Smoking And Second-hand Smoke

[benjaburns]

I personally believe that anyone should be allowed to smoke if they want to and that smoking shouldn't be banned (though some people do want it banned). After all, it is a free country. However, what about second-hand smoke? I've heard a crapload of stuff about how it's just as harmful as regular cigarette smoke but then I saw this:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...&q=bullshit

 

It's a Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode about how the reports that found that second-hand smoking was bad were exaggerated and that the regular scientific processes had been ignored so that the EPA could show that second-hand smoke was harmful. I looked on wikipedia but it only mentioned the studies that found that second-hand smoke was harmful, barely mentioning the studies that contradicted those findings. So, now I don't know what to believe. Do any of you know what the real deal with second-hand smoke is or, at least, what the best information on second-hand smoke's effects is?

[Entgegen]

Well, I on occasion smoke a pipe (yes, with tobacco), and I used to frequent a pipe-smoking internet forum, and the subject of second-hand smoke came up, accompanied by the usual rant about belligerent anti-smoking nazis who hold the belief that if they can smell the smoke, then you're infringing upon their right not to get lung cancer. Anyway, one of the members, an engineer, replied and basically said that the cloud of smoke becomes so diluted by the air so quickly that in the extremely unlikely event that any harmful carcinogens got into a passers-by's lungs, they'd be in such small concentrations that nothing could possibly happen. I only mentioned that the particular member of the group was an engineer because he was able to go into more depth about the dilution of small volumes of gas particles (smoke) in a much larger gas volume (open air) than I can.

[Thackerie]

Well, I on occasion smoke a pipe (yes, with tobacco), and I used to frequent a pipe-smoking internet forum, and the subject of second-hand smoke came up, accompanied by the usual rant about belligerent anti-smoking nazis who hold the belief that if they can smell the smoke, then you're infringing upon their right not to get lung cancer. Anyway, one of the members, an engineer, replied and basically said that the cloud of smoke becomes so diluted by the air so quickly that in the extremely unlikely event that any harmful carcinogens got into a passers-by's lungs, they'd be in such small concentrations that nothing could possibly happen. I only mentioned that the particular member of the group was an engineer because he was able to go into more depth about the dilution of small volumes of gas particles (smoke) in a much larger gas volume (open air) than I can.

 

Yeah, I had an engineer friend who explained the same thing to me years ago (I think it was the same thing; a lot of it went over my head. )

 

I don't smoke in other people's homes without being invited to do so, because I don't think it's polite to stink up someone else's place. And, I really don't mind not being able to smoke in a restaurant because it keeps the air fresher. But, I agree that the threat of second-hand smoke has been greatly exaggerated, and I think that statutes that ban smoking in outdoor-environments are going too far (e.g., there are places where you cannot smoke on the balcony of your own apartment. Ridiculous!)

[benjaburns]

Do you know of any sites that talk about how the claims of secondhand smoke have been exaggerated?

[Thackerie]

Do you know of any sites that talk about how the claims of secondhand smoke have been exaggerated?

 

Here's one -- http://www.ncpa.org/iss/hea/2003/pd051603b.html

 

You can find more by doing a search (on google or your favorite browser) using the following tags (just as I've done here, in the dark blue text, with quotation marks where indicated, etc.):

 

"second-hand smoke" exaggerated

[Dhampir]

Fuck what the health threats are, there are those among us that find it disgusting. To us it smells nasty, permeates our own smell once exposed, and if someone has the right to smoke in public, which I personally don't grudge, then we have the right to not be exposed to it.

[woodsmoke]

I think what it comes down to for most non-smokers (as well as the loud, militant retards, even if they don't want to admit it) isn't so much that we're worried about getting cancer as--to most of us--it just fuckin' stinks.

 

That said, I'm not about to go about telling other people they're not allowed to light up in any area I might smell it. Inside public service venues and my own house, yeah, but not outside or in bars/clubs. Outside I can move, and in bars and clubs it pretty well comes with the territory--though I do think the latter could be solved to everyone's satisfaction by simply including ventilation systems to minimize the impact in establishments where smoking is likely to occur.

[benjaburns]

I think what it comes down to for most non-smokers (as well as the loud, militant retards, even if they don't want to admit it) isn't so much that we're worried about getting cancer as--to most of us--it just fuckin' stinks.

