Is Hell Fair?

[Legion]

Scott I gotta tell you. You are not going to impress these people with your knowledge. I strongly suspect that their collective knowledge far outweighs your own.

 

Look at these people here. They laugh at you, they mock you, they harbor contempt for you. Now if you can find it within yourself to LOVE these people then I for one will be impressed.

[Ouroboros]

Because the Bible gives us clear detail of how Jesus will come back, and how to Antichrist will rise to power.

Really? How old are you? During the time I was Christian I managed to get several different versions of how the "rapture" would be.

 

I don't hold a rapture view. The rapture, even if it happens at the Second Coming, is not the same exact thing as when Jesus returns to the earth. I was speaking of the time Jesus actually come back.

So, to get this straight. The Bible is so clear to give the details of the return of Jesus, and yet a large group of Christians hold the view of the rapture, and you don't. What am I missing here? If it is so clear, why the differences in beliefs?

[kellyb]

Scott, how can you believe that anyone could be more successful than Jesus? (and no don't count all the millions that converted to Christianity since his death. They don't count. - we're talking about his influence while he was alive.)

The Bible says that the road to destruction is big and wide, and few follow the path of the straight and narrow.

[Ouroboros]

Scott, how can you believe that anyone could be more successful than Jesus? (and no don't count all the millions that converted to Christianity since his death. They don't count. - we're talking about his influence while he was alive.)

The Bible says that the road to destruction is big and wide, and few follow the path of the straight and narrow.

Maybe God should have sent Antichrist instead of Jesus to get more saved souls to Heaven?

[nick5]

Scott, how can you believe that anyone could be more successful than Jesus? (and no don't count all the millions that converted to Christianity since his death. They don't count. - we're talking about his influence while he was alive.)

The Bible says that the road to destruction is big and wide, and few follow the path of the straight and narrow.

 

The question is, why would an intelligent designer make the RIGHT path difficult and narrow... doesn't sound very inttlligent to me.

[Everglaze]

Scott, how can you believe that anyone could be more successful than Jesus? (and no don't count all the millions that converted to Christianity since his death. They don't count. - we're talking about his influence while he was alive.)

The Bible says that the road to destruction is big and wide, and few follow the path of the straight and narrow.

 

The question is, why would an intelligent designer make the RIGHT path difficult and narrow... doesn't sound very inttlligent to me.

 

Because he's a sick bastard that likes to toy with people's lives. There is no intelligence in this "designer" created by men. After all, it is ignorant men that create these beings. It's equivalent to a full grown man obeying a toy that he created. Maybe it's all just an excuse, because so many people are waking up from the lies of this myth and the only way to "explain" it is to say that only few will follow the path of the straight and narrow. People will do anything to magically suit the words the way they want to. There's nothing nuttier than full grown adults who still believe in Santa...cough coughGodcough. I got them mixed up for a second there.

[kellyb]

Scott, how can you believe that anyone could be more successful than Jesus? (and no don't count all the millions that converted to Christianity since his death. They don't count. - we're talking about his influence while he was alive.)

The Bible says that the road to destruction is big and wide, and few follow the path of the straight and narrow.

Maybe God should have sent Antichrist instead of Jesus to get more saved souls to Heaven?

 

God did have the power to have done just that, didn't he?

Hmmm...or at least made Antichrist an apostle or something. He would have been way better than old Bart. That guy never did anything.

 

Scott, how can you believe that anyone could be more successful than Jesus? (and no don't count all the millions that converted to Christianity since his death. They don't count. - we're talking about his influence while he was alive.)

The Bible says that the road to destruction is big and wide, and few follow the path of the straight and narrow.

 

The question is, why would an intelligent designer make the RIGHT path difficult and narrow... doesn't sound very inttlligent to me.

 

The Lord does work in mysterious ways, doesn't He?

