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Is Hell Fair?


Ramen666
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Biblically. Hell was more of a place that someone went in the Ot that denied God, or abominated Him in some way.

The Jews don't have a theology about hell. It came about later from pagan influences.

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I accept the fact that there are some things about God I simply cannot and do not understand.

Do you accept the fact that you may be wrong about some things you believe? Is that possible, or impossible?

 

Oh, it's possible, aside form the way for Salvation. I mean, a long time ago I was in many debates about the pretribulational rapture, until I figured out, by Bible study, that I was wrong.

You should go back and respond to my larger post to you early. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=214241

 

In addressing the points I raised there, you will see how that your saying you cannot be wrong about Salvation is as meaningless to anyone as me as a 4 year old saying, "I KNOW Santa Clause is real." Could you please make an effort to respond to that post I put a bit of thought into for the sake of this converstaion?

 

 

After you address that other post, please answer how this one belief is not subject to error on your part, when many other Christians have their own take on the path to salvation. On what are you basing this shield of protection around your thoughts? Emotional experience? Infallible interpretation of biblical passages? What specifially?

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You know, you won't get it antlerman. He hasn't given me a straight answer to any of my questions since I started talking to him...the sad thing is that he probably thinks he HAS actually answered my questions.

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You know, you won't get it antlerman. He hasn't given me a straight answer to any of my questions since I started talking to him...the sad thing is that he probably thinks he HAS actually answered my questions.

If he doesn't answer directly, he has answered indirectly it is something he is unable to respond to, therefore the answer is he has no answer for it, and the point was made.

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Are we forming a line? I've asked Scott a few times to address issues I've brought up (at least one at his request...although it was addressed to someone else I did take the time to answer it) and one from awhile back that he was "researching."

 

Hellooooo? Scott? Hellooooo? If Scott starts posting pictures and poetry I'm going to wet myself because Amy Marie is the best spoofer ever! :)

 

mwc

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Hey- what about MY answers? Scott- I'll repost for you so you don't have to jump around the thread to find my questions:

 

Oh, it's possible, aside form the way for Salvation. I mean, a long time ago I was in many debates about the pretribulational rapture, until I figured out, by Bible study, that I was wrong.

 

You don't believe that it's possible that you could be wrong about "the way for salvation"??

 

I mean, hell... BILLIONS of people disagree with you. People who have devoted their entire life to the study of YOUR bible disagree with you. What makes YOU special? How can you authoritatively state that YOUR interpretation of tha Bible is correct and thousands of other interpretations are wrong?

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Piprus, I'm ready to think about anything you have to offer. I'm not ready to say "bullshit" to my faith, thought. I accept the fact that there are some things about God I simply cannot and do not understand. If any of us could figure out everything about God, there would be no faith or trust. I just believe in Jesus and that will not change. It's mainly because I have been through so much that I know He is with me now, although I didn't know it then.

 

P.S I said the 'fire' of hell may be symbolic, not hell itself.

 

I didn't ask if you were ready to say "bullshit" to your faith, Scott, the word I used was "doctrine". Christianity is founded on a doctrine that makes no sense. What evidence do you have that a fabled ancient middle eastern wizard can somehow save you from a fabled eternal punishment in a fabled afterlife? What makes you think that you deserve such a fate anyway? How is it that a god can be so consummately horrible that he would torment us for eternity even for the "sin" of mere skepticism? If, as you no doubt believe, the god created human beings, and knew he was creating them with a "sinful" nature, meaning that from the very beginning the god intended to eternally torment his creations, how is this god worthy of our adoration? How would such a being be anything other than loathesome? You serve a monstrosity, Scott.

 

But...for my part it's all just mythology anyway.

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Can I say for certain that hell is real? Yes. Will I try to prove it? No. Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment

 

Japedo, Jesus was God and Man. He took the punishment for us, so yes, it is possible that He could have been there at one time in history.

 

Japedo and Antlerman, what you don't seem to understand is the fact that just because you can't understand something, doesn't mean it's not true. Do I understand everything the Bible teaches? No. But I know it's true.

Oh where to begin? You are mistaken in equating my not understanding the teachings of something that is based on objective observation and validated by unbiased testing and conformation, with not understanding how something that has no evidence can be valid. I can generally accept the credibility of something that is agreed upon by careful and dispassionate methods by those who are qualified in their fields of study, without needing to have an understanding of what they study. My lack of understanding is based on my unfamiliarity with the teachings, yet I will accept in principle that it is likely valid because of how the conclusions were arrived at.

