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So We All Love God...


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Okay...So everyone on Earth loves God.

We all worship him.

We're all True Christians.

 

So now what?

 

If we all devoted our time to God, as he requests, there would be little to no progress. We'd still be in the stone age. Because all that matters is loving him. Progress doesn't matter, ambition doesn't matter (and is often a sin), creativity really doesn't matter either, except if it's towards his glory.

 

So where would we be? What good does all this get us. Because if you take our base desires away, then the world goes nowhere if all we're doing is worshipping God. Sure maybe we'll make food & hunt for food. That's a given.

 

But what other purpose is there if you're devoting your whole life to God and he's not telling you to do anything except procreate & worship him?

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Other than building some really fantastic churches I think you've just about summed it up (I think you've summed up heaven if you take away the churches, food and sex).

 

So, work, worship and death. Praise him.

 

mwc

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Okay...So everyone on Earth loves God.

We all worship him.

We're all True Christians.

 

So now what?

 

If we all devoted our time to God, as he requests, there would be little to no progress. We'd still be in the stone age. Because all that matters is loving him. Progress doesn't matter, ambition doesn't matter (and is often a sin), creativity really doesn't matter either, except if it's towards his glory.

 

So where would we be? What good does all this get us. Because if you take our base desires away, then the world goes nowhere if all we're doing is worshipping God. Sure maybe we'll make food & hunt for food. That's a given.

 

But what other purpose is there if you're devoting your whole life to God and he's not telling you to do anything except procreate & worship him?

Oh, but of course God is not here on earth with us, so we are left to have disagreements with all the other 6 billion believers about what is really, the True Truth. I imagine wars all over the place, each community killing the other heretics in the True name of God. I imagine the development of better technologies to kill the other heretics. I see nations, and industry and progress all coming back to kill the unbelievers.

 

Dreamers, nothing but dreamers these Christians are. :wicked:

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Okay...So everyone on Earth loves God.

We all worship him.

We're all True Christians.

 

So now what?

 

If we all devoted our time to God, as he requests, there would be little to no progress. We'd still be in the stone age. Because all that matters is loving him. Progress doesn't matter, ambition doesn't matter (and is often a sin), creativity really doesn't matter either, except if it's towards his glory.

 

So where would we be? What good does all this get us. Because if you take our base desires away, then the world goes nowhere if all we're doing is worshipping God. Sure maybe we'll make food & hunt for food. That's a given.

 

But what other purpose is there if you're devoting your whole life to God and he's not telling you to do anything except procreate & worship him?

 

 

What the hell is progress, and what/where is it progressing to? Isn't progress as much a matter of faith as heaven? In fact if I recall properly the idea of progress is a late 19th century Christian idea called postmillennialism where in man would progress via science and religion towards a golden age after which Jesus would come back. The WWI put paid to the idea of progress, leading to premeillennialism.

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Guest Quickened Pariah

In the Bible, worshipping God is not necessarily reduced to mere singing and shouting, "Alleleuia!" I, personally, do not even enjoy that kind of worship at all. In fact, worshipping God is, in fact, a life long commitment, one where all Christians inevitably fail. All humans should worship God with their every breath, that much is true. However, bringing glory to God is a form, perhaps even the only form, of genuine worship. That being said, God can and is glorified in a great deal of ways. For example, I believe science is a wonderful way to glorify God. God has given the human race an entire universe to explore and understand; science is very noble and incredibly interesting, in my opinion. As such, God is glorified when His children use it to attempt to understand the universe He has given to them. This also goes with a great deal of other important subjects: math, language, philosophy, theology, and even agriculture just to name a few. God is pleased when humans use their brains, in humility, to understand both Himself and His creations.

