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Check out this link to watch a video on this: September 11 Revisited -- video

Some very powerful arguments are brought up in this video that discusses if explosives were used to bring down the World Trade Towers.

 

I think people on this site, in particular, will be open-minded enough to watch this video and critically consider the points that are raised.

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

This is the same tired stuff that was debunked even before Loose Change came out. I encourage you to do a google search for counter-arguments if you've bought into what this video is saying. I'm no fan of our government but a conspiracy this large would be impossible to cover up and maintain, not to mention the fact the the twin towers collapse looked nothing like a controlled demolition, but looked exactly like the official explaintion of a top down collapse set in motion by the collapse of a single floor near the top of the buildings which sent tons of debris crashing down onto lower floors. The plumes of dust ejected from the windows aren't squibs, but the natural product of pressure building up as the srtucture collapsed into itself. I could go on but I'm frankly a bit tired of this subject. Look into it a little more for yourself. Conspiracy theorists only show you the bits of information that seem to fit their case. You need to hear from the other side before you spend too much time promoting some specious nonsense.

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I can't watch the video since my dial-up connection would take forever. But I remember when I saw the collapse for the first time

(I woke up six hours after the attacks and didn't see the whole thing at first), the way they fell gave me the impression they were brought down by explosives.

 

What I don't understand, however, is why would the hijackers fly airplanes into the towers if they already planted explosives that would've been just as destructive without having to kill themselves in the process? And if it was their intent on killing as many people as possible, would they have known most people would've evacuated after the first plane hit? So why set off explosives long after everyone's evacuated?

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu
But I remember when I saw the collapse for the first time (I woke up six hours after the attacks and didn't see the whole thing at first), the way they fell gave me the impression they were brought down by explosives.

 

Have you since watched it again? What gave you the impression that the twin towers were brought down by explosives? Was it your years of experience in the field of demolition? Was it because it looked similar to other demolitions you've seen? If so I would like to see that footage because in every last video I've seen of a large building being demolished they cave into themselves from the bottom up. Nothing about the twin tower's collapse looks anything like that. You can clearly see the top section fall into the bottom section blowing the raging fire from the sides of the collapsed floor and what follows is simply the effects of gravity tugging on a shitload of mass.

 

What I don't understand, however, is why would the hijackers fly airplanes into the towers if they already planted explosives that would've been just as destructive without having to kill themselves in the process? And if it was their intent on killing as many people as possible, would they have known most people would've evacuated after the first plane hit? So why set off explosives long after everyone's evacuated?

 

Good question. It would have been a hell of alot easier to just plant bombs to take down the towers. They could still blame it on Osama. It has been tried before. Planes were used because it was the only weapon capable of that kind of destruction to which the terrorists could even conceive of gaining access.

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Have you since watched it again? What gave you the impression that the twin towers were brought down by explosives? Was it your years of experience in the field of demolition? Was it because it looked similar to other demolitions you've seen? If so I would like to see that footage because in every last video I've seen of a large building being demolished they cave into themselves from the bottom up. Nothing about the twin tower's collapse looks anything like that. You can clearly see the top section fall into the bottom section blowing the raging fire from the sides of the collapsed floor and what follows is simply the effects of gravity tugging on a shitload of mass.

 

Vishnu, I said that's what I thought *at first*, not what I think now. :HaHa:

 

The reason, as I mentioned in my first post, was that I woke up several hours after everything happened and didn't get to see everything unfold in sequence. I turned on the TV, oblivious to everything that had been happening and saw all hell had broken loose while I was asleep. The very first footage I saw on the news was of the towers collapsing. The way they fell, like buildings brought down by controlled implosion, made me suspect a bomb. My impression changed immediately when they showed the footage of the planes hitting the towers a few minutes later.

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The fact is that pure scientific fact and research by actual scientists and experts in their respective (and relevant) fields, NOT bored college students, web videos made by just about anybody, and conspiracy theorists who believe that the US also intentionally bombed Pearl Harbor so they could start a war with Japan (or the Middle East - the exact reason why a war would be so eagerly sought out, or why in those particular instances of history the US needed a rare actual attack to go against another country) has proven these dime-a-dozen web movies absolute bull.

 

It pains me how many people buy this bullshit in the face of scientific evidence. Really, a board like this is open-minded enough to see the facts and evidence from BOTH sides, and find one seriously lacking.

 

I do not believe the government, especially Dick Cheney, to be entirely innocent. I believe Dick Cheney saw this coming, rejoiced at how fortituous it would be for him, and then tried to prevent anyone else receiving due warning of a terrorist attack that did happen. He tried to keep it under wraps as best he could, but he is not all-powerful.

