Is Hell Fair?

[KT45]

So christianity is like Saddam Hussen giving you a GIFT. You can either accept and contiune to worship him, or offend him by not taking it and end up tortured and dead!!! How loving.....

[Japedo]

Japedo, everyone has to accept a gift before it can be of any use. We have to believe in Jesus to wash away our sins to be saved. We have to accept His Gift. Doubt is not a sin. I don't recall where, but in the Bible a man said to Jesus "I believe. Help my unbelief!". So, it's more of a weakness than a sin.

 

lol you're nutz. If Nonbelieving is not a sin, what the heck is anyone going to hell for not believing then? So now people go to hell not for sins but for weakness, isn't that what you just said scott?? . Like a typical Fundy, you have no idea what the fk you're typing about. The rules are all subject to change on interpretation or a whim. The weak person is not the doubter, the weak person is the one to lazy to look for answers on their own and believe every thing they spoon-fed from some preacher. You have no idea what you believe or how your supposed god works/ doesn't work, punishes or has compassion. As soon as your backed into a intellectual corner.. you change your tune. That's why Antlermans Mimic of Fundys was so funny. Your beliefs are all subject to change 180 degrees if you feel your losing any footing. Built on a ROCK MY ASS.

[Everglaze]

The repeated question is this. How can anyone have a "relationship" with someone that they don't even know? Better yet, a someone that "works in mysterious ways beyond human comprehension"? Sounds like major bullshit to me.

 

Wash away sins to be saved? You have got to be kidding me. Saying this, yet continuing to sin and contradicting yourself from the actions that your "God" forbids you of really makes Jesus some major powerful guy huh? Even after you have been "cleansed," you still sin? Why? Aren't you supposed to be a new creature?

[Scott]

That's not what I said at all, Jupedo. There is a huge difference between disbelief and doubt. We don't go to hell for weakness, we go to hell for sin. Doubt is weakness, disbelief is sin, the very sin that leads to the second death.

 

Everglaze, we are supposed to try not to sin. But if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father.

[OnceConvinced]

OnceConvinced, everything will come to pass that is in the Bible by coincendence? So, if a world leader arises, people worship him as God, and then began to persecute Christians, it will all be a coincendence?

It will never happen. The world will not tolerate a dictator. Just look at what happened to Sadam Hussein. Besides there are many who believe all those prophesies have been fulfilled. And there are certainly plenty of people who have fit that prophesy through history.

 

Darkside, Jesus was not a false prophet. When he said "Some of you may not taste death", I believe He was speaking of the second death.

 

Paul also believed that the gospel had been preached to the entire world, another sure sign that Christ's return was eminent.

[nick5]

Scott, your belief if the weakness.

[Ouroboros]

Japedo, everyone has to accept a gift before it can be of any use. We have to believe in Jesus to wash away our sins to be saved. We have to accept His Gift. Doubt is not a sin. I don't recall where, but in the Bible a man said to Jesus "I believe. Help my unbelief!". So, it's more of a weakness than a sin.

Actually it's more like the protection scheme the mob uses.

 

Thug - Pay us money or we'll trash your store and break your kneecaps. And when you're done say "thank you" and that you love us.

 

Store owner - Okay, okay, don't hurt me! I'll pay up! And thank you for being so kind not to trash my store. I love you guys.

[Japedo]

That's not what I said at all, Jupedo. There is a huge difference between disbelief and doubt. We don't go to hell for weakness, we go to hell for sin. Doubt is weakness, disbelief is sin, the very sin that leads to the second death.

 

Everglaze, we are supposed to try not to sin. But if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father.

 

what bull you speak. As far as any gods go I'm agnostic.. I don't believe nor disbelieve There could be no 'punishment' for me as I simply don't know the truth and I'm still looking. Aren't you suppose to prove all things? Look at it this way Scott, In the day's of the Greek gods, how were the people to ever question their gods and their validity if one of the 'sins' was disbelief? In order for us to prove all things scrutiny must be applied to all beliefs until one comes away standing (If It can). It is Gods Job to prove he is god if that's what he claims, it is not my job to blindly believe some bs just because I'm told to turn or burn. If you can read about Zeus and doubt his existence then you should be able to do the same to your own god of choice, God should be able to hold up against pagan gods as well. Your great god would have to give you some way to decipher truth from lies. Where do you get that disbelief is a sin, how else to prove all things with out disbelief or doubt? Why would a god being a creator of the universe take on old pagan story's and apply them to himself, Shouldn't he be different or unique?

[Everglaze]

 

Everglaze, we are supposed to try not to sin. But if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father.

