Prayer Helps No One

[Ramen666]

Here is examples where prayer didn't work? Amy and Scott reply to this:

 

People trapped in New Orleans in their basement asking for help. Then later they are found dead.

 

People in the burning WTC. Whose kids probably were praying really hard. Later on the tower collasped killing everyone around.

 

People praying that someone will not have cancer and not die. ( Yes I prayed on that one..did it work no...)

 

Pat Ronsinsons plane crew died in a plane crash ( Do I need to comment on that one)

 

Examples of how people "prayer" worked in their minds

 

Prayer for good grades- ( You prayed but you did the hard work on your own not from God)

 

Prayer to win a sports game- ( There was just teamwork/ If this is true God must hate the other team if prayer was real.)

 

Prayer for health- ( It is more a mental thing, our bodies work in mysterious ways but even doctors say the mind is one major factot in healing

[Kuroikaze]

 

Bruce locked a thread she had been participating on. I think it had more to do with the fact that he saw a flame war about to break open completely unrelated to Amy and the discussion that she was attempting to dominate.

 

so in other words she is blowing one instance, that had nothing to do with her, way out of proportion

 

Here is examples where prayer didn't work? Amy and Scott reply to this:

 

People trapped in New Orleans in their basement asking for help. Then later they are found dead.

 

People in the burning WTC. Whose kids probably were praying really hard. Later on the tower collasped killing everyone around.

 

People praying that someone will not have cancer and not die. ( Yes I prayed on that one..did it work no...)

 

Pat Ronsinsons plane crew died in a plane crash ( Do I need to comment on that one)

 

Examples of how people "prayer" worked in their minds

 

Prayer for good grades- ( You prayed but you did the hard work on your own not from God)

 

Prayer to win a sports game- ( There was just teamwork/ If this is true God must hate the other team if prayer was real.)

 

Prayer for health- ( It is more a mental thing, our bodies work in mysterious ways but even doctors say the mind is one major factot in healing

 

This was one of the first things that made me start doubting my faith...people were always talking about prayer doing things, but it also did nothing quite a bit too. It didn't seem any better than the laws of averages. If you pray for 1000 things to happen 9 or 10 are bound to come true just based on chance.

 

Christians are like a gambler who looses his entire life savings and yet only remember the times he won.

[Ziggy]

Scott / Amy My belief became (even as a christian) was that it is unhealthy to think of prayer in terms of expecting God to answer your every wish.

NOONE can prove prayer works .. and in cases like the Tsunami and Katrina and cancer casualties there is all sorts of PROOF that prayer does NOT work.

 

If you live your life asking God for everything (safety / health / jobs etc) then the only way your faith can stay unshaken is if you can fullly accept whatever answer comes back (yes no wait SILENCE ..) But then that only proves that you have an unshakable faith in something that cannot be proved. Prayer does not prove God.

 

I think there is still something in prayer though described well in this thread on General THeological Issues See Kurari's post at the top of page 2

 

I think if Christians thought more along these lines there would be a more favourable reaction

[mwc]

When did I ever attack anyone?

 

 

No Scott. You didn't attack anyone, You respectfully stated your opinion as the rules on this part of the forum invite Christians to post their opinions. The topic states "Prayer NEVER works." You are not brow beating or lashing out at these people with abusive words or belittling them. You are just sharing your beliefs and have been a gentleman about it. Your experience with God answering prayer is different but it's hard for some of these exer's to accept there might be others who still see God in a positive light. This angers them to no end.

 

And you have to have a thick skin. Be prepared to be called every name in the book and to be labeled a fool, looney, stupid etc.

 

And then if a member rises up in your defense and dishes it right back in a language that the ruffians understand don't be surprised if this thread is locked.

 

Let no one discourage your simple faith. It's beautiful!

Huh? What? This makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever!

 

Please rephrase it in the form of a poem, short story or picture and resubmit it. Also, you are dangerously close to a point so make sure that your resubmitted post only contains emotional imagery unrelated to the topic or reality in general.

 

Thank you,

 

mwc

[mwc]

I just think the intolerance shown by some is a little hypocritical.

