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Goodbye Jesus

Is Hell Fair?


Ramen666

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This whole Hell thing was one of the things that got me questioning the whole of what I believed. I just couldn't deal with the idea that, for simple unbelief, someone would spend eternity there. IMO, even Hitler doesn't deserve to be punised FOREVER! I mean, ,would anyone lock their child up for the rest of their lives for stealing candy at the supermarket? It's ridiculous.

 

And if God wanted us to "choose"Him b/c we love him (which, btw, is not in Scriptures), how is dangling our feet over Hell getting us to make a choice out of love? That's like Al Quaida's recent threat to the US: "Convert, or else!" And fear never results in true conversion, anyway. God says "Believe in Jesus, or you'll be barbecued forever" and we say "Well, I'll try to believe JUST IN CASE". So we're still screwed because we can't really believe...

 

Yes, Hell is in fact pagan. Actually, the Tentmakers site has some very interesting facts on hell, its origins, etc. I think almost every instance of the word "hell" in the Bible is mistranslated. There are four words we derive it from: Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, and Tartarus. I'm not at a point where I've 100% discounted Christianity, and if it IS true, I'm pretty much convinced that salvation would be universal. And I'm finding that not ONLY is Hell a pagan concept, but that many concepts in Christianity appear to be regurgitated pagan concepts from long before Christ. Interesting, ain't it?

 

All that being said, if we have to go through this much EFFORT to get accurate translations of the Bible, why would a supreme being bother?! Sure humans could screw it up in translation, I can believe that: so why use a book to communicate with us? And if a book, why should it all be so mystical? Wouldn't everything be unified? Ah the questions I've been asking myself...

 

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Man this thread got long but Scott was just an ass and didn't answer anything for me. So let's re try this again.

 

 

Scott or any other Christians on this board:

 

 

IS HELL A FAIR PUNISHMENT? (for just not believing in something)

 

EXAMPLE

 

Believe and follow in a certain belief your punishment suffering for all eternity.

 

( Sounds like Nazi's.)

 

THE ANTI-CHRIST BETTER THAN JESUS?

 

As I said he is too reach billions, Jesus did only at least 1,000 +-200 during his lifetime. The anti-christ must be convincing then.

 

 

OTHER THINGS WORTH MENTIONING FOR DEBATE: The Bible, let's look at it as a hitorical document. Is it a first hand source or a second hand source?

 

It can't be first because Paul never saw Jesus. So it is second. The Bible was also written long time apart. Their is no first hand sources of Jesus. Let's say any diares,letters anything about Jesus being God other than the Bible. Why is there no documents? Why is there no other traces? Why are Christians the only one to say Jesus was God.

 

Quaran is actually a first hand source (Even if it is false) looking at it as a historcial book. COME ON AT LEAST MOHAMMAD WROTE IT. Jesus didn't even write the Bible. God "inspired" it. That is pretty stupid, he only Inspired is they key word not WROTE. God did not write the Bible. I find that ironic. The vary men he cursed (all humans) according to Scott. Wrote the Bible for God. The vary corrupt men on this Earth wrote the Bible. The sinners who would eventually deby God.

 

What if Jesus was the anti-Christ Scott? Think about God said never worship anyone except him.

BAM Jesus comes in the picture. Jesus also makes it to the new creation THE BIBLE . Christians worship him and whatnot. Jews talk about the messiah, they believe in God. Just not Jesus.

 

So let me get this straight they believe in God but not Jesus so they are going to hell then? How messed of a system is that when Christians added THE NEW TESTAMENT to their book. So Jews are going to hell then? Pretty sick messed up God if you ask me.

 

#1. Hell is fair. Let's say there's no fire in hell. All hell is is a place that is complete seperation from God. Let's also say seperation from God means no joy, no peace, no love, or anything like that. Let's say that is the actual hell of the Bible. If this is the case, and we reject Him all of our lives, why should He accept us in the afterlife?

 

#2. More people will follow the Antichrist because he represents everything the flesh of man wants; lawlessness and rebellion against God, which is sin. That's why he is called "the man of sin".

 

#3. Paul did see Jesus. He may not have been one of the twelve that followed Him while He was on earth, but Jesus did appear to him.

 

Jesus could not have been the Antichrist for a few reasons. 1. We was the Christ.

2. His way is hard for the flesh to follow.

3. Jesus cast out demons, and

Satan cannot cast out Satan.

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With all this talk about the Rapture and the Antichrist, I think it would bode well, Scott, for you to check out preterism... It sounds as if you go to a church that teaches dispensationalism and you've gotten the whole beast with seven heads whore on the waters explanation..interestingly, those seven headed beasts have some interesting mythological origins, too...

