Near Death Experiences

[Piprus]

medically we've pretty much accepted that NDE's are actually a dream state, induced by a lack of oxygen, glucose, or toxicity to the brain. The phenomenom doesn't occur in all cases, and it can be variable, from pleasant to terrifying, just like a nightmare.

 

Piprus, is there also a medical explanation of this sort why some of us get "visions" or "messages" that seem to come from outside our own brains?

 

In those cases where I don't bring on "religious experiences" at will, it tends to happen when I am severely distressed emotionally. Strange things can also happen when I am experiencing euphoria. This would seem to indicate it is most likely to happen to me when in extreme emotional states. So I'm curious where it comes from or what causes it.

 

The "messages" from outside my own brain also tend to come at opportune times. For example, I am seriously concerned about a certain problem in my life that needs to be addressed and I haven't a clue how to go about it then suddenly this brilliant idea hits me from seemingly outside my own brain. But other times it's just a random idea that hits me and works ever so wonderfully. But not all such "bright ideas" are so bright when examined in the light of day.

 

I just don't know what to make of all this. Not that it's a serious problem. Nor do I believe it is evidence of God as I once did. It's just something that happens.

 

Ruby, I'm not a psychologist, but it sounds to me like an issue of interpretation, and how your brain is "reading" and transmitting your thinking. Like the old saying goes, "things aren't always what they seem to be". So what actually seems to be coming at you from outside yourself is being interpreted that way for whatever reason, but it's your own mind at work. So, if you've been pondering how to solve a problem you're confronted with, a solution may come to you. That is normal. If it appears to come from outside yourself, then it looks to me that you are appropriately questioning how that is happening. Where that becomes a danger, is when you hear "voices" telling you to act in ways that you instinctively know are bizarre or inappropriate. You may want to consider consulting a psychologist for further insight. Extreme states of emotion can do weird things to us, and different people react in different ways. I hope that's helpful...

 

Jackson Queens wrote:

There is a God. There is an afterlife. I am proof.

 

Well, if that's your interpretation. Your experience as you relate it (and I'm really glad you survived) is more suggestive of the dream state scenario to me.

[All Gods Fail]

This happens to me all the time, too! As far as I'm concerned, this type of thing is proof positive that there's a God. And sometimes, like, I'll close all my windows before I leave the house, and when I come home they're open and the curtains are blowing in the wind. What's that about if not God.

 

God opens your windows? Is he saying you need some fresh air?

[Antlerman]

This happens to me all the time, too! As far as I'm concerned, this type of thing is proof positive that there's a God. And sometimes, like, I'll close all my windows before I leave the house, and when I come home they're open and the curtains are blowing in the wind. What's that about if not God.

Welcome to the site As far as the windows being open, I can almost guarentee you are leaving them open and are having a brain-fart about it. Think in terms of deja vu. It's a misfiring of the brain that makes things seem out of time, but our response to it is a perception that these events have already happened. Your response is to see your absent mindedness as something outside of you doing it.

 

 

Also I'm constantly losing my keys, but I am very sharp in every other area of my life. I never forget phone numbers, names or faces. But I always forget where I put my keys. I have decided after many years of prayer that this is probably an act of God, to humble me as I attempt to rush about making my plans happen.

Not an act of God whatsover. It's called being a human being. You have strong areas of your mind and weak areas. Think of those who can barely tie their own shoes, but are proficient in math.

 

I think NDEs are real because I had one when I was a 9. My dad and I were canoing and we came upon a tight spot in the river that was choked by a deadfall. We tried to maneuver around it but the current was too strong and the boat hit the trees sideways putting us perpendicular to the currents, which quickly capsized us and pulled me under the deadfall. I remember frantically clutching at any branch in my reach, and seeing in slow motion my father's hand reaching for me through the water, his silhouette limned in light. Then the light behind him grew ever brighter until blindingly white, and the next thing I could see I was slowly rising from the deadfall watching my father pull me out of the water and set me in the righted canoe.

 

I had a feeling of bliss and perfect peace as I watched my father give me cpr on a nearby bank until I felt a hand on my shoulder and the light grew bright again and the next thing I knew I was coughing up water, looking up at my crying father.

 

There is a God. There is an afterlife. I am proof.

Again, nothing here to indicate anything outside brain function. I became an atheist. Is this proof there is no God? How is your experience proof of God?