Oh please. Go back and count the number of topics you started when you first came here and how long they went on (and on and on). We've indulged you since day one. I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt when others specifically said what "games" you were going to play. I should have listened to them...but noooo. The fact that people are sick of YOU specifically Amy does not show a general trend by any means. In fact, that you're even still here it pretty much shows the opposite. There are others on here that don't hold my views by any means and they don't need to grow a "thick skin" because they are honest, forthright, individuals. That's all it takes to survive here.

 

So now that you have pretty much become a pathetic, lurking, troll I don't expect that you will get much respect from all those people who have tried being kind to you in the past only to have you jerk them around. I count myself in that group if you haven't guessed, Amy. There are others here that will keep reaching out to you. I personally don't understand them but if they wish to keep extending that olive branch then that is their choice. If you wish to come out from underneath the bridge and really be a participant here that is your choice. I, on the other hand, see you as the Amy that cried wolf. It's time for you to be devoured and done away with so the village can stop hearing your pitiful cries and laughter when we run out en masse.

 

The only reason you applaud Scott is simply because he's on your "team." Otherwise you couldn't give two shits about him. If it turns out that Scott's doctrine suddenly disagrees with yours, you'll turn on him since he no longer serves your purpose. You're a fair weather friend at best Amy.

 

mwc

[Antlerman]

Here's Ramen666's post:

 

This is has to deal with my testimony and I was told by a fundie God helps people. Sure "God" does. This thread is for all of you to post incidents where prayer didn't work. Show examples of events, crisis and even make a fundie question his believes. Show that there is no such thing.

 

This is the point of this thread, to show prayer doesn't work. Why jump on Scott for simply giving his opinion and speaking of his experience? Is that how exer's get "fundies" to question their beliefs, by bullying and insulting them into submission like a bunch of deprogrammers? I know that some of you think we're all brainwashed.

If you are asking a sincere question, the answer is not that we are jumping on Scott, but on the idea that God favors someone who prays with the right mixture of faith to get the Almighty to do something helpful in the world, over those who just simply desire to live and pray to God for his help but get nothing in return except misery and unanswered prayers.

 

What is wrong with thinking that he and mom and sis could turn away a tornado by invoking a Bible verse casting the mountain into the sea? You think about that and when you come up with why that would seem offensive to us, then you have begun to put yourself truly into our shoes and are showing you really care to understand us. I am being quite sincere with you about this.

 

For the record I did not call Scott stupid. I said a belief that some kind of Super-Being through special mental processes directly controls tornados, favoring some while destroying others is frankly a rather dumb idea in a world that actually understands how weather occurs! I stand by that. If I state it somewhat harshly it’s because sometimes it’s the best way to make the point. Thinking Jehovah controls tornados is just a ridiculous an idea in today's word as Zeus controlling lightening bolts in the real world. I am not disrespecting him, or you as people, but sometimes certain ideas are so absurd that they provoke a less than forgiving response.

 

Is it always wrong to sometimes tell someone how absurd an idea is? I suppose I could have chosen a different word than stupid in reference to his idea: like absurd, ridiculous, ignorant, poorly reasoned, etc, but stupid is just what I happened to type. I think that's the first time I've actually used that word in the over 1500 posts I've made on this site. Again though, it was directed at the idea, not him personally.

[Kurari]

Once a long time ago I prayed that I would find the man of my dreams and get married before age 25. The years came and I didn't get married. I almost got married once, but my ex-fiance decided he wasn't ready and we broke up. I haven't had a relationship that deep since. I'm 29 now.

 

Interestingly though, after a lot of instrospection over the years, I've discovered I really don't want to get married after all and alot of my notions about the subject weren't very realistic.

 

Now, does anybody else see here how many ways this scenario could be taken depending on your POV and personal beliefs? Did my prayer fail completely? Or was it answered in a way I wasn't expecting? Or was it answered and my fiance exercised his freewill and broke it? Did I do something to "break" the prayer? Or was this just life happens and no diety was involved?

 

How about Scott's scenario about the tornado? His house was spared, but what about his neighbors that lost theirs? He believes God answered his prayer and God had something else planned for his neighbors. That's just one way to look at it, and a lot of other people here have already pointed out other ways.

 

Being a Theist, I do believe in prayer and communing with Diety. Prayer is not a work/doesn't work ultimate-proof-of-Gods-existance thing. In the end, prayer is what you believe you get out of it and regardless of whether you believe it works or not, you still have to deal with it as real life.

