there still is a chance a god of some kind exists. But in my daily life, god as a concept, doesn’t have a meaning or have an effect on my decisions.

 

So you could say I’m a “soft” atheist, and if the case I would make the leap to believe in a divine entity, I would be a deist, but never would I find myself again to be a theist or subscribe exclusively to one particular religion.

 

My own “rejection” of Christianity came from many different reasons, but to name one of them, I realized that one single book describing Gods nature is demeaning to God and who he is. (Before I became agnostic, I did have a period of theistic/deistic view.) I saw that there is not one single religion that has the right to the whole truth. All religions are wrong, and yet right. They all describe the supernatural and transcendent experience you should have with God, but they all claim to have the only truth. One day I just found that to be discriminating God, he can’t be explained in words and even less in one or few books. Not even all written literature can ever describe who he is, and what he wants. From this I decided to become deist, and find God through my own experience.

 

Later this led me to become an agnostic/atheist. It was a progress that took some time, not one given moment that radically made me “reject”. It was a gradual motion towards un-belief.

[spamandham]

I'm not sure that I think atheism, when it becomes a sophisticated body of thought complete with apologetics, corrolaries and subdoctrines can further count as an implicit position. 

 

I suppose that would be true, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Buhhdism maybe?

 

I'm unaware of atheist apologetics or doctrines of any kind.

[Japedo]

I read through some of the "antimonys" in the other forum and I noticed that there are quite a few people who, the vast majority it seemed to me, who became atheists after repudiating Christianity. 

 

I'm curious as to why people chose Atheism when they rejected Christianity instead of another form of theism (Those of you who took another form of theism instead of Atheism can feel free to comment as well).

 

Specifically, I'm curious as to what exactly seemed to sour you to theism in general as well as Christianity specifically. 

 

Thanks,

guac.

 

 

 

Well, I did what I was told to do, seek out the truth and all of that. To my surprise the Truth isn't what I told it was. I don't consider myself an Atheist persey, I'm open to the fact that there could be a God, I don't believe nor Disbelieve, Anything is Possible.

 

I do know this much, Christianity is a fraud, After seeing that truth I looked into Judaism and found that their God was neither Just or Fair either. Taking Bible Stories and putting them on Trial, (removing faith from the equation ) just looking at them for what they are, Remove all mysterious BS and just look at it for what it is.

 

A few examples..

 

-God Hardened Pharos heart, then Killed Egyptians (Children) because Pharos Heart was hardened.

 

-God Saved Lot from Sodom and Gomorrah because he was righteous then after Lot went to the hills Lot had sex with his Daughters.

 

-Jacob Stole his brothers Birthright, and then was Blessed and rewarded for it.

 

These instances aren't Justice, and are far from perfection. Once you have favoritism all reality of True Justice go out the window. If God isn't Just, and isn't Perfect then he's not God. People create God (if he exists) To favor them always, A true God if existed, this wouldn't be the case.

[MrSpooky]

First off, to everyone who did, thanks for explaining the idea of "default position" to me. It makes a lot more sense to me now to have read it from multiple points of view. I'm still not sure that I buy it, but I'll think about it. I think my biggest problem with it is the difference between implicit and explicit positions as expounded by Mr. Spooky. I'm not sure that I think atheism, when it becomes a sophisticated body of thought complete with apologetics, corrolaries and subdoctrines can further count as an implicit position.

 

Like I said, this is why Atheism itself is divided into Explicit and Implicit functions. There are no "apologetics" in Atheism, rather, strict philosophical rejections.

 

Second, one must remember that ALL KNOWLEDGE is initiated by human experience. Some say we enter the world as a tabula rasa (blank slate... a mind without any thoughts yet until experience gives us the ideas to work with) though some theories allow for a basic structure to exist beforehand (such as Kant's model). But no philosophical epistemic theory goes beyond that, because there simply is no evidence for God being an "innate" idea.

 

If you wish to prove that God is an innate idea, you must DEMONSTRATE that he is an innate idea.

 

Again this goes with the Burden of Proof, but I'll let others go over that. I gotta get to the lab.

 

God is in many ways like Santa Claus in this respect.

[Kalidasa]

The one and only reason I took the position of atheism after my deconversion was because, at the time (15 years old), the only other organised religion I was aware of was Catholicism. And that religion scared me almost as much as Christianity did and still does. I've since 'discovered' other religions, and when I have left home I will be taking up Wicca. I feel a real kinship with it.