[Piprus]

Jackson Queens:

Also I'm constantly losing my keys, but I am very sharp in every other area of my life. I never forget phone numbers, names or faces. But I always forget where I put my keys. I have decided after many years of prayer that this is probably an act of God, to humble me as I attempt to rush about making my plans happen.

 

If the supposed creator of the universe has to humble you for something so petty as misplacing your keys, one of you has a huge problem...

[Guest Jackson Queens]

Jackson Queens:

Also I'm constantly losing my keys, but I am very sharp in every other area of my life. I never forget phone numbers, names or faces. But I always forget where I put my keys. I have decided after many years of prayer that this is probably an act of God, to humble me as I attempt to rush about making my plans happen.

 

If the supposed creator of the universe has to humble you for something so petty as misplacing your keys, one of you has a huge problem...

 

 

Heh, well you could choose to look at it like that. I'm pretty sure we all have a huge problem. We're all going to die someday. But the key thing has been going on for awhile. When I said that I forget where I put my keys, I meant I always have a strong memory of where I left them and they turn up elsewhere. It's such a problem that I constantly remind myself where I put them and they still turn up elsewhere. I put up a hook and I use it religiously and still the keys will turn up in a drawer or something. I have chosen to see this as a small reminder from God that even though I think I have it all together, I really don't. It gives me some peace.

 

You might be right about the windows. It's only happened a few times, but it was so surreal and spooky. I think God does little things like that sometimes to remind us He's here and we're not alone. Some people say it's ghosts, but if there really are things like ghosts I'm inclined to say they are really demons in disguise. There's so much going on in the spiritual realm that we don't understand. We only catch glimpses of it for a few moments and then do everything to convince ourselves that we didn't really see what we saw, or we misinterpretted it. I'm trying to not have an "explain it away" attitude. It's the mystery that keeps us together when the path is a little bit strange.

 

As for my NDE being a dream, it was unlike any dream I've ever had. Far more real and tactile than my usual sleeping dreams. I didn't mention is before but after the incident my Mom told us that she had had a bed feeling right around the time of tha accident and had been praying for both of us when it happened. I'm pretty sure the hand I felt on my shoulder was God's/Jesus' hand. My life was forever changed by that day, so even though doubts have crept in over the years, I give God the benefit of the doubt.

 

Again, nothing here to indicate anything outside brain function. I became an atheist. Is this proof there is no God? How is your experience proof of God?

 

I don't follow you. You have your reasons for being an atheist, and I suppose that one of them is that you've never had an experience like mine. While your lack of experience with the supernatural couldn't possibly be proof of anything, my positive experience with something that I see has only a supernatural explanation could be considered a type of evidence, while perhaps not absolute proof (it's proof enough for me). You can hardly expect me to believe that you have any "evidence" that there is no God, can you?

[Antlerman]

Heh, well you could choose to look at it like that. I'm pretty sure we all have a huge problem. We're all going to die someday. But the key thing has been going on for awhile. When I said that I forget where I put my keys, I meant I always have a strong memory of where I left them and they turn up elsewhere. It's such a problem that I constantly remind myself where I put them and they still turn up elsewhere. I put up a hook and I use it religiously and still the keys will turn up in a drawer or something. I have chosen to see this as a small reminder from God that even though I think I have it all together, I really don't. It gives me some peace.

I don't mean to sound too sarcastic here, but are you sure this isn't the works of mischievous leprechauns? It really is the same thought process.

 

You might be right about the windows. It's only happened a few times, but it was so surreal and spooky. I think God does little things like that sometimes to remind us He's here and we're not alone. Some people say it's ghosts, but if there really are things like ghosts I'm inclined to say they are really demons in disguise. There's so much going on in the spiritual realm that we don't understand. We only catch glimpses of it for a few moments and then do everything to convince ourselves that we didn't really see what we saw, or we misinterpretted it. I'm trying to not have an "explain it away" attitude. It's the mystery that keeps us together when the path is a little bit strange.

I think you're filling in the blanks with some absolutely unsupported supertition of a mythical spirit world to explain why your brain misfires from time to time, like the rest of humanity.

 

As for my NDE being a dream, it was unlike any dream I've ever had. Far more real and tactile than my usual sleeping dreams. I didn't mention is before but after the incident my Mom told us that she had had a bed feeling right around the time of tha accident and had been praying for both of us when it happened. I'm pretty sure the hand I felt on my shoulder was God's/Jesus' hand. My life was forever changed by that day, so even though doubts have crept in over the years, I give God the benefit of the doubt.