 

Try not to sin? See, this is exactly what gets to me. You're no longer of the old and you're supposed to be new now, since you accepted your "Lord and Saviour" Jesus. However, your Jesus' "sacrifice" and "divinity" couldn't even change you into that new creature who DOESN'T sin like he does. Wow, so much sense THAT makes.

[NotBlinded]

OnceConvinced, everything will come to pass that is in the Bible by coincendence? So, if a world leader arises, people worship him as God, and then began to persecute Christians, it will all be a coincendence?

Wow...sound just like what happened in Rome. Caesar was worshipped as a god...they even sacraficed animals to him and called him Lord.

 

The main challenge was to the lordship of Caesar, which, though certainly "political" was also profoundly "religious". Caesar demanded worship as well as "secular" obedience; not just taxes, but sacrifices. He was well on the way to becoming the supreme divinity in the Greco-Roman world, maintaining his vast empire not simply by force, though there was of course plenty of that, but by the development of a flourishing religion that seemed to be trumping most others either by absorption or by greater attraction. Caesar, by being a servant of the state, had provided justice and peace to the whole world. He was therefore to be hailed as Lord, and trusted as Savior.

 

Cool huh? I wonder if Rome persecuted any Christians...hmmm.

 

From: Paul's Gospel and Caesar's Empire

[NotBlinded]

The second death is not actually non-existence, it is being seperated from God forever. When each of us die, we will stand before God at judgment {Hebrews 9:27}. God {Jesus} will judge us and if we are cleansed from our sins by the blood of Christ, we will be allowed into heaven. If we are not cleansed, we will be sentenced to hell. Now, while this is a judgment, they will be judged again at the Great White Throne and will be sentenced to the Lake of Fire. The first judgment is the first phase of the second death. You are awaiting the last and final judgment, where you will finally and formally be seperated from God forever, and be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

And if you do get into heaven, you will get to be on your knees singing, hallelujah...hallelujah...hallelujah for all eternity. Oh the joy and bliss of being in church for eternity!

 

Please wake the f*#k up Scott.

[Antlerman]

And if you do get into heaven, you will get to be on your knees singing, hallelujah...hallelujah...hallelujah for all eternity. Oh the joy and bliss of being in church for eternity!

 

Please wake the f*#k up Scott.

So... tell me what you really think.

 

It raises a good point though, why exactly is heaven a reward? I mean are we going to doing anything there, like race cars, go sailing, bowling, you know - be human beings?

 

Frankly everything I'm hearing these days makes me think that the fundi wants to be saved from being a human being. There's another word for that we have right now. It's called suicide. That is an escape from being human in the most ultimate sense of the word. Salvation = Suicide. The death of being a human, to become something non-human .

 

This noted then when Scott says he can't imagine a reason for living, not believing in God, he has just said he despises his being alive as a human being. This is why Christianity in this form is completely unhealthy for people.

[NotBlinded]

And if you do get into heaven, you will get to be on your knees singing, hallelujah...hallelujah...hallelujah for all eternity. Oh the joy and bliss of being in church for eternity!

 

Please wake the f*#k up Scott.

So... tell me what you really think.

 

It raises a good point though, why exactly is heaven a reward? I mean are we going to doing anything there, like race cars, go sailing, bowling, you know - be human beings?

 

Frankly everything I'm hearing these days makes me think that the fundi wants to be saved from being a human being. There's another word for that we have right now. It's called suicide. That is an escape from being human in the most ultimate sense of the word. Salvation = Suicide. The death of being a human, to become something non-human .

 

This noted then when Scott says he can't imagine a reason for living, not believing in God, he has just said he despises his being alive as a human being. This is why Christianity in this form is completely unhealthy for people.

Well...there have been so many wonderful replies to this guy that he has not even given any inclination that he has understood any of them that I have resorted to being quite frank...frankly!

 

What fundamental Christianity does is to provide the child...yes even the adult child that has not grown out of this mindset, with a sense of a provider, nurturer, comforter and loving father that gives rewards for his children that do good. Just like a good father should. He also punishes the children that do bad things. His faith is still in infancy and is stuck there because his understanding won't allow him to mature. When people compare Santa with this belief, they are so right. Santa rewards with goodies and punishes with chunks of coal or ash (burnt things) because he knows who has been naughty or nice. He descends from the sky to visit you. He raises back up into the sky to the most top of the earth. Etc...

 

Scott has much growing to do. He needs this sense of a providing father to rely on because he feels alone in the world. No one knows him like he thinks God does, so God is the only one that can comfort him. With being human comes responsiblity (sounds like a line from Spiderman!). We can't always have the love and comfort we desire because we are looking for it elsewhere. We could have it if we were to understand that we already do have it. We just have to give it away in order to receive it.