 

*tosses a couple of pennies in the jar*

[Kuroikaze]

 

your accusations are rude, when have we ever locked thread on you? I can't think of a single one...I thought lying was imoral your the one who keeps saying your leaving and then staying...your being dishonest and trying to villify us...some christian you are.

 

Simple is just a way of saying you bury your head in the sand...maybe that works for you, but I can't live like that.

 

Rude? You have to be kidding. Have I told any of you to shut the f... up, grow up, called you stupid...Come on. I have seen the way exer's pounce on Christians if they dare step in the Lion's Den and state their beliefs.

 

I'm warning Scott ahead of time that he better have a thick skin.

 

Am I not allowed to change my mind about leaving and then returning? Is there some sort of rule here that I've broken? If so, I won't return.

 

 

Once again, you show the amazing ability to totalty misunderstand the entire point of my post. One, for my part I haven't said very many mean things to you....I've mostly avoided you because your attitude ticks me off and I'd rather not spend my time angry.

 

Your right...he needs thick skin and so do you...maybe it'll give you a glimpse of what its like to be me and have a religion I can't stand shoved down my throat almost every day. Thick skin? Ha, my skin has to be tougher than rhino hide to avoid getting pissed off at some christian on a weekly basis.

 

Go live in a Muslim country and see how long it takes for you to develop a strong anger at having Islam shoved down your throat every day...then you'll understand why WE get angry, again you were warned that there would be 'strong' responses in the fourm and you decided to come here.

 

I don't go into christian churches yelling Jesus is a retard or something like that, I would expect an angry reponse from that...so why does it supprise you that WE get angry. If the shoe was on the other foot most christian fourms would have simply banned me, the fact that we haven't should tell you something about our ability to be "open minded" Have you ever gone to christianforums and seen the way CHRISTIANS "pounce" on non believers who go there and dare to state their opinions. There may be less cussing, but that doesn't make them any nicer.

 

Of course Amy you are welcome to post your opinion and so is Scott, but this is, after all, our website...if you post your opinion we will post ours as well...why does it supprise you that we don't agree with you? What seems to really offend you is that someone would dare to have an opinion that different from yours....sorry Amy but I'm not obliged to agree with you or your make believe god.

 

Now for the last time Amy quit trying to vilify us and quit acting like a damn martyr...no one here is "out to get you"

 

 

How about Scott's scenario about the tornado? His house was spared, but what about his neighbors that lost theirs? He believes God answered his prayer and God had something else planned for his neighbors. That's just one way to look at it, and a lot of other people here have already pointed out other ways.

 

 

Yes, since not all prayers are anwered with a yes then the bible god must play favorites...this in itself makes the christian god into something less than omnibenevolent.

[Ramen666]

Ok Amy and Scott I have to point something

 

I am being hypothetical on this:

 

Lets pretend that Amy/ Scott are right....

 

Let's say God has helped you and God is all that the king. I am apparently an athesist, so why didn't God show me a prayer worked so I would be still be walking in his footsteps. Why would he abandon me?

 

Before I hear Gods will shouted out at me and all the rest off of us:

 

We all were Christians at one time, why would God allow as out of the sheep heard. Some us prayed but we recieved nothing. So what I get out of this God wants us to be athesist. Because I remeber my last prayer almost word for word.

 

" Please show me you exsist...answer one of my prayers. If you don't you don't exsist and I will become atheist."

 

Now with that being said. God loves us so much right? If God loved me he would of continued and revealed himself to me and not leave me out wondering, I would still be a Christian maybe if he actually "showed" himself to me. But he didn't because no matter on anything how much I prayed it didn't work.

 

There is one event that happend at my church that I will not forget. Got that chill down my spine. It was a hint of me becoming an unbeliever at the time. During Sunday School back when I was in middle school. ( Now I am going to be a Freshmen in college) someone in my sunday school classes dad collasped next door. He had a heart attack while preaching and telling the word. An ambulance came and took him away this was between services. So as the next service began everyone was alarmed what was going on. The head pastor prayed that everything would be ok. There was lots of prayer at that time all around. During the middle of the service some guy came up to the pastor. Our pastor announced that the man had died of a heart attack...

