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Is Hell Fair?


Ramen666
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Brought up earlier which in my testimony thread before Scott started to debate which is against the rules. Scott said one thing that really pissed me off. He said humans deserve Hell and the bargain is a fair

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I think a great thing for a christian like Scott to think about would be - would he send his own kids to burn in hell for eternity for breaking a few rules he set? Of course his answer would be "no way". He'd never even entertain the thought. Would he sentence them to hell because they didn't bow down and kiss his feet every day and sing praises to him? NO! Would he send his own kids to burn in hell for refusing to believe something he told them? Or would he send his own kids to hell for disowning him as a father? Of course he wouldn't.

 

Would he turn around to his kid and say "You rejected my teachings, you broke my rules, you disowned me, so you chose to go to hell, it's not my fault. In fact heck, I don't even know who you are. Depart from me you wretched evil being. You're not my child....."

 

The child begs and begs for forgiveness. He is on his hands and knees grovelling.....

 

".....Sorry who ever you are, but it's too late to say I'm sorry now. You dug this hole for yourself, now you've got to burn it it.... FOR ETERNITYYYYY! No, that's the rules. There's nothing I can do."

 

and he hurls his kid into the firey pits of hell......

 

......................................................

Give me a break! Scott would never be such a heartless bastard! He's too good for that!

 

So I think we can safely say that Scott would be a much "bigger" individual than God. In fact God would be considered very petty and cruel compared to him. Ruthless in fact. What a great God a guy like Scott would make! He would be showing true Christian character by forgiving unconditionally, unlike God who has strings attached to his forgiveness.

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Maybe Scott is a meglomanic beast like that what he worships. Christians cetainly have commited some of the foulest of acts for thier god.

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Well, while I am a Christian and that will never change, I have been doing alot of thinking about the Hell idea. We can have opinions of what hell is, but I don't think we can honestly say for sure that hell is a place of literal fiery punishment. Maybe fire is symbolic. I'm not stating this as a fact, but it is possible. Fire is known to everyone on the planet, so the authors of the Bible may have used this word to get the message across that those who go to hell will be in torment. I have a question. I think I've asked this before and either you didn't answer me or I just don't remember what you said. Let's say the "fires" of hell are symbolic for unquenchable pain and suffering. Maybe the pain and suffering is that we are seperated from God. So, if the "fire" is symbolic for experiencing no joy, peace, love etc, then is hell fair? Again, if the fire is symbolic for what I've mentioned, then why would God accept someone in the afterlife who rejected Him in this life?

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Well, while I am a Christian and that will never change, I have been doing alot of thinking about the Hell idea. We can have opinions of what hell is, but I don't think we can honestly say for sure that hell is a place of literal fiery punishment. Maybe fire is symbolic. I'm not stating this as a fact, but it is possible. Fire is known to everyone on the planet, so the authors of the Bible may have used this word to get the message across that those who go to hell will be in torment. I have a question. I think I've asked this before and either you didn't answer me or I just don't remember what you said. Let's say the "fires" of hell are symbolic for unquenchable pain and suffering. Maybe the pain and suffering is that we are seperated from God. So, if the "fire" is symbolic for experiencing no joy, peace, love etc, then is hell fair? Again, if the fire is symbolic for what I've mentioned, then why would God accept someone in the afterlife who rejected Him in this life?

What if heaven is understanding that God is in us here? "The kingdom of Heaven is in you." Maybe you need to study more what Jesus said and leave the rest alone. They were just people that were trying to understand what Jesus said in light of their own religion. Then add to that the intent of the people that put these writings together.

 

Before you invest your entire life in what other people said about God, go and read everything you can find about the purpose of a myth; about the culture that these people lived in; the order the books of the bible were writen in and then come to a well informed decision. Don't just worship blindly.

 

You are following an institutionalized relgion...the same kind that Jesus was trying so hard to do away with!

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I do study for myself. Although it's foolish to just make up your own opinions of the Bible. You may not understand something, that you would have understood if you went to ask someone like a Pastor for help. Anyway, the Bible forbids it. And you didn't answer my question.

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Well, I don't know Scott...you pose quite the theologic stumper there...

 

How about this?

 

God is supposedly omnipresent. As such, there can be no place god is not. So your supposition that there can be a place, any place (including hell), that we can be separated from god is, by the very definition of god, impossible.

 

Care to try again?

 

mwc

 

P.S. You can also try answering some of my messages that I've sent your way too. You know, just a little common courtesy.

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And what does a pastor have that I don't, other than an investment (often monitary) in keeping as many people believing as possible?