 

I know you're not to fond of the bible, but I think this is what was meant when Jesus said, "The ones that have, more will be given and the ones that have not, all will be taken away." How lonely is it for a person that just sits around and waits for love to come to them? Everything is 'taken' away. We have all seen the people that are out there in the world loving others and they are surrounded with loving and caring people that love them. More will be 'given'. The ones that need it the most, never offer it first. So, they look to a diety that understands that no one loves them even though that very diety says things like I just typed. They don't get it though...I didn't. It does seem cruel that the ones that are on suicide's door are just wanting to be loved and understood. Yet, they are so afraid that they sit inside and hide from all the people that could provide them with this if only they were to give it also. They are the takers that see themselves as being the victim that all was taken away from.

 

Sorry...I'm rambling!

[mwc]

I know you're not to fond of the bible, but I think this is what was meant when Jesus said, "The ones that have, more will be given and the ones that have not, all will be taken away." How lonely is it for a person that just sits around and waits for love to come to them? We have all seen the people that are out there in the world loving others and they are surrounded with loving and caring people that love them. The ones that need it the most, never offer it first. So, they look to a diety that understands that no one loves them even though that very diety says things like I just typed. They don't get it though...I didn't. It does seem cruel that the ones that are on suicide's door are just wanting to be loved and understood. Yet, they are so afraid that they sit inside and hide from all the people that could provide them with this if only they were to give it also. They are the takers that see themselves as being the victim that all was taken away.

I both agree and disagree with you on all this.

 

We'll use Scott as the example since he's pretty much stopped responding to most folks on the site (at least those that have offered him any sort of challenge) but I know people like this from my personal experience as well. What if they "acted out" to get attention from their parents and simply didn't get it? They put themselves out there trying to get loved but their parents/siblings didn't respond? So they went "bad" (and "bad" could mean a "potty mouth" in some familes) for negative attention and that still didn't work. So all that have left is this sky daddy that simply loves them no matter what? They are just so afraid of intimacy/rejection anymore that "god" is *the* solution? Sadly they are both the victim and the users now.

 

What's ironic then is that xians ask us why we're angry at god for leaving him. In light of the above this would be a projection of their own feelings towards the person(s) that hurt them (or they feel hurt by) that they put onto us (because that's what made them leave and "act out") and the perfect relationship we should be in with god. So look at Scott's words (since I said I was going to use him as the example) and his acting out. No mention of parents getting involved. Then here's a "pastor" and god in a happy little family setting. We reject the perfect parent and we're the "bad" child. We must carry the same anger towards god (the good parent) that Scott carried towards his real parents. There are other xians that have passed through here (and one that is still here) that express this same basic pattern towards god and us. God is a replacement for their own crappy parent(s).

 

Sorry...I'm rambling!

I do this too. In fact, I lost my train of thought part way through the second paragraph...sorry about that. Hopefully I made my point before it derailed.

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

I both agree and disagree with you on all this.

 

We'll use Scott as the example since he's pretty much stopped responding to most folks on the site (at least those that have offered him any sort of challenge) but I know people like this from my personal experience as well. What if they "acted out" to get attention from their parents and simply didn't get it? They put themselves out there trying to get loved but their parents/siblings didn't respond? So they went "bad" (and "bad" could mean a "potty mouth" in some familes) for negative attention and that still didn't work. So all that have left is this sky daddy that simply loves them no matter what? They are just so afraid of intimacy/rejection anymore that "god" is *the* solution? Sadly they are both the victim and the users now.

 

What's ironic then is that xians ask us why we're angry at god for leaving him. In light of the above this would be a projection of their own feelings towards the person(s) that hurt them (or they feel hurt by) that they put onto us (because that's what made them leave and "act out") and the perfect relationship we should be in with god. So look at Scott's words (since I said I was going to use him as the example) and his acting out. No mention of parents getting involved. Then here's a "pastor" and god in a happy little family setting. We reject the perfect parent and we're the "bad" child. We must carry the same anger towards god (the good parent) that Scott carried towards his real parents. There are other xians that have passed through here (and one that is still here) that express this same basic pattern towards god and us. God is a replacement for their own crappy parent(s).

 

Sorry...I'm rambling!

I do this too. In fact, I lost my train of thought part way through the second paragraph...sorry about that. Hopefully I made my point before it derailed.