 

Now tell me Amy or Scott why would God do that to the one kid in my Sunday School class. What did he ever do? He worked with the Church, and he was a nice guy. They prayed and nothing came of it. The people in New Oreleans I bet prayed too and look what happend.

 

Think of prayer as a whole and not on an indvidual basis. Life is like a game of chance. It is all probability. Life can be put in an probablilty equation. Howver I see prayer has no effects.

 

Another example while I am ranting on this subject. My parents prayed I would do good on my finals. Guess what I did. It was not prayer though I prepared extra hard and hardly had any finals. Except even with them praying I still failed my math final. Like they pray every finals and I always failed it.

 

Now Amy/Scott in these real life examples tell me where was the answer to the prayer.

 

You will say "God's will." Well it's God's will that that kid lost his father, God's will that people burned to death in the WTC, God's will 1,000,000's of Jews died. Finally God's will that we are unbeliievers.

[white_raven23]

Have you ever gone to christianforums and seen the way CHRISTIANS "pounce" on non believers who go there and dare to state their opinions. There may be less cussing, but that doesn't make them any nicer.

 

And they chew the shit out of each other too. They don't need unbelievers to grind.

 

Kind of ironic really. There's deists, pagans, and atheists here.....and while there may be the occasional flame here and there (and even then it's usually over something personal and non-religion based at all), WE manage to be civil and get along together on the same forum.

 

The same cannot be said for christianforums. And they have every reason in the word to be pissed and jealous of our relative harmony and peace......a state they claim to possess, but do not show evidence of within their own discussions.

[Ramen666]

Amy I find it funny you are ignoreing the last post. Please answer it when you can.

[Ramen666]

That sounds like a poem or a sonnet. Hey but that still doesn't make since. God is suppose to love us but are we suppose to understand it. He doesn't acknowlege that "us fallen ones." He doesn't want us back...so why bother.

 

Anyway if Gods will is Gods will. I guess a majority of us on the boards are going in the eternal pressure cooker. We were destined for hell anyway. I guess in your eyes. Then that makes thw whole creation and religon scenerio fall apart right there. That is a whole other topic though.

 

 

Here is not a real life scenerio but a good one of how you say it works:

 

A father and a child are playing ball. The father somehow knows that his kid will end up getting shot by a drive by that is about to happen. The father just waits and does nothing the car comes by and the kid got shot. The kid does die and everyone is sad.

 

Now it is the same with God:

 

He knew we would be atheist or deist.

 

However I did give him a final shot in prayer to reveal himself. He did nothing so I thought well there is no God then.

 

God could have prevented all the stories on the testimonies section, child rapings, murders, The holocaust, 9/11. But he chose NOT to do anything.

 

Your response that I got from it " God works in mysterious ways." But that always doesn't fit what the Christians call the sinless, moral God. I am not attacking you in any way I just want you try to see what we are trying to say.

[Scott]

Ok Amy and Scott I have to point something

 

I am being hypothetical on this:

 

Lets pretend that Amy/ Scott are right....

 

Let's say God has helped you and God is all that the king. I am apparently an athesist, so why didn't God show me a prayer worked so I would be still be walking in his footsteps. Why would he abandon me?

 

Before I hear Gods will shouted out at me and all the rest off of us:

 

We all were Christians at one time, why would God allow as out of the sheep heard. Some us prayed but we recieved nothing. So what I get out of this God wants us to be athesist. Because I remeber my last prayer almost word for word.

 

" Please show me you exsist...answer one of my prayers. If you don't you don't exsist and I will become atheist."

 

Now with that being said. God loves us so much right? If God loved me he would of continued and revealed himself to me and not leave me out wondering, I would still be a Christian maybe if he actually "showed" himself to me. But he didn't because no matter on anything how much I prayed it didn't work.

 

There is one event that happend at my church that I will not forget. Got that chill down my spine. It was a hint of me becoming an unbeliever at the time. During Sunday School back when I was in middle school. ( Now I am going to be a Freshmen in college) someone in my sunday school classes dad collasped next door. He had a heart attack while preaching and telling the word. An ambulance came and took him away this was between services. So as the next service began everyone was alarmed what was going on. The head pastor prayed that everything would be ok. There was lots of prayer at that time all around. During the middle of the service some guy came up to the pastor. Our pastor announced that the man had died of a heart attack...