 

I have read Revelation, and I gotta say, I've no real clue how anyone could draw anything conclusive from it, let alone this whole rapture scenario we have going on today....

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#1. Hell is fair. Let's say there's no fire in hell. All hell is is a place that is complete seperation from God. Let's also say seperation from God means no joy, no peace, no love, or anything like that. Let's say that is the actual hell of the Bible. If this is the case, and we reject Him all of our lives, why should He accept us in the afterlife?

 

#2. More people will follow the Antichrist because he represents everything the flesh of man wants; lawlessness and rebellion against God, which is sin. That's why he is called "the man of sin".

 

#3. Paul did see Jesus. He may not have been one of the twelve that followed Him while He was on earth, but Jesus did appear to him.

 

Jesus could not have been the Antichrist for a few reasons. 1. We was the Christ.

2. His way is hard for the flesh to follow.

3. Jesus cast out demons, and

Satan cannot cast out Satan.

 

1. Ok let's say thats right. I am down with separation of God. However that's the Bible says so you basically don't want to believe in the "firey hell"

 

2. Thus he is better than Jesus...he can reach more...Jesus can't so that means Jesus was weak.

 

3. Paul saw him in a vision. I can have a dream about Santa and write a book based on Santas inspiration. It is the same thing. Paul never saw Jesus in real life at all. A vision doesn't mean you a meet a person. For every person I met in a dream wow it would be a lot but you don't meet people in visions thus he never saw him in real life.

 

Other topics replys"

 

1.True Jesus claimed to be " Christ" isn't the antichrist suppose to do the same thing. Perform miracles ect..

 

2. I don't get what you are saying, Jesus is hard to follow because he is to illogical I don't know you mean.

 

3. Good old Satan, what if all along Satan was the good guy? What if in fact Jesus was the controler.I mean this is a good theory if the Bible was true. Jesus is the deciever and not Satan. Jesus is suppose to be the only way? But I thought God was? Why do Christians worship a man with flesh just like any other person. It strikes me as an odd concept. Jesus was in fact flesh and bone. For the heck of it I will play as if Jesus was a real person. ( He may in fact of been but not God). Jesus is in fact in other religious texts as a Prophet and that is all. A good one but a prophet. Jesus was a prophet in the Bible spreading the word of God only thing different is he claims he is God in the Bible. Difference is there may be truth in there. Just when the Bible came out he was blown way out of proportion just like the rest of the story. The religion just takes from others and claims to be there own and whatnot Jesus= God is born. Remember Jesus was a man, all man sin. God can't sin but Jesus has a man's mind and body.( He probably got boners looking at woman). Jesus is flesh and bone just like you preaching to us.

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#1. Hell is fair. Let's say there's no fire in hell. All hell is is a place that is complete seperation from God. Let's also say seperation from God means no joy, no peace, no love, or anything like that. Let's say that is the actual hell of the Bible. If this is the case, and we reject Him all of our lives, why should He accept us in the afterlife?

Because this is petty and childish. So petty and childish I can't believe you keep mentioning like it is a mature and loving thing to do. A human life is roughly 70-80 years. The life of YHWH is roughly forever if my memory is working correctly. Since you like the parent/child analogies I'll use one here. If a child were to ignore their parent for an hour should that parent refuse that child for the remainder of their life? Of course not. That would be petty and childish. The parent is the one that has to accept the shortcomings, the immature actions, of the child. YHWH is incapable of doing so and his infinite punishment for our finite violations is evidence of this.

 

Don't forget that he is supposed to be just and merciful. Where is the mercy in all of this? The reason that people were beheaded is to end their suffering quickly. Justice with mercy. Endless punishment is simply cruel and we evil humans understand this. Throw us into this "hell" this place of punishment is that is what we deserve to satisfy justice but do not claim to be a merciful god when the punishment endures forever with no chance of parole. If we were simply to "wink" out of existance after a time then, like the beheadings, this could be considered justice tempered with mercy. Likewise if we were considered for parole after a time. However since neither option is available it is simply punishment for punishment's sake. This is not justice nor is it merciful. This is petty vindictiveness.

 

#2. More people will follow the Antichrist because he represents everything the flesh of man wants; lawlessness and rebellion against God, which is sin. That's why he is called "the man of sin".

World peace is sinful? How so?

 

#3. Paul did see Jesus. He may not have been one of the twelve that followed Him while He was on earth, but Jesus did appear to him.

Paul saw a "vision" of what he believed to be jesus.

 

Jesus could not have been the Antichrist for a few reasons. 1. We was the Christ.

I am the christ. How hard is it for anyone to say that?