Of course, the very fact that He created Satan knowing full well he'd trick Eve, resulting in billions and billions of human souls frying for eternity...each and every one of those souls being fetuses at some point that God could humanly choose to allow to miscarry since he knows who's going to burn before we're even born, by the way, shows that God has an odd sense of humor.

 

"For My ways are not your ways"....

A-fucking-men.

[Taphophilia]

The thing that gets me is that all Scott does is parrot what he's been taught. He's being trained by other Christians. They teach him what they have been taught by Christians who were before them and so on.

The knowledge handed down is allegedy "bible based" and "scriptural". In fact, it is only what they have been taught and decided to accept as true. What they've been taught is incorrect, inaccurate and most important unproven. And they in turn teach their falsehoods to others.

[Everglaze]

The thing that gets me is that all Scott does is parrot what he's been taught. He's being trained by other Christians. They teach him what they have been taught by Christians who were before them and so on.

The knowledge handed down is allegedy "bible based" and "scriptural". In fact, it is only what they have been taught and decided to accept as true. What they've been taught is incorrect, inaccurate and most important unproven. And they in turn teach their falsehoods to others.

 

Yeah, I see that. All the "counselling" that he's gotten were from Christians and all his knowledge seems to be coming from this pastor figure that he holds in such high regard. I honestly think he's controlled by multiple individuals all within the religious circle. He has no ability to think with his own brain. It's no different than those crazy folks with wild smiles on their faces while they chant "God's wrath will pour on you all!"

[Scott]

Scott I gotta tell you. You are not going to impress these people with your knowledge. I strongly suspect that their collective knowledge far outweighs your own.

 

Look at these people here. They laugh at you, they mock you, they harbor contempt for you. Now if you can find it within yourself to LOVE these people then I for one will be impressed.

 

I don't deny that some of the people here are intellectually smarter than I am. However, without faith, all the "knowledge" in the world amounts to absolutely nothing.

[nick5]

[Ramen666]

Scott I gotta tell you. You are not going to impress these people with your knowledge. I strongly suspect that their collective knowledge far outweighs your own.

 

Look at these people here. They laugh at you, they mock you, they harbor contempt for you. Now if you can find it within yourself to LOVE these people then I for one will be impressed.

 

I don't deny that some of the people here are intellectually smarter than I am. However, without faith, all the "knowledge" in the world amounts to absolutely nothing.

 

 

[Taphophilia]

Scott I gotta tell you. You are not going to impress these people with your knowledge. I strongly suspect that their collective knowledge far outweighs your own.

 

Look at these people here. They laugh at you, they mock you, they harbor contempt for you. Now if you can find it within yourself to LOVE these people then I for one will be impressed.

 

I don't deny that some of the people here are intellectually smarter than I am. However, without faith, all the "knowledge" in the world amounts to absolutely nothing.

 

Scott,

 

You are basing your entire life's philosophy on a perception of what God is that is being fed to you. How do you know that your denomination, church, and all the Christian's who told you what to believe has it right?

[Ramen666]

Ramen666 Rises:

 

Scott besides you ignoreing my whole post and everyone else's. God is so good , God is great what you keep saying. If God is so good and nice and your great pal. Why is it there is so many athesist's starting to rise. We did our homwork, we read the Bible , we prayed and went to church. For one reason or another we were Christian at one time. God's power must not be the strong because he is loosing sheep.

 

Faith is something that is outside Christianity. Yeah believe in the Boogy man or you die. How can you base your whole life on a book 2000 years old. Written for those people in that time period. Written by supersticious drunks. What IF THE CATHOLICS ARE RIGHT? They did come first before your denomination. They were the first established religion not Christianity. Think on that one. See the flaws I am pointing out. Your denomination is not neccessarily right. Like my former church it was always " we know what we are talking about the other church's are false." If I were to go to another church same thing " all others are wrong."