 

Now tell me Amy or Scott why would God do that to the one kid in my Sunday School class. What did he ever do? He worked with the Church, and he was a nice guy. They prayed and nothing came of it. The people in New Oreleans I bet prayed too and look what happend.

 

Think of prayer as a whole and not on an indvidual basis. Life is like a game of chance. It is all probability. Life can be put in an probablilty equation. Howver I see prayer has no effects.

 

Another example while I am ranting on this subject. My parents prayed I would do good on my finals. Guess what I did. It was not prayer though I prepared extra hard and hardly had any finals. Except even with them praying I still failed my math final. Like they pray every finals and I always failed it.

 

Now Amy/Scott in these real life examples tell me where was the answer to the prayer.

 

You will say "God's will." Well it's God's will that that kid lost his father, God's will that people burned to death in the WTC, God's will 1,000,000's of Jews died. Finally God's will that we are unbeliievers.

 

First I would like to say, there is no such thing as an "exchristian". You may think you are, but in the Biblical sense of the word, you were never really Christians, if you truly denied the Faith. Jesus stated in Matthew 10:26-10 that no one can snatch us out of the hand of God. So, if you fall from the Faith and never decide to come back, you were never in the Father's hand. You were never a sheep of Jesus; a Christian. 1 John 2:18-19 states that antichrists may have seemed to be a Christian, but they departed from the Faith. So, it's not possible to say you were once a true Christian, then left the Faith. No true Christians leave the Faith, and you will know a true Christian by the way they live.

 

Now, about that prayer you prayed....that was no prayer. It was commanding God. God is not commanded by men, for He is the Creator. We are to truly look for God, not say "Answer my prayer or else!". If we draw near to God, He will draw near to us, James 4:8. I'm sure people may have prayed many times, but they didn't receive the answer they wanted. God answers prayer the way He chooses, because He is God and we are His creation and He knows best. We have no power over Him. Now, some people, like I said, may pray in desperate situations, like a child's death; but if the child dies, he'll be in Heaven with Jesus and that is a whole lot better than living in this world.

[Thackerie]

... We all were Christians at one time, why would God allow as out of the sheep heard. Some us prayed but we recieved nothing. So what I get out of this God wants us to be athesist. ...

 

Been there, done that. I never prayed for god to prove its existence to me because I thought that might be just a bit too cheeky. But, in my last attempts to be a christian (abandoned more than 25 years ago), I did pray for god to strengthen my faith so I could see what they (the True Christians™) see.

 

Of course, you already know what the outcome was. Nadda. Zip. Zilch. Nothing.

 

I've often thought about it since and it seems to me that if there is a deity (not that I've seen any proof of that), maybe it does want us to be free-thinkers. It seems silly to think that the omnipotent divine whatsis would require worship (or anything at all) from us mere mortals, and the idea that faith (i.e., credulity) trumps rationality on the scale of desirable attributes seems downright bizarre to me.

 

But, maybe a higher power would want us to develop our intellects and advance as free beings not enslaved by any kind of ideology.

 

Anyway, it does give me a chuckle to think that when the fundies get to heaven, god will give them a good scolding for wasting their time believing in the nonsense in an old book of myths and folklore written by men over several centuries and then, she'll send them back to the equivalent of spiritual kindergarten -- while us freethinkers, agnostics, atheistics, etc. will advance to the next level. (OK, I don't really "believe" this, but it is a pleasant thought and just as valid as any of the opposing conjectures that other humans include in their religious outlook.)

[Antlerman]

I honestly appreciate you telling me your story. There are many "why's" and "what if's" in this world. I don't understand why God chooses to answer some prayers certain ways and others another way but in my opinion to say God never answers prayers, well, I don't see it that way. We don't always like or understand His choice. It's like the story of the embroider's weave. The side we are seeing doesn't make sense and looks confusing and ugly but the side the weaver has is a beautiful picture. He understands perfectly the pattern. We want to see. We want to make sense out of hard times but it's not time to show the full picture. He's waiting to finish, then we will see.

That is a really nice metaphor that can offer some sense of comfort in a poetic way, but the problem is that the biblical promise of "He shall not suffer you to be tested beyond that which you are able to bear," is something that I would say is disproven by each and every one of us here. What I mean is we all tried to see the bigger picture, God's "plan" in his infinite wisdom, having faith Father knows best, etc, but as his children there is a time for trust in the parent, and then there is time for the parent to help the child. In our despair, "daddy wasn't there".