 

However, you seem to miss an important point (and will likely miss it when I make it). The evil old imposter that you believe is coming will do something that you think is a major no-no. Can you recall what that might be? That thing is he will claim to be the one and only true God and people will believe him. He will not show up and say "Hi. I am the anti-god. You know. Pure evil." So what did jesus, in fact, do? He showed up and (in not so many words...but this is in your belief system today) said "Hi. I am God. I am not evil, but quite the opposite. I am really loving. So loving I will send you to a place to endless punishment if you don't love me." So the best liar ever to come into being would have no problem posing as a being of light and pulling off the ultimate fraud now would he? I don't think so.

 

2. His way is hard for the flesh to follow.

If by contradictory to our nature then I agree. Why would we be made one way and then expected to act another? It makes no sense at all. Even the god of the OT understood this and never expected such behavior from us. I gave you examples where Paul tampered with words from Moses (well, they were technically YHWH's words) and another quote from YHWH himself to Cain where he gives Cain the extremely simple one sentence instruction on how to overcome sin. You ignored both of my comments. (I assume this is because it contradicted your dogma but my words were straight out of the bible so it's not me you have a problem with...keep that in mind.) In addition I could use the OT to give you numerous cases where the law is praised for bringing us closer to YHWH. Paul is the one who curses the flesh. Paul is the one who hates himself. Take this issue up with Paul.

 

3. Jesus cast out demons, and Satan cannot cast out Satan.

Yeah. Jesus really used "perfect" logic with this argument. Sorry but this is the lamest thing I've ever heard. So Satan can't use "shills?" He can't command a demon cohort into a person and then walk over and "cast" that same demon back out so that us poor humans are fooled into thinking a "good" angel or even jesus/god did it? That reasoning just doesn't wash. Especially in light of the mighy schemes we're led to believe Satan is cooking up all the time and with this whole "end times" thing where he misleads the whole world. He can pull this off but he can't use a shill to cast himself out so to speak? This is con-artistry 101 stuff (I've seen the hidden camera stuff on 20/20 and Dateline and whatnot. Don't tell me this is another type of trick we humans can do that the supernatural beings can't).

 

mwc

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Sithprincess - I have studied a little of preterism. I don't really agree with it.

 

Ramen

 

1. There may very well be a fiery hell. No matter what hell is, Christ came to save us from it.

 

2. Jesus is not weak. It is our choice to go with or against Christ. The Antichrist brings sin, Jesus Christ brings righteousness. In the end, Jesus will overthrow the Antichrist. Which side do you want to be on?

 

3. You are confusing a dream with a vision. There is a difference. You don't dream when you're awake.

 

4. Yes, the Antichrist will do the same thing.

 

5. He is hard to follow because our sinful desires goes against His teachings. He came to make us more like Himself so we can have an inheritance in the kingdom of God.

 

6. Jesus is God. Lucifer, a holy, perfect angel, defied Him and was kicked out of heaven.

 

Mwc

 

1. Well, I think it's pretty childish to think we can do whatever we want here, then expect to go to heaven later. And I said this before, only those who have trusted in Jesus Christ alone as their Lord and Savior and have repented of their sins are made children of God.

 

How do you know people will want to ask forgiveness when they're in hell? I don't think they will. After a time, your attitude will become fixed so that all you can do is defy God. How do you know God wouldn't offer you salvation when you're in hell, but because your attitude is fixed, you would deny it and continue in defiance?

 

2. Jesus Christ will create world peace for 1,000 years and then forever. So no, world peace is not sinful. It is sinful, however, that in your quest for peace, you kill those who are opposed. Satan will not bring true peace. He will bring a false peace with a plan to destroy the human race.

 

3. Yes, Paul had a vision of Jesus. There's no reason to believe it wasn't Jesus. It's not possible he could have just cooked this up in his own mind. He didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah, and He didn't think He was. He mercilessly percecuted Christians.

 

4. How about "Hi, I'm God. I am so loving that I came down from heaven, to this sinful earth, to die a horrible death for your sins and ressurect in three days, so that you don't have to go to hell, but can live in heaven with Me, forever."

 

By the way, Satan has no problem showing up as a being of light anyway.

 

5. We were not "made" this way. We became this way because of our selfishness. Jesus wants to change us to be like Him so we can spend forever with Him and escape hell.

 

6. If Satan allowed a demon to possess someone, then cast it out, it wouldn't be of any service to him at all. His plan is to destroy man kind. A way he does this is through possession. It would gain him nothing and would bring him no glory otherwise.

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Yoohoo, JS,

 

I am still waiting for those scriptures that you promised.