Of course it was more real. It was a traumatic experience. But it was just that, the symptoms of a traumatic experience, not ooobbbaaaa joooobbaaaa spirit myths.

 

I don't follow you. You have your reasons for being an atheist, and I suppose that one of them is that you've never had an experience like mine. While your lack of experience with the supernatural couldn't possibly be proof of anything, my positive experience with something that I see has only a supernatural explanation could be considered a type of evidence, while perhaps not absolute proof (it's proof enough for me). You can hardly expect me to believe that you have any "evidence" that there is no God, can you?

Wrong. I had an existential experience like you. My point was your experience no more proves the existence of God, then my becoming an atheist proves God does not exist. It was using a logic example. It was to make a point about the logic you were using, that it's no more valid for me to make such a claim as it is for you to do so on the same grounds.

 

Again, I DID have an experience I used to believe was supernatural. I now understand it was about me. Nothing outside me.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

I don't mean to sound too sarcastic here, but are you sure this isn't the works of mischievous leprechauns? It really is the same thought process.

 

Leprechaun's are obvious silliness. A creator is not. In fatc, that this world had a creator is obvious to most of the world. I daresay the same isn't true for leprechauns.

 

think you're filling in the blanks with some absolutely unsupported supertition of a mythical spirit world to explain why your brain misfires from time to time, like the rest of humanity

 

Perhaps. Perhaps you are hiding from the unknown under your Star Wars sheets. We'll all know someday.

 

Of course it was more real. It was a traumatic experience. But it was just that, the symptoms of a traumatic experience, not ooobbbaaaa joooobbaaaa spirit myths.

 

Somehow, your making light of mysticism by parodying some ancient tribal language feels a bit like a racial slur. I am part Lakota Sioux and talk like that gives me a sick feeling. Please try your best to take me seriously.

 

Wrong. I had an existential experience like you. My point was your experience no more proves the existence of God, then my becoming an atheist proves God does not exist. It was using a logic example. It was to make a point about the logic you were using, that it's no more valid for me to make such a claim as it is for you to do so on the same grounds.

 

Again, I DID have an experience I used to believe was supernatural. I now understand it was about me. Nothing outside me.

 

May I enquire as to the details of your experience?

[Antlerman]

I don't mean to sound too sarcastic here, but are you sure this isn't the works of mischievous leprechauns? It really is the same thought process.

 

Leprechaun's are obvious silliness. A creator is not. In fatc, that this world had a creator is obvious to most of the world. I daresay the same isn't true for leprechauns.

From my perspective, it is not much different. It's treating mythology as real reality.

 

think you're filling in the blanks with some absolutely unsupported supertition of a mythical spirit world to explain why your brain misfires from time to time, like the rest of humanity

 

Perhaps. Perhaps you are hiding from the unknown under your Star Wars sheets. We'll all know someday.

Care to elaborate on that? I hardly think rational thought is the fantasy world of a child with Star Wars sheets. Star Wars is also a mythology like Jesus and company.

 

Of course it was more real. It was a traumatic experience. But it was just that, the symptoms of a traumatic experience, not ooobbbaaaa joooobbaaaa spirit myths.

 

Somehow, your making light of mysticism by parodying some ancient tribal language feels a bit like a racial slur. I am part Lakota Sioux and talk like that gives me a sick feeling. Please try your best to take me seriously.

I sincerely apologize for my outburst. It is very atypical of me to be disrespectful of cultures. I was drawng from the language of my culture without given it proper consideration. It was inappropiate and I apologize to you for this.

 

Wrong. I had an existential experience like you. My point was your experience no more proves the existence of God, then my becoming an atheist proves God does not exist. It was using a logic example. It was to make a point about the logic you were using, that it's no more valid for me to make such a claim as it is for you to do so on the same grounds.

 

Again, I DID have an experience I used to believe was supernatural. I now understand it was about me. Nothing outside me.

 

May I enquire as to the details of your experience?

You may. Can you let me respond later. I'm pressed for time at the moment.

 

Peace.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

Take your time. And apology accepted.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

From my perspective, it is not much different. It's treating mythology as real reality.

 

You're assuming that everything that contains mythological elements is pure mythology. Let's not forget that all mythologies are attempts at explainations of the unknown. I don't believe that anyone has ever seen a Leprechaun. The stories and the settings for such creatures are obvious fantasy. But everyday in this world, even now that we know so much about the mechanical nature of reality, people have mystical experiences that are more valuable to them than anything you would call "truth". I stop short at the precipice of proclaiming them all mentally defective, and turn instead toward the light of humility and seeking understanding.