 

However if we are dealing with something that has no way to validate its claims, those who are making the claims have no system to remove biases from their “discoveries”, no way to test and validate for others to agree with them on it, then I say it is non- credible and my inability to understand it has it’s poor basis for acceptance as my reason for not understanding it, not a lack of knowledge. Not only is it illogical, it is based on nothing credible.

 

You cannot say hell is for real. You cannot say God is for real. You cannot say the doctrine of the Trinity is real. Why do I say you cannot, you ask? Bear with me here Scott.

 

First of all you need some validation for these claims. You can’t just say pink unicorns are real because you believe they are, not if it is to have any meaning to anyone other than you. Though in one sense of the word “reality”, they are real in your mind, they however are not something that anyone else can see as real along with you without some sort of evidence to do so. Carl Sagan said so well, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

 

When I was 4 years old my sister was being mean to me by telling me that Santa Clause didn’t exist and that it was really just mom and dad leaving presents, my response to her went like this, “You’re lying! I KNOW Santa Clause exists!” In my personal reality, he was a real person to me. In reality outside of me he of course was something other than what I “knew” was true.

 

Belief in a Sky-God, water-walking messiahs, talking donkeys, seven-headed dragons, zombies filling the streets of Jerusalem after a God/Man’s murder to save all mankind, flying monkeys in the land of Oz, etc, are not along the same lines of you saying something that others can agree together with you on in a more objective manner, like remarking, “There is a tree at the end of this field”. You are making fantastical claims about fantastical things and are saying like I did to my sister in defense of my sacred and cherished beliefs when I was 4 years old, “But I KNOW he’s real!!” How can that possibly have meaning to us objectively?

 

That multiple people or even segments of the population believe together in fantastical ideas like pink unicorns and water-walking messiahs as real things in a reality external to themselves, is not an offering of objective evidence either. Popular acceptance of mythologies of any sort is not evidence that they are real. Many people still believe Elvis is alive. That’s their reality, but it is meaningless to others to act upon in any sort of universal way because it totally lacks support, moreover the evidence to the contrary is overwhelmingly evident to deny that claim. That overwhelming evidence is what most people will act on, and rightly so, wouldn’t you say?

 

Now of course I know that you are going to say the Bible is the source of validation. I’ll make this easy. At the very best, it would be the one making the claim, then offering evidence of its validity by pointing to the fact it just said it was! This is circular reasoning Scott. “I am entitled to all your money in your bank account. The reason I know this is a fact is because of the statement I just made in the last sentence.” Now, if this is a valid reason for you to accept the truth of what I just said then you can PM me and I’ll provide an address for you to send me your life savings.

 

This is what you are saying to me when you say I should spend my life believing in fantastical events with only this sort of evidence to their validity.

 

Now the real interesting thing with Christians is that they say in one breath that it all has to be taken on faith, and that’s fair enough, but then in the next breath they then point to evidence to validate what is to be taken on faith!! Which is it Scott? Ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary and equate denial with faith , or do we look for holes in our current knowledge where there is yet no contrary evidence where we can put God into that gap of knowledge and believe without evidence that this is evidence for God (as opposed to evidence of something else entirely different)?

 

Based on this above, how can you say you KNOW these things? What are you basing you knowledge on: Circular reasoning; Denial of overwhelming evidence to the contrary; Faith without evidence; Faith with evidence; personal emotions? Next question: How is that useful to anyone else? How is this any more valuable to the world then me as a 4 year old saying "I KNOW Santa Clause is real!"

 

 

I suppose you could argue this is how God communicates to the world, through the innocent faith of a child who just believes in wondrous ideas though a naivety of the real world around them, and that's all good and fine, but then would this faith of a child require you to be ignorant as an adult, to be retarded in a sense?

 

The magic of pink ponies, flying monkeys, talking donkeys, and water-walking messiahs do inspire the heart like the 4 year old's belief in the magic giver of Christmas gifts, but how does this 4 year old deal with being an adult? Set aside reality on Sundays as he dreams of flying messiahs, then resumes reality on Mondays? Or does he do as the fundamentalist, and reject the world of adults and live with all the other children of faith in Neverland with Peter Pan, Captain Hook, and the Lost Boys?