 

Cheney saw a terrorist plot boiling away, and thought about how he would actually benefit from it, rather than lose. He dismissed it in front of his colleagues and tried to give the impression that it was nothing to worry about. I don't think he knew the actual scale of what would happen. I think he just thought somebody was going to put a pipe bomb in front of the Lincoln Memorial, for example. He saw something coming, considered how lucky he was that it could favor him, and then tried to make others believe nothing was coming at all.

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Believing in this conspiracy is on par with believing the moon landing was a hoax. Bottom line, there will always be "experts" that can be brought forward...but you have to look at their biases. It's why we don't take seriously a "christian expert" in any scientific arena. (cause there have supposedly been experts come forward and support this lunacy)

 

What you're basically saying when you support this theory, is that The government OUR government is behind Al Queada...because they would have had to have been in collusion with the suicide bombers in order to have pulled it off. (cause otherwise it would just be too big of a coincidence). And the bottom line truth of the matter is...muslims do not work with christians on any level for any reason.

 

Maybe you could say there WERE no suicide bombers, that there was some other reason the planes crashed...but if you go THAT far afield, you have to explain all the frantic cell phone calls from the plane. And why the fuck would the government allow the pentegon to be smashed too?

 

Seriously this is the most fucked up theory I've ever heard.

 

If you really look at what you're suggesting you'll see how psycho looney it sounds. And if you DON'T see how psycho looney it sounds... :twitch:

 

 

I agree Zoe. If any good can come from such a disaster and loss of life, I honestly do believe we are a much more secure country after this dasterdly attack. As President Bush says, "We have to get it right 100% of the time, terrorists only have to get it right once"

Such a looney theory disgraces those who suffered loss in the attack.

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This is the same tired stuff that was debunked even before Loose Change came out. I encourage you to do a google search for counter-arguments if you've bought into what this video is saying. I'm no fan of our government but a conspiracy this large would be impossible to cover up and maintain, not to mention the fact the the twin towers collapse looked nothing like a controlled demolition, but looked exactly like the official explaintion of a top down collapse set in motion by the collapse of a single floor near the top of the buildings which sent tons of debris crashing down onto lower floors. The plumes of dust ejected from the windows aren't squibs, but the natural product of pressure building up as the srtucture collapsed into itself. I could go on but I'm frankly a bit tired of this subject. Look into it a little more for yourself. Conspiracy theorists only show you the bits of information that seem to fit their case. You need to hear from the other side before you spend too much time promoting some specious nonsense.

 

At the risk of facing scorn from my fellow skeptics, I guess I remain skeptical of the government's explanation and my position on this matter would lean toward being agnostic. I don't know how a conspiracy this large could be covered up. I read the Popular Mechanics article that debunks the conspiracy theories, but I still have questions. On some of the videos I've seen, there was melted steel in the rubble. Even PM states that the fire from jet fuel cannot acheive the heat necessary to melt steel by 1000 degrees F. I also question why these two buildings colapsed, when other buildings in the world have burned for days, have not colapsed. I don't make any claims as to what happened, but something doesn't smell right to me.

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I do not believe the government, especially Dick Cheney, to be entirely innocent. I believe Dick Cheney saw this coming, rejoiced at how fortituous it would be for him, and then tried to prevent anyone else receiving due warning of a terrorist attack that did happen. He tried to keep it under wraps as best he could, but he is not all-powerful.

 

Cheney saw a terrorist plot boiling away, and thought about how he would actually benefit from it, rather than lose. He dismissed it in front of his colleagues and tried to give the impression that it was nothing to worry about. I don't think he knew the actual scale of what would happen. I think he just thought somebody was going to put a pipe bomb in front of the Lincoln Memorial, for example. He saw something coming, considered how lucky he was that it could favor him, and then tried to make others believe nothing was coming at all.

 

Now that I can agree with. Someone had to have be asleep at the wheel, to say the least, just as they must have been at Pearl Harbor. In that case, American code-breakers had broken the Purple Cipher (the Japanese equivalent of the German Enigma) and were even in possession of the code word used to alert the Japanese Embassy in the US.

 

Higashi no kaze ame -- East Wind, Rain.

 

On receipt of that codeword Japanese Embassy personnel were observed to burn and otherwise destroy confidential papers. It must have been a sight akin to watching a policeman run! Yet very little, if anything, was done. Even when the radar on Pearl Harbor picked up the Japanese carrier-borne assault, this was dismissed as "operator error".