 

As to what 'soured' me to Christianity and organised religion in general, it was a number of factors. One, the hypocritical actions of other Christians I was in close contact with was quite a turn-off. Two, the particular sect I was most involved in (the Reformed Church, even though I myself was an Anglican [Church of England]) frightened and annoyed the shit out of me (figuratively speaking) to the point that I have a mild phobia of churches to this day. Three, I reasoned that with all the crap I was having to put up with from the age of 14 onwards, if there was a higher power my prayers would have been answered - and they never were. I was depressed, suicidal and needing a way out. And four, I am extremely cynical by nature, and if I don't have concrete proof of something, then I don't believe it exists. And what proof is there of Christianity except for some book that continually contradicts itself?

 

Oh, and thank you for not condemning us for the path/s we have have chosen in life. It's very refreshing to come here and find a Christian who is trying to understand our viewpoint rather than trying to 'talk' us out of it.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks for your perspective.  I've read "Why I am not a Christian" but if you could recommend some others I would be grateful. 

 

If you can remember what you felt as a Junior High student, what was it about Christianity that didn't make sense to you even then.  One would think that children are more easily hoodwinked and yet there are many many atheists who said they've never believed it, even when they were kids. 

 

The more I listen and think, the more I think that there are different kinds of people whose brains work in extremely different ways.  For example, why is it natural that one should be inquisitive and skeptical at a younger age while a peer, who is otherwise his equal in age appropriate intellectual and moral development is more trusting and complacent?  It never occured to me at such an age to doubt what I was taught.  That didn't extend only to religious observance, but also to academic lessons and other forms of speech from "authorities".  For example, I remember talking to a classmate in eighth grade about drugs, specifically pot.  He said that he would use it because he felt he could control it.  I thought, "What a moron, don't you listen to anyone?  Why would you throw your life away." I realize I was perhaps overly shielded and trusting now.

Thanks,

guac-o

 

This is very true. People have different needs of religion and belief. I’ve met people that never had a though about god, and when I asked them they gave me a blank face, like “what, I don’t know, I don’t care”. These people didn’t have the slightest wish to talk about religion or philosophy, nor did they have any thoughts about meaning of life etc. It can be compared to asexual people, that from birth and their whole life, never feel the urge or desire for sex.

 

My experience is that I’m a fairly religious person, in the sense I want to know and understand. And that inquisitive nature in me drove me to question myself, and check that I had a pure and true faith. But for every answer there were more questions, and eventually the only answers that made sense was “I can not know if God exists”. So there I was, without faith, but with a brain of need for belief.

[Ouroboros]

I am so confused by the definitions of atheist and agnostic that I don’t use either one to define myself. The more I read about them, the more confused I get. There seems to a great deal of overlap even in the best of definitions. Every time I have used either term on this board, someone chimes in with a correction.

 

I am quite comfortable with what I do and don’t believe, and don’t need a personal definition. If others want to label me, that’s fine to. Hell bound heathen is one my personal favorites.

 

In my opinion they are somewhat the same, only that an agnostic can have a deistic view.

 

Usually I label myself as agnostic/atheist, almost like saying atheist, but I can change my mind if you prove me otherwise. Or I don’t believe there is a god, but I could be wrong, and I could hope there is an afterlife.

 

Agnostic means literally “Not-Knowing”, a word invented to explain, that we can not know. While the word atheist is more definitive, “No-God”, taking a standpoint against the concept god of any kind.

 

I think most strong atheists admit that if they were presented with undeniable facts that could prove god, they would change their mind. But until such is presented, the most natural standpoint is that there is no god. So they have somewhat an agnostic view too.

[Ouroboros]

At this point I really need to get home and get my lazy coddled body onto the treadmill. 

 

I realize I missed some.  Hopefully I can get back on tonight but my wife is complaining about the amount of time I spend on discussion boards.  If not, I'll try to comment tommorow.

 

Thanks for your thoughts,

guac.

 

I think that some of us (more distinctively me) have the same problem.

 

Need to do more treadmill.

 

And I’m very addicted to this website.

 

I got a cold and couldn’t sleep well.

Woke up at 3 AM, and stepped out of bed at 4 AM and started posting.

[MrSpooky]

And four, I am extremely cynical by nature, and if I don't have concrete proof of something, then I don't believe it exists.

 

This is hardly cynicism. It's the very foundation of rational thought to demand proof for a substantive claim.

 

And I think you guys are really mixing up the term "agnostic," or using it in a manner that makes it a bit less useful than it should be. If one has a solid deductive argument that God does not exist (whether in the Positive Atheism or Negative Atheism manner) one should not qualify as Agnostic. An Agnostic would be one who lacks such argumentation and therefore suspends judgement.

[Mr. Neil]

I'm curious as to why people chose Atheism when they rejected Christianity instead of another form of theism

This is like asking, "When you stopped doing crack, why didn't do start using heroin?"