 

In any case, it would immaterial what Jesus said about Hell, since the you would first have to prove to us that Jesus was a valid prophet and the prophecied messiah from Yahweh.

 

Hell is one of the pagan ideas which the NT borrowed from other religion. It is certainly not a Jewish Concept nor is there any foundation in the Jewish Scriptures.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?act=...st&p=218819

 

I hope you are aware of my challenge I made here

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?act=...st&p=218253

 

Will you take up the challenge?

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Skeptic, you and everyone else can call Scott if you'd like. That's still my name.

 

If you'd like to discuss whether or not Jesus is the Christ, I would be glad to discuss it with you in another thread.

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1. Well, I think it's pretty childish to think we can do whatever we want here, then expect to go to heaven later. And I said this before, only those who have trusted in Jesus Christ alone as their Lord and Savior and have repented of their sins are made children of God.

Perhaps, but by comparison to YHWH we are children...far less than children really. The parent is supposed to be the mature one in the relationship. If the child, the infant even, cannot hold up their end of their bargain is that not to be expected? Sometimes they can but sometimes they cannot. That is simply the nature of a child. The problem is, in this analogy, a human child is reared to grow up, leave home, become a mature adult and raise children of their own. A xian is reared to return home, be a perpetual child to YHWH and forever immature.

 

It's almost a return to the womb in many ways and at the same time people are expected to become mature individuals, nearly on par with YHWH, able to accept responsibility for an eternity of punishment when they have no true comprehension of what eternity, hell (and all it entails), all the "secrets" that lie beyond our understanding and beyond our existance.

 

In addition to all that I have to ask what's childish about wanting to see your father? What's childish about asking questions before entering into an eternal contract?

 

How do you know people will want to ask forgiveness when they're in hell? I don't think they will. After a time, your attitude will become fixed so that all you can do is defy God. How do you know God wouldn't offer you salvation when you're in hell, but because your attitude is fixed, you would deny it and continue in defiance?

First of all, why would anyone need to ask for forgiveness once they are in hell? If you go to prison you don't need to constantly ask to be let out. You have a set time and, possibly, chances for parole. Once the time is up you are done and are let out. Now, of course, YHWH would know if you've learned your lesson and simply let you out once that time, if ever, had come. Simple.

 

As for your hypothesis, well, isn't that nothing more than wishful thinking? At least what I said can be supported in part by your favorite parable of Lazarus and the rich man. He learned a lesson while he suffered. He showed concern for himself and then he showed concern for others. It is possible.

 

2. Jesus Christ will create world peace for 1,000 years and then forever. So no, world peace is not sinful. It is sinful, however, that in your quest for peace, you kill those who are opposed. Satan will not bring true peace. He will bring a false peace with a plan to destroy the human race.

The very first action of jesus is to come down and smite all those who oppose him with a sword that comes out of his mouth. All this to achieve his world peace. The next step in his plan is to toss those who are against him into a lake of fire. Who really destroys the bulk of the human race for not worshipping him?

 

3. Yes, Paul had a vision of Jesus. There's no reason to believe it wasn't Jesus. It's not possible he could have just cooked this up in his own mind. He didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah, and He didn't think He was. He mercilessly percecuted Christians.

There is a type of epilepsy where people have religious visions. It is very possible that Paul cooked this all up in his mind. Barring that I don't know if you've ever read a book, watched television or seen a movie but far fetched and fascinating, albeit made up, stories occur all the time. I killed 2,323 people today. They looked at me funny. Then, I looked at me funny and I stopped. Now I am one of the people that look at me funny. This is my testimony and it is true. You won't see it in any news reports though. I'm not sure why. It is quite easy to write things like this. What makes Paul any more credible than me?

 

4. How about "Hi, I'm God. I am so loving that I came down from heaven, to this sinful earth, to die a horrible death for your sins and ressurect in three days, so that you don't have to go to hell, but can live in heaven with Me, forever."

 

By the way, Satan has no problem showing up as a being of light anyway.

Exactly. How about it? Now prove one version over the other conclusively. You have some text and I have the same text. We can both make stories using that text that can work. Since that can occur neither is conclusive. However, your final statement does show that my version is in the realm of possibility.

 

Show me how jesus simply wasn't Satan in disguise. Show me how he didn't want to trick the world away from the one true god that is YHWH. The Jews didn't fall for his deception so he turned to Paul and the Gentiles. They didn't know the scriptures and he appealed to their pagan ways and the xianity that you know and love was born. This is why the Jews, to this very day, reject the xian pagan concepts. They see through Satan and his trickery. YHWH sent Satan, to test his chosen people, and they passed. However, he succeeded in decieving 1/3 of the rest of the planet. Will our fate be akin to another flood for this transgression? How close to reality is the NT? Is it simply part of the ruse or a real revelation? So far it's proven to be a hoax. Those Jews are pretty good at avoiding Satan's tests anymore.

