Prayer Helps No One

[Mythra]

I agree with Ingersoll. That prayer is a needless disturbance of the air.

 

Scott: So God personally diffused a tornado because you asked him to. Ya think?

 

You see, God can't lose when it comes to "simple faith". Or the faith of the simple.

 

If you had prayed for the tornado to go away, and then it went ahead and zeroed in on your house, flattening the thing, would that prove to you that there was no God?

 

No.

 

You would say "His ways are not our ways" or "His will be done". Or, if you're a really bonzai thumper, you'd even thank him for it - because you trust him that much.

 

Win / win for God.

 

In one of the fundy churches I was in, we had a lady there who was real sick. Lupus, I think. We prayed for healing. She got sicker. We prayed week after week after week. We need a miracle, God. We went to the hospital and prayed, layed hands on her, fasted, the whole shiteroo.

 

She got sicker. Finally she died.

 

Then, we thanked God that she wasn't suffering anymore, and that she was enjoying boundless joy in heaven.

 

Simple faith.

 

Couldn't agree more.

[Kuroikaze]

Amy.... I just want you to know how tempted I feel at this moment to show unrestrained disrespect to Scott here.... but I am resisting. So you can see that these comments are really, really, really offensive to me and most everyone here? Do you see it? Do you feel it? Do you understand us a little better?

 

Sorry Antlerman I don't have as much restraint as you oh well

 

 

You're wrong. That's all I'll say.

 

Uh...was this directed at me? If so in what way am I wrong? this isn't very discriptive...

[Antlerman]

Amy.... I just want you to know how tempted I feel at this moment to show unrestrained disrespect to Scott here.... but I am resisting. So you can see that these comments are really, really, really offensive to me and most everyone here? Do you see it? Do you feel it? Do you understand us a little better?

 

Sorry Antlerman I don't have as much restraint as you oh well

Trust me, you said exactly what I wanted to. Man, that is so insulting, and he considers himself a True Christian. Let's see if he apologizes. Any bets anyone?

[Kuroikaze]

God answers prayer the way He chooses, because He is God and we are His creation and He knows best.

 

or the world just works the way it works no mater what make believe being you ask to change things....the results are the same either way, I've only removed an unnessary part of the equation, namely god.

 

If god were really here he could just show up and put an end to this arguement once and for all...the fact that he doesn't proves that, either he isn't here or doesn't care if we believe in him or not.

[Ramen666]

Flatter God and kiss his ass wipe it around real good and you will go heaven. That's what it is Scott. Just keep kissing Gods ass and you will end up in heaven and we will all be together in the eternal pressure cooker. Man Scott you have some nerve....

[white_raven23]

And there's no right whining about 'personal attacks'. A personal attack would be to attack you as a person Scott. Not that anyone has to be 'above' that to maintain membership here. We just tend to save it for Lion's Den threads (but not always....prosletyze elsewhere in Ex-C forums at your own peril). Taking the 'high road' is nice and fuzzy....and well suited for those who prefer not to get dirty. Bully for them. But that doesn't make those of us who willingly scrap less valuable, and it doesn't make what we have to say less valuable either (except maybe to you......but why does your opinion matter to us?)

 

Now, Scott, I can understand if you are so wrapped up in your religion, that it has become grafted into your identity.....so for you, just the existence of this website and people who endorse it is like a 'personal' attack to you. Our disagreement of the bible being thought of as fact is an insult to you. So you can wrap yourself up in prideful self-righteousness all you like.....we here at Ex-C will still be here tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

 

You will win back no re-converts here. All you can do here is create your own 'persecution' which we will gladly give you, for even we know it is artificial persecution. You want real persecution? Convert to Islam and go live in Jerusalem. Or convert to judaism and go live in Palestine. Until you get serious about persecution and martyrdom, no one here has any reason to respect you for submitting to the insults of ourselves.

This is why we don't respect Amy Marie.