 

With all of this begin said, I do not beieve progress would halt, in fact, Christianity has proven to be a very helpful religion over the millenia, increasing literacy rates, as well as establishing hospitals in the past. However, I am also aware of the attrocities which have been committed in the name of the Christian God, and I am very apologetic that they occurred. I believe the world would prosper into a wonderful golden age, if Jesus' commandments were faithfully obeyed by all people at all times. Of course, this will not happen this side of Heaven until Jesus Himself establishes His Own government. Once that, in my opinion, occurs, those remaining shall, in fact, increase in their understanding of all known current subjects, through study, however, and not through some silly notion we will have all knowledge "downloaded" into our brains, which is apparently a very common notion in the Western world. Thus, I would say to both non-Christians and Christians alike to open their minds to a different and more inclusive view of worship, one which is not defined by mere singing 24/7 or merely "loving" God all the live long day in a similar manner. Instead, I would ask both of them to see the possibility that truly worshipping God would be the greatest catalyst to human progress, not the end of it.

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.... All humans should worship God with their every breath, that much is true. ...

 

Why?

 

There are a great many reasons. The Christian response is generally because He is deserving of it, being our Creator, Father, Savior, etc. However, I also know such reasoning is not really persuasive to the non-Christian group. Regardless, I would then respond that since worshipping God is the ultimate fulfillment of human purpose, then it would result in the greatest happiness for all those involved in worshiping with a genuine desire to worship. Nonetheless, it is a general rule of thumb, both for Christians and non-Christians, that our desire are not always so selfless or, for lack of a better term, simple. Instead, humans are beings with a wide range of desires, most, if not all, bred out of selfishness, which I believe is the single greatest source of unhappiness, or unfulfillment. So, I would say, in you would like a man-centered reason, worshipping God would result in the greatest happiness a human being can feel, if all human selfishness were obliterated.

 

For a very good book, I hear, on this subject, read John Piper's, Desiring God. I myself have not read it, but it has high praise in both laymen and sholarly levels. You can even read it online for free, and I plan on doing so very soon.

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God is the ultimate fulfillment of human purpose, then it would result in the greatest happiness for all those involved in worshiping with a genuine desire to worship.

I remember as a christian that I could only worship for so long. After about two hours of praising, lifting my hands and being filled with the holy spirit I was looking at my watch and waiting to leave. Can anyone really see themselves doing this for eternity?
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God is the ultimate fulfillment of human purpose, then it would result in the greatest happiness for all those involved in worshiping with a genuine desire to worship.

I remember as a christian that I could only worship for so long. After about two ours of praising, lifting my hands and being filled with the holy spirit I was looking at my watch and waiting to leave. Can anyone really see themselves doing this for eternity?

 

Well, in my earlier post, I stated that worshipping is not, Biblically, reserved to mere singing and sermon, although it does include that. Glorifying God is worshiping God, and God is glorified, and by extrapolation worshipped, when humans, of the perfect sort, simply breathe, think, and act. Sports, for example, when practiced with the correct perception, are also a means to worship and glorify God, since human intelligence and wisdom, which derives itself from God, helped to create such things. Art, as well, is a means of human creativity, given to humanity by God. God is glorified, and worshipped, when we use the attributes He gave us in humility and in adorations. These can include logic, creativity, physical prowess, strategy, and even thought. God is glorified both by the big things, like supernovae, black holes, galaxies, and the little things like quantum mechanics, the mechanizations of the cell, and even the thoughts and acts of humans. Since a great deal of human acts and thoughts can bring glory to God, these are also means of worshipping God, so true worship of God is far from boring, it will eventually, in the Christian worldview, be the way of life, and far from boring.

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Art, as well, is a means of human creativity, given to humanity by God. God is glorified

Interesting. Question, in order to glorify god do I have to limit my creativity in my art or can a draw, paint, sing whatever I want in order to express myself.

 

Sports, for example, when practiced with the correct perception, are also a means to worship and glorify God,
Great, I like doing things like martial arts, boxing, muay thai, yoga and other things. These things are tied to other religions and violence. Are these things wrong or do they still glorify god.
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.... All humans should worship God with their every breath, that much is true. ...

 

Why?

... So, I would say, in you would like a man-centered reason, worshipping God would result in the greatest happiness a human being can feel, if all human selfishness were obliterated ...

 

You would say that. I wouldn't.

