My People Are Destroyed By Lack Of Knowledge

[Guest Donjared]

As far as I'm concerned, he has no fucking idea what he's talking about in regards to other peoples belief systems. He accuses Dawkins of setting up a straw-man yet he himself is guilty of the same thing.

 

I would be curious to hear why he has no fucking idea what he's talking about with regards to other people's belief systems. Does he claim to understand Atheism and then give a false definition? Does he claim Humanists are just Hare Krishnas with hair and no singing talent? Is his analysis of other's beliefs unscientific?

 

Reading that pissed me off so much, man.

 

Now ya got me all giddy. I just can't wait to read that book. God curse Amazon for being so God-damned slow in sending my God-affirming book. Just kidding I got nothing but love for Amazon.

[Guest Donjared]

Here's a good review from Absolute Scientist podcasts of the Language of God: http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?ht...nce/manning.mp3 (10.8 MB)

 

Thanks for the link Han Solo

 

It seems that the reviewer liked Collins book and considers it a worthwhile read. After hearing his review however, I'm not sure that I will. He claims that Collins tries to prove the existence of a god with the Moral Law argument. What a bore. This argument has been discussed since Socrates. I was hoping for some original arguments from a scientific mind. I, unlike my buddy Asimov (Foundation trilogy rules! ) want to believe there is a God. Something within tells me there is. I can't think of a better argument for the Source of all things than God. However my experience testifies to me that there isn't. That's why I keep hoping for something that is never going to happen. I want somebody way smarter than me to prove there is a God. I don't want to be evangelized. I went forward at a Greg Laurie revival so I've been properly evangelized. I hope Collins has eschewed this format in favor of a scientific presentation of the facts. We'll see when I finally get my god-damned, god-affirming book from Amazon. Love ya Amazon

[Legion]

Scott, if you are really interested in preserving your faith, then in my opinion you should get the hell out of here. I'm not trying to imply that you are unwelcome. I know though that you are out numbered here and in my opinion you are also out gunned. The longer you remain, the more difficult it will become for you in my estimation.

[Scott]

I thought that was funny. "Get the hell out of here...I'm not trying to imply you are unwelcome"

 

Anyway, what will become more difficult? Keeping my faith? Well, if that is the case, I'm in deep crap considering the times ahead.

[KT45]

I thought that was funny. "Get the hell out of here...I'm not trying to imply you are unwelcome"

 

Anyway, what will become more difficult? Keeping my faith? Well, if that is the case, I'm in deep crap considering the times ahead.

If you lost faith do you think your life would somehow become worse? How was life before you got saved? If you lost your faith what unanswered questions would you have?

[Legion]

I thought that was funny. "Get the hell out of here...I'm not trying to imply you are unwelcome"

 

Anyway, what will become more difficult? Keeping my faith? Well, if that is the case, I'm in deep crap considering the times ahead.

 

I don't think that I am contradicting myself. As far as I'm concerned you are welcome here. I think though that IF you wish to preserve your faith as it is THEN you would be wise to leave.

[Scott]

I know what you mean, Legion, I just found it to be amusing.

 

Taylork, there would be nothing to live for. I know this sounds like I'm just making up an imaginary friend to give my life meaning, but nothing could be farth from the truth. Not to mention all the voids God has filled in my life.

[Antlerman]

Taylork, there would be nothing to live for. I know this sounds like I'm just making up an imaginary friend to give my life meaning, but nothing could be farth from the truth. Not to mention all the voids God has filled in my life.[/b]

Scott, I sincerely want to know how you think we live life without a god in it? Do you think we feel life is not worth living? How do we claim to be far happier people now?

[Everglaze]

I know what you mean, Legion, I just found it to be amusing.

 

Taylork, there would be nothing to live for. I know this sounds like I'm just making up an imaginary friend to give my life meaning, but nothing could be farth from the truth. Not to mention all the voids God has filled in my life.

 

 

Nothing to live for? That's only you thinking that there's nothing to live for, because you rely so heavily on your non-existent being. Think about it, you truly are wasting your life away, when you could be out there finding things that interest you as a PERSON. It seems pretty detrimental when a person cannot find anything to live for except some being from a book. It's called irresponsibility and lack of control over your own life. Do you listen to yourself when you're praying? In reality, you're just talking to yourself to make yourself feel better.

[mwc]

I know what you mean, Legion, I just found it to be amusing.

 

Taylork, there would be nothing to live for. I know this sounds like I'm just making up an imaginary friend to give my life meaning, but nothing could be farth from the truth. Not to mention all the voids God has filled in my life.

It's called being a teenager. Those "voids" are normal. Fill them with life experiences.

 

mwc

[KT45]

Taylork, there would be nothing to live for. I know this sounds like I'm just making up an imaginary friend to give my life meaning, but nothing could be farth from the truth. Not to mention all the voids God has filled in my life.

Curious. Before you became a christian, did you always feel life wasn't worth living?

[Ouroboros]

Scott, the strange thing is that I value my life and feel more alive, and more reasons to live now when I don't believe in a God. The way it is now is that this life is it, the only life I get, and I want to make it the best life I can get. So following fantasies doesn't make your life better, and it doesn't give you more reasons to live, but somehow it does the opposite. If the reason to live now is to go to heaven later, then it's no strong reason to live now. If the reason to live now is because there is nothing else after, then you have more reasons to live the best now. I find Atheists value their life and *others* more than the people who think that they can judge, condemn and send people to eternal torture for disagreeing with them.

[Kryten]

Scott,

Bring your pastor to me. I will complete his training.

 

More importantly, here is something you should read and think about.

