Warrior_of_god Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 IF god is all powerful and all knowing and all that stuff then why did he need a mere man, Moses, to set "his people" free? Why not just do it himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 classic question! why does he need prophets or angels? i think that the ancient priests who wrote the bible took some Persian idea of God as "ancient of days" sitting in the "heavenly" court, so they had to rationalize his activities with the world through the media of prophets and other intermediaries. The central idea is that God is so awesome that to have any direct contact with the world would taint his holiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I thought this came from the idea that gods holiness was too overwhelming for our tainted world and for him to come into contact with it would be destructive to it? Of course this causes problems for older parts of the bible where god actually did come into our world (but we'll conviently forget about those things or write them off as allegorical). Isn't this based somewhat on the Greek version of heaven and the lowest level being inhabited by demons? Only they could travel down to earth and back to heaven. Likewise only the beings in the second level of heaven could move between the lowest level of heaven and the highest level (where god actually lived)? God could only remain at the highest level of of heaven. Something like this anyhow (don't quote me on this ). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior_of_god Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 Well ill just take this as one more instance of religious BS and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Yeah, that's probably the easiest explanation. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 IF god is all powerful and all knowing and all that stuff then why did he need a mere man, Moses, to set "his people" free? Why not just do it himself. One of many good questions, Warrior. Add to that... If god is all knowing and all powerful, why would he create humans, knowing in advance that they would be condemned to sin in the first generation, thereby creating an inherently sinful race, with 90% of them subject to damnation. (Wouldn't it have made more sense just to forgive the sinful nature, or better yet, not allow it to happen in the first place?) If the great flood was supposed to wipe out the evil nature of man, saving the righteous Noah and his clan, why did it fail? If Satan was supposedly cast out of heaven, what was he doing prancing around the heavenly throne striking a wager with god over the faith of Job? Myth and folktales...nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 mwc, yes, you're right about the idea of "confining" holiness in the OT. I just don't think those stories, most of which appear in Exodus and in Numbers, were written until the very latest (between 600 and 450 BCE). I go for a form of the "JEDP" hypothesis, which insists that sections of the Torah were written separately as epics between 1000 BCE and 620 BCE and then were reworked into the five scrolls we know today in Babylon by 450 BCE. The "JEDP" theory has been debated in religious studies since Julius Wellhausen made it famous a little over a 100 years ago and has mutated hundreds of times since then. No manuscripts of the "epics" exist, so this is definitely one of those "hypothetical sources" theories. So in the oldest parts of the theoretical southern epic, called "J" for "yahweh" or "Judahite," people see God all the time... like Adam and Eve, Abraham, Hagar, Moses, Aaron, the elders of Israel. In the northern "E" texts, for 'El" or "Ephraim," people were more influenced by Canaanite religions and believed that God lived in the mountains and spoke to people through dreams or signs. Basically, "J" and "E" were mixed together so that's why so often in the Torah the same story gets told twice or texts just flat-out contradict each other. "J" and "E" compose most of Genesis, Exodus and Numbers. In the newest texts, "D" for Deuteronomy and "P" for priests, you get all this static about how people can't see God without destructive conseqences. These "P" texts (Leviticus, small parts of Exodus and Genesis relating to priests or to the Covenant, and big chunks of Numbers) were written after the elite Israelite priesthood controlled all of the affairs of Solomon's Temple... so for them it was a money scheme to teach people to bring their sacrifices to the Temple, but that you couldn't see God without being cursed... you might just wander into that Holy of Holies and, like the Roman general Pompey... see nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 IF god is all powerful and all knowing and all that stuff then why did he need a mere man, Moses, to set "his people" free? Why not just do it himself. Who said he needed anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ravenholm Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 IF god is all powerful and all knowing and all that stuff then why did he need a mere man, Moses, to set "his people" free? Why not just do it himself. Because that would fuck up the plot of the whole bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 IF god is all powerful and all knowing and all that stuff then why did he need a mere man, Moses, to set "his people" free? Why not just do it himself. God could have done anything in the Bible He wanted to without the need for prophets. He does choose to use us, though. It's an honor. Partnering up with God is amazing! Kinda like the Great Commisions. He could do it Himself, but He lets us work with Him IF god is all powerful and all knowing and all that stuff then why did he need a mere man, Moses, to set "his people" free? Why not just do it himself. One of many good questions, Warrior. Add to that... If god is all knowing and all