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Well, in my earlier post, I stated that worshipping is not, Biblically, reserved to mere singing and sermon, although it does include that. Glorifying God is worshiping God, and God is glorified, and by extrapolation worshipped, when humans, of the perfect sort, simply breathe, think, and act. Sports, for example, when practiced with the correct perception, are also a means to worship and glorify God, since human intelligence and wisdom, which derives itself from God, helped to create such things. Art, as well, is a means of human creativity, given to humanity by God. God is glorified, and worshipped, when we use the attributes He gave us in humility and in adorations. These can include logic, creativity, physical prowess, strategy, and even thought. God is glorified both by the big things, like supernovae, black holes, galaxies, and the little things like quantum mechanics, the mechanizations of the cell, and even the thoughts and acts of humans. Since a great deal of human acts and thoughts can bring glory to God, these are also means of worshipping God, so true worship of God is far from boring, it will eventually, in the Christian worldview, be the way of life, and far from boring.

Well this is fascinating. What a refreshing new look at a utopian society from the typical Christian dictatorship scenario that we are exposed to without end. What you are describing almost sounds very humanistic to me. We worship God by living our lives! I'm sure what your saying is not that silly garbage of turning exercise like Yoga into some fool thing they sell now called something like Worshipsize (you get the drift). What I see you saying is that by living life to the fullest, in a harmonious society that respects each other, ourselves, and the land, we are paying honor to God. This can easily be understood to be honoring life itself, or Life with a capital L if we wish to make it the highest ideal of human purpose.

 

Sounds very utopian in a very humanist way. Not bad. I also envision that docrines and theology would be rather loosely understood and not dogmatic? If this is your ideal, you have my respects far more than most of the theocratically based relgious dictatorship I hear from the fundamentalist's with the coming King of Israel.

 

Thanks for a refreshing breather from the pack.

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Guest Quickened Pariah

Art, as well, is a means of human creativity, given to humanity by God. God is glorified

Interesting. Question, in order to glorify god do I have to limit my creativity in my art or can a draw, paint, sing whatever I want in order to express myself.

 

Sports, for example, when practiced with the correct perception, are also a means to worship and glorify God,
Great, I like doing things like martial arts, boxing, muay thai, yoga and other things. These things are tied to other religions and violence. Are these things wrong or do they still glorify god.

 

Well, more than likely, in a truly Christian and perfect society, you could paint whatever you desire, since those desires would be reflective of God's moral and ethical standards. However, although certain art, such as anything erotic or unwholesome in Christian morals, should not, in my own opinion, be painted or what have you. With that said, in a truly Christian society, such kinds of unwholesome art will not be painted, because a Christian will not desire to "create" such things.

 

As for your second question, I do not believe the kinds of acts or practices you have decribed is inherently pagan or against God. For example, baptism was used by pagan religions long before Christianity came into being. So, in those kinds of cases, I believe the purpose of what you are using determines if it is right or wrong. For example, baptism is good when used for the purpose God has given it. However, if baptism, whether used in pagan practices or not, is practiced without any respect to its God-given purpose, it would be wrong and evil. Baptism is a far cry from boxing, of course, but I believe you can get the point. It is the purpose behind your action which makes it evil or good, not necessarily the action itself.

 

In a rather extreme example, take killing a human being. If it is in protection of a loved one, I would say killng the intruder or mugger or what have you, would be a good thing, if taken at general value. Whereas killing a human being in vengeance or cold blood is always wrong, because it's murder. God is really a God of the human heart, and He judges based upon the condition and intent of the heart, and not necessarily by the actions committed by the heart, although that is certainly indicative of the condition one's heart is in.

 

So, to surmise, I would say the practices you have described, regardless of the pagan origins or relgions which brought it about, would be good to practice, if done with a God-honoring attitude. I hope that helps.

 

Art, as well, is a means of human creativity, given to humanity by God. God is glorified

Interesting. Question, in order to glorify god do I have to limit my creativity in my art or can a draw, paint, sing whatever I want in order to express myself.