 

5. We were not "made" this way. We became this way because of our selfishness. Jesus wants to change us to be like Him so we can spend forever with Him and escape hell.

Read the bible. Start at the beginning, which are not Paul's letters, and find out you're mistaken. Adam and Eve did the fruit thing. They were tossed. No mention of sin but mention of not getting the tree of life. Meaning. Humans were going to die from the start unless they ate from that particular tree. Okay, so what is they very first sin in the bible? Cain killing Able. I gave you the reference. Look it up. Read it. It is right there in black and white. Prior to this murder YHWH tells Cain how to avoid sin. Not that he was sin. Not that he would become sin. This is not because of selfishness. It is simply doing good is not sin and doing bad is sin. That's all there is to what sin is.

 

YHWH then punishes Cain for murder and it's not hell. It's separation from the group. You could call this a metaphor for hell if you like but it's not hell proper. You can see how through midrash they could revamp all this into a hell that we might recognize but this would be an evolution of an idea. We can simply apply the same bit of wordplay and come up with our own idea of hell (and people do which is why the number of people that believe in a literal hell is falling). Even as a metaphor hell isn't that bad. Separation from the group but eventually there's others around and cities and familes and the world eventually springs up. What happens to the Garden which is the metaphor for Heaven? It's forgotten (destroyed in the flood is the theory). It goes away and hell is all that there is. It's where we all currently reside. So if that is the case then hell will be the place to go since it will be the place that is and heaven, the ideal, will fade away. Don't like that? It's already happened once. Talk to the author of the book.

 

6. If Satan allowed a demon to possess someone, then cast it out, it wouldn't be of any service to him at all. His plan is to destroy man kind. A way he does this is through possession. It would gain him nothing and would bring him no glory otherwise.

It serves a huge purpose and you know it. It serves to demonstrate his power. It shows he can cast out demons. Wow. That's amazing. Demons obey his voice. That impressed quite a few people in the bible (and in extra-biblical documents) so it must have been amazing indeed. Wait. What did I say? That's right. We have extra-biblical evidence that others cast out demons too. They weren't jesus. They didn't have YHWH on their side (or did they?). They have pagan gods on their side (or did jesus?). This would be demons casting out demons or Satan casting out Satan (in your words). So does this glorify the pagan god or does this serve no purpose? Jesus simply tried to dodge the accusation but unlike us they had no problem with henoism back then (unless you were Jewish) and neither did jesus. So jesus did not concern himself with people casting out demons in the names of other gods only with YHWH and his nemesis the devil.

 

Nonetheless, Satan, casting out a shill demon(s) would be a mighty example of his power. This would turn many people to his side and away from the "true" path, which in this case, is the Jewish path of YHWH alone and no pagan triune gods. His deception worked like a charm. A small number of Jews left the path but a huge number of potential Gentiles followed his deception. This has wreaked major havoc on the earth ever since. In addition the pressure on the Jews to convert has been on them ever since. His short term attempt to sway the Jews has turned into a 2000 year full court press. His follow-up, Islam, was equally brilliant but off-topic. Well done Satan. Well done.

 

mwc

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mwc

 

1. To remain in the Lord is to grow spiritually.

 

2. Prison is a little different than hell. I think even if God made them stay in there unless they repented, they would not do it.

 

3. I expected you would say that. Jesus Christ destroys the army of Satan because they have rebelled against God.

 

4. Paul's not the only one who had a miraculous experience with Jesus. The other eleven disciples witnessed His awesome ressurection.

 

5. This may take a while to describe, and this has nothing to do with the original topic, and I think we should get back to the topic. If you want to make a thread about this, I will be glad to discuss it there.

 

6. Adam and Eve commited the first sin by disobeying God.

 

7. No, it does not serve a purpose. Satan wants people to worship him. Why would he have someone on his side cast out demons, when he, the prince of demons, wants to be worshipped?

 

Seriously though, let's get back to the original topic.

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What amazingly well thought replies. Yes, I realize we had wandered a bit from the topic but that's allowed in the Lion's Den (and it was at your initial prompting so I figured you wanted to discuss these items).

 

mwc

 

1. To remain in the Lord is to grow spiritually.

 

Trite.

 

2. Prison is a little different than hell. I think even if God made them stay in there unless they repented, they would not do it.