 

Believe it or not, there are christians here who are quite welcome among us, and have found a place for themselves here without being antagonistic self-righteous prigs such as yourself. You'll know them when you see them.

[Antlerman]

Believe it or not, there are christians here who are quite welcome among us, and have found a place for themselves here without being antagonistic self-righteous prigs such as yourself. You'll know them when you see them.

I actually doubt he will. He will dismiss them to make himself feel safe in his snug little theological straight-jacket. Just wait till OM returns

[Scott]

Kuroikaze, my skin is plenty tough. Although I do not need thick skin at this site, because I don't mind personal attacks from this forum. You're right, I don't know how hard you prayed. Do you think we Christians have it easy? Yeah right. Do you think we just spout off religious crap just when everything is going well? Whatever. I went through Hell to find God. I felt as though God betrayed me, abandoned me, didn't care. I worshipped Satan, went into smoking and drinking, lusting. I was filled with hatred and I had no peace. I'm still working on some of these things, but I know God is with me and He will strengthen me. I don't spout all this stuff about "You can find God" without personal experience. From what I used to be, I can say, if God can reach me, He can reach anyone. If I was rude, then I'm sorry. But I know how hard it can be to truly find God and experience His love, and I know how hard life can be.

[Kuroikaze]

 

You will win back no re-converts here. All you can do here is create your own 'persecution' which we will gladly give you, for even we know it is artificial persecution. You want real persecution? Convert to Islam and go live in Jerusalem. Or convert to judaism and go live in Palestine. Until you get serious about persecution and martyrdom, no one here has any reason to respect you for submitting to the insults of ourselves.

This is why we don't respect Amy Marie.

 

 

 

Exactly, why would I try christianity again? I'm not THAT stupid...even a child will learn not to stick there hand in a fire once they have been burned once.

 

And most of us start out polite until someone starts saying offensive and or stupid things like "you were never a christian" or "why do you hate Jesus so much" statments like those just show preconcieved notions and an inability/unwilliness to learn who we are...

 

Scott here is a little tip, You can't learn more about us when you've already decided you know every thing about us.

[Kurari]

First I would like to say, there is no such thing as an "exchristian". You may think you are, but in the Biblical sense of the word, you were never really Christians, if you truly denied the Faith.

 

That's really not a fair assumption, Scott. As you said before, how can you say something like that about everyone when you don't know everyone?

 

He has every right to command us. He made us. Answer this question: God made man to be in communion with Him. Man had everything, yet they disobeyed God. They knew the wages of sin are death, yet they did it anyway.

 

Except the Serpent said:

 

3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

That's exactly what happened. They didn't die. The serpent told the truth, and God apperantly lied if you take that God meant death in the very literal sense. Or if it was in the metaphorical sense, that's a pretty vague description of what's going to happen.

 

Also, in order to sin, you have to have knowledge of good and evil. Neither Adam or Eve had that when they took the fruit, so Eve didn't know disobeying god was wrong. God never actually told either of them, "This is going to make me really upset with you, so please don't do it." He just said she would die. So here the serpent says, "That's not what's going to happen," so in her innocence Eve eats and gets her eyes opened.

 

Now comes the big quandry: Did Jehovah know this was going to happen? Jehovah being a god and supposedly All Knowing must have forseen this, so Eve must have been set up since she was doing exactly what He knew she would do. Or if Jehovah didn't know (as He apperantly isn't all knowing since He asks later "where are you" when they hide) then either He has terrible planning skills, (which I have a hard time believing of a god), or this is a fallacy in a tale created and told by men (most likely).

 

Is God obligated to save us? No. Yet He made a way of salvation by giving His life for us. Ok, we sinned, God never sinned. He made a way to escape Hell, yet it's still His fault? No. It is our disbelief that sends us there, not God. Do you think God should force us to believe and make everything just the way we want it? It doesn't work that way.

 

Honestly, this was the biggest problem I saw with Christianity. An All Knowing, all Encompassing, All loving, All perfect, All Being creates imperfect creatures to do exactly what He knows they are going to do, gets mad about it, and creates a place of horrendous atrocity and eternal torment for doing things we wouldn't even send our fellow men in for to scare them into doing what He wants.