 

That said, I'm not about to go about telling other people they're not allowed to light up in any area I might smell it. Inside public service venues and my own house, yeah, but not outside or in bars/clubs. Outside I can move, and in bars and clubs it pretty well comes with the territory--though I do think the latter could be solved to everyone's satisfaction by simply including ventilation systems to minimize the impact in establishments where smoking is likely to occur.

 

I completely agree. I wasn't saying that I think smokers should just light up wherever the hell they feel like it and fuck it if you don't like it, I just meant that I don't think smoking should be made illegal like marijuana smoking is illegal.

[woodsmoke]

Agreed.

 

'Course, I also think marijuana should be legalized. I've no desire to use it myself, but the "case" for its being outlawed is just stupid.

[benjaburns]

Agreed.

 

'Course, I also think marijuana should be legalized. I've no desire to use it myself, but the "case" for its being outlawed is just stupid.

 

Also agreed

[Dhampir]

Illegalizing cigarettes would murder the case for legalizing weed. I just wish mutha' fuckers wouldn't smoke. That shit is nasty. Or at least make it smell better; I much prefer the smell of pipe tobacco. Hell, I could even stand for cigar smell. That still wouldn't make it look good to me though.

[Biggles7268]

good cigars and pipes don't bother me at all, cigarette smoke is fucking nasty as hell though. i always get a massive headache when i'm around it and it. and i'm sorry but while you do have the right to smoke you don't have the right to force the stench on other people. if you can't go through a 45 minute meal in a restaurant without lighting up then you have a couple of problems. the one that concerns me the most is a lack of respect or consideration for anyone else around you. i think our right to breathe supercedes your right to smoke wherever the hell you want.

[Crunk Bishop]

i grew up in a house where both of my parents were smokers. i used to hate it, my christian school teachers would always sweat me about smoking because i smelled like smoke.

 

i'm pretty much a non-smoker. i even tried to start once and i just never got into it. i might have one or two cigarettes a year, and i've pretty much gotta be wasted.

 

i don't mind even hand rolled cigarettes, but i don't like the smell of pre-rolled pack cigarettes.

 

i think it's weird to prohibit smoking in bars, though... people just end up standing out in the streets and thats dangerous. i don't really see the point in smoking in restaurants. kinda fun to see a movie in a bar, though, smoke and drink.

[LadyFeline]

Tobacco smoke, no matter the kind - pipe, cigarette, etc - makes me sick. Literally. I can't stand the smell. It aggravates my lungs, makes my eyes burn and water, and sears my mucous membranes.

 

That, and it reminds me of my dad, and pretty much any thought of him turns my stomach, since he reeks of tobacco smoke 24/7/365.

 

So, whether or not it's dangerous, I'd prefer not to be exposed to it. Besides, it's just rude to smoke around strangers.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

Personally, your right to smoke does not supercede my right to comfort in a public place. I don't give a shit if your second hand smoke is going to kill me or not, I don't want to smell it! If you want to smoke, go somewhere else and smoke.

 

Second hand smoke may not be AS harmful as sucking it straight out of the cancer stick, but you can't tell me it isn't detrimental to my health to breath that toxic shit in any form or fashion. I love Penn and Teller's Bullshit series, but c'mon. You can't believe EVERYTHING you see on TV...or read on the Internet for that matter.

 

I don't care enough about the subject to do any real research on it. I grew up with a bastard of a step-father breathing his second hand smoke in my face for the better part of my childhood and I'm still alive. He on the other hand isn't so lucky. Coughed his lungs up with emphysema and is surely dead by now.

[Beowulf]

I have an aunt who never smoked, but worked in an office full of smokers (before any prohibitions on smoke in the workplace were in effect.) This was in NC, tobacco capital of the US. She died from - you guessed it! - lung cancer.

 

I can't stand the smell of it either, and any smoke sets off my wife's allergies something fierce. However, let's put together another hypothetical. Let's say we have someone who, by choice, refuses to bathe. This person has tremendous B.O., and tries to enter a fine restaurant. What kind of reaction to you think he (or she) will get?

 

One stench is socially acceptable (but becomming less so), and the other is not.