 

One wonders how much warning the authorities had of 911? I wouldn't go so far as to say the US Government orchestrated the attack, but they have certainly used it, via the Patriot Act, to make inroads on Constitutionally guaranteed liberties.

 

What then becomes of this saying:

 

They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety

Casey

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I would love to hear how we are so much safer after this attack? Please enlighten us.

 

We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

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Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

 

Makes you think, doesn't it? If it doesn't, it should.

Casey

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We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

This is so full of bullshit that I don't even know where to begin. Seriously.

 

Then again, I've learned to expect nothing less from neocons.

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I would love to hear how we are so much safer after this attack? Please enlighten us.

 

We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

 

Sigh... sleep well then teach. Daddy Bush has your back.

 

I would ask though, if the original hijackers took down 4 planes with box cutters, what's to stop a similar event? A piece of plastic can kill someone as easily as a box cutter. But, yes, we have captured Sadam in the name of the war on terror, even though it has never been established that he was even remotely to blame. Moreover, the war on terror has really helped our image among Muslim nations. I'm sure they wouldn't think of attacking us now. And shipping containers in our harbors are being checked at a rate of, oh, 1 in 100. No nuke devices or terrorists will ever make it past harbor security.

 

But Bush now has his perpetual war and scared little monkeys at home, like you, who will give up their very last rights just to feel warm and safe. Life is much safer now in 2006 than it ever was in 2001.

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We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

This is so full of bullshit that I don't even know where to begin. Seriously.

 

Then again, I've learned to expect nothing less from neocons.

 

Who do you think protects you dear?god? you seem to take your safety for granted.Its not given,its earned.

 

I would love to hear how we are so much safer after this attack? Please enlighten us.

 

We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

 

Sigh... sleep well then teach. Daddy Bush has your back.

 

I would ask though, if the original hijackers took down 4 planes with box cutters, what's to stop a similar event? A piece of plastic can kill someone as easily as a box cutter. But, yes, we have captured Sadam in the name of the war on terror, even though it has never been established that he was even remotely to blame. Moreover, the war on terror has really helped our image among Muslim nations. I'm sure they wouldn't think of attacking us now. And shipping containers in our harbors are being checked at a rate of, oh, 1 in 100. No nuke devices or terrorists will ever make it past harbor security.

 

But Bush now has his perpetual war and scared little monkeys at home, like you, who will give up their very last rights just to feel warm and safe. Life is much safer now in 2006 than it ever was in 2001.

 

Actually it is safer. It was 40 years of Democrats doing nothing that got us into this mess.

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We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

This is so full of bullshit that I don't even know where to begin. Seriously.

 

Then again, I've learned to expect nothing less from neocons.

 

Who do you think protects you dear?god? you seem to take your safety for granted.Its not given,its earned.

 

I would love to hear how we are so much safer after this attack? Please enlighten us.

 

We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

 

Sigh... sleep well then teach. Daddy Bush has your back.

 

I would ask though, if the original hijackers took down 4 planes with box cutters, what's to stop a similar event? A piece of plastic can kill someone as easily as a box cutter. But, yes, we have captured Sadam in the name of the war on terror, even though it has never been established that he was even remotely to blame. Moreover, the war on terror has really helped our image among Muslim nations. I'm sure they wouldn't think of attacking us now. And shipping containers in our harbors are being checked at a rate of, oh, 1 in 100. No nuke devices or terrorists will ever make it past harbor security.

 

But Bush now has his perpetual war and scared little monkeys at home, like you, who will give up their very last rights just to feel warm and safe. Life is much safer now in 2006 than it ever was in 2001.

 

Actually it is safer. It was 40 years of Democrats doing nothing that got us into this mess.

 

 

Its really that simple. Glad you see the light.

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Who do you think protects you dear?god? you seem to take your safety for granted.Its not given,its earned.

Who protects me? I protect me. My family protects me.

 

Not some greedy, grabby, grossly overbloated wannabe-theocratic government that spits on people like me.

 

I'm sorry. But I'm not so fucking lazy and trusting as to be willing to hand something as crucial as my personal safety over to the travesty that is the neocon government - or any government, for that matter. I play the first and most crucial role in my safety. Anything after that is secondary - people picking up the slack, if you will.

 

There's no guarantee that Big Brother Gubbermint is going to be there to save me from the bad men and creatures hiding under the proverbial bed. And when most of those bad men and beasties are conjured up by the government in an attempt to make me scared and compliant, that makes me even more unwilling to trust them.

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Its the Democrats fault? :lmao: Please stop, im laughing too hard.