 

I believe in God, but I can't believe in Jehovah.

[Mythra]

We weren't true christians??

 

Say it ain't so.

 

 

Gee, never heard that one before on this site.

 

[Thackerie]

Kuroikaze, my skin is plenty tough. Although I do not need thick skin at this site, because I don't mind personal attacks from this forum. You're right, I don't know how hard you prayed. Do you think we Christians have it easy? Yeah right. Do you think we just spout off religious crap just when everything is going well? Whatever. I went through Hell to find God. I felt as though God betrayed me, abandoned me, didn't care. I worshipped Satan, went into smoking and drinking, lusting. I was filled with hatred and I had no peace. I'm still working on some of these things, but I know God is with me and He will strengthen me. I don't spout all this stuff about "You can find God" without personal experience. From what I used to be, I can say, if God can reach me, He can reach anyone. If I was rude, then I'm sorry. But I know how hard it can be to truly find God and experience His love, and I know how hard life can be.

 

Well, goody goody for you. Now go enjoy your life ... and death, and rebirth or whatever. No one is telling you to change. No body here came seeking you out to try to deconvert you. No one gives a damn what you believe in.

 

There are people who post on this site who believed the same stuff you say you do -- some of them for decades, some of them as members of the clergy. Been there. Done that. Rejected it. There is nothing new you have to tell us, and spouting bible verses isn't going to win us back.

 

So, no converts for you. No gold star for being a martyr, either.

 

But, if you have nothing better to do with your time than post here in a forum for folks who have tried and rejected your religion, go right ahead. Every time you insult us by proclaiming that we were never True Christians™ like the oh-so-wise Dr. Scott or fling bible verses at us, it just reinforces how glad we are to be free of your mind-fuck cult.

 

So, come to think of it, you are actually doing a valuable service in promoting deconversion from christinsanity. Keep up the good work!

[Kuroikaze]

Kuroikaze, my skin is plenty tough. Although I do not need thick skin at this site, because I don't mind personal attacks from this forum. You're right, I don't know how hard you prayed. Do you think we Christians have it easy? Yeah right. Do you think we just spout off religious crap just when everything is going well? Whatever. I went through Hell to find God. I felt as though God betrayed me, abandoned me, didn't care. I worshipped Satan, went into smoking and drinking, lusting. I was filled with hatred and I had no peace. I'm still working on some of these things, but I know God is with me and He will strengthen me. I don't spout all this stuff about "You can find God" without personal experience. From what I used to be, I can say, if God can reach me, He can reach anyone. If I was rude, then I'm sorry. But I know how hard it can be to truly find God and experience His love, and I know how hard life can be.

 

 

Yeah? well I went through hell to get AWAY from the christian religion... I can't speak for your other problems. Of course not to judge you...but I've heard many christians talk about their "sinful" life before christ. I used to ALL the time my self, in all honesty I wasn't really that bad...chistianity just teaches people to hate their own bodies and their own natural desires. I personally think the body is a wonderful thing.

 

Lust? I don't think its such a bad thing, I mean, you don't want to just let it run wild...but how many non-christians do you know who just have sex without thinking about the results of their actions? Maybe in highschool, but highschool students do EVERYTHING without thinking...thats not a God issue just a maturity issue.

 

Smoking? I've never smoked...to me is a gross (and expensive) habit, but I woudn't call it a sin. other people are free to do what they choose.

 

Drinking? I drink occasionally, but not very often, nothing wrong with it if its handled responsibly...again this is not a god issue but one of maturity and thinking about the results of your actions.

 

You list all these things, but how bad were you really? binge drinking? engaging in orgies? smoking 10 packs a day? Maybe you were really this messed up and Christianity gave you the desire to be better...if so I have no desire to take that away from you, believe what you want, its no skin off my back. However, Christianity never made MY life any better.