 

In todays society we don't religon. It something forcing itself to exsist. Just because your pastor, The Bible says it is right doesn't mean a thing. It is actually vary bias, A pastor ( hope he hasn't had butsecs with you) Would you die for your God? If someone had a gun to your head, would you die for him? It was a tradedy what happend to that girl at Columbine High School for saying she was Christian. I feel so sorry for her family. Christians look at that and say thats how we should base our faith. Even as a Christian I couldn't do that I would not commit to something that would cost me my life.

 

My conclusions

 

God is not all powerful ( He can't prevent anything)

 

God is not moral ( He let's children die , even orders it)

 

God is not all knowing ( Why make hell if we are already destined?)

 

God is there for no one. not me , not you. ( Just read my other threads)

 

Scott you are not responding and choosing to ignore everyone. How can you love your enemy? We are your enemy according to the Bible. The Bible is rubbsish.

[Legion]

Scott I gotta tell you. You are not going to impress these people with your knowledge. I strongly suspect that their collective knowledge far outweighs your own.

 

Look at these people here. They laugh at you, they mock you, they harbor contempt for you. Now if you can find it within yourself to LOVE these people then I for one will be impressed.

 

I don't deny that some of the people here are intellectually smarter than I am. However, without faith, all the "knowledge" in the world amounts to absolutely nothing.

 

Actually Scott I suspect that you are a fairly intelligent guy. I think that you've hampered yourself a little, but that's not my point.

 

Be patient, be kind, do not envy, do not brag, do not be proud, do not be rude, do not seek your own ends, do not be easily angered, do not keep account of wrongs. In short, love.

[kellyb]

Scott I gotta tell you. You are not going to impress these people with your knowledge. I strongly suspect that their collective knowledge far outweighs your own.

 

Look at these people here. They laugh at you, they mock you, they harbor contempt for you. Now if you can find it within yourself to LOVE these people then I for one will be impressed.

 

I don't deny that some of the people here are intellectually smarter than I am. However, without faith, all the "knowledge" in the world amounts to absolutely nothing.

 

I used to think that, too, Scott. I really did.

But here's the thing.

Say something doesn't make too much sense when you really think about it...let's take this equation:

All Loving, All Powerful God+ Eternal Hell= Truth

 

Now, Scott, you know that's not right. I know you know that.

But hey, you've got faith, right? So it's cool.

So with faith that it just has to make sense, you can rationalize around it. Coz you've got faith.

I used to do that, too.

 

But deep down inside you know somewhere that you're bullshitting yourself, coz really, no all loving god would allow people to fry in hell for eternity.

And you know this.

So yes, faith sustains your belief that you treasure. Admitting that it just doesn't make sense is very scary, and you're not prepared to do that at this time, and I understand that.

 

But consider the possibility that what you're calling faith is actually your ability to bullshit yourself and ignore real, actual truth.

Your pastor's faith is also his ability to ignore real truth. People of great faith are amazingly good at bullshitting themselves.

I know. I was quite good at it myself for a very long time.

[Astreja]

At the moment that "faith" starts to diverge from cold, hard facts, you are walking on quicksand.

 

When "faith" leads you away from reason and good, solid common sense, you are sinking and in dire danger of drowning.

 

Common sense tells me that a being that creates a place of eternal punishment is not good in any accepted sense of that word. Common sense tells me that Hell is not fair in any accepted sense of that word. The idea of an invulnerable, immortal being punishing anyone for anything is absolutely ludicrous.

 

And, while reading this thread, I was reminded of something Thomas Paine wrote in one of his earlier writings. To paraphrase, why are we so misguided as to think that the people in our distant past knew more about morality and philosophy than us? Very few of the "virtuous" Bible characters would be worth a second glance in today's world. Their ideas of justice, goodness and honour are, for the most part, extremely primitive. It's time to toss out those ancient writings because their idea of "morality" creates hell on earth.

[mwc]

When the rich man went to Hell, he wasn't allowed to come back to life and tell others about the afterlife because they would not believe.