 

Care to elaborate on that? I hardly think rational thought is the fantasy world of a child with Star Wars sheets. Star Wars is also a mythology like Jesus and company

 

Nearly as popular too, no? Star Wars, while possibly providing an outlet for the socially inept, doesn't have the power to transform a life, renew a heart and bring peace to the soul, IMHE.

[KT45]

Nearly as popular too, no? Star Wars, while possibly providing an outlet for the socially inept, doesn't have the power to transform a life, renew a heart and bring peace to the soul, IMHE.

Star trek does. i mean look at trekkies. They seem to enjoy life and have peace of mind.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

Nearly as popular too, no? Star Wars, while possibly providing an outlet for the socially inept, doesn't have the power to transform a life, renew a heart and bring peace to the soul, IMHE.

Star trek does. i mean look at trekkies. They seem to enjoy life and have peace of mind.

 

He seems happy just to be outdoors. Imagine how happy he'd be if he had a relationship with God.

[Dhampir]

He seems happy just to be outdoors. Imagine how happy he'd be if he had a relationship with God.

Y'know, If I were a christian, I'd have the wherewithal to avoid statements like this in these situations.

[KT45]

I don't believe that anyone has ever seen a Leprechaun. The stories and the settings for such creatures are obvious fantasy.

http://www.irelandseye.com/leprechaun/reportsight.htm

 

He seems happy just to be outdoors. Imagine how happy he'd be if he had a relationship with God.

Why need god when you got the wisdom and logic of Spock

[Antlerman]

From my perspective, it is not much different. It's treating mythology as real reality.

 

You're assuming that everything that contains mythological elements is pure mythology. Let's not forget that all mythologies are attempts at explainations of the unknown. I don't believe that anyone has ever seen a Leprechaun. The stories and the settings for such creatures are obvious fantasy. But everyday in this world, even now that we know so much about the mechanical nature of reality, people have mystical experiences that are more valuable to them than anything you would call "truth". I stop short at the precipice of proclaiming them all mentally defective, and turn instead toward the light of humility and seeking understanding.

Shifting gears to a more serious tone now... mythology is as you say a language to describe the world. I accept that as true. Mythology also provides a vehicle for the human heart to aspire to heights of possiblity. A purely scientific culture does not speak to the imagination of the human heart, or "the spirit" to use another word. I agree with you.

 

However, you have to understand that the background experience I and many coming out of a literalist/fundamentalist background in Christiantiy object to is that mythology denies scientific reality in how they approach it. They offer endless excuses and rationalizations that defy human reason, that offend my spirit. Rather the approaching mythology as a way to communicate human truths, those truths that speak to how we live, they usurp reason with them and call them absolute fact! You may or may not understand or appreciate how negative an experience that has been to many of us. I hope at some point we will have a meeting of minds and see each other on this understanding.

 

Thank you for accepting my apology.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

He seems happy just to be outdoors. Imagine how happy he'd be if he had a relationship with God.

Y'know, If I were a christian, I'd have the wherewithal to avoid statements like this in these situations.

 

Whatever do you mean?

[mwc]

Some people say it's ghosts, but if there really are things like ghosts I'm inclined to say they are really demons in disguise. There's so much going on in the spiritual realm that we don't understand.

Reminds me of a story about a guy that had "ghosts." They did all sorts of things around his home too. Upon further investigation it turns out this poor guy had a condition where he'd sort of "zone out" and in this state he'd move things around. Later on, with no memory of any of this, he'd have evidence of his ghostly visitors. Fortunately for him the local ghost hunters got him the help he needed (although they didn't bag any ghosts).

 

Along the same lines, there's a form of epilepsy that lets a person see "visions." Many people feel that this is what old St. Paul had. Maybe you have a touch of this since emotional stress can bring about such episodes?

 

Or it's "god."

 

mwc

[Guest Jackson Queens]

However, you have to understand that the background experience I and many coming out of a literalist/fundamentalist background in Christiantiy object to is that mythology denies scientific reality in how they approach it.

 

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements. There is security in what you can know, I know. But there is a peace in the mystery that is indescribable. None of us is the least bit secure. We're all mortal as a worm. We're all afraid to look into the darkness without any screen and search for the light like a newborn child. The people who don't deny this, and rather revel in it like a shower of ecstacy, are the people who inspire me to live like I have a spirit, like I am more than meat - but a beautiful creation whose purpose is to live as though his life is a wonderful gift.