 

I was not claiming you had no experience...only that my experience contradicts yours...we can't both be right, but if I have to choose between trusting my experience and YOURS, guess which I'll choose.

 

I didn't have it easy either, I spent literally YEARS obsessing over every fine point of theology and reading every single book on christian theology... I was a religion major in college so I had the background. I've books by every major theologian in christian history for the past 1600 years and they all disagree with one another and NONE of them create a logicaly consistent picture of God.

 

I was determined to worship god in his truest form...if my theology was wrong then I felt I would be worshiping an idol, so I studied and in the end none of the theologies worked and NONE of my prayers for faith were answered. Its not MY fault I don't believe. If the christian god is real then he apparently didn't want me because he never revealed himself to me. My conclusion, is that he cannot be real, because the christian version of god is logical contradictory, and totally cruel and self centered if he did exist.

 

Scott, your talking to someone who knows the bible, and biblcal history better than 99% of christians out there....though my understanding of it probably differs from yours a bit.

[Taphophilia]

Kuroikaze, my skin is plenty tough. Although I do not need thick skin at this site, because I don't mind personal attacks from this forum. You're right, I don't know how hard you prayed. Do you think we Christians have it easy? Yeah right. Do you think we just spout off religious crap just when everything is going well? Whatever. I went through Hell to find God. I felt as though God betrayed me, abandoned me, didn't care. I worshipped Satan, went into smoking and drinking, lusting. I was filled with hatred and I had no peace. I'm still working on some of these things, but I know God is with me and He will strengthen me. I don't spout all this stuff about "You can find God" without personal experience. From what I used to be, I can say, if God can reach me, He can reach anyone. If I was rude, then I'm sorry. But I know how hard it can be to truly find God and experience His love, and I know how hard life can be.

 

Hi Scott,

 

Welcome to ExC.

 

Do you see the big letters at the top of the page? The ones that say EXCHRISTIAN.NET?

 

It means that we used to be Christians. We used to be Christians just like you are. We said the same things you are saying. We believed the same things you are spouting. We thought people who didn't believe the same way we did were going to Hell.

 

So, do you have any idea how irritating it is when people come here and disregard those big letters at the top of the page?

[Antlerman]

Kuroikaze, my skin is plenty tough. Although I do not need thick skin at this site, because I don't mind personal attacks from this forum. You're right, I don't know how hard you prayed. Do you think we Christians have it easy? Yeah right. Do you think we just spout off religious crap just when everything is going well? Whatever. I went through Hell to find God. I felt as though God betrayed me, abandoned me, didn't care. I worshipped Satan, went into smoking and drinking, lusting. I was filled with hatred and I had no peace. I'm still working on some of these things, but I know God is with me and He will strengthen me. I don't spout all this stuff about "You can find God" without personal experience. From what I used to be, I can say, if God can reach me, He can reach anyone. If I was rude, then I'm sorry. But I know how hard it can be to truly find God and experience His love, and I know how hard life can be.

That little tiny blurb hiding in the middle there is barely noticable, and doesn't really sound all too heartfelt of an apology for insulting us. I'm not hearing a sincere remorse for offending us here. I'm choosing not to accept this as an apology until I hear a genuine recognition of our complaint.

 

As far as the rest of your pre-Christian, self-loathing facade, I don't accept it. You say you worshipped Satan? In what way, your lifestyle? Were you a bonifide Satanist, complete with religious rites and practices? I somehow doubt it, but you may have been. I have heard too many fundi's flatter themselves saying they were atheists or whatnot, simply because they had never thought about God and just lived life like any normal human being.

 

You know what? Christianity creates the problem, then sells you the cure. You were a human being like the rest of the entire world with your ups and downs, strengths and shortcommings, learing lessons both easy and difficult, making mistakes, having sucesses, etc. Guess what? You still do!! Yet the church says that being human means your destiny is HELL!!!! So they sell you the cure, putting your cash into their coffers. The beauty of the con of course is that once you think you've done something about your problem, you feel like things are better. Of course, this same effect is accomplished by following any course of action based on decisions in your life, no matter what the doctrine is. It then becomes a self-reinforcing delusion that the Christ-salesman spoke the truth and you in fact purchased the right magic elixir! You just purchased snake oil.

