Is Hell Fair?

[Lizard]

Scott..none of that is reasonable. I once believed it was. Got all caught up in the Left Behind scenario..I know, you said you don't believe the pretrib rapture, et al.

 

Let me tell you though..I was a Christian for longer than you've been alive. I'm still shaking my head at the insanity. I'm not an unintelligent person. But, it was so easy to get caught up in the emotionalism that is religion.

 

2000 years is not "soon"..by any definition of the word..

 

Lets face it..if Jesus existed..he's not coming back. Turn out the lights and go to bed..the party's over..and has been, for a really long time. The guest of honor is not going to show up.

[Taphophilia]

Scott,

 

I know this may be long, but it may help you figure things out.

 

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ spoke to His disciples 2000 years ago, telling them that he would return, that he was "coming again". His promise remains one of the most central themes in the myriad of Christian belief systems. Except for a very small minority, Christians still believe he is coming again, the Parousia, the rapture. Is His promise still valid? Has He yet to return? Or did He make the promise only to break it in the lifetime of those to whom He spoke?

 

The Promise

The following is taken from the Bible. All verses are from the King James version unless otherwise noted.

 

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Fatherwith his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death*, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 16: 27-28

 

The language is clear. Jesus told his disciples that some of them would not taste of death - would not die - before he returned, until he came into his kingdom.

 

If you've been mistakenly taught that the verses above refer to Christ's Transfiguration, read Revelation 20:12 which coincides with Matthew 16:27 in describing a Judgment Day scenario:

 

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:12

 

Christ was, again, clearly referring to his second coming before that present generation passed.

 

Again, Jesus tells his disciples:

 

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the cloudsof heaven with power and great glory.

 

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:30-34

 

Again, Christ describes certain events and warns those who are listening to him that "This generation shall not pass*, till all these things be fulfilled". He is speaking about their present generation.

 

Although the above scriptures clearly convey that Christ was talking about his present generation, there are many other references in the New Testament indicating that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles as well as the followers of Christ firmly believed that Jesus was speaking of their present generation and not some future time hundreds or thousands of years down the road.

 

Jesus spoke to his followers again about his coming according to the book of Matthew:

 

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

 

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 10:22-23

 

The cities of Israel were not so numerous that it would have taken a fleeing man 2000 years to go over or through them. No man could live that long. Christ said before a fleeing man could go through all the cities, he would come. Again, Christ was speaking of his return in that generation. He left no doubt as to his meaning in this passage.

 

What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short*. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

(1 Corinthians 7:29-31 - NIV)

 

Paul tells the Corinthians that time is short and that the world in its present form is passing away. His words have a strong sense of urgency, rather than being a mere suggestion. Paul believes the world is presently passing away. He is not speaking of some event which could take place 2000 years in the future.

 

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep*, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

1 Corinthians 15:50-53

 

In this passage, Paul tells the Corinthians We shall not all sleep. Again, Paul is convinced and is convincing the Corinthians that the second coming of Christ is imminent in that generation and not all who hear his words will "sleep" or die prior to Christ's coming.

 

 

We Which Are Alive And Shall Remain

 

In the following portion of the letter which Paul writes to the Thessalonians he discusses those who remain alive in the present tense.

 

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain* unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain* shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

 

 

More Scripture Indicating Immediate Urgency

 

The New Testament is abundantly filled with references to the immediacy of Christ's return.

 

But the end of all things is at hand:* be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Peter 4:7

 

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days* spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things...

Hebrews 1:1-2

 

In 1 John, the false prophets foretold by Jesus who existed in that time period to give notice of the end times are discussed.

 

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God...

1 John 4:1-3

 

*(italics mine)

 

According to the Bible, Jesus Christ said he would return in the generation in which he lived. He said the sign of the Son of Man would appear in heaven. He said all the tribes of Israel would mourn. He said the tribes would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He said he would send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels were to gather the "elect" from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. All of these things were to have happened in his generation. They didn't happen.

 

Jesus did not return as he said he would. He did not return as his disciples believed and preached that he would. Jesus didn't come in the disciples generation. He didn't come in any generation. The disciples all died. Jesus' promise was broken. The disciples believed and lived a false hope.

 

Jesus didn't come then and he isn't coming in the future. Those who cling to the broken promise and false hope of his return will be just as disappointed as the disciples who died looking in vain for the second coming of their Christ.

 

He isn't coming again.

 

(Note: This isn't mine, I found it on a webpage and copied it to my files)

[Lizard]

 

 

2. Do you hate God or do you just not believe He exists? If you don't believe He exists, then what is the significance of the thee six's?

 

 

 

 

2. The 666 thing. In all my screenames for anything I use "Ramen" in it. The 666 thing just refers to the Bible and the devil. Since this is an Ex Christian website I can remeber 666 easy. It also offends Christians. It means nothing I always include a number in my name. I believe God is a evil character (that was created by men) but people tend to believe he exsist. (SCOTT!) I use ithe 666's for more sattire purposes. God doesn't exsist like I said but I hate the charcter that people worship and try to force there beliefs on me.