 

Alright. What you've said makes sense. The truth of the matter is, I can't prove Hell exists. I'm not sure if anyone can. If it's possible, I, personally, haven't found any evidence outside the Bible and those who claim to have had NDEs. I do believe in God. This isn't because I'm scared of death. This also isn't because I can't live up to "reality" like some people have said about Christians. I believe in God because of what I've seen, heard, and have been through. That's basically my personal testimony.

There are at least two things that can back up my faith. #1. When Jesus was arrested, His disciples fled in terror of being killed. Peter even denied Him three times. Something must have happened, because not too long after this happened, they all preached the gospel with boldness and were executed because of it.

#2. The Bible predicts many things to happen. All of the things the Bible predicted has happened, is happening, or will happen.

 

 

Scott:

 

I am a Satanist. So what can you tell me about my religion? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean what do I know about your religion, what my faith teaches about your religion, both, or neither?

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Scott:

 

I am a Satanist. So what can you tell me about my religion? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean what do I know about your religion, what my faith teaches about your religion, both, or neither?

Good. My first tap-dance routine was called "The Memphis Shuffle."

 

1. What do you know about my religion?

 

2. What does your faith teach about my religion?

 

This is in response to your assertion that "there are [sic] more than one kind of Satanism," which of course led me to believe that you know some stuff.

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Scott:

 

I am a Satanist. So what can you tell me about my religion? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean what do I know about your religion, what my faith teaches about your religion, both, or neither?

Good. My first tap-dance routine was called "The Memphis Shuffle."

 

1. What do you know about my religion?

 

2. What does your faith teach about my religion?

 

This is in response to your assertion that "there are [sic] more than one kind of Satanism," which of course led me to believe that you know some stuff.

 

#1.Well, first I'll ask you what type of Satanist you are? I've studied Modern Satanist and Theistic Satanism. I used to be a little of both. In Modern Satanism, Satan is symbolic. In Theistic Satanism, Satan is a god to be worshipped. I heard a sermon by this guy who called himself "Brother Nero". He was a Theistic Satanist. He said that it was complete bullshit if anyone claimed to be a Satanist, but didn't actually worship Satan himself.

 

#2. My faith teaches that in the last days, people will depart from the Faith and begin to worship demons. It also teaches that Satan is a liar and the father of it. All those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Like everyone else though, Jesus loves them and wants to forgive them, but it is their choice to accept His forgiveness.

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#2. My faith teaches that in the last days, people will depart from the Faith and begin to worship demons. It also teaches that Satan is a liar and the father of it. All those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Like everyone else though, Jesus loves them and wants to forgive them, but it is their choice to accept His forgiveness.

 

 

Reason and Logic are now considered "demons' I guess. I don't worship any deity. For every verse you find of Love I'll find one that preaches and teaches hate, some out of Christ's own quotes. I'd like to know why you cherry pick the verse that comfort you and dismiss the ones that paint your god in a true evil light?

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#2. My faith teaches that in the last days, people will depart from the Faith and begin to worship demons. It also teaches that Satan is a liar and the father of it. All those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Like everyone else though, Jesus loves them and wants to forgive them, but it is their choice to accept His forgiveness.

 

 

Reason and Logic are now considered "demons' I guess. I don't worship any deity. For every verse you find of Love I'll find one that preaches and teaches hate, some out of Christ's own quotes. I'd like to know why you cherry pick the verse that comfort you and dismiss the ones that paint your god in a true evil light?

 

Reason and logic are not considered demons. I believe he is speaking of literal demon worship and teachings that go against the Faith are called doctrines of demons. I have a book written by a Christian who uses reason and logic to prove Christianity to be true. I don't cherry pick anything. I take the gospel as a whole. I am interested though, what words from Christ can you quote that teaches hate?

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... I am interested though, what words from Christ can you quote that teaches hate?

 

How's this for starters?

 

Luke 14:26: Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

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Alright. What you've said makes sense. The truth of the matter is, I can't prove Hell exists. I'm not sure if anyone can. If it's possible, I, personally, haven't found any evidence outside the Bible and those who claim to have had NDEs. I do believe in God. This isn't because I'm scared of death.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. If an afterlife and promise of gold streets and Beverly Hills mansions were completely off the table, when you die, you die; no hevean, no hell, would you be a Christian?