 

mwc

Yes, I understand what you're saying. I agree with you. It is a sad situation indeed. Yes, there are many people that do give love and don't get anything in return. Most likey a child. In this situation, it becomes instilled in them that loving only brings rejection. I guess the one being loved has to also recognize that they have love in them also in order to give it. Maybe they are the way they are because of the same situation. They gave love and never got it returned so they chose never to give it. They don't see the love they are given as being real. So, they look to something that can't just come out and reject their love because the image they have won't do that to them. They replace something real, but not understood as real with something that is not real but understood as real. Freakin' messed up world that we keep passing on to our children. It has to break somewhere doesn't it? We have to grow beyond this...

[OnceConvinced]

And if you do get into heaven, you will get to be on your knees singing, hallelujah...hallelujah...hallelujah for all eternity. Oh the joy and bliss of being in church for eternity!

 

Please wake the f*#k up Scott.

So... tell me what you really think.

 

It raises a good point though, why exactly is heaven a reward? I mean are we going to doing anything there, like race cars, go sailing, bowling, you know - be human beings?

 

I'd also like to know how God is going to deal with the sin issue. Is he going to do away with that freewill of ours, the very thing he thought was so vitally important that we have here on Earth? I guess we're going to be like robots in heaven. Programmed to never do anything wrong and never hurt another human being.

[Japedo]

 

 

I'd also like to know how God is going to deal with the sin issue. Is he going to do away with that freewill of ours, the very thing he thought was so vitally important that we have here on Earth? I guess we're going to be like robots in heaven. Programmed to never do anything wrong and never hurt another human being.

 

Of Course!! God is Borg and we must all assimilate for the collective, resistance is futile.

[NotBlinded]

 

 

I'd also like to know how God is going to deal with the sin issue. Is he going to do away with that freewill of ours, the very thing he thought was so vitally important that we have here on Earth? I guess we're going to be like robots in heaven. Programmed to never do anything wrong and never hurt another human being.

 

Of Course!! God is Borg and we must all assimilate for the collective, resistance is futile.

Japedo,

 

Do you know how right you are? Have you seen this website? The Borg of Heaven - The Bible describes the city of heaven as a 1500 mile cube, similar to Star Trek's Borg

 

Okay...this was fun to make! Poor taste? Probably, but oh well! At least it covers his age spots...

[Japedo]

 

Japedo,

 

Do you know how right you are? Have you seen this website? The Borg of Heaven - The Bible describes the city of heaven as a 1500 mile cube, similar to Star Trek's Borg

 

Thanks for sharing that link, No I hadn't seen it. The way OnceConvinced described heaven that's the only thing I could think of.

[Darkside]

And if you do get into heaven, you will get to be on your knees singing, hallelujah...hallelujah...hallelujah for all eternity. Oh the joy and bliss of being in church for eternity!

 

Please wake the f*#k up Scott.

So... tell me what you really think.

 

It raises a good point though, why exactly is heaven a reward? I mean are we going to doing anything there, like race cars, go sailing, bowling, you know - be human beings?

 

I'd also like to know how God is going to deal with the sin issue. Is he going to do away with that freewill of ours, the very thing he thought was so vitally important that we have here on Earth? I guess we're going to be like robots in heaven. Programmed to never do anything wrong and never hurt another human being.

 

I think this is an interesting issue. Christians will always say that the reason God gave Adam and Eve the option of sinning is because he wanted their genuine love; he didn't want them to be forced into obedience like robots. And yet, at the end of the day, this is exactly what their heaven is supposed to be like. Obviously nobody will have the option of sinning, so God will end up with a bunch of robots just like he would have had if he had created robots in the beginning. The only difference is that in addition to his robots, he'll have billions of people in hell. So the only real reason God would have given Adam and Eve the option of sinning is because he wanted souls to feed the flames of hell for a testimony of his holiness. Glory to God!

[Taphophilia]

 

I think this is an interesting issue. Christians will always say that the reason God gave Adam and Eve the option of sinning is because he wanted their genuine love; he didn't want them to be forced into obedience like robots. And yet, at the end of the day, this is exactly what their heaven is supposed to be like. Obviously nobody will have the option of sinning, so God will end up with a bunch of robots just like he would have had if he had created robots in the beginning. The only difference is that in addition to his robots, he'll have billions of people in hell. So the only real reason God would have given Adam and Eve the option of sinning is because he wanted souls to feed the flames of hell for a testimony of his holiness. Glory to God!

 

If I put an apple on the dining room table and tell my kid not to eat it. Then they sneak a bite out of the apple when I am not looking, according to Christians that means my kid doesn't love me?

 

If I really didn't want my kid to have the apple, I would have put it someplace where they couldn't get to it. Telling them not to eat it, then leaving it in plain sight, and then blaming them

for eating it, is poor parenting skills.