 

Sports, for example, when practiced with the correct perception, are also a means to worship and glorify God,
Great, I like doing things like martial arts, boxing, muay thai, yoga and other things. These things are tied to other religions and violence. Are these things wrong or do they still glorify god.

 

Well, more than likely, in a truly Christian and perfect society, you could paint whatever you desire, since those desires would be reflective of God's moral and ethical standards. However, although certain art, such as anything erotic or unwholesome in Christian morals, should not, in my own opinion, be painted or what have you. With that said, in a truly Christian society, such kinds of unwholesome art will not be painted, because a Christian will not desire to "create" such things.

 

As for your second question, I do not believe the kinds of acts or practices you have decribed is inherently pagan or against God. For example, baptism was used by pagan religions long before Christianity came into being. So, in those kinds of cases, I believe the purpose of what you are using determines if it is right or wrong. For example, baptism is good when used for the purpose God has given it. However, if baptism, whether used in pagan practices or not, is practiced without any respect to its God-given purpose, it would be wrong and evil. Baptism is a far cry from boxing, of course, but I believe you can get the point. It is the purpose behind your action which makes it evil or good, not necessarily the action itself.

 

In a rather extreme example, take killing a human being. If it is in protection of a loved one, I would say killng the intruder or mugger or what have you, would be a good thing, if taken at general value. Whereas killing a human being in vengeance or cold blood is always wrong, because it's murder. God is really a God of the human heart, and He judges based upon the condition and intent of the heart, and not necessarily by the actions committed by the heart, although that is certainly indicative of the condition one's heart is in.

 

So, to surmise, I would say the practices you have described, regardless of the pagan origins or relgions which brought it about, would be good to practice, if done with a God-honoring attitude and intent. I hope this helps answer your question.

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Well, in my earlier post, I stated that worshipping is not, Biblically, reserved to mere singing and sermon, although it does include that. Glorifying God is worshiping God, and God is glorified, and by extrapolation worshipped, when humans, of the perfect sort, simply breathe, think, and act. Sports, for example, when practiced with the correct perception, are also a means to worship and glorify God, since human intelligence and wisdom, which derives itself from God, helped to create such things. Art, as well, is a means of human creativity, given to humanity by God. God is glorified, and worshipped, when we use the attributes He gave us in humility and in adorations. These can include logic, creativity, physical prowess, strategy, and even thought. God is glorified both by the big things, like supernovae, black holes, galaxies, and the little things like quantum mechanics, the mechanizations of the cell, and even the thoughts and acts of humans. Since a great deal of human acts and thoughts can bring glory to God, these are also means of worshipping God, so true worship of God is far from boring, it will eventually, in the Christian worldview, be the way of life, and far from boring.

Well this is fascinating. What a refreshing new look at a utopian society from the typical Christian dictatorship scenario that we are exposed to without end. What you are describing almost sounds very humanistic to me. We worship God by living our lives! I'm sure what your saying is not that silly garbage of turning exercise like Yoga into some fool thing they sell now called something like Worshipsize (you get the drift). What I see you saying is that by living life to the fullest, in a harmonious society that respects each other, ourselves, and the land, we are paying honor to God. This can easily be understood to be honoring life itself, or Life with a capital L if we wish to make it the highest ideal of human purpose.

 

Sounds very utopian in a very humanist way. Not bad. I also envision that docrines and theology would be rather loosely understood and not dogmatic? If this is your ideal, you have my respects far more than most of the theocratically based relgious dictatorship I hear from the fundamentalist's with the coming King of Israel.

 

Thanks for a refreshing breather from the pack.

 

I guess I should thanks. I am not generally used to getting compliments from non-Christians! :eek: Anyway, my picture of Heaven and the New Earth is rather humanistic in a sense, since God has changed the desires of humanity from self-serving to God-serving, which means they will also serve their fellow man with loving respect. When a person truly loves God, and no one does fully, they would be humble, serving others ebfore themselves, and helpful when they could, since that is what God commands from humanity. However, this would all be done because they love God fully, which is a very subtle, but meaningful, distinction when they are perceived by the outside world. When a person truly desires God's will over their own, it will make the world a better place, but that is more often than not the case because most people, Christians included, do not desire what God desires, which lead to various problems, both big and small, but all important.