 

This also isn't because I can't live up to "reality" like some people have said about Christians. I believe in God because of what I've seen, heard, and have been through. That's basically my personal testimony.

Well, I assume is more than because of seeing things or reading things. There has to be a driving emotional motive for believing anything. Have you ever evaluated those personal reasons might be?

 

There are at least two things that can back up my faith. #1. When Jesus was arrested, His disciples fled in terror of being killed. Peter even denied Him three times. Something must have happened, because not too long after this happened, they all preached the gospel with boldness and were executed because of it.

Of course this is the Bible making its claims about itself sound believable. They spun the story. What really happened, do you know? Moreover, many people have lost their faith, then come back with full zeal and power, so much so that they would fly airplanes into buildings. This is evidence of the power of the own beliefs, nothing about the validity of what they believe.

 

#2. The Bible predicts many things to happen. All of the things the Bible predicted has happened, is happening, or will happen.

Hardly.

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Alright. What you've said makes sense. The truth of the matter is, I can't prove Hell exists. I'm not sure if anyone can. If it's possible, I, personally, haven't found any evidence outside the Bible and those who claim to have had NDEs. I do believe in God. This isn't because I'm scared of death.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. If an afterlife and promise of gold streets and Beverly Hills mansions were completely off the table, when you die, you die; no hevean, no hell, would you be a Christian?

 

This also isn't because I can't live up to "reality" like some people have said about Christians. I believe in God because of what I've seen, heard, and have been through. That's basically my personal testimony.

Well, I assume is more than because of seeing things or reading things. There has to be a driving emotional motive for believing anything. Have you ever evaluated those personal reasons might be?

 

There are at least two things that can back up my faith. #1. When Jesus was arrested, His disciples fled in terror of being killed. Peter even denied Him three times. Something must have happened, because not too long after this happened, they all preached the gospel with boldness and were executed because of it.

Of course this is the Bible making its claims about itself sound believable. They spun the story. What really happened, do you know? Moreover, many people have lost their faith, then come back with full zeal and power, so much so that they would fly airplanes into buildings. This is evidence of the power of the own beliefs, nothing about the validity of what they believe.

 

#2. The Bible predicts many things to happen. All of the things the Bible predicted has happened, is happening, or will happen.

Hardly.

 

#1. The message of the gospel is eternal life. If there is no afterlife, all of Christianity is meaningless.

 

#2. Yes, I have evaluated what those reasons might be.

 

#3. How do you know they "spun the story"?

 

#4. Have you really studied prophecy at all? If you did, you would know there are many prophecies in the Bible that have come to pass, and are coming to pass. With this kind of accuracy, we can, with confidence, say that what it says will happen, will happen.

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#1. The message of the gospel is eternal life. If there is no afterlife, all of Christianity is meaningless.

You missed my point. If that message wasn't part of the Gospels, would you bother to be a Christan?

 

#2. Yes, I have evaluated what those reasons might be.

and...... what might those reasons be?

 

#3. How do you know they "spun the story"?

Oh brother. What do you think? The whole motivation behind the Gospel text is self promotion. Is it not?

 

#4. Have you really studied prophecy at all? If you did, you would know there are many prophecies in the Bible that have come to pass, and are coming to pass. With this kind of accuracy, we can, with confidence, say that what it says will happen, will happen.

Umm, yes as a graduate of a Bible college with a degree in theology, and think its safe to assume I have "really studied prophecy". The prophecys that have "come to pass" in the Bible are nonsense. Have you actually, yourself, on your own, without your support team nearby, gone back and actually read the OT passages that the NT says are prophecys? Try it and tell me it doesn't leave you scratching your head, only to default to answer that grand puzzlement with "it has to be true, the problem is me because this is God's perfect word"? Phooey. As far as what will come to pass..... :grin:

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#3. How do you know they "spun the story"?

 

 

Here's a little spinning:

 

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.

For every street, every marketplace is full of Zeus.

Even the sea and the harbor are full of this deity.

Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus,

For we are indeed his offspring.

[Phenomena 1- 5, The stoic poet Aratus (c 310 - 240 BC)]

 

 

In Him [Yahweh/ Jesus] we live and move and have our being; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.'

Acts 17.28

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Scott:

 

I am a Satanist. So what can you tell me about my religion? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean what do I know about your religion, what my faith teaches about your religion, both, or neither?

 

Good. My first tap-dance routine was called "The Memphis Shuffle."