 

They offer endless excuses and rationalizations that defy human reason, that offend my spirit.

 

Many things defy human reason. Those things are the most beautiful things I know of.

 

Rather the approaching mythology as a way to communicate human truths, those truths that speak to how we live, they usurp reason with them and call them absolute fact! You may or may not understand or appreciate how negative an experience that has been to many of us. I hope at some point we will have a meeting of minds and see each other on this understanding.

 

Whenever you have an unshakable picture of how the world "must" be then anything that might contradict that can produce alot of anguish in your mind. Instead of deciding how everything must be, I choose to let the revelation flow. And flow it does, unstoppably and deliciously.

 

If for our minds to meet I must take what I consider a few steps backward then to me it isn't worth it. If you can read those words and not take offense, I'll appreciate it. I can only say it that way, because for me to somehow relent on this in anyway would be to compromise my spirit. I'm sure you can understand.

[KT45]

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements.

You do as well. Anything outside your christian mythology you reject.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements.

You do as well. Anything outside your christian mythology you reject.

 

How do you know that?

[KT45]

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements.

You do as well. Anything outside your christian mythology you reject.

 

How do you know that?

You've already rejected leprechans. You reject ghost and say they are demon, a mythological creature in your religion. I doubt you accept Allah as truth, Ganesh as truth, jinns as truth etc. You have a bias opinion of mythology.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements.

You do as well. Anything outside your christian mythology you reject.

 

How do you know that?

You've already rejected leprechans. You reject ghost and say they are demon, a mythological creature in your religion. I doubt you accept Allah as truth, Ganesh as truth, jinns as truth etc. You have a bias opinion of mythology.

 

You assume too much. I think there are elements of truth in all mythologies. No, I don't believe that leprechaun's really existed, but I do believe they were the best explanation someone could come up with for some unknown. However, some myths aren't as easy to destroy. However fantastical some of the elements of the gospel story might be, Jesus lived and He changed the world with his words.

[KT45]

You assume too much. I think there are elements of truth in all mythologies. No, I don't believe that leprechaun's really existed, but I do believe they were the best explanation someone could come up with for some unknown. However, some myths aren't as easy to destroy. However fantastical some of the elements of the gospel story might be, Jesus lived and He changed the world with his words.

humor me. Tell me a mythos you believe in that has absolutely nothing to do with your religion. Also just because you find truth in mythologies doesn't mean you don't have biases toward them. I find truth in your christian mythos in that it is people just trying to explain the world through their eyes. But I don't accept it in the least.

[Piprus]

Jackson Heights:

If for our minds to meet I must take what I consider a few steps backward then to me it isn't worth it. If you can read those words and not take offense, I'll appreciate it. I can only say it that way, because for me to somehow relent on this in anyway would be to compromise my spirit. I'm sure you can understand.

If what you are saying is that to dialogue on this site you believe you would have to talk down to a lower level than what you perceive yourself to be on, then by all means...don't. Doesn't bother me in the least. I'll go on with my own reality based view, minus all the spiritual elements, including gods. That's quite sufficient.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

I doubt you accept Allah as truth

 

I believe that God spoke to Muhammed, but when he became corrupted and so did God's message to him.

 

Ganesh as truth

 

An elephant headed diety? No. But I believ that God spoke to people and eventually the revelation took on fantastical elements, pretty much like every time God speaks to the world through a particularly receptive conduit.

 

jinns as truth etc

 

Terminology is irrelevant. I believe in spirits, so I believe in jinns. Jinns are just one human interpretation of their interaction with the spirit world.

 

You have a bias opinion of mythology.

 

Perhaps, but my bias doesn't seem nearly as strong as yours, does it?

 

Jackson Heights:

If for our minds to meet I must take what I consider a few steps backward then to me it isn't worth it. If you can read those words and not take offense, I'll appreciate it. I can only say it that way, because for me to somehow relent on this in anyway would be to compromise my spirit. I'm sure you can understand.

If what you are saying is that to dialogue on this site you believe you would have to talk down to a lower level than what you perceive yourself to be on, then by all means...don't. Doesn't bother me in the least. I'll go on with my own reality based view, minus all the spiritual elements, including gods. That's quite sufficient.

 

 

Enjoy yourself.