[Scott]

OnceConvinced, everything will come to pass that is in the Bible by coincendence? So, if a world leader arises, people worship him as God, and then began to persecute Christians, it will all be a coincendence?

It will never happen. The world will not tolerate a dictator. Just look at what happened to Sadam Hussein. Besides there are many who believe all those prophesies have been fulfilled. And there are certainly plenty of people who have fit that prophesy through history.

 

Darkside, Jesus was not a false prophet. When he said "Some of you may not taste death", I believe He was speaking of the second death.

 

Paul also believed that the gospel had been preached to the entire world, another sure sign that Christ's return was eminent.

 

The AntiChrist will not be like Sadam Hussein. The world will accept him because he will have great plans for peace. The world wants peace. He will not come to the earth as a dictator, but as a man who will bring peace to the earth. After this, whether he will actually be killed or not, he will seem to have a head wound, then be ressurected to life. All the world, save those who have their names written in the Book of Like, will be deceived. Then the False Prophet will issue the mark of allegiance. Would you not follow someone who brought peace to the entire world and performed many great supernatual signs? Only after he has deceived the whole world into believing he is Deity, will he proceed to kill anyone and everyone who will not follow him. Yes, the world will follow this "man of peace". They will also think it is right that anyone who does not follow him must die. I find this interesting to think about; People who are not Christians or exChristians don't believe us because God is something we cannot see. Yet, when this man will come up with all types of great power, they will think he is God, and we will be called crazy because we believe in a God who we cannot see, yet this guy is doing miracles.

[roman]

L. Ron Hubbard had better plots.

[OnceConvinced]

OnceConvinced, everything will come to pass that is in the Bible by coincendence? So, if a world leader arises, people worship him as God, and then began to persecute Christians, it will all be a coincendence?

It will never happen. The world will not tolerate a dictator. Just look at what happened to Sadam Hussein. Besides there are many who believe all those prophesies have been fulfilled. And there are certainly plenty of people who have fit that prophesy through history.

 

Darkside, Jesus was not a false prophet. When he said "Some of you may not taste death", I believe He was speaking of the second death.

 

Paul also believed that the gospel had been preached to the entire world, another sure sign that Christ's return was eminent.

 

The AntiChrist will not be like Sadam Hussein. The world will accept him because he will have great plans for peace. The world wants peace. He will not come to the earth as a dictator, but as a man who will bring peace to the earth. After this, whether he will actually be killed or not, he will seem to have a head wound, then be ressurected to life. All the world, save those who have their names written in the Book of Like, will be deceived. Then the False Prophet will issue the mark of allegiance. Would you not follow someone who brought peace to the entire world and performed many great supernatual signs? Only after he has deceived the whole world into believing he is Deity, will he proceed to kill anyone and everyone who will not follow him. Yes, the world will follow this "man of peace". They will also think it is right that anyone who does not follow him must die. I find this interesting to think about; People who are not Christians or exChristians don't believe us because God is something we cannot see. Yet, when this man will come up with all types of great power, they will think he is God, and we will be called crazy because we believe in a God who we cannot see, yet this guy is doing miracles.

Look at it this way Scott. Let's say you meet your perfect woman. She's everything you ever dreamed of. You marry her, but then one day discover that she has a shed containing the murdered bodies of menshe has killed. Further more, you find out she is going to kill all the men of the town you are living in. What are you going to do? Try to stop her in some way? Will you still be just as committed to her? Of course not.

 

The people of this world are not that stupid, not that blind and not that loyal. If a dictator pops up and he seems like the world's saviour and then suddenly one day turns around and starts executing millions of people for not taking a number on their forehead or hand, then all those who thought he was wonderul at first are quickly going to turn against him. Come on Scott, get real here. Just the fact that so many people in this world abhor the death penalty should be enough to know that noone will stand for that sort of thing. Freedom and democracy is too highly valued. Human rights are too highly valued.

[Taphophilia]

 

 

The people of this world are not that stupid, not that blind and not that loyal. If a dictator pops up and he seems like the world's saviour and then suddenly one day turns around and starts executing millions of people for not taking a number on their forehead or hand, then all those who thought he was wonderul at first are quickly going to turn against him. Come on Scott, get real here. Just the fact that so many people in this world abhor the death penalty should be enough to know that noone will stand for that sort of thing. Freedom and democracy is too highly valued. Human rights are too highly valued.

 

I very much agree. Most of us just don't blindly follow something or someone. The only people that I can see following someone like that are Christians and others who are used to regergetating and chewing the cud of what they are told to believe.

 

Lets use Mother Theresa, for example, we have had Christains come here and tout her virtures, when the truth is she was a fucking bitch.