[mwc]

Do you think we Christians have it easy? Yeah right. Do you think we just spout off religious crap just when everything is going well? Whatever. I went through Hell to find God. I felt as though God betrayed me, abandoned me, didn't care. I worshipped Satan, went into smoking and drinking, lusting. I was filled with hatred and I had no peace. I'm still working on some of these things, but I know God is with me and He will strengthen me. I don't spout all this stuff about "You can find God" without personal experience. From what I used to be, I can say, if God can reach me, He can reach anyone. If I was rude, then I'm sorry. But I know how hard it can be to truly find God and experience His love, and I know how hard life can be.

I'm confused Scott. Other than the condescending tone ("Do you think we Christians have it easy? Yeah right."...ummm...yes...I do...you *are* the majority where I live, Scott, and I do think you spout of religious crap whenever you things are going good/bad/indifferent...don't forget...I *was* one of you so I know the routine), anyhow, you say you went through hell to find god. You felt as though god betrayed you. So this implies that you already knew god though. So did you find god or did you already know god?

 

Sounds like one of those "I rebelled against god" stories. You know. The "real" prodigal son stories that we're all supposed to have in our closets. I had counselors at camp that told these types of stories. None of them ever just were born and raised xians like I was for some reason. So then you managed to get into all the vices it seems, except for gambling...good for you (you gotta know when 'ta hold'em). Then you gave up and found god, or refound god, or found a god or picked the most popular god in your local vicinity because had you been in the Middle East you be praising Allah.

 

Anyhow, it's easy to tell from your story that you were the worst person on earth. If we were to do a survey we would find that Scott was at the very bottom of all society, everywhere. There was no one lower on the entire planet than Scott. Which makes your statement of if you can do it then anyone can do it true. I'm a changed man thanks to your story Scott. You've shown me how a little condescending attitude, followed on by a little insincere testimony can turn a life around.

 

What's your next tactic going to be? Will it actually be trying to communicate with us as intelligent human beings or is that simply asking to much?

 

mwc

[Scott]

You tell us to have "thick skin", yet you can't handle it when Christians share what we believe, talk about, and quote the Bible. I am not being condescening. I am, probably like the other Christians here, stating my beliefs. My belief is the Bible. I, and every other Christian, believe the Bible to be 100% true. I accept that you're not Christians. I know this. I am not here to "win converts". I first came here because this site popped up when I was looking for something else, and I came in out of curiousity. I do not lie either. That post I wrote about what I was like before I was a Christian is 100% true.

 

If the "I'm sorry" didn't sound to heartfelt then...I'm sorry lol, it's because I don't believe I have been rude or condescening. I am, like you, stating what I believe in.

[Antlerman]

You tell us to have "thick skin", yet you can't handle it when Christians share what we believe, talk about, and quote the Bible. I am not being condescening. I am, probably like the other Christians here, stating my beliefs. My belief is the Bible. I, and every other Christian, believe the Bible to be 100% true. I accept that you're not Christians. I know this. I am not here to "win converts". I first came here because this site popped up when I was looking for something else, and I came in out of curiousity. I do not lie either. That post I wrote about what I was like before I was a Christian is 100% true.

 

If the "I'm sorry" didn't sound to heartfelt then...I'm sorry lol, it's because I don't believe I have been rude or condescening. I am, like you, stating what I believe in.

No, you are chosing what to say to the audience you are speaking to. That you believe it's part of your theology is one thing, you chosing to say it to us here speaks of questionable motives on your part. Again, did you bother to ask how we felt about our faith before? No you did not. What's even more is that after I and others expressed great displeasure at your dismissing us this way, you present self-justifying excuses, and do not recognize or feel shit for us as people. You're being right, is of ultimate importance to you. I could speak "the truth" about my perception of you, but is it the polite thing to do? Once I no longer care, I probably will.