 

1. What do you know about my religion?

 

2. What does your faith teach about my religion?

 

This is in response to your assertion that "there are [sic] more than one kind of Satanism," which of course led me to believe that you know some stuff.

 

#1.Well, first I'll ask you what type of Satanist you are? I've studied Modern Satanist and Theistic Satanism. I used to be a little of both. In Modern Satanism, Satan is symbolic. In Theistic Satanism, Satan is a god to be worshipped. I heard a sermon by this guy who called himself "Brother Nero". He was a Theistic Satanist. He said that it was complete bullshit if anyone claimed to be a Satanist, but didn't actually worship Satan himself.

 

#2. My faith teaches that in the last days, people will depart from the Faith and begin to worship demons. It also teaches that Satan is a liar and the father of it. All those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Like everyone else though, Jesus loves them and wants to forgive them, but it is their choice to accept His forgiveness.

 

Right. OK. So just as I knew when I asked the question, you are talking out of your ass, as usual. You don't know the first thing about Satanism, yet you claim that you do. You are a liar in all things, just as your god is.

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#2. My faith teaches that in the last days, people will depart from the Faith and begin to worship demons.

 

People have been departing from the faith and worshiping demons for centuries and they always will. Hardly a ground breaking prophesy from the bible there. I could make a prophesy that the sun will shine tomorrow and I'll be right. The thing is with a lot of bible prophecies, sooner or later, they'll come true by coincendence, but that's all it will be - coincendence.

 

The other scenario is that men will deliberately try to make them come true, just like people go out of their way to validate their horrorscopes.

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#4. Have you really studied prophecy at all? If you did, you would know there are many prophecies in the Bible that have come to pass, and are coming to pass. With this kind of accuracy, we can, with confidence, say that what it says will happen, will happen.

 

The kind of accuracy required by your own scriptures is 100%...

 

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. De 18:22

 

 

So by his own standard, your god is a false prophet...

 

 

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16:28

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OnceConvinced, everything will come to pass that is in the Bible by coincendence? So, if a world leader arises, people worship him as God, and then began to persecute Christians, it will all be a coincendence?

 

Darkside, Jesus was not a false prophet. When he said "Some of you may not taste death", I believe He was speaking of the second death.

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Darkside, Jesus was not a false prophet. When he said "Some of you may not taste death", I believe He was speaking of the second death.

 

And what about the passage makes you believe that he could be referring to the second death?

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OnceConvinced, everything will come to pass that is in the Bible by coincendence? So, if a world leader arises, people worship him as God, and then began to persecute Christians, it will all be a coincendence?

If anything even remotely occurs that looks like that, it will be because of fruitcakes like Dubya and the nuts in Iran who will act out of the belief that something like this is going to happen, and bring about a world war. However, in the end no Jesus will descend from the sky, no feet will land on Mt. Olive and split it in two, no 1000 year reign of a Jewish messiah, etc. What will happen if they fulfill their own version of their bleifs (self-fulfilled prophecies), is that there will just be lots, and lots, of death and disease and human misery - and religion will be at fault.

 

There will be no 2nd coming.

 

Darkside, Jesus was not a false prophet. When he said "Some of you may not taste death", I believe He was speaking of the second death.[/b]

Ummm.. Scott I would like you to back up what you just said with a bible verse, that what Jesus was talking about was referring to the second death. You cannot just pull something like that out of your ass and state it as a fact. You need to be able to support that. I know you cannot. I just want to see at least some effort. (Are these the sorts of answers you pastor gives you???)

 

Edit: Scott: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire." Re. 20:14

 

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

 

The second death happens at the end of the millenium at the Great White Throne judgement. The verse in Matthew talks about before the millenium. Again... every single one of them who were standing there died and Christ did not return. The second death reference makes zero sense here Scott. Please explain?

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Antlerman, the Second Coming will take place, and Jesus will judge the living and the dead. Everything the Bible said will happen, will come to pass.

 

You seem to think I ask my Pastor about everything, and blindly follow it. I study the Word of God for myself, also. It's only common sense to get someone of higher rank to help you interpret the Scripture, though. I do believe He is speaking of the second death, because I know He is not a liar.

 

Anything that is away from Christ is death. When you descend into hell, that is a type of death because Christ is not there. It is a complete seperation from God, forever. At the Great White Throne, He will formally sentence them to depart from Him, forever.

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