 

Did we loose faith because of failed expectations? Not directly, but failure to respond to the sincere and reasonable needs of those who believed in, trusted, worshipped, followed him took its toll on the relationship. It can't be a one way relationship only, if your talking a personal God. In any relationship a faliure of communication leads to a faliure of the relationship. Ultimately the answer that satisfied the pain of the question of where he was, was to understand he never was.

 

I believe there is meaning in everything and every hardship can teach me something very important. The visionarys that most people respect had their dark night of the soul and came out on the other side with great wisdom. Some even denied and renounced God and some how found Him again.

I think that is a potentially healthy thing to do, to take an situation or event and try to make it meaningful in some way as to learn from it, but I would advise against trying to think that God was directing the events. It seems far better to see events as just occuring, some within our control, others not, and it is an opportunity for us to grow in. I know well how that the darkeness preceeds a great light in someone's life. In my case my denial of God has in fact allowed me to become more than I ever could as a Christian. I know that is very difficult for you to believe or accept, but I am deeply sincere in saying this. This is what my salvation was, my being born-again: to reject religious ideas about life and the universe. Back full circle Amy to God in the Box.

 

Yes, there are things that happen that can shake a persons faith to the core. I understand.

This was not to shake it to the core, it was to dismantle it, thus setting me free.

[Ramen666]

OMFG Scott you really are delusional. I don't base my life off the Bable. I can't believe I am hearing this. I read a whole thread on that man no Christian can argue it.

 

Scott why not read from the Quran. There is no such thing as ex-Muslim everyone is muslim to begin with. OMG Scott people like you is why are world is in a mess.

 

Scott here is a task for you:

 

If you can flp a coin 25 times and all comes up heads then your God exsists.

 

Here is what you need to do: Pray to Allah as him to let the coin be heads 25 times. Then flip the coin. You obviousally won't get heads 25 times. So therfore Allah doesn't exsist.

 

Now God do the same thing pray for the coin to land 25 times. If it does land 25 well you are right and we ARE ALL WRONG.

 

The coin won't make it. You will see that. Your conclusion is that God doesn't like to be tested. But in the Bable. God said he will answer all prayers. You can even move a mountain. Someone in the Bable must be wrong perhaps.

 

I don't give a shit what the Bible says I use it for my toilet paper. It hurts but it is damn worth it. The word of the lawd is down the toilet.

 

Since you insist on quoting the Bable that there is no such thing as an ex Christian. Why don't you believe in Allah, Buddah, Zeus. Because the Bable told you so. The Babble was written by man just like George Bush is man and makes mistakes. Yes I am not a George Bush fan but look how religon affecting him. Its the same thing.

[Ramen666]

Now, about that prayer you prayed....that was no prayer. It was commanding God. God is not commanded by men, for He is the Creator. We are to truly look for God, not say "Answer my prayer or else!". If we draw near to God, He will draw near to us, James 4:8. I'm sure people may have prayed many times, but they didn't receive the answer they wanted. God answers prayer the way He chooses, because He is God and we are His creation and He knows best. We have no power over Him. Now, some people, like I said, may pray in desperate situations, like a child's death; but if the child dies, he'll be in Heaven with Jesus and that is a whole lot better than living in this world.

 

 

 

Wait you are saying it like I am commanding God. Come on I ask him to reveal himself or I will be in the eternal pressure cooker for all eternity. It's a life and death situation in your terms. It's like when you are begging someone for help but they don't help and they walk off. Yes if I was commanding God. In the same way doesn't he do the same thing to us " Believe in me or else." sounds like someone who relates to God in Germany. ( Hitler)

[Thackerie]

... I don't give a shit what the Bible says I use it for my toilet paper. It hurts but it is damn worth it. The word of the lawd is down the toilet....

 

I wouldn't recommend that; it tends to mess up the plumbing. But, pages from a KJV bible do make excellent rolling papers in a pinch.

