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All other members can comment and discuss regarding the "Discussion between Bruce and Amy Marie" thread.

 

Amy Marie and myself will not post on this thread, until the "Discussion" is ended.

 

Please keep it cvil in here, or daFatman might get irritated and hurt us all.

 

 

Bruce

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I don't even know why you're bothering, Bruce.

 

I can't see why Amy would think that she could possibly attract people to her religion of people who want to actually do Jesus, but I've seen weirder things.

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I can't help but continue to be perplexed by Amy Marie's tunnel vision. In her first post she says,

I am hoping to convince if only a few that Jesus loves them. I think that some here have been hurt by christians or life in general. To be hurt especially by christians would be very unfortunate and sad.

Despite how many times she has been told by us that NONE of us left Christianity predicated upon emotional hurts, she won't quit beating this dead horse. She can't seem to grasp the concept that NO ONE leaves their religion for emotional reasons.

 

While it may be true that a bad experience may have awakened someone to the danger or falsehood of the religion, like a bucket of cold water thrown in the face, it was THINKING and RATIONAL thought that did the trick.

 

Anyone who has EVER left a religion for emotional hurts soon found themselves back in that religion or another religion in less than a month. So I daresay that Amy is wasting her time in looking for converts. Emotional cripples don't exist on this site.

 

She's trying to convince people who don't believe in Jesus, that Jesus loves them? Talk about tilting at windmills! I don't know whether or not to pity her, or laugh at her. What a shame.

 

Oh well. Have fun, Bruce. You're a better man than I am for taking on this mission. I'll be watching with interest.

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Bruce's question:

 

Amy Marie,

 

Can you explain why faith in Jesus seems reasonable to you? I know I can explain why faith in Jesus seems unreasonable to me and won't mind elaborating.

 

Bruce

 

 

AmyMarie's answer:

 

 

The words of Jesus. There are no sayings like the sayings of Jesus, especially in the Gospel of John. I know of no other major religion figure or prophet who makes the claims that Jesus made.

 

Some facts for Amy to consider - And Amy it took me about 5 minutes to find this on the web. (Sigh) I'm sure you'll have some rationalization - but a fact is a fact....

 

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme084.htm

 

Christianity. Bible, John 14.6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."

 

Hinduism. Srimad Bhagavatam 11.12

I [Krishna] am the goal of the wise man, and I am the way. I am his prosperity. I am his heaven. There is nothing dearer to him than I.

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Amy,

 

First let me ask you to stop quoting posts wholesale, there is really no need as you and I are the only people in this discussion and it bogs down the server.

Glory hallelujah! Finally someone besides me has complained about this! I begged Amy weeks ago to quit doing this, but (of course) she ignored me. Let's see if she ignores Bruce.

 

Actually LOTS of people are doing this and I hate it. Is there some way to slap people around, and get their attention to STOP doing this? (Maybe I need to Rant about it. My temper tantrums usually get attention. :vent: )

 

Okay. Enough about my pet peeve.

 

Bruce, you're doing a fabulous job with Amy. She won't allow ONE WORD to destroy her fantasy (after all, yours is "worldly wisdom"), but it's great anyway. Maybe someone else can benefit.

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I'm loving reading the discussion between Amy and Bruce.

 

Had a moment of wishing someone had taken me through my beliefs in such a reasoned and systematic way years ago. Would have saved truck loads of trouble, (although I try to approach life without holding regrets)

 

Thought I'd try to convey my view of the discussion in a manner in which Amy might relate to ...Amy - Bruce has laid such a gift at your feet, hope you accept it.

 

An aside -(Mr Grinch, do you have any idea how tempting it was to quote you in full and simply attach the word Ditto.

 

But I guess my warped sense of humour is actually outweighed by the intensisty of irritation when I find myself scrolling down pages of pointlessly quoted posts, or else I would have gone ahead with it! ;)

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AmyMarie's answer:

 

 

The words of Jesus. There are no sayings like the sayings of Jesus, especially in the Gospel of John. I know of no other major religion figure or prophet who makes the claims that Jesus made.

<snip>

 

Hello Amy...

 

I had a few more minutes today to do a search - it took me just another 5 minutes to find the following....