I'm going to take this opportunity to correct you on this hopefully once and for all. Luke 16:27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,"

 

I've watched you use and misuse this poor little story since the time you've arrived here and no matter what I say you keep abusing it. The rich man simply wanted a drop of water. When he couldn't get it he accepted his fate and wanted Lazarus to warn his family so they would not have to join him.

 

It' entirely different than someone coming back from the dead and claim to be God.

Here's where you really lose it though. Do you have any dead friends/family/others? If they came back and told you of "the other side" would you NOT believe them? I'm not talking about so-called "near death experiences" but full on death. Let's say dead for a year and then they somehow appeared, alive and in reasonable condition telling you about the afterlife. Would you believe them or would they need to need to proclaim some special "god" status? Would you only believe them if, and only if, what they told you agreed with what you believed to be waiting for you on the other side? Would you believe a person who you know, presumably trusted while they were alive, who died and came back to life (which gives them first hand knowledge of the afterlife) OR do you believe a book, in this case the bible, if the two descriptions differ?

 

But if someone dies and comes back from the dead why can't they claim to be god? Jesus did. If it walks like a duck, right Scott? So jesus did "god" things because he was "god." So if this new guy can do "god" things then doesn't that make him a god too? If not then why not? Why makes a god a god?

 

Your answer should come to you quickly. Because a true god gets his power from himself. This new guy gets his power from Satan and Satan gets his power from the one true LOVING god. STOP! YOUR LOVING GOD IS FUELING THE ENEMY BY CHOICE! Now invoke "FREE WILL." Do it. God gives us free will so we'll love him by choice and all that jazz. But Satan isn't going to love him and he knows it. So it's time to YANK Satan's powers. This doesn't remove his precious free will but only his powers. It also doesn't impede our free will either because sin is within US so we don't NEED Satan or demons for temptation, sin or free will. This whole thing is a sham. So god yanks Satan's powers, which makes him impotent and the antichrist and demons impotent as well. We all have free will and sin but the whole "end times" apocolypse slaughter is called off because no armies rise up. Gods party is ruined. All that's left is the 1000 years and the final judgement.

 

Can't you see all this stuff in Revelation is ultimately pointless? It serves no purpose. If Satan isn't a god then what's the point of the fight if god is the one who powers Satan? He can simply "pull the plug" on Satan. The fact that he doesn't shows that he cannot or he will not. The former showing YHWH is weaker or Satan is stronger than previously thought OR if the latter YHWH is powering the enemy because he WANTS the battle to go as described with all the casualties making him evil as charged because he has the power to stop it.

 

I keep telling you these are not magic tricks. Satan has been deceiving people since the beginning of time. He's smart enough to do more than just "magic tricks".

I hear you loud and clear. Don't worry. Let's go over what you're saying though. First, Satan has not been deceiving since the beginning of time. He is a loyal member of YHWH's court. You have asserted otherwise but have been unable to back your assertion. However, for the moment, let's say you're correct. He's "smart enough" and he is "[deceptive]." Neither of these two things nor anything in the bible regarding angels grant him POWER enough to do such things. Angels are "messengers" and "watchers." Sometimes they are called upon to fight so they have physical strength beyond humans and they've been shown to have limited supernatural ability (such as possessing people/animals, causing/curing illness and so on). Even in the OT when demons were "pretending" to be "gods" they were weak and easily dispatched.

 

Is bringing peace to the world a magic trick?

Is it a miracle? Is it "evil?" "Peace on earth and good will towards men." Why is it "good" at xmas but "bad" if it happens any other time? Peace treaties and other negotiations should just stop forever because someone working on them, the charismatic guy, just *might* be the antichrist and we can't risk it? World peace just isn't worth the risk? So if we ever see peace coming we should, at all cost, find a way to throw a wrench in the works? Can't you see how self-defeating that is?

 

Let's look at it two ways. Let's welcome this peace bringer. We get peace. Nothing happens. Yay. OR. We get what you say we're going to get and jesus comes. It's win-win for you. Why do xians fear any of this? You should WELCOME the AntiChrist. You should WANT to raise up this spawn of Satan. If it's true you get jesus. If it's not you still get world peace. What a deal!