 

As for your last comments, theology will, in fact, be shown to be very incomplete, since God is infinite, there is an infinite amount of information to understand, which is not even close to being complete at the present moment, nor will it ever be close to being complete. As for dogmatism, it will be a thing of the past, since the ignorance of humanity will be seen as very humbling, but aslo as a great gift because there will always be the knowledge that there will always be more to study. So, arrogant assertions based out of ignorance will be a thing of the past, since we will be humbled by the things we don't know, rather than bolstered by the things we do know. Hope this helps...

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Art, as well, is a means of human creativity, given to humanity by God. God is glorified

Interesting. Question, in order to glorify god do I have to limit my creativity in my art or can a draw, paint, sing whatever I want in order to express myself.

 

Sports, for example, when practiced with the correct perception, are also a means to worship and glorify God,
Great, I like doing things like martial arts, boxing, muay thai, yoga and other things. These things are tied to other religions and violence. Are these things wrong or do they still glorify god.

 

Well, more than likely, in a truly Christian and perfect society, you could paint whatever you desire, since those desires would be reflective of God's moral and ethical standards. However, although certain art, such as anything erotic or unwholesome in Christian morals, should not, in my own opinion, be painted or what have you. With that said, in a truly Christian society, such kinds of unwholesome art will not be painted, because a Christian will not desire to "create" such things.

 

As for your second question, I do not believe the kinds of acts or practices you have decribed is inherently pagan or against God. For example, baptism was used by pagan religions long before Christianity came into being. So, in those kinds of cases, I believe the purpose of what you are using determines if it is right or wrong. For example, baptism is good when used for the purpose God has given it. However, if baptism, whether used in pagan practices or not, is practiced without any respect to its God-given purpose, it would be wrong and evil. Baptism is a far cry from boxing, of course, but I believe you can get the point. It is the purpose behind your action which makes it evil or good, not necessarily the action itself.

 

In a rather extreme example, take killing a human being. If it is in protection of a loved one, I would say killng the intruder or mugger or what have you, would be a good thing, if taken at general value. Whereas killing a human being in vengeance or cold blood is always wrong, because it's murder. God is really a God of the human heart, and He judges based upon the condition and intent of the heart, and not necessarily by the actions committed by the heart, although that is certainly indicative of the condition one's heart is in.

 

So, to surmise, I would say the practices you have described, regardless of the pagan origins or relgions which brought it about, would be good to practice, if done with a God-honoring attitude and intent. I hope this helps answer your question.

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However, although certain art, such as anything erotic or unwholesome in Christian morals, should not, in my own opinion, be painted or what have you. With that said, in a truly Christian society, such kinds of unwholesome art will not be painted, because a Christian will not desire to "create" such things.

If you believe god made us, then you believe he made us sexual. Shouldn't we be able to express ourselves sexually. I'm totally agianst restricting artistic expression just because other christians or god would think it would be unpleasant.

aphrodite.jpg

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However, although certain art, such as anything erotic or unwholesome in Christian morals, should not, in my own opinion, be painted or what have you. With that said, in a truly Christian society, such kinds of unwholesome art will not be painted, because a Christian will not desire to "create" such things.

If you believe god made us, then you believe he made us sexual. Shouldn't we be able to express ourselves sexually. I'm totally agianst restricting artistic expression just because other christians or god would think it would be unpleasant.

aphrodite.jpg

 

You raise yet another interesting point. God did make us sexual creatures, but He has reserved this, in a sense protecting it, for those men and women who are joined in holy matrimony. Do not get me wrong, God is the greatest advocate of sex there can possibly be, but that is also why he seeks to protect it by keeping it sacred inside the bounds of matrimony, to be enjoyed by one man and one woman. However, due to the effects of sin in the human heart, our sexual desires have become perverted and distorted, which lead us into a world of problems; adultery, pornography, premarital sex, etc. This is why erotic art and such would be "wrong," because it would potentially lead others into sin. However, sex, in the normal sense, will be extinct, in my opinion, in the coming Christian Kingdom.