 

No every other Christian does not believe the bible to be 100% true. In fact, you are in the minority on that one. You sound like you're pretty isolated in you knowedge of the world outside your county lines.

[Kuroikaze]

You tell us to have "thick skin", yet you can't handle it when Christians share what we believe, talk about, and quote the Bible. I am not being condescening. I am, probably like the other Christians here, stating my beliefs. My belief is the Bible. I, and every other Christian, believe the Bible to be 100% true. I accept that you're not Christians. I know this. I am not here to "win converts". I first came here because this site popped up when I was looking for something else, and I came in out of curiousity. I do not lie either. That post I wrote about what I was like before I was a Christian is 100% true.

 

If the "I'm sorry" didn't sound to heartfelt then...I'm sorry lol, it's because I don't believe I have been rude or condescening. I am, like you, stating what I believe in.

 

 

Look at it this way...if you got involved with a cult for years and finally broke free from it. Then spent years unlearning and trying to forget all the junk they shoved down your throat. How would you react if a member of that cult dropped by your house and "stated their beliefs?" I bet you might get angry and even irrational.

 

And before you give a knee jerk reaction to the cult analogy, most christian denomonations have ALL the trademarks of a cult. The only REAL difference between dogmatic religions and a cult is cultural acceptance.

 

You say you did all those things before you were a christian...but my whole point was that your statements were too vauge to make a judgement call.

 

You say you lusted, but what exactly does that mean? If you mean you engaged in orgies all the time and drugged women to rape them or something like that then I'd say you weren't a very good person and would applaud your change no matter the source.

 

But if all your saying is that you occasionally got a hard on when you saw a womans cleavage, or you looked up some internet porn to let of some stress...the I'd say your just like everyone else and your only problem is that you have bought into a religion that teaches us that our natural sexual desires are dirty and wrong.

[Taphophilia]

Scott,

 

It doesn't have anything to do with stating your beliefs or quoting scripture. Most on here know more about Christianity and the Bible than you do. Who do you think we are? We used to be Christians! (I'm trying to get this point across. We used to be Christians!)

 

Some here were Pastors, theology students, have degrees in religion, etc. Think about it. Oh, but your relgion doesn't allow you to think for yourself but only to believe what you are told to believe.

[Kuroikaze]

the other problem I have with you is that you keep talking about YOUR experience and how we can't just ignore what you experinced.

 

However when you say things like "we were never christians" You are denying OUR experience, bassed on the words of a bunch of books written between 2,700 and 1,800 years ago.

 

I'm willing to bet that none of these writers knew me, yet you feel they know more about me than I know about myself.

 

If I cannot discount your experiences then why do you feel so free to deny mine? At best your being presumtious... at worse your just being a jerk who cares more about a bunch of old dusty books than you care about people.

[Scott]

Taphophilia, you don't know if I know a great deal or just a little of the Bible.

 

Kuroikaze, what I believe in is not religion. I don't even attend a church right now, although I'm looking for one. I don't think Christianity is or is like a cult. However, I hear what you're saying. While I believe the Bible to be 100% accurate, I understand that you don't. I also know that when I was not a Christian I hated the feeling of people trying to "convert" me. I'm not trying to convert you, but I know that's how it's coming across, and I do apoligize for that.

 

Antlerman, yes. Every Christian believes the Bible to be 100% accurate.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, yes. Every Christian believes the Bible to be 100% accurate.

Bullshit. You're playing games saying that those who don't aren't Christians. You know zero about history.

[Taphophilia]

Scott,

 

I made no assumption of how much of the Bible you know. I said there are people here who know the Bible better than you do. Many deconverted from reading it.

[Scott]

I know plenty about history. I also know what the Church teaches today; that the Bible was written by holy men who were moved by the Holy Spirit, therefore it is infallible and inerrant.