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

 

Comparison of some teachings of Horus and Jesus:

 

I am" statements

 

Horus
- "I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...Iam the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven."

Jesus
- "I am the light of the world....I am the way, the truth and the life."

 

Horus
- "I am Horus, the Prince of Eternity."

Jesus
- "Before Abraham was, I am"

 

Horus
- "I am the possessor of bread in Anu. I have bread in heaven with Ra."

Jesus
- "I am the living bread that came down from heaven."

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Amy's last two answers have helped me see two things ... (1) how come I stayed a christian for so long and (2) why its so difficult to have a useful discussion with certain kinds of christians.

 

Amy, its as though you think that if you can score a point against what Bruce is saying that will rule out a point already scored against you - as if the difference between whether Paul said 'even lies are OK if they get people talking about Jesus' or 'I lied to get people talking about Jesus', is the same as the difference between 'the story in the Bible about the talking snake and original sin is actual fact and the basis on which Jesus came down to earth to save us' and 'the story in Bible about a talking snake is clearly not part of any reality and is a myth'. Can't you see there are mountains and molehills of difference?

 

Soooo, Amy agrees that the chatty snake with the wicked pick up lines is unlikely to be true, but if she can show that Bruce said Paul lied, and then show that Paul didn't, that will count for one untruth each and then their positions will be equally true, so then all she needs is one more truth .... and the balance will be tipped in her favour ....

 

Amy, If you can recognise that the talking snake bit didn't happen, why are you hanging onto the bits of the tale that followed - desperately hoping they will be true (other than because you are romantically attached to the idea of your personal relationship with Jesus that is)

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Addendum: Amy, you still have failed to provide why you think the Christian belief system is reasonable. I would really like for you to explain to me why you think it is reasonable to believe that all humanity is condemned for original sin instigated by a talking snake; that god fathered a child with a human woman and this child was also the same entity as his father; that this god/man died to pay himself for the original sin of mankind which was instigated by a talking snake; that he rose from the dead and lives in heaven (wherever that is); and that if I just believe all this, I will go to heaven with him and not have to pay for the sin instigated by the talking snake. I really want to understand why you think this is a reasonable thing for a person living in the 21st century to take seriously.

 

Amen -

 

Amy I'm Christian, and I'm waiting for your reply to this addendum on pins and needles.

 

Because I wonder the same thing.

 

See.... Amy .... the very real - hardcore reality - is that there are many Christians who do not read the Bible (and particularly the story of Jesus) that way.

 

You have yourself convinced that there is only one legitimate way to read the Bible and the story of Jesus. From your point of view, should that way be untrue than the whole Bible is untrue, your whole belief system then falls apart.

 

You have given yourself black and white options, Amy..... Given the complexity of the world we live in - you've given yourself options that will only cause you pain and conflict. :shrug:

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Guest waxwings

Amy Marie's side of the discussion appears to fall into two categories:

 

1) off topic Biblical minutia and

2) acquiescence to Bruce's points, but a refusal to change her conclusions as a result

 

It's the second of these two responses that endlessly fascinate me. Clearly Amy recognizes that she is wrong about many, many things, but she inevitably ends her posts with some statement to the effect of 'but I don't care, I'll believe what I want anyway.'

 

If Amy's aim is to believe what she wants, regardless of how demonstrably wrong it is, what is the point of discussing anything with her? Why is she even participating? Why, on a related note, does she feel the need to cloud the issue by going on long off topic rants about Paul's sincerity or lack thereof?

 

I think it would be far more productive if Bruce were to address this deep seated emotional refusal to change her conclusions if her premises are flawed. Perhaps Amy can tell us whether or not she has any willingness at all to change her mind. Both parties in this discussion should not only agree that the superior argument will prevail, but that they are willing to change their own beliefs based on the strength of the winning argument. Until this intractable refusal to change is addressed, it appears that Amy will continue to run in circles.

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:thanks::woohoo:

Well spoken, waxwings! It is highly apparent that you are my "Happy Side" alter ego! I've been saying precisely the same things about Amy, but not NEARLY as politely. (I have "anger" and "profanity" issues, as everyone keeps reminding me.) My hat is off to you.