 

Clarificaton: What are you claiming that the Bible forbids, in this case?

 

And as for "making up your own opinions," well, if it sounds like a duck...

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I do study for myself. Although it's foolish to just make up your own opinions of the Bible. You may not understand something, that you would have understood if you went to ask someone like a Pastor for help. Anyway, the Bible forbids it. And you didn't answer my question.

Sorry...I thought I did answer it. Yes, I believe hell is living your life with all your energy focused on finding yourself in things, or forms. When we get a new car, we feel great for awhile but soon the desire to feel good about ourselves surfaces again, so we go out and get something else. We don't need to go out in the world of form to find who we are. We are already divine, IMO. The Formless (or God) is in us. That is why our ego can never be satisfied because it looks to the world of forms to make us happy. That sense of awe, wonder, joy and love comes from somewhere else. It doesn't need to named, because that again makes it a form. So, when you turn away from who you really are (formless) you will try to find yourself in forms. This is hell because it is being separate from who you really are. It has never left you, but you are not aware of it. Heaven is just the opposite.

 

I could speak about this formlessness from a couple of different religions, but I will choose Christianity. What was it that Jesus said..."see the lily how it grows, it toils not..." It doesn't worry about what tomorrow will bring, it is happy just being in the moment. It doesn't look for something else to fulfill it. That is the "Kingdom of Heaven" Jesus spoke of. If you are content understanding that your nature is one of joy and love, why would you need to 'find yourself' in something that will just fade away? Why do you need to look to someone else to provide you with joy and love. "Give and you will receive." "The one who has more, more will be given. To the one without, all will be taken away." The more love a person recognizes in themselves and shares freely, the more will be given to them. The one that thinks they have to find it elsewhere and sees themselves as not having any, they don't give any love so they never receive any in return. All is taken away. Realize that these teachings are applicable to living now...not after death.

 

I hope that answers your question a little more. Also, it is very foolish to ask someone like a pastor about questions you have in the bible because they are going to tell you what the church has told them. You need an unbiased opinion or a contradicting opinion in order to form your own opinion.

 

Try this site here first: About the Historical Jesus

 

You cannot study the history of the bible by looking at the bible alone. You need outside sources. If not, that is like asking Stalin what he thinks about Communism. :twitch:

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Well, I don't know Scott...you pose quite the theologic stumper there...

 

How about this?

 

God is supposedly omnipresent. As such, there can be no place god is not. So your supposition that there can be a place, any place (including hell), that we can be separated from god is, by the very definition of god, impossible.

 

Care to try again?

 

mwc

 

P.S. You can also try answering some of my messages that I've sent your way too. You know, just a little common courtesy.

 

It's possibe that God has created a place in the universe where He chooses not to God. God is light, and one of the names the Bible uses for hell is "outer darkness". Since it's dark, and God is light, He must not be there. It's like in the Tribulation period when the omnipresent Holy Spirit will be removed and let evil run rampant. It's also possible that in a way God's presence will be in hell, but in a horrible way. For instance, in the story about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man went to hell, but he could still, to some extent, see the kingdom of God. However, there was a great chasm between them. Perhaps this is the torment of hell. Being able to see God's kingdom from a far distance, and knowing that this is a place we will never ever be able to reach.

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I do study for myself. Although it's foolish to just make up your own opinions of the Bible. You may not understand something, that you would have understood if you went to ask someone like a Pastor for help. Anyway, the Bible forbids it. And you didn't answer my question.

 

 

Scott what a hypocrit you are creating your own opnion about the Babble saying hell is a metaphor now. Man I have heard Christians say things before but you are the worst. None of the Bible is true. This is stupid to believe this crap I am hearing from you Youu are making hate Christianity more than I did before because of you and people like you. People like you are just twisting the Bible around. I am without God (so it's hell) Hell may not be that bad of a place after all. Forget what the Bible said is what you are basically doing.

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It's possibe that God has created a place in the universe where He chooses not to God. God is light, and one of the names the Bible uses for hell is "outer darkness". Since it's dark, and God is light, He must not be there. It's like in the Tribulation period when the omnipresent Holy Spirit will be removed and let evil run rampant. It's also possible that in a way God's presence will be in hell, but in a horrible way. For instance, in the story about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man went to hell, but he could still, to some extent, see the kingdom of God. However, there was a great chasm between them. Perhaps this is the torment of hell. Being able to see God's kingdom from a far distance, and knowing that this is a place we will never ever be able to reach.

It's apparent that you're reaching for answers now.