 

This is close to being on topic so I'm surprised you didn't wish to go into more detail. If you want to go back and revisit this please do so. You might want to consider that a Jewish take on this is that hell is distance from YHWH and over time you allowed to move closer (okay, that's a super "nutshell" version but it should tell you that something is wrong when the base religion and the one that sprang from it can't even agree on the supposed afterlife...the theology to get there...maybe...but the actual "there" is another thing).

 

3. I expected you would say that. Jesus Christ destroys the army of Satan because they have rebelled against God.

 

The reason is irrelevant. It's the raw numbers that matter. If the reason is love and the goal is as many as possible but the head count in heaven is 50 and the count in hell is 50,000,000,000,000 then no matter what reason(s) you can come up with the facts of the matter are that jesus failed and Satan succeeded. Unless, of course, jesus and Satan are one and the same. Then the goal to send people to hell are their universal mission. Jesus came, pretending to be the "saviour" the "christ" when he is also the "anti-christ" the "anti-saviour." He turned people from salvation to damnation. Quite the trick and the numbers pan out. Jesus will send more people to hell than any one thing in all of history and his alter ego Satan/the devil will take the blame. YHWH just sits on his ass since he only cares about the Jews anyhow and has only said so all along. If anyone else wants to worship him then he's all for it, and will accept them, but he's not forcing anyone...until his earthly human Messiah shows up and does all that Jeremiah 31 stuff.

 

4. Paul's not the only one who had a miraculous experience with Jesus. The other eleven disciples witnessed His awesome ressurection.

 

Paul's the only one who had "visions" and only visions.

 

5. This may take a while to describe, and this has nothing to do with the original topic, and I think we should get back to the topic. If you want to make a thread about this, I will be glad to discuss it there.

 

I have a feeling that if I started the topic it would peter out to one liners but I will consider it.

 

6. Adam and Eve commited the first sin by disobeying God.

 

Simply not true and the bible will back me as I have already pointed out. If you choose to believe Paul over YHWH, your supposed god, I guess that is your mistake to make.

 

7. No, it does not serve a purpose. Satan wants people to worship him. Why would he have someone on his side cast out demons, when he, the prince of demons, wants to be worshipped?

 

It does serve a purpose otherwise con-men would not use shills in their schemes today. It is a very powerful way of decieving people. You do not want to leave something like this to chance. Satan is a manipulator. A trickster. He would trick people by his very nature. Your precious book of Revelation reveals this. He does not force his way into power. He schemes his way into power. He is subtle. He is smooth. He would do exactly what I describe. He would set himself up as the premiere exorsist of the day. The best healer. What better way to get into power? Make people sick then offer the cure. When they don't submit he withholds the cure. When they don't fall on their face and worship him he withholds the cure. When they don't declare him the prophet of god he witholds the cure. When they don't declare him the son of god he withholds the cure. When they don't declare him tri-equal to god he withholds the cure. Finally, when they don't declare him the one and only God and worship him he casts them into the lake of fire.

 

Seriously though, let's get back to the original topic.

 

Hell's not fair.

mwc

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well be a fiery hell. No matter what hell is, Christ came to save us from it.

Wow! Praise God! Hallelujah! The lord is great and merciful!........ oh no... wait, he was the one who created hell in the first place. Well I take back those praises. I wonder if I was to go and dig a big pit with spikes and poisonous snakes at the bottom in the middle of a school playground, then came along and stood in front of it and warned everybody to stay clear of it, then I guess I could be a a savior too!

 

3. Yes, Paul had a vision of Jesus. There's no reason to believe it wasn't Jesus. It's not possible he could have just cooked this up in his own mind. He didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah, and He didn't think He was. He mercilessly percecuted Christians.

He could have also been like a lot of modern day evangelists who saw an opportunity to gain a lot of power and maybe even money. Sounds a bit like Joseph Smith and Ron Hubbard.

 

4. How about "Hi, I'm God. I am so loving that I came down from heaven, to this sinful earth, to die a horrible death for your sins and ressurect in three days, so that you don't have to go to hell, but can live in heaven with Me, forever."

 

That Jesus! What a guy! Oh.... no wait, he was the one who created hell in the first place. Damn, I keep forgetting.

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Wow! Praise God! Hallelujah! The lord is great and merciful!........ oh no... wait, he was the one who created hell in the first place. Well I take back those praises. I wonder if I was to go and dig a big pit with spikes and poisonous snakes at the bottom in the middle of a school playground, then came along and stood in front of it and warned everybody to stay clear of it, then I guess I could be a a savior too![/quote

 

:lmao: That is EXACTLY how it is. Why don't Christians get it? It is belive or die. I create the pit but I will warn you how to avoid it. Why did God have to make hell in the first place? Because humans "disobeyed" God. No let me think HE MADE THE DAMN TALKING SNAKE IN THE FIRST PLACE. He set up the condtions for humans to fail. Wow what a loving God....humans are just a play thing. God doesn't love us at all. It ist like this, burn burn burn in a ring a fire....if you don't love me.