 

Is ressurecting from the dead a magic trick?

Define death. No hearthbeat? 1 minute? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? No head? What is death?

 

They used to attach bells to graves so people could ring them if they were burried alive since detecting death wasn't quite as accurate as it is today. The thing is we define clinical death differently than we did even 100 years ago so I can only imagine how fast and loose it was 2000 years ago and what it just might be 2000 years from now.

 

Or are we talking about some metaphorical type of thing as in his career was dead but now, thanks to "world peace" he's back in the public eye. He's been "resurrected." That allows a prophecy to be fulfilled too.

 

Is calling fire down from heaven a magic trick?

Depends what we're talking about. I'm not trying to hedge my bet but we're in the book of Revelation and it's all symbolic (of Nero but I won't go there). Are we talking "heaven" where god lives or heaven the sky? Case in point. President Bush could order a strike on a country and from the ground it would look like he's calling fire down from heaven. Does that fulfill your "prophesy?" How about something like napalm? Nice sticky burning fire reigning down on you? That would fit the bill too. Lots of things in modern life could easily do this and not be a miracle.

 

Is it a magic trick to have the power to make an image speak?

I guess you've never been to Disneyland? Yes, Scott, it's magic...it's pixie dust.

 

If you want to know the secret behind the magic do a search for animatronics.

 

Absolutely not. It is the power or Satan himself unleahed to deceive the entire world.

Perhaps 2000 years ago Scott, but not today.

 

My father used to be a volunteer fireman so I've heard the stories of people who were dead having CPR done on them being brought back to life. I've read stories and watched television shows about the people who were buried alive even though they were considered dead for the time period or were "zombies" because they were given drugs to simulate death so they could be dug up later.

 

I've also witnessed the "Shock and Awe" campaign via the television and I've heard the stories of Vietnam vets so I could see and hear about "fire from the heavens."

 

Had I seen a talking idol hundreds or a couple thousand years ago I would have shit my pants (robe)...but I've seen singing tiki's birds (a whole room of them) and pirates and ghosts and lots of others many times (that's one of the perks, or curses, of living near Disneyland I guess).

 

I'm sorry but nothing you describe is a magic trick or a miracle. As I said, perhaps a couple thousand years ago but not today.

 

mwc

[Ramen666]

Well said mwc. If God is powering the enemy but he can anytime pull the plug? He allows it to happen all the evils anyway. Satan is God's puppet in other words Scott. Satan's powers come from God. God had forseen the future and allows it to happen. It makes perfect since.You are all powerful , could do anything. Even take away your enemies powers ANYTIME but you choose to do nothing. God is not that powerful in other words or he is not moral.

 

The Disneyland metaphor well said. I have also seen pirates, ghosts and many stange things their to. I have also seen magcians make a car appear and a helicopter right on stage. Magic tricks. The Anti Christ is better than Jesus in his works never thought of that. People in the world must have to be stupid to follow him. Wait even Christians will follow the Anti-Christ? LMAO (shouldn't they know) OMG this is so funny.

[Scott]

I don't think Christians will be deceived. Some people who previously "appeared" to be Christians will be deceived. I have two questions for you Ramen.

 

1. What did you mean when you said the AntiChrist is better than Jesus?

 

2. Do you hate God or do you just not believe He exists? If you don't believe He exists, then what is the significance of the thee six's?

[KT45]

Jesus will come back in the sky.

Will he come from space or transfer through dimensions? How will you recongize him since we don't know what he looks like? What specific actions will he do so that you will say "this IS jesus". All I remember him doing is riding a white horse out of the sky and killing people with a sword from his mouth. Is that how you will know it is him?

[Scott]

Jesus will come back in the sky.

Will he come from space or transfer through dimensions? How will you recongize him since we don't know what he looks like? What specific actions will he do so that you will say "this IS jesus". All I remember him doing is riding a white horse out of the sky and killing people with a sword from his mouth. Is that how you will know it is him?