 

By the very definition of the word omnipresent and having it be an attribute of god your answer fails. You're trying to redefine one or the other (maybe both) and that's intellectually dishonest. God is either everywhere or he's not. It's as simple as that. If he's not, then he's not omnipresent. If he's not omnipresent then he's not god as that is a trait that god must possess to be god.

 

The comparison to light is nice and all but just that, a comparison. God is not light. He is not made up of photons. If he were we'd all be blind since he's supposedly everywhere and no one can look directly at god (and so on...you should know this). God is also not a shepherd. We're not sheep and so forth. Need I continue?

 

Also, the HS has never been omnipresent. I'm not sure where you even got that idea. It's not biblical. Jesus was baptized and received the HS in the form of a dove. The sign of the spirit is a dove, talking in tongues and so on. The fact that I am ex-c means the spirit does not dwell within me. The spirit is not omnipresent. It never has been and never will be. Technically, it fails as god as it does not contain the omnipresent aspect of the god deity. It also is not omniscient which is another trait the god deity must possess (jesus also does not possess these two traits by the way).

 

The story of the rich man and Lazarus. They did not go to hell. They went to Hades. You are seeing this story through tainted eyes. Where does the beggar go? Heaven? The "kingdom of god" according to you? Nope, he goes to the "bosom of Abraham." Where is that? Well, it's not heaven. Think of it as the "good part of hell" even though that's a misnomer. No one went to heaven back then. Only Elijah really. So in this parable both of these guys went to Hades. One went to the bad part and the other to the good part (but it's not really Hades but a modified version of Sheol that I won't go into). The bad part is sort of like the hell you know and the good part is like the Garden of Eden. There was a literal chasm that separated them so people could get across. This is why they could talk to one another (more likely yelled). So don't delude yourself into thinking this guy was looking up from your version of hell into your version of heaven. It was nothing of the sort (make it makes a nifty Sunday school story, eh?). Top all this off with pretty much everything in the bible that came before about 800BCE is folklore and legend (including the people) and all the characters in that story are just that...characters in a story.

 

mwc

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Ramen, it's not my job to make you "like" Christianity. Maybe you should actually read what I'm saying. If you did, you would see that I'm not twisting the Bible around. Hell is a real place. I am studying to find out which doctrine of Hell is true {literel fire or not, the soul being simply destroyed when it enters Hell, etc.}

 

Mwc, I agree with some of what you said. Where Lazarus went was not Heaven, but it was a good place. Although, I do believe Hades is the same as Hell. The Holy Spirit is God, so He must be omnipresent. It doesn't mean He has to live in you. I also believe God is present everywhere in the universe except Hell. It is hard to understand how this is possible. It's also hard to understand how One God can be in Three Persons. But He is.

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Well, while I am a Christian and that will never change,

:grin::grin: make sure you save your saying this somewhere! It'll be fun for you to look at it later. :grin::grin:

 

Fire is known to everyone on the planet, so the authors of the Bible may have used this word to get the message across that those who go to hell will be in torment.

Oh Scott... you are so close to becoming a liberal Christian... and you don't even know it yet! Keep thinking, it'll get you saved! Hint: the writers of the Bible were expressing their thoughts.... :grin:

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Hell is a real place. I am studying to find out which doctrine of Hell is true {literel fire or not, the soul being simply destroyed when it enters Hell, etc.}

 

I also believe God is present everywhere in the universe except Hell. It is hard to understand how this is possible. It's also hard to understand how One God can be in Three Persons. But He is.

 

 

Can you say with absolute certainty that Hell is a real place? If so how do you know? Can you please list for us all of the references you are educating yourself on about this place? You Christians crack me up as you try to sound all educated about the buybull. Are you aware first off that the first part of your Buybull there is no hell, nor does any Jew believe in such a place. During the day's of Moses the pagan Egyptians had a hell called the underworld, Jews viewed hell as a pagan place with pagan gods. Greeks also had a fiery place called Hades. Hell is yet another in an extremely long list of pagan aspects of the most recent blood cult called Christianity.

 

Here's a brain teaser for you Scott, If God is separate from hell, and Jesus Christ is "god', was hell no longer hell when he went there for 3 days? :scratch:

 

If god is infinite then being 3 is really kinda pointless, Yes? Do the 3 of him convene when they have a disagreement? Who gets final say? :Hmm:

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It's also hard to understand how One God can be in Three Persons. But He is.

It's not hard to understand, it's impossible to understand. You cannot say "but he is", you have zero evidence of that. The best you can say is that some theologians read it in certain verses with that sort of understanding, but not all do. That Scott is fact, not your statement.