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Do not get me wrong, God is the greatest advocate of sex there can possibly be, but that is also why he seeks to protect it by keeping it sacred inside the bounds of matrimony, to be enjoyed by one man and one woman. However, due to the effects of sin in the human heart, our sexual desires have become perverted and distorted, which lead us into a world of problems; adultery, pornography, premarital sex, etc. This is why erotic art and such would be "wrong," because it would potentially lead others into sin.

Wouldn't the Song of Solomon lead others to sin by your logic. If I made a painting of two people having sex I wouldn't know if they are married or not. Therefore it should be fine to have people drawn in any sexual act. But that is beside the point. I should be able to draw whatever I want whether I draw a man and a woman having sex or whether I draw an orgy. It is still me expressing myself. When society limits artistic expression it is wrong. Watch the movie "pleasantville" for a better example. I can't understand why a society would police things like art and expression.

bougpsyc.jpg

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Do not get me wrong, God is the greatest advocate of sex there can possibly be, but that is also why he seeks to protect it by keeping it sacred inside the bounds of matrimony, to be enjoyed by one man and one woman. However, due to the effects of sin in the human heart, our sexual desires have become perverted and distorted, which lead us into a world of problems; adultery, pornography, premarital sex, etc. This is why erotic art and such would be "wrong," because it would potentially lead others into sin.

Wouldn't the Song of Solomon lead others to sin by your logic. If I made a painting of two people having sex I wouldn't know if they are married or not. Therefore it should be fine to have people drawn in any sexual act. But that is beside the point. I should be able to draw whatever I want whether I draw a man and a woman having sex or whether I draw an orgy. It is still me expressing myself. When society limits artistic expression it is wrong. Watch the movie "pleasantville" for a better example. I can't understand why a society would police things like art and expression.

 

I suppose I will admit that erotic art is not necessarily wrong, but I would admit it should be judged on the basis of its purpose. Song of Solomon is a fairly erotic book, and it is God glorifying, so I will concede that erotic art is not always wrong. That being said, it should still be God honoring and glorifying, which is in short supply these days. However, in terms of a perfect, Christian society, ie. New Earth, erotic art will really be nothing of the sort, since there will no longer be sexual attraction, at least in the normal sense. But that is not to say erotic art still won't exist, it just won't be "erotic." Thank you for reminding me of the Song of Solomon and its content.

 

PS. It is very curious to hear an atheist say something is wrong with, as least what appears like, such vehemence. Anyway, thanks again for bringing up Song of Solomon

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...

 

PS. It is very curious to hear an atheist say something is wrong with, as least what appears like, such vehemence. Anyway, thanks again for bringing up Song of Solomon

 

What's "curious" about it?

 

It's just very refreshing to hear an atheist say something is wrong; I haven't read posts from many who actually do. It's, at least in Christian forums, generally rare.

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I suppose I will admit that erotic art is not necessarily wrong, but I would admit it should be judged on the basis of its purpose.

Where would you draw the line? No matter what line you draw there are always ways to push it as long as people have creativity
Song of Solomon is a fairly erotic book, and it is God glorifying, so I will concede that erotic art is not always wrong.
Look at the two pictures I posted. What do you think about those? Would they fit in your christian society?
However, in terms of a perfect, Christian society, ie. New Earth, erotic art will really be nothing of the sort, since there will no longer be sexual attraction, at least in the normal sense.
Why do you assume this? Do you get this from the scripture about no marriage in the afterlife?
But that is not to say erotic art still won't exist, it just won't be "erotic." Thank you for reminding me of the Song of Solomon and its content.
your welcome. There are more christan sexual scriptures in the bible. Look at the book of Esther when she tries to please the king to replace the queen who wouldn't dance for him.

 

PS. It is very curious to hear an atheist say something is wrong with, as least what appears like, such vehemence. Anyway, thanks again for bringing up Song of Solomon

Humans are all passionate whether they are religious or not. All artist, atheist or religious should be passionate about art and artist expression. So no need to be surprised :)
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