[Scott]

He has every right to command us. He made us. Answer this question: God made man to be in communion with Him. Man had everything, yet they disobeyed God. They knew the wages of sin are death, yet they did it anyway. Is God obligated to save us? No. Yet He made a way of salvation by giving His life for us. Ok, we sinned, God never sinned. He made a way to escape Hell, yet it's still His fault? No. It is our disbelief that sends us there, not God. Do you think God should force us to believe and make everything just the way we want it? It doesn't work that way.

[Thackerie]

He has every right to command us. He made us. Answer this question: God made man to be in communion with Him. Man had everything, yet they disobeyed God. They knew the wages of sin are death, yet they did it anyway. Is God obligated to save us? No. Yet He made a way of salvation by giving His life for us. Ok, we sinned, God never sinned. He made a way to escape Hell, yet it's still His fault? No. It is our disbelief that sends us there, not God. Do you think God should force us to believe and make everything just the way we want it? It doesn't work that way.

 

Yeah, really nice guy, that god of yours - he made a way to "save" us, his inferior creations, from the hell that he invented to punish us for a number of arbitrary things called "sins," which he also created. I call Bull Hockey!

[Ramen666]

God set up the condtions that we are in. I will play devi's advocate if what you are saying is true. These people are going to hell:

 

Buddahist ( Most of China)

 

Arabs ( Most of Middle East)

 

Native Americans ( Before British Came)

 

Egyptians

 

Greeks

 

Romans

 

Athesists

 

People in Africa in tribes (never seen missonary)

 

Everyone before 300 a.d. before the Bible came out

 

All these people because they don't believe in Babble God.

 

 

 

Why I am pointing out all these cutlures is because that is a lot of people to count going to hell just for not believing in God. The numbers add up. You will say it's there fault? If you were born in China or Middle East would you believe in God? No you would be Islamic.

[white_raven23]

He has every right to command us. He made us. Answer this question: God made man to be in communion with Him. Man had everything, yet they disobeyed God. They knew the wages of sin are death, yet they did it anyway. Is God obligated to save us? No. Yet He made a way of salvation by giving His life for us. Ok, we sinned, God never sinned. He made a way to escape Hell, yet it's still His fault? No. It is our disbelief that sends us there, not God. Do you think God should force us to believe and make everything just the way we want it? It doesn't work that way.

 

 

This line of reasoning has to start out with an assumption. That assumption would be assuming the bible is entirely factual. YOU believe the bible to be truth, WE do not. So trying to tell us how things are based on that understanding, and expecting us to respect it is pure folly.

 

And the thing about there being no such thing as an ex-christian because of these verses here in this book.....nothing new to us here. We've heard it from christian after christian.

 

And.....that means I get to repeat myself again!!!

 

*Ahem*

 

Whatever it was that we used to be, whatever you wish to call it, we are no longer. So telling us we never were something to begin with is irrelevant to what and who we are now. Instead of dealing with who we are now in the present (which would be relevant), like a true coward you address and attack the past instead.

 

This is Webmaster Dave's site. If he wants to call 'that which we were' 'Ex-Christian' so be it. Labels are sweeping generalizations that are accurate in some ways for some people, and blatantly inaccurate for others. That is not the point. The website had to be named something, Dave chose Ex-Christian. That is his right as webmaster. And here the rest of us choose to congregate....not based upon whatever it was we used to be, but who we are NOW. Because NOW is what is relevant....what we were is what we have overcome.

 

And you don't have to like it. No one asked or required you to like it either.

[Ladyfractal]

This is has to deal with my testimony and I was told by a fundie God helps people. Sure "God" does. This thread is for all of you to post incidents where prayer didn't work. Show examples of events, crisis and even make a fundie question his believes. Show that there is no such thing.

 

How is it possible that you can think that prayer helps no one, when you don't know everyone? I have experienced God's power, even His power to Salvation, His love, and His mercy. One time, there was a tornado heading in our direction, toward our house. Me, my mom, and my sister prayed together that the tornado would be cast into the sea, without hurting anyone. We turned on the news, and the whether man described what happened to the tornado, and it is just what we prayed for. That is just one of the things I have witnessed the Lord do.

