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A Little Help


Bodhi-in-Training
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I am currently in a debate of sorts with a fundy. Now they don't like to stay on topic (imagine!), but I'm a bit stuck as I really don't know much about the whole Isreal thing in relation to Bible prophecy.

 

They wrote:

I just wondered if you had ever considered the Jews' place in history and Bible prophecy. Remarkable. I would dare say irrefutable.

 

The Jesus-like beings in other religions, by the way, make perfect sense to me. The enemy of our souls (I know, you don't believe in him either) knew all of the prophecies concerning the Messiah well beforehand, and set up many counterfeits beforehand to confuse people. He also has been trying to exterminate the Jews throughout history, because the Messiah was to come from that line (and did), and because God has a special place for the Jew in his currently unfolding plan.

 

 

 

I'm lost. LOL

 

Any help would be appreciated.

:thanks:

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I think I worked out a decent response..

 

Prophecy in the Bible is muddy at best. Every claim made is vague enough that most of them could be interpreted to exist at many points throughout history. This is common to every prophecy that people hold up, from the bible to Nostradamus to miss Cleo. If you unequivocally believe in the bible's prophecy of 'end times' then you would start designing your world to that end. Stories only have as much credence as we give them with our minds.

 

:shrug: We shall see.

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i think you've answered your own question well.

 

the Jews were being more or less threatened (by the Philistines, then Assyria, then Egypt, then Babylon, then Greece, then Rome) during the writing of all of the so-called "prophecies," so that's why the theme is recurring.

 

i would think about turning the question on them this way... if the Bible is so smart about Jews and the end times... then why didn't the Bible anticipate Islam and Muslims in the prophetic scheme?

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I am currently in a debate of sorts with a fundy. Now they don't like to stay on topic (imagine!), but I'm a bit stuck as I really don't know much about the whole Isreal thing in relation to Bible prophecy.

 

They wrote:

I just wondered if you had ever considered the Jews' place in history and Bible prophecy. Remarkable. I would dare say irrefutable.

 

The Jesus-like beings in other religions, by the way, make perfect sense to me. The enemy of our souls (I know, you don't believe in him either) knew all of the prophecies concerning the Messiah well beforehand, and set up many counterfeits beforehand to confuse people. He also has been trying to exterminate the Jews throughout history, because the Messiah was to come from that line (and did), and because God has a special place for the Jew in his currently unfolding plan.

 

 

 

I'm lost. LOL

 

Any help would be appreciated.

:thanks:

 

Hi, I can help I think. I was a dispensationalist (the word which describes the fundamentalist's interpretation of prophecy). They say that Israel being a nation today is "proof" that the bible is true, since the bible says God would "regather" the jews from the world into the land. The problem is that such a concept was believed long before anything actually happened. Also, the problem is that the people who believe such a thing are the very people who influenced the governments of the world for establishing an Israeli homeland. In other words, it is a "self-fulfilling" prophecy. For example, since Jesus said "the poor you will always have with you", it means that fundamentalists who don't want Jesus to be "wrong" will do nothing to stop poverty in the world, since it would make Jesus' words false. That is why many of them don't care about improving the lives of non-Americans/non-christians. They have to keep them poor in order for Jesus to be telling the truth. That is because it is self-fulfilling. Almost everything the bible mentions about "prophecy" such as wars, famines, diseases, etc is primarily caused by believers who have influence on the world scene (such as the pope saying it is a sin to use condoms, thus creating more children with AIDS who starve to death).

 

Unfortunately, no matter how ridiculous the statement, they will continue to believe it, as long as Israel is around. They say "God" will supernaturally protect Israel if they are ever attacked. I find it comical, since Israel has the third largest nuclear arsenal out of any other nation on earth. I guess the biblegod needs "help" to protect Israel. Can you imagine what they might think if Israel becomes disbanded and all the jews are forced to emigrate out of Israel to the U.S. or some other nation? All those idiotic prophecy teachers would probably make an excuse for it.