Didn't y'all get the memo? Its 616 not 666

Number of the beast devalued..

[roman]

You're right. We ought to expect the return of Jesus any day now. It's a grand tradition stretching back to when good ole Jeezy Chreezy went up into the sky. Okay, so maybe he didn't come back within the apostles' lifetimes like he said he would, but God's timing is not our timing. Glory.

Some of the stuff you are (obliquely) referring to, Ryan, was not in the original work of "Mark." It was added later, by scribes and amateur copyists, to please the organizers of the early church. Then "Matthew" and "Luke" added and changed more.

 

But the biggie here is "Scott"'s favorite sci-fi freak show, Revelations. There were many apocalyptic works at this time in very early xendom...very many of them. This one was picked, believe it or don't, because it was the least crazy one, or so it seemed to the bible-makers. They wanted an apocalyptic work because the people whom they were recruiting loved them, and this one did not have too many disagreements with the early church; what few there were, were re-written or deleted.

 

So say many, many bible scholars, including Bart D. Ehrman (in Misquoting Jesus).

 

Didn't y'all get the memo? Its 616 not 666

Number of the beast devalued..

I'm so sorry you haven't heard the latest. The new Number Of The Beast is 202 (Washington DC area code).

[roman]

Well, let's see, now: all the knowledge in the world is worth absolutely nothing without faith, and Jesus is coming again from the sky. OK. You seem to have altered your position again, my boy.

 

From where I sit, "knowledge" and "faith" don't belong in the same sentence.

 

"Jesus is coming again from the sky" is Second Century crazy-man talk. I'm glad to see that you're talking crazy again, because actually I was starting to feel sorry for you. You sound a lot like a street person, but I guess you aren't.

 

Do you live with your parents? Are they as crazy as you are?

[Everglaze]

I assume that he also believes that Elijah went to Heaven without dying and just ascending into the sky, huh? All because the Bible said so. How relevant to sanity that truly is...har har.

[Taphophilia]

Bart D. Ehrman

[J.S.]

Taylork, He will descend from heaven, as John said, "And I saw heaven opened!". To our view, He will descend from the sky. As far as where heaven is, I'm not sure. It may be just over the clouds, but we are blinded to it. I haven't really studied that, at least not yet.

[Taphophilia]

Taylork, He will descend from heaven, as John said, "And I saw heaven opened!". To our view, He will descend from the sky. As far as where heaven is, I'm not sure. It may be just over the clouds, but we are blinded to it. I haven't really studied that, at least not yet.

 

You didn't read any of my post up there did you?

 

Taph

[KT45]

Taylork, He will descend from heaven, as John said, "And I saw heaven opened!". To our view, He will descend from the sky. As far as where heaven is, I'm not sure. It may be just over the clouds, but we are blinded to it. I haven't really studied that, at least not yet.

Where in the bible does it say we are blind to it? People in the bible saw spirits but couldn't see above the clouds. Now we can see above the clouds. Why hasn't anyone, even a christian seen it?

[Ramen666]

Then it is settled their is no hope even if I was Christian. God's promises were broken and he did not come then and why do people think he is coming now. Everything is clearer than it was I know when I became an athesist that I would still learn. I learn more everyday, things which religion shielded from me. I learned the real truth.Here is the only place people can see what religion has corrupted. All of us are real people with real stories. In the Church we are just shadows that come and go. They don't care about us anymore we are outcasts.

 

 

When in doubt remember we are the minority here. But in the past the majority was not always right. Slavery was ok in the U.S. by the majority (even Christians thought it was ok). But it ended up being wrong. Stick together all of us, Don't let the majority control anyone.

 

All this comes from the Bible itself. Its a fictional story except with a horrible plot. It needs more plot twists like Jesus being gay but he slaughters gay.

[J.S.]

I'm sorry, Taphophilia, I didn't see it. I'll reply now.

 

1. I do believe He is referring to the Transfiguration. If I'm not mistaken, the greek word of see is Horao. This sometimes has the idea to "perceive with spiritual insight. They got a glimse of the glory of Jesus at the Transfiguration.

 

2. It's true that all the Apostles thought Jesus would come in their life time. It's good, and not deception that they thought this.

 

"But that evil servant says in his heart 'My master is delaying in his coming, and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 24:48-51.

 

It's true, Jesus might have come in their life time. They understood this. If He had, and they weren't ready, they would have blown it. This same message goes for the Christians of today. We must continue to watch for Him. The Apostles thought Jesus would come in their life time. If they didn't consider Jesus a liar when they were about to be put to death, and He didn't come, then neither should we?

When Jesus speaks in the Bible about His coming, He clearly states, not even He knows when He will come. It is imminent, and He and the Apostles understood that.