powerful, why would he create humans, knowing in advance that they would be condemned to sin in the first generation, thereby creating an inherently sinful race, with 90% of them subject to damnation. (Wouldn't it have made more sense just to forgive the sinful nature, or better yet, not allow it to happen in the first place?) If the great flood was supposed to wipe out the evil nature of man, saving the righteous Noah and his clan, why did it fail? If Satan was supposedly cast out of heaven, what was he doing prancing around the heavenly throne striking a wager with god over the faith of Job? Myth and folktales...nothing more. He created us to fellowship with Him. And He has created a way for us to be forgiven; through His Son. The flood succeeded. It started the human race over. It wasn't meant to wipe out all of humanity forever. Satan was cast out of heaven. He could still go into the presence of God to get permission do do whatever crap he had in mind, and to "accuse the brethren". Revelation 12 speaks of a time when Satan will be thrown out of heaven forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 IF god is all powerful and all knowing and all that stuff then why did he need a mere man, Moses, to set "his people" free? Why not just do it himself. Moses didnt set His people free. God did. He did do it himself. Are you asking why would this God do that in the way He did, with the application of a human instead of Himself. Should He have floated down in a cloud, or transformed Himself into a bear, or lion, and devoured all the Egyptians? Before you answer that, think of all the culture myths of that time, and various writtings from that time. Then, relate that to the God that claims "us" as His creation, and also claims that He is the only God. classic question! why does he need prophets or angels? i think that the ancient priests who wrote the bible took some Persian idea of God as "ancient of days" sitting in the "heavenly" court, so they had to rationalize his activities with the world through the media of prophets and other intermediaries. The central idea is that God is so awesome that to have any direct contact with the world would taint his holiness. If thats the case, Why did He tell Moses/Aaron that He is holy, and His people shall be Holy? God said in Genesis that His Spirit can't strive with man; as to His presence around us. Thats why followers of Christ that believe in the Holy Spirit, only receive it in measure. Thats why Christ is presummed to be so significant to Christians, earlier more than latter I believe, to be divinely intertwined with God; it is said in the Nt that the Holy Spirit was upon Jesus without measure. Applying Biblical structure at that point; God was upon Jesus without measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 One of many good questions, Warrior. Add to that... If god is all knowing and all powerful, why would he create humans, knowing in advance that they would be condemned to sin in the first generation, thereby creating an inherently sinful race, with 90% of them subject to damnation. (Wouldn't it have made more sense just to forgive the sinful nature, or better yet, not allow it to happen in the first place?) For starters, If God would have created this ideal race, then you would be walking around obeying God, He would still be with us physically, and you wouldnt have this site. So, maybe the better question is what is His agenda with the creation that He made? If the great flood was supposed to wipe out the evil nature of man, saving the righteous Noah and his clan, why did it fail? The same reason people dont believe Jesus was the righteousness of God. Biblically, that is. If Satan was supposedly cast out of heaven, what was he doing prancing around the heavenly throne striking a wager with god over the faith of Job? He saw him being cast out of heaven as lightning...right..Biblically speaking, maybe Jesus already saw that happen before Job, as He said He already knew Abraham, and Abraham was glad to see His day. Myth and folktales...nothing more. You cant explain the unexplainable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Actually, the real reason for prophets is simple - if you want to order a bunch of people around and make them do things, being god's 'prophet' is very handy. Who's gonna argue with Daniel, or Moses, or John The Baptist when they give you your marching orders straight from Yaweh? No one, that's who. So shut up and do what I tell you...I mean, what God tells you. Through me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 why does he need prophets or angels? i think that the ancient priests who wrote the bible took some Persian idea of God as "ancient of days" sitting in the "heavenly" court, so they had to rationalize his activities with the world through the media of prophets and other intermediaries. The central idea is that God is so awesome that to have any direct contact with the world would taint his holiness. If thats the case, Why did He tell Moses/Aaron that He is holy, and His people shall be Holy? God said in Genesis that His Spirit can't strive with man; as to His presence around us. Thats why followers of Christ that believe in the Holy Spirit, only receive it in measure. Thats why Christ is presummed to be so significant to Christians, earlier more than latter I believe, to be divinely intertwined with God; it is said in the Nt that the Holy Spirit was upon Jesus without measure. Applying Biblical structure at that point; God was upon Jesus without measure. God said to Moses "be holy..." meaning be separate from everybody else... and how to be holy? Do what the priests say to do: ie the rest of the book of Exodus. "Being holy" was all about being socially identical to the ruling religious class, and still is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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