<from the Why Won't God Heal Amputees website>

 

Understanding Delusion

 

Here are several examples that can help you to understand how religion works in our world today.

 

Example 1

 

Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

 

There is a man who lives at the North Pole.

He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.

During the year, he and the elves build toys.

Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.

He puts the sack in his sleigh.

He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.

He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.

He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.

He leaves toys for the children of the household.

He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.

He does this all around the world in one night.

Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

 

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

 

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

 

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

 

"But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

 

"How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

 

"How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

 

"Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

 

"How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

 

"How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

 

"Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

 

Now let me show you another example...

 

 

Example 2

 

Imagine that I tell you the following story:

 

I was in my room one night.

Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.

Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.

He tells me an amazing story.

He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.

On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.

These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.

Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.

Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.

Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.

I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.

And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!

I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.

Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds delusional, doesn't it?

You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, "Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?" The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, but we have not found it yet. "Not one city? Not one chariot wheel? Not one helmet?" you ask. No, we haven't found a single bit of evidence, but it is out there somewhere. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

 

Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations -- having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

 

What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

 

If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

 

 

Example 3

 

Imagine that I tell you this story:

 

A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.

A very bright flash of light appeared.

A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.

Then the man asked, "What should I read?"

The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before."

The man ran home to his wife.

While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.

At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.

Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.

Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.

The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.

The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.

[source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002]

What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary.

But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind.

 

Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary -- as imaginary as flying reindeer.

 

If you are a Christian, please take a moment right now to look back at the Mormon and Muslim stories. Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly -- we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" (see Chapter 27) and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that.

 

An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional.

[Crunk Bishop]

yep, we want the preacher like the Sodomites wanted Lot's lil' visitors! come out and play!

 

 

 

but seriously.... maybe somebody ought to challenge Scott to the arena, so he doen't have to keep up with 9 conversations at once.

[mwc]

Scott didn't have to keep jumping from topic to topic to topic. He made that choice on his own.

 

But, yes Scott, do invite "the Pastor" here. Hell, invite the entire congregation to stop by. The more the merrier.

 

mwc

[Piprus]

Crunk, that's part of the problem. Scott doesn't respond to a lot of the posts directed to him. When he does, he either comes back with some cryptic remark or a standard piece of fundieprattle.

 

I've said it on other threads...I wonder about this guy.

 

Who is this mysterious "pastor"? He's said it's not his church pastor, that he's looking for a new church...is this pastor perhaps in reality his psychotherapist?

 

He claims before his "salvation" he was in to "satanism", but couldn't tell us what that meant to him. Yet at the same time, he told us he had studied the bible for "a long time", without any specifics. Yet we think he is but a teenager. In one thread he said he became "psychotic". He also claimed to have had a "vision" of jesus, as did his mother. Such hallucinations and delusions speak of a disordered mind.

 

I caught him in at least one outright lie.

 

I'm still not clear, but without trying to be too clinical, there's evidence of a real disordered personality here...paranoid, perhaps?

 

Now he finally comes back with this "there would be nothing to live for", presumably without his all-encompassing world of religious ecstasy, and remarks about "deep crap, considering the times ahead". This doesn't sound healthy.

 

Ah well, just my observations, probably nothing.

[Everglaze]

It's all the psychological syndromes of Christianity. It makes a person think this way and then the other way as if fighting with one's own mind. What a torture.

[Legion]

It's all the psychological syndromes of Christianity. It makes a person think this way and then the other way as if fighting with one's own mind. What a torture.

 

Exactly Everglaze! To top it all off, after they have turned you against yourself, they say if you are divided against yourself then you cannot stand.

 

Manipulation, plain and simple.

[Scott]

If Christianity is torture, then why do Christians seem to be at peace?

[Checkmate]

If Christianity is torture, then why do Christians seem to be at peace?

What Christians are you talking about? The one's who come to this site in obvious insecurity about their faith? How about the one's praying for pain relief, or a new job, or more money? Or maybe the ones panic stricken about the end times? No, maybe you refer to the ones who are desperately seeking to take over the world because they fear what the heathens are doing?

 

Are THESE the "at peace" Christians you refer to? Or have I missed some?

[Dhampir]

then why do Christians seem to be at peace?

You don't seem to be very much at peace.

I think the operating word there is Seem. Again, you forget that many of us used to be devout believers, and one thing damn near all of us have in common is an increase in that commodity following our departure.

[Everglaze]

If Christianity is torture, then why do Christians seem to be at peace?

 

Simple, they're deeply brainwashed. It's what I'd like to call the Dr. Jeckyll & Mr. Hyde syndrome. Talk about identity crisis.

 

They created a whole other side of them that thinks they're at peace, because of some comforting "God." In reality, the "human side" is having other thoughts to return to what's natural. You just refuse to let that side return by repressing yourself and convincing yourself that you are at peace. How inhuman.

[Piprus]

If Christianity is torture, then why do Christians seem to be at peace?

 

Frankly, I don't see a whole lot of "peace" in the christian community, especially among fundamentalists. There is a considerable degree of suicide, divorce, alcoholism, child and spouse abuse, mental health problems, and criminal behavior. Where is all that "peace"?

 

Conversely, I think you've been here long enough to observe that there are many unbelievers on this site that are very much at peace.

 

Not all christians are at peace any more than all owners of sneakers are athletes.

[Scott]

Sadly, you're right. I've only seen two people in person who are truly at peace with God. My mother and my Pastor. And I don't doubt there will be others who depart from the Faith. The Bible says in the last days men will depart from the Faith. Sin and deceit will be rampant.

[Everglaze]

Sin and deceit will be rampant.

 

Yeah, apparently and it comes in the guise of Christianity. I commend those that leave such deceit.