 

Oh, and Welcome to the Forums! :woohoo:

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Guest waxwings

:thanks::woohoo:

Well spoken, waxwings! It is highly apparent that you are my "Happy Side" alter ego! I've been saying precisely the same things about Amy, but not NEARLY as politely. (I have "anger" and "profanity" issues, as everyone keeps reminding me.) My hat is off to you.

 

Oh, and Welcome to the Forums! :woohoo:

 

Thanks. Rest assured, my patience for stupidity is probably as limited as yours. Just ask Bruce. I'm sure it won't be long before I start dropping a few 'f' bombs myself.

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Amy you said, “As always I stress if Christ is not risen then all the claims of Jesus mean nothing and I too will become an atheist. So far no one has offered me proof that He has not risen so I continue to believe.” Has anyone shown you that Mithra, Horus or Osiris did not rise from the dead and do you therefore also believe those claims as well? If not, why not and what makes them any different from your belief in Jesus’ resurrection, besides “just because”?

 

I wish Amy would take a stab more of the questions Bruce has asked like the one above. I remember getting these types of questions when I still believed and just glossing over them... quickly changing the subject because I just couldn't muster a reasonable sounding answer. It would, in fact, embarass me that I had no answer to what seemingly should have been softball questions.

 

Hell, even after 4 years of Bible College and 2 years of seminary I had never heard of Mithra, Horus or Osiris. It wasn't until I began questioning my faith because of the obvious contradictions in the bible and because I never saw one prayer answered that couldn't have been chalked up to coincidence, that I read anything about any other religion or gods at all - outside of Greek mythology, which we all KNEW was bogus.... right? LOL

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Yep, just as I predicted. Amy Marie has just stated the painfully obvious. It doesn't matter what Bruce (or anyone else) says. She's sticking to her faith in Jesus, because it FEELS like the right thing for her to do. The Jesus Christ Lucky Charm has worked so far for this voodoo priestess and she isn't willing to abandon her fetish.

 

No matter what evidence or arguments we present, she's going to ignore it all and BELIEVE what her heart tells her. In her world prayer works and miracles happen and God is behind it all. You will NEVER get her to even consider that she is deceived or in error, so any further discussion with her is pointless.

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I think that you are absolutely correct Mr. Grinch. In my opinion Amy believes because she wants to believe and haha there is nothing that you or I or anyone else can do about it except for Amy. If someone wants to live in denial then that is entirely their prerogative.

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Okay I know I don't post very much but I find this debate compelling. It is fascinating to me that Christians always seem to want to get into side topics that have nothing to do with the questions being asked. Amy has described herself as simple so perhaps I can clear up this Paul problem for her.

 

Amy:

 

It doesn't matter one bit what Paul believed, or what Paul thought he was telling the truth about. Many people who were once against one thing are now passionately devoted to it. This board is a fantastic example of such people. It is populated by many who at some point in their lives were passionate about your belief, and now they are not. Twenty years ago I myself was devout, and now I am not. It happens. No matter how strongly one person believes something, no matter what position they held about it before, no matter how honest or dishonest that person is, IT has NO bearing on how factual that thing is. Belief does not equal reality. Basing your belief on someone else's belief is not particularly rational. The argument that there was a stunning conversion could be used to support just about any belief system from Scientology to political parties. It just isn't relevant. You will come off a lot better if you simply answer the very plain questions Bruce is asking instead of letting yourself get distracted.

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Bruce -

 

Nice discussion with Amy. I still don't really understand why she's on Ex-C, but I'm convinced she's basically a decent person with some fairly odd world-views. And your responses were very thoughtful and respectful to her (and vice-versa).

 

Of course, I share the same outlook as you in regards to gods/spirits, so obviously I disagree with Amy. I guess if it makes her happy and she doesn't force her beliefs on others there's no harm. And she certainly has the right to believe as she wishes.

 

But still, even benign belief it muddies the waters of reason and helps reinforce fantasy over reality. But freedom gives us the freedom to be wrong as well as right. :shrug:

 

Anyway, thanx for an interesting discussion and making me think the whole issue over. :thanks:

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