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Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

Japedo, Jesus was God and Man. He took the punishment for us, so yes, it is possible that He could have been there at one time in history.

 

Japedo and Antlerman, what you don't seem to understand is the fact that just because you can't understand something, doesn't mean it's not true. Do I understand everything the Bible teaches? No. But I know it's true.

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If I still believed in hell, I'd prefer to see it as the Jews saw it. The grave.

 

The fact that I am ex-c means the spirit does not dwell within me.

I can still speak in tongues so it must be still dwelling in me! :lmao:

 

 

 

 

Well, while I am a Christian and that will never change,

:grin::grin: make sure you save your saying this somewhere! It'll be fun for you to look at it later. :grin::grin:

I can still remember well the day when I was 16 years old when I said to a good adult friend of mine "I will never doubt God again". He assured me I would. For the next 15 years or so I was proud to say he was wrong. But I guess he was right all along. ;)

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But I know it's true.

Okay so you believe in the bible. So do you think your belief is fact or opinion?

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Eveyone take this as a grain of salt but I was thinking why is the Torah wrong to Christians?

 

 

Speaking of religion and the Babble technically if one was righ and I had to say if one was closer to the truth. The Torah wouldn't technically be more correct. The New Testament was added to the original thing. Why The Babble has been modified and tampered and thus The Babble and Christianity is born.

 

I don't believe in either but what makes Christianity right? THEY ADDED TO THE JEWISH TEXT! Why on Earth wouls someone believe in it when the modifeid someone elses belief system. Thats like get a whole bunch of people and add to the Quaran. The Quaran would be more original and more correct not what people added.

 

I didn't start thinking about this till today but if the authenticity of the events The Torah would be more correct than The Bible.

 

-NOTE I AM PLAYING AS IF ONE WAS TRUE AND ONE WAS FALSE I BELIEVE NEITHER IS TRUE HOWEVER SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE why did Christians add to the Torah?-

 

If any one understands what I am getting at but please post

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Why on Earth wouls someone believe in it when the modifeid someone elses belief system.

I find it funny that protestants make this same exact accusation to the book of mormon.

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Japedo and Antlerman, what you don't seem to understand is the fact that just because you can't understand something, doesn't mean it's not true.

 

Wow. That is so incredibly stupid. :twitch:

 

If you can't understand something, something incredible (like the supernatural claims of the bible), isn't it more likely to be bullshit if there's no proof?

 

I mean, I don't really understand the theory of Relativity, but the fact that atomic fusion works pretty much proves it's true. It has evidence; evidence that can be observed, tested, and duplicated. Relativity is true, therefore.

 

Hell is a story, a legend - a myth. There is no proof of anything real about it. :shrug:

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Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

Japedo, Jesus was God and Man. He took the punishment for us, so yes, it is possible that He could have been there at one time in history.

 

Japedo and Antlerman, what you don't seem to understand is the fact that just because you can't understand something, doesn't mean it's not true. Do I understand everything the Bible teaches? No. But I know it's true.

 

How can you say for certain that Hell is real if you have zero proof it exists? What's your take on the pagan hells (underworld, Hades)? Do you think they are legitimate and if not how do you arrive at that conclusion?

 

You said in earlier comments that a figurative hell would be to be separated from god, if god was in hell how could he be separated from it? To be fully god and fully man would be to the same degree as being fully human and fully tree it's bullshit. Another thing if a sungod took punishment for all mankind, why does sin still exist?

 

 

:twitch: Scott, What you don't seem to understand is the fact that just because you believe in fairytales doesn't mean they are true. How can the buybull be true of it's completely contradictory in just about every aspect, story or rule? You want to believe without proof or facts that's your prerogative, don't tell the rest of us to put our collective heads in the sand and blindly accept your dogma just because, and please don't make statements you can't back up. I'm still waiting to hear how it is your doing your study on hell, with what information or evidence?

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Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

I give up...I cannot reason with a person who has convinced himself I am evil.

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In my opinion, hell is a state of mind. If you do something you know is wrong and regret it, that is hell. In the afterlife, this is magnified because there is no physical mind to rationalize away feelings of guilt. But God is in hell. Those who are in hell just don't realize it. Nobody is condemned to hell by anyone other than themselves, and anyone can leave when they choose to.

 

Think about it. If you were God, would you send someone to a place they didn't want to be? Where they were tormented day and night? Would God allow Satan to exist? The answer to all those questions is, of course, no. If it were any other way, there's no way God could be God.

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