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"Because this is petty and childish. So petty and childish I can't believe you keep mentioning like it is a mature and loving thing to do. A human life is roughly 70-80 years. The life of YHWH is roughly forever if my memory is working correctly. Since you like the parent/child analogies I'll use one here. If a child were to ignore their parent for an hour should that parent refuse that child for the remainder of their life? Of course not. That would be petty and childish. The parent is the one that has to accept the shortcomings, the immature actions, of the child. YHWH is incapable of doing so and his infinite punishment for our finite violations is evidence of this."

 

Yes! MWC, that's exactly what I was trying to get at in my post...you said it much better than I.:)

 

 

Okay, this is off-topic, but it's just one little question; I have to ask - J.S., do you go to a Baptist Church? ...Pentecostal?

 

Just curious..that's all. :)

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My question is. If God doesn't want anyone to go to hell (and I assume he doesn't?) why did he bother making this whole mess in the first place? I just don't understand. Is the handful of people who will get into heaven and freely choose to love God worth the suffering of tens of thousands times more souls in hell? Because surely he knew ahead of time just how many people wouldn't be "choosing" him. Couldn't he come up with a way that was less violent, I mean he is GOD shouldn't he be able to do anything? Like say, make it so that most people would want to love God as opposed to only a few? Wouldn't that be better for EVERYONE? Couldn't he have made it so that people don't die at all so they have all of eternity to choose to be with him so eventually everyone will come to him instead of giving us a finite time span to figure it out and after that there's no turning back?

 

Wtf D:

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Let me explain. God cannot have love without justice. They go hand in hand. God cannot just let people live lawless and rebellious, then let them go to heaven. Because of His love He wants to allow us to go to heaven and be with Him. God created a place of torment for the devil and his angels, not for us. Then, we sinned, and because God must judge sin, hell was going to be our eternal home, along with Satan. Because God is just, hell exists. Because God is love, He made a way out of hell through His Son.

 

Sithprincess, I'm actually looking for a new church.

 

Monsterfeets, God is just, and must punish sin. Yes, He could have made it that most people would choose Him, but that would basically throw freewill out the window. They wouldn't really love Him, they would be like robots. In the beginning, He did make it so that we would be immortal. We would never die. But because sin entered the world, the human body dies.

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In the beginning, He did make it so that we would be immortal. We would never die. But because sin entered the world, the human body dies.
Why was there a tree of life in the garden?
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Dhampir, I think that was there so that they could have eaten it and live forever. Adam and Eve, however, chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After this happened, if they ate of the tree of life, they probably would have lived forever. God won't let that happen until it's time. Then all those who believe in Him will be able to eat of this tree, and live forever.

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Let me explain. God cannot have love without justice. They go hand in hand. God cannot just let people live lawless and rebellious, then let them go to heaven. Because of His love He wants to allow us to go to heaven and be with Him. God created a place of torment for the devil and his angels, not for us. Then, we sinned, and because God must judge sin, hell was going to be our eternal home, along with Satan. Because God is just, hell exists. Because God is love, He made a way out of hell through His Son

 

 

Here is a few questions and statements I also want you to think through:

 

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

 

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

 

Contradictory Justice

 

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

 

All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering

 

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

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Ramen

 

1. The punishment fits the crime. When we sin {yes, even a "little white lie} we are stained with it forever, or unless we are cleansed.

 

2. We can sometimes use analogies using humans as an example of God's justice, but in reality, His ways are simply not our ways, and we need to accept it. There are some things we will not know the answer to until we're on the other side.

 

3. If God just created people He knew would go to heaven, that would not allow Him to grant feewill to His creation. He wouldn't have even given the people a chance, whom He never created.

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1. Listen to yourself Scott that is sickening and absurb, if you just do even a "white lie" you will go to hell for all eternity. That is injustice....that really is how can you be so blinded think thats fair justice.Listen to the exact thing you said. "Even a white lie" will get you in the eternal pressure cooker. That is not justice at all. At least the United States Prision system you get a term for your punishment depending on what you did. It just shows how unforgiving God is. You are just proving my points Scott.

 

2. You devote yourself to religion but not question any of it? God's ways are sure different I can agree with you there for just killing nonbelivers, kiling preganat woman, dashing babies against rocks. All commanded by God. Yeah he sure is different kind of like a psycho and demands love from him. (Figures)

 

3.Scott let's say Babble God is real ( I will play on your side) I was a believer but I have fallen. God already knew I would eventually fall so there is no point. He knows who is going to his kingdom and who is not. So there is no point because it's just a game for God.