 

Scott:

 

Interesting. Not entirely uncommon. Now, what would be an interesting question is whether anyone else had prayed that the tornado not hit THEIR house. In fact, we need not wonder because last year at this time, the world was shown just how much god doesn't answer prayers. The most religiose region, of the most religiose Industrialized nation was hit by a strong hurricane. The Gulf Coast, the watery part of the Bible Belt, was slammed into just as meterologists predicted. People had prayed that the storm would miss New Orleans, it hit the Big Easy anyway. People inside the Big Easy prayed that they would be saved. Some 1600 of them died. So while you *believe* that god intervened in your tornado scenario, that doesn't mean that god *actually* intervened. But even that isn't my core point.

 

There was a study published a few months back that was the best study done so far on intercessionary prayer. The total sample size was around 1800 people, conducted over a 10 year period in a double-blind fashion. The question that was being answered were two-fold:

 

1> Was there any effect of prayer on people who were going through cardiact surgery.

 

2> Was there any efffect on the recovery of people based upon whether or not they knew they were being prayed for.

 

The abstract of the study follows:

 

Abstract

 

Background

Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.

 

 

Methods

Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.

 

 

ResultsIn the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.

 

 

Conclusions

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

 

So, not only does prayer appear not to work but knowing you are being prayed for was actually *detrimental*. I think that would just about wrap up that issue. Now, of course, you will dismiss the study saying that God cannot be tested (but remember that the people doing the prayer were just told that they were praying for people, the ones prayed for just knew they were being prayed for). But really, this is the way that science--which studies the real world--works.

 

Cheers

lf

[Antlerman]

First I would like to say, there is no such thing as an "exchristian". You may think you are, but in the Biblical sense of the word, you were never really Christians, if you truly denied the Faith. Jesus stated in Matthew 10:26-10 that no one can snatch us out of the hand of God. So, if you fall from the Faith and never decide to come back, you were never in the Father's hand. You were never a sheep of Jesus; a Christian. 1 John 2:18-19 states that antichrists may have seemed to be a Christian, but they departed from the Faith. So, it's not possible to say you were once a true Christian, then left the Faith. No true Christians leave the Faith, and you will know a true Christian by the way they live.

Amy.... I just want you to know how tempted I feel at this moment to show unrestrained disrespect to Scott here.... but I am resisting. So you can see that these comments are really, really, really offensive to me and most everyone here? Do you see it? Do you feel it? Do you understand us a little better?

 

Scott, I'm going to be more of a Christian to you than you are to us. First of all as tempted as I am to say the F word to you I will not. This is offensive to me. You are a theological child to state anything as "the Bible says". What you are saying "the Bible says" is a particular view of theology taught by John Calvin known as predestination, or election, etc. This is disputed by Christians who feel it is all a matter of free will, and they can equally support their views with as many and more verses. If you were knowledgeable about the Bible and theology you would know this and not speak so "authoritatively" as you presume to do. This is an example of what I call Christian Arrogance.

 

If my faith was not real, if it was not sincere, if I was not a real Christian, if we here were not real Christians, then explain why this site exists??? It is a support community for people trying to get their lives straightened out after having been F*'d by the church into believing hollow promises and faulty knowledge. If it wasn't real to us, why all the PAIN!!?? You only feel pain when you were in love. It was real kiddo, and don't try to shove that fucking bullshit theology up our asses and insult us by discounting our pain that way!!

 

What I see is you freaked out that someone who believed as much or more than you do could possibly reject it. My bet is that any one of us here know more about the Bible and theology than you could hope to ever know, and you have to tell yourself that we were "never filled with the spirit", and "never really saw the light", to make yourself feel safe in believing in talking Donkey, walking snakes, and a 6000 year old earth myth. You can believe in flying monkeys for all I care, just don't insult the integrity of my whole being by using the Bible against me. This is your warning.

[Kuroikaze]

 

First I would like to say, there is no such thing as an "exchristian". You may think you are, but in the Biblical sense of the word, you were never really Christians, if you truly denied the Faith.

 

You know what....GO FUCK YOUR SELF. Is that RUDE enough for you...is your skin thick enough to take it?

 

You don't know a damn thing about me or anyone here, you have no idea how hard I prayed how long I studied the bible, how sincere my beliefs were. You want to come here and spout your asinine theories about who I am and act like you know every thing about me then go ahead... but I don't have to take it lying down.

 

If you don't like personal attacks I dont' care. when you say things like this YOU MAKE IT PERSONAL.

 

 

On another note, you DO know that there are many sects of christianity that think you CAN loose your salvation. Would you like a list?