 

Jesus never said His own generation would not pass away. When He said "this" generation, He was speaking of the generation He was talking about. The "blooming of the fig tree", which I believe is Israel becoming a nation in 1948. Many people take "a generation" to mean 40 years. However, there are some who believe it may mean 70 years or so. I don't know, but I will study on it.

 

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not clack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9.

 

Jesus Christ is coming back. It may be years from now, or it may be tomorrow, but He is coming. The Bible states it, and there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts the return of Jesus.

[OnceConvinced]

1. What did you mean when you said the AntiChrist is better than Jesus?

 

 

Maybe you should check out my last post a couple of pages back. I made a claim that the anti christ , going by your claims, is going to be way more successful than Jesus. I also asked you a question too. Maybe you missed it.

[J.S.]

Taylork, He will descend from heaven, as John said, "And I saw heaven opened!". To our view, He will descend from the sky. As far as where heaven is, I'm not sure. It may be just over the clouds, but we are blinded to it. I haven't really studied that, at least not yet.

Where in the bible does it say we are blind to it? People in the bible saw spirits but couldn't see above the clouds. Now we can see above the clouds. Why hasn't anyone, even a christian seen it?

 

I said I didn't know. I stated a possibility, not a Scriptural fact. Some Christians have seen heaven. For instance, Stephan. Stephan saw heaven opened as he was about to die. John the Revelator saw heaven opened in a vision. People today have seen Jesus in visions and dreams, which goes with the prophecy "Your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams" {Acts 2:17}. Some have seen heaven in NDE's. I don't know where heaven is though.

[KT45]

How will everyone see Jesus come from heaven since perspective wise it is impossible?

 

Where is hell?

[J.S.]

1. What did you mean when you said the AntiChrist is better than Jesus?

 

 

Maybe you should check out my last post a couple of pages back. I made a claim that the anti christ ,according to you is going to be way more successful than Jesus. I also asked you a question too. Maybe you missed it.

 

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I did miss it.

 

Jesus gave us reasons why not many people will follow Him.

 

1. "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and borad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14.

 

2. "...and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19.

 

3. "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive." John 5:43.

 

The following of Jesus is smaller because the road to salvation is hard; the world likes the things that the Bible calls sin. Jesus even said, they will follow another, and not Him. The Antichrist is the man of sin {2 Thess. 4:3}. The way of the Antichrist is not difficult concerning sin, because when that time comes, there will really be no to them. Yet, they will still suffer the wrath of God. So, the following of Jesus is smaller because the world loves sin.

 

How will everyone see Jesus come from heaven since perspective wise it is impossible?

 

Where is hell?

 

I think the Bible says Hell is in the "belly of the earth", thought I admit that I'm not sure. It is possible for everyone to see Jesus. By His glory and power, everyone will see Him.

[KT45]

I think the Bible says Hell is in the "belly of the earth", thought I admit that I'm not sure. It is possible for everyone to see Jesus. By His glory and power, everyone will see Him.

The belly of the earth is solid mass. So hell isn't there.

 

How will everyone see him? Will there be a bunch of him so each corner of the world can see him? Or will he be really, really, really big? Even then not everyone can see him. I mean everyone can't even see the sun and the same time. If he is the size of a normal man then the probablity of everyone on earth seeing him is incredibly low.

[J.S.]

His coming will be supernatural, not natural like the sun. The whole sky over the whole earth will open up and they will all see the Son of Man coming with power and great glory.

[Legion]

J.S. (or Scott as you prefer) how will the sky "open up"?

 

I've noticed that you have new signiture. It's in the form of a syllogism, right? I think that your logic is sound but your premises are mistaken.

[KT45]

Can't you see this is an old primative idea. He's coming from the sky? Everyone on earth will see him at the same time? Hell is in the middle of the earth? People thought he was coming from the clouds but we've been above the clouds. People don't think the world is flat anymore so everyone can't see Jesus appear at the same time. Hell can't be in the middle of the planet because it is solid mass. Why can't you see these are just a bunch of primative concepts?!!!

[Ramen666]

Is J.S. Scott? Did I miss something anyone?

[J.S.]

What do you mean how?. The Bible just says that heaven will open and Jesus will be there on a white horse.

 

My signature isn't really there to be any type of argument. I just thought it was rather funny.

 

Is J.S. Scott? Did I miss something anyone?

 

Yeah, that's me.

[Legion]

I am at a loss as to how to approach you any longer Scott. I suppose that you will believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority and I will not.

[J.S.]

I am at a loss as to how to approach you any longer Scott. I suppose that you will believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority and I will not.

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[KT45]

It's really pointless to debate anymore

1. If we show him a contradiction he says, "we haven't studied enough because god's word can't contradict itself

2. If we say that this isn't possible he says, "god is supernatural he can do anything

3. Everything else he either skips the post, dismiss without information to back his claim, or quotes the bible

 

I give up