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Monsterfeets, God is just, and must punish sin. Yes, He could have made it that most people would choose Him, but that would basically throw freewill out the window. They wouldn't really love Him, they would be like robots. In the beginning, He did make it so that we would be immortal. We would never die. But because sin entered the world, the human body dies.

 

That's dumb. If there were no consequences to not choosing God then people would REALLY be free to choose and not feel THREATENED to choose. Instead we're given the choice between God and Hell. That's um. Not much of a choice there.

 

If the choice were love God and be happy, or don't love God and still be happy, that would be a much more honest and fair method of determining who actually loved God. And, justice is not punishing someone eternally for not believing in something thats purposefully difficult for them to believe in.

 

God created Adam and Eve with the choice to disobey him. But he KNEW that they would disobey him. Sin entering into the world was entirely God's own fault because he had to have known what was going to happen if he put that tree there.

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Scott, I will give you credit. You're a hardcore, unswerving, diehard, rip-snortin', hellfireandbrimstonegoddamnit fundamentalist. Reason, common sense, and evidence means absolutely nothing to you. Your feelings and emotions rule. You are confronted with rational, basic, common sense arguments, real historic evidence, and in reply simply reinterpret the myths you are so convinced are real.

 

So, you've said you plan to be a minister. You're well on the way. You're convinced the great con of all time isn't really a con, so you're lined up well to perpetrate it. No doubt you'll have a following among the gullible, the innocent, and the desperate. Perhaps you'll even make a lot of money at it. Enjoy it, while you can. Because there's no eternal Disneyland on the other side.

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1. The punishment fits the crime. When we sin {yes, even a "little white lie} we are stained with it forever, or unless we are cleansed.

The OT would disagree with you in many places.

 

2. We can sometimes use analogies using humans as an example of God's justice, but in reality, His ways are simply not our ways, and we need to accept it. There are some things we will not know the answer to until we're on the other side.

 

Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

According to the bible we are exactly like the gods when it comes to knowing good and evil. His ways and our ways are the same. Thanks to this tree he planted. The knowledge you claim we can't possess, we do possess, and right now. The only difference between us and the gods is eternal life and supernatural powers.

 

Genesis 11:6

And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

 

A little off-topic I know but it shows the act of a frightened set of gods. They scatter us since we have the ability to do anything we set our minds to do. We are a unified force that must be stopped. The point being the early OT gods were anthropomorphic. Super godmen and nothing more.

 

Back on point. Can we understand the gods of the OT? You bet. They were nothing more than supermen. Can we understand the difference between good and evil? Sure. We define it.

 

3. If God just created people He knew would go to heaven, that would not allow Him to grant feewill to His creation. He wouldn't have even given the people a chance, whom He never created.

Untrue. Free will is not the choice between good and evil but simply the ability to choose. You've been down this path before and you are unable to let go of this tired misconception (I'd say outright lie but I'm not convinced you're simply lying). Can you show me where YHWH says I made you with free will in the bible? Show me all this free will. Where were the Hebrews given a choice to return to Egypt? No, they were his chosen people and that was that. Sure, people can make "choices" in the bible but can't we all? When Israel makes choices against YHWH they are punished, and quite severely, for it. That is not free will. People in Spain or China didn't choose him, during the same time period, and didn't get plagues (or whatever) thrown at them. They had free will. Once you're under the umbrella of YHWH you'd better watch your step because free will is a thing of the past. Then it's choose him or choose punishment. Choose jesus or choose hell.

 

mwc

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Scott, I will give you credit. You're a hardcore, unswerving, diehard, rip-snortin', hellfireandbrimstonegoddamnit fundamentalist. Reason, common sense, and evidence means absolutely nothing to you. Your feelings and emotions rule. You are confronted with rational, basic, common sense arguments, real historic evidence, and in reply simply reinterpret the myths you are so convinced are real.

 

So, you've said you plan to be a minister. You're well on the way. You're convinced the great con of all time isn't really a con, so you're lined up well to perpetrate it. No doubt you'll have a following among the gullible, the innocent, and the desperate. Perhaps you'll even make a lot of money at it. Enjoy it, while you can. Because there's no eternal Disneyland on the other side.

 

Now this is a post I find to be interesting. You say I {and I've heard this said of other Christians too} am unreasonable and lack common sense. Well, this is the way we see you. God gives plenty of evidence {the creation} for His existence, yet, you still do not believe. That is what I call "letting your feelings rule" and being irrational.

 

Yes, I plan to be in the ministry. I am not on earth to deceive the gullible or desperate. I am here to lead people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

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