[godlessgrrl]

My grandfather was a smoker for most of his life. Started young, and was just never able to quit, despite trying a number of times. He did manage to cut back over time, mostly after pressure from my grandmother, as people came to realize just how toxic smoking really is.

 

He didn't start chainsmoking again until after my grandmother died.... of lung cancer.

 

She'd never smoked a day in her life and was healthier than anybody else in the family. And she died of lung cancer, not my grandfather.

 

I don't know what it was about her genetics or the smoke or whatever it was that led to whatever mutation had to happen for her cells to freak out on her and give her lung cancer. But the anecdote of her death suggests to me that under the "right" circumstances, second-hand smoke can indeed kill somebody.

 

Every time? No, probably not. Most of the time? Eh, probably not that either. Enough of the time that I don't want to breathe it protractedly? Yeah, definitely.

 

At the same time, I don't think that smoking per se should be outlawed, simply contained. I have little sympathy for parents who smoke heavily around their kids, since growing bodies don't tolerate potential toxins as well as adult bodies. I also have little sympathy for people who go to bars and expect them not to be smoke-filled. (My state just recently passed an anti-smoking law and now you can't even light up in a bar... I'll never be able to figure that one out.) I mean shit, it's a bar for chrissakes, people are there to indulge their vices.

 

Nowadays I dislike folks smoking around me because it tends to irritate my respiratory tract (I'm prone to bronchitis), and because it just plain stinks. I don't care of guests smoke, they just have to do it on the porch, outside.

[NotBlinded]

I understand all the complaints about smoke inside of a public place. I have no problem with that. But what about the people that get head-aches and can't breath from people's cologne or perfume? Will the time arrive when public places can ban these things because some people are allergic to it? What about the people that are allergic to grass? Should parks put down turf for them?

 

Really though...I don't mind smoking outside wearing my perfume on my nice lawn.

[fallenleaf]

First, the fact that someone was exposed to smoke and later got lung cancer does not provide any sort of evidence for smoking causing lung cancer. Not only is it anecdotal (which is scientifically invalid for proof) but it neglects that simple fact that lung cancer, while rare, does occur randomly just like many other forms of cancer. Smoking is an indicator for lung cancer but it is not the only substance which plays a role in it and lung cancer of any sort can develop without exposure to smoke.

 

Second, you have no right to not be irritated and disgusted by the people around you. That right doesn't exist. My mother gets migraines from the vast majority of perfumes (anything but the slightest exposure will put her out of commission for hours). This was bad enough that growing up I had the buy scentless deoderants and other such things... But the fact that she does get violently ill because someone chose to wear perfume does not mean we need to forbid perfume wearing in public. You don't like it... that's fine. I don't like street preachers but I have no right to demand an end to people sharing their beliefs. This, "I have a right to not be exposed to smoke" bullshit is the worst thing about the anti-smoking movement.

 

The health risks of smoking itself are debatable (particularily when it comes to proving causation over indicator -- which is to say it's not that anyone believes the behavior is without risk but the level of risk is debated) and the risks of second hand smoke are laughable. Penn and Teller have a nice introduction but there are many more papers and reports out there. I had a book (For Your Own Good: The Tyrany of the Public Health Movement) which not only did a good job of discussing the actual statistics behind smoking but provided pages and pages of references to journals, research, and reports regarding this. The fact that most (if not all) of our "proof" that it's wrong comes from a report which was thrown out for being deliberately biased -- that just amuses the hell out of me.

[white_raven23]

I can't stand cig smoke. It chokes the hell out of me. BUT....while I don't want it around me, I do this cool thing, and I get away from it when it becomes too much.

 

They've outlawed smoking in most public building here....and as of next year they are even getting it out of bars and such too.....which I find a bit odd. A smoke-free bar? I'd probably like it....but I still find it weird. Like if they outlawed alcohol from bars. That would be really weird.

[Knightley]

Yeah I like P & T too. I have many friends who smoke, no I don't think smoking should be banned, not even in restaurants. I don't have a problem if people smoke in my place, my car, etc. Its never been that big of a deal to me, and as long as people don't blow it on my face directly then I usually don't care. And no I'm not a smoker, since most of my friends are though, I am for the most part just used to it more or less.