 

I believe everyone is convicted by the Spirit of God at some point in our life to know that Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be. When Jesus comes back He will appear with the sound of a great trumpet, with all the holy angels, and with all the saints. It will be unmistakeable who He is. Everyone in heaven, on earth, and in Hell will know it when Jesus returns. We know this because in Scripture it says all the earth will mourn when they see Him. They'll know who He is and they'll know they blew it. Christians who are grounded in the Word of God will know the first so-called "Christ" is a phony, because of what Scripture says about him. This doesn't really have to do with what we're talking about, but that's why I'm against holding a rapture view. If you're a pretribulationist, you will expect Jesus to come before the AntiChrist, so you may be deceived by the phony, or knowing you will actually have to go through the Tribulation will shake your faith. If your a posttribulationist you will think Jesus is not coming for a long time like the "wicked servant" and begin to live in sin. The way I see it, we should always expect the return of Jesus, and also be prepared to go through the Great Tribulation.

[KT45]

When Jesus comes back He will appear with the sound of a great trumpet, with all the holy angels, and with all the saints. It will be unmistakeable who He is. Everyone in heaven, on earth, and in Hell will know it when Jesus returns.

So where will Jesus be coming from? Will he travel through space on his horse, will he be going through dimensions, is he coming from the clouds? If you say heaven, where is it?

[Ryan]

Jesus will come back in the sky.

Will he come from space or transfer through dimensions? How will you recongize him since we don't know what he looks like? What specific actions will he do so that you will say "this IS jesus". All I remember him doing is riding a white horse out of the sky and killing people with a sword from his mouth. Is that how you will know it is him?

 

I believe everyone is convicted by the Spirit of God at some point in our life to know that Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be. When Jesus comes back He will appear with the sound of a great trumpet, with all the holy angels, and with all the saints. It will be unmistakeable who He is. Everyone in heaven, on earth, and in Hell will know it when Jesus returns. We know this because in Scripture it says all the earth will mourn when they see Him. They'll know who He is and they'll know they blew it. Christians who are grounded in the Word of God will know the first so-called "Christ" is a phony, because of what Scripture says about him. This doesn't really have to do with what we're talking about, but that's why I'm against holding a rapture view. If you're a pretribulationist, you will expect Jesus to come before the AntiChrist, so you may be deceived by the phony, or knowing you will actually have to go through the Tribulation will shake your faith. If your a posttribulationist you will think Jesus is not coming for a long time like the "wicked servant" and begin to live in sin. The way I see it, we should always expect the return of Jesus, and also be prepared to go through the Great Tribulation.

 

You're right. We ought to expect the return of Jesus any day now. It's a grand tradition stretching back to when good ole Jeezy Chreezy went up into the sky. Okay, so maybe he didn't come back within the apostles' lifetimes like he said he would, but God's timing is not our timing. Glory.

[Ramen666]

I don't think Christians will be deceived. Some people who previously "appeared" to be Christians will be deceived. I have two questions for you Ramen.

 

1. What did you mean when you said the AntiChrist is better than Jesus?

 

2. Do you hate God or do you just not believe He exists? If you don't believe He exists, then what is the significance of the thee six's?

 

 

1. I mean the Anti Christ can convince he is God more than Jesus did. Billions of people will be believe in the Anti Christ. In the Bible Jesus did approximently 1,000 +-. The Anti Christ can save more than Jesus that is just sad.

 

2. The 666 thing. In all my screenames for anything I use "Ramen" in it. The 666 thing just refers to the Bible and the devil. Since this is an Ex Christian website I can remeber 666 easy. It also offends Christians. It means nothing I always include a number in my name. I believe God is a evil character (that was created by men) but people tend to believe he exsist. (SCOTT!) I use ithe 666's for more sattire purposes. God doesn't exsist like I said but I hate the charcter that people worship and try to force there beliefs on me.