 

Newspaper eschatology is how modern prophecy teachers make their money. They write the newest books based upon current events, and of course, they make false predictions which they later try to justify or say "nobody is perfect". I believe the prophecy teachers of today are like the gospel writers of long ago. They scan through "prophecies" as they are making up a story and simply by saying they were fulfilled by "Jesus" or "jews", it somehow makes it true. Of course, they never specify it. It is usually : not a prophecy, not a prophecy about what they are talking about, or it is so vague that it could be interpreted several ways.

 

The real reason fundies want jews back in Israel is simple. It is a plan for extermination. If you don't believe me, read Zechariah 13. Fundies believe it is yet to happen, but will before Jesus returns. In other words, according to Zechariah 13, 2/3 of jews living in the land will die a horrible death (similar to the holocaust). These christians are more than happy to ship them off to Israel, to "fulfill" prophecy faster, so Jesus comes faster. It is an eery parallel to nazism (disguised as empathy). If you BELIEVE someone is seriously in danger (such as believing 2/3 of jews will perish in Israel in the future), and you not only DON'T try to get them out of danger, but you support their emigration to this future holocaust, you are guilty of premeditated murder (even if it doesn't happen). Premeditation doesn't mean it necessarily happens. It simply means your real intention was to kill them beforehand.

 

I am not surprised at any of it, because Christians are generally what I refer to as "spiritual nazis". Be "born again" of "pure blood" (the blood of Jesus) or burn in hell. Join us or die. You know the story. Just look at the neo-cons of today. They are wanna be nazis who replaced "jews" with "liberals". They want to kill us for believing in the Constitution and for not being like them. They say we are enemies of the state and we hate America. Try something for me. Next time you hear them say "liberals hate....." just replace "liberal" with "jew" and see if it is not just like Nazi Germany propoganda. It is almost identical of the pre-WW2 treatment of jews. They don't start off by killing jews. They start out with hate speech disguised as Christian doctrine. Then the next logical step after demonizing liberals and non-christians, is to change the laws of the land (the Constitution) in order to secure those non-christians don't have the same rights as Christians (such as holding office, working in certain fields, etc). The next step is to create separate schools which separate children of christians from children of non-christians/liberals. They are attempting to do this very thing. The next step is to create an entire generation of bloodthirsty religious/bigoted fanatics. They are also doing this. As you can see, it will probably result in a similar end if we do nothing to change it.

 

Well, I hope my tidbit is of assistance to you.

 

Matt

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  • 4 weeks later...

i think you've answered your own question well.

 

the Jews were being more or less threatened (by the Philistines, then Assyria, then Egypt, then Babylon, then Greece, then Rome) during the writing of all of the so-called "prophecies," so that's why the theme is recurring.

 

i would think about turning the question on them this way... if the Bible is so smart about Jews and the end times... then why didn't the Bible anticipate Islam and Muslims in the prophetic scheme?

 

A response I got...

 

"Why do you think that the Bible didn't. First of all, they are considered Gentiles - anyone who is not a direct descendant of Abraham and Sarah is a Gentile. However, the Arab people are the descendants of Abraham's son, Ishmael, who he had with Hagar (Sarah's Egyptian maidservant). Sarah got impatient waiting for the promised child, so she gave Hagar to Abraham. It was a custom that if a wife could not have a child, her maidservant could have one for her. Ishmael was the result of that union. But Hagar rubbed it in Sarah's face, Sarah wasn't so great either; needless to say things didn't go so well, so she and Ishmael ended up being sent away. But an angel appeared to Hagar when she was pregnant and told her, "You are now with child and you will have a son. Yo shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Gen. 16:11-12 Then in Gen. 25:18, it says that "His (Ishmael's) descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur. And they lived in hostililty toward all their brothers." Looking at old maps, these places are all in the Middle East. That is why there is so much hatred between the Jews and Arabs.

 

Not sure what this has to do with end of times prophecy though?

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