 

Bush got you, hook, line and sinker. Listen, do you really think we are safer? Honestly do you? I dont think we are, but I think we feel more so. Bush did the same thing Fascist nations have done in the past; used a desaster to gain more and more power, taking away liberties and saying its for your own good. Hitler did the same thing. I could list many parallels between the US right now and the Nazis, or the mindset of the terrorists and Bush but i wont. Anyway were not safer, we are just more complacent with any "security" policies Bush wants put in place...its kinda like religion, all about control, how numb can you make the sheep?

 

And if you think safety is earned then you have a lot to learn. Saftey is a right, everyone has a right to be safe. Those who cant protect themselves should ask for protection from someone who can. Saying that one earns saftey is like saying that one earns the right to live.

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

Well, one thing is for sure, I sleep better at night knowing that our teachers love Bush and hate to use spaces after punctuation marks.

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We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

 

Wire taps, national ID cards, forgetting that our current president is in office fraudulently. If freedom were a physical object, we'd wipe our asses with it.

 

My sister works at the airport, and because she said the wrong thing in certain company the head of TSA at O'Hare came to her work and inststed she be suspended and fired. She was out having a smoke, and a guy asked her for a light. After a few minutes of small talk he tells her that the TSA's took all of his lighters. She gave him one of her extra lighters and told him to just walk through the metal detectors - she does it every day. Well a TSA happened to be sitting near by and heard the entire exchange. She confronted monia and immediately reported her. So what ended up happening was that she was written up for an incident that happened while not working and outside of the airport. My sister the terrorist, who last night had to ask me to kill a spider in her bedroom because she couldn't sleep with it crawling around, doesn't have the right to free speech.

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On some of the videos I've seen, there was melted steel in the rubble. Even PM states that the fire from jet fuel cannot acheive the heat necessary to melt steel by 1000 degrees F.

 

I remember that argument got me at some point to buy a bit into the thermite conspiracy. Steel melts at around 2500F (depends on the alloy) so the jet fuel fire which burns at max 1800F is clearly insufficient to melt it (though it's enough to weaken the steel's strenght down to 10%, bringing collapse). But there is one problem with the video : that pool of metal only appears to be molten steel. It was not tested and it could easily have been aluminium which melts at 1220F, way under the maximum temperature achieved by the fire.

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I think people go to the extremes on both sides. Some people like to think that our government and military do absolutely nothing but invade our privacy and figure out new ways to steal our rights...its just a tad paranoid. Politics and politicians are bullshit, yes, but can you imagine this country without the security we have? Even though most mock it and pretend to have all the answers, without the security we have now, we would have to deal with constant attacks....believe it or not. I think our Government could be doing a hell of a lot more, but at the same time I'm not a hard-core lib or con so at least I dont have to worry about that blinding me. It is pretty funny to sit back and watch both sides blame eachother...Its like a Muslim and a Christian fighting over which religion is right while an asteroid is moving in to destroy both...not THAT funny I guess...

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Wrt to the burning steel: jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning there. I could see a rather nasty cascade that could have set off something like that.

 

As for bombs, I take that as a load of shit. Any secondary explosions are notably absent from eyewitness accounts (including my relative who had a front-row seat).

 

Also if you think we're safer than we were five years ago, I'll let you keep thinking that. Last thing we need is a panic as people realize just how much more our pants are around our collective ankles now. It isn't just the enemy from without we have to watch out for.

 

Though I wiill agree that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, just make sure you're watching in every direction, not just the one that the powers that be want you to.

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We now have a department of homeland security, we are actively and correctly pursuing terrorists around the world who's only purpose is to kill Americans. We are all more aware of our surrondings and no longer take freedom for granted.

Also, just the fact that we have not experienced another major attack since 9/11 is no accident. By waking up in your bed safely today this is the result of our government keeping us safe. many terrorist plots were uncovered and stopped as a result of 9/11 and the war on terror.

This is so full of bullshit that I don't even know where to begin. Seriously.

 

Then again, I've learned to expect nothing less from neocons.

I couldn't agree more, LadyFeline..

 

I feel less secure and more paranoid than ever in the past. I have tried to let it go though..

 

Right after it happened, I was all gung ho, lets get that bastard, kill 'em all. And the patriot act? I once thought that was a good idea, let them tap away, invade all the privacy they want, afterall, I have nothing to hide..

 

Then came "government involvement" of another kind..and even before THAT, I realised how invasive it was. So, now I hide from those who say they are from some government agency. They will find what they want, and twist anything you may say to fit what they already believe.

 

Secure? No..

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