Is It Just Me?

[NotBlinded]

I have to quote you Antlerman! Whoa! You're hired! That's a beautiful explaination. Yup, yup. yup!!!!

Amy...sweetheart, maybe you should read again what Antlerman posted.

[monsterfeets]

I just have to say that Amy I respect your vision especially as a fellow artist. (and if you ever want some critiques on your work let me know cause I'd be happy to help, you definately have potential to be even better) And I COMPLETELY understand the feeling of love that you feel from Jesus. Because I've felt it before. The only difference is I don't see it as exclusively coming from Jesus, but from the universe itself in different forms (Gods, Nature, what-have-you)

 

And another thing. What is the worlds definition of beauty? The "world" is not a single entity which shares the same opinion, it's a collection of many different ideas and people and concepts of beauty are all over the place. Just looking at the history of art you see beauty change from culture to culture. The first and most important person who should consider you beautiful is yourself. That's the only one who matters. You have to live as yourself, no one else does

 

I personally enjoy interesting looking people (with interesting personalities) over the classic romantisized, perfectly proportioned beauties. Nobody is perfect and no one ought to be.

 

"Ring the bells that still can ring, forget your perfect offering, there is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in." says Leonard Cohen. And I'd have to agree.

 

I know to most people the whole "Jesus as my husband" thing seems crazy/silly but I am going to go ahead and have to disagree. Because honestly I don't think it's crazy or silly ... because it makes her happy. I mean sure she might be a little delusional (from our perspective) but well, oh hell, I'll just admit it. I've had imaginary boyfriends as long as I can remember It doesnt get in the way of me enjoying real life at all. Its just natural for me as an imaginitive person to have these what I consider muses around me all the time. I couldn't get rid of them if I wanted to XD

 

As much as I dislike the religion of Christianity and disagree with the whole "ur all going to hell omg" thing. I know how it feels to have a "personal relationship" with a deity work on a personal level. I think the only GOOD reason to believe in something is simply because you believe in it. You either do or don't. I mean I can't help believing in monsters they are just too awesome to think they aren't real.

 

(Ok now that I've lost the respect of every thinking person in the world I'll go back to my homework.)

[Celsus]

Chivalry refers to the medieval institution of knighthood and, most especially, the ideals that were (or have become) associated with it. It is usually, for example, associated with ideals of knightly virtues, war against honour, and courtly love.

 

Code of Chvalry:

• Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
  
• Thou shalt defend the Church.
  
• Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
  
• Thou shalt love the country in the which thou wast born.
  
• Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
  
• Thou shalt make war upon the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
  
• Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
  
• Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
  
• Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
  
• Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.
  

Courtly Love:

• Attraction to the lady, usually via eyes/glance
  
• Worship of the lady from afar
  
• Declaration of passionate devotion
  
• Virtuous rejection by the lady
  
• Renewed wooing with oaths of virtue and eternal fealty
  
• Moans of approaching death from unsatisfied desire (and other physical manifestations of lovesickness)
  
• Heroic deeds of valor which win the lady's heart
  
• Consummation of the secret love
  
• Endless adventures and subterfuges avoiding detection
  

Parts of Chivalry are good, like not lying or defending the weak. Some are not so good, like make continual war upon unbelievers or remember your fuedal status.

 

The courtly love part is about (infidelity) also known as adultry. Since most marriages of nobility, even minor nobility were about power politics, not much love was in them. Courtly love was about wooing the wife of another, and boinking her when said husband was off "making war against the infidel incessantly".

 

Funny how freaking reality contrasts with harlequin romance.

 

Bruce

[All Gods Fail]

Which bring me to my next question: What do you think of chivalry?

 

Did you mean being polite to women, or the medieval notion of chivalry?

 

Here's what Mark Twain thought of the latter, in A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court:

 

I not only renewed it, but added to its proportions. I said, name the day, and I would take fifty assistants and stand up AGAINST THE MASSED CHIVALRY OF THE WHOLE EARTH AND DESTROY IT.

 

I was not bluffing this time. I meant what I said; I could do what I promised. There wasn't any way to misunderstand the language of that challenge. Even the dullest of the chivalry perceived that this was a plain case of "put up, or shut up." They were wise and did the latter. In all the next three years they gave me no trouble worth mentioning.

[smellincoffee]

I think by "chilvary", the Yankee (forgot if he had a name) is using it as a collective noun for the knights. He thought he could take on all knights at once, in other words. I don't really see him using it to denounce the actual code of "honor".

[Dhampir]

Yeah... All that, and I'm still hazy on the whole thing. There seems to be some pertinent facts there, but by and large, it looks like one person's opinion. Says metaphors express an is and is not proposition, but what I am missing apparently is what that is in this metaphor. I'm still in the dark unfortunately.

[RedPillAddict]

He cannot sin because he'd never transgress against his own law... or he cannot sin because he made the law, thereby rendering wrong and sin two different things, as well as right and holy?

 

He cannot sin because He would never transgress against His own law.

 

 

 

whoa! wait a second now...

Isnt it a sin to murder?! How many has God murdered? How many did he murder in the flood alone?

Murder is a sin.

God murders.

God is a SINNER.

[Celsus]

Opening doors and the like are manners, not chivalry. Chivalry was a specific thing as I posted, which grew up in the late middle-ages and early renniesance.

 

I do not think "worship of the lady from afar" is even healthy. It is objectifying a woman and it is in fact creepy. Women should be treated as equal human beings, if a man likes her he should tell her. If she is happily married, he should move on. Secondly, women should not play this "damsel" role, but act like equal human beings and use their minds.

 

Declaration of passionate devotion? I am sure this has it's place in the budding of a romantic relationship. But it is more important to show devotion in day to day life, in small ways and big ways, how each person relates to each other.

 

This other stuff, is a make believe crock of shit. It always was, it was a way to boink your friend's wife in a time of arranged marriages.

 

Bruce

[Jeydid]

Well, I think in this day and age manners shouldn't have anything to do with gender. I am female, but if I see an old man standing, I give up my seat. If I see a young father burdened with kids, I open the door for him. It is just good manners.

[Alice]

Courtly Love:

• Attraction to the lady, usually via eyes/glance
  
• Worship of the lady from afar
  
• Declaration of passionate devotion
  
• Virtuous rejection by the lady
  
• Renewed wooing with oaths of virtue and eternal fealty
  
• Moans of approaching death from unsatisfied desire (and other physical manifestations of lovesickness)
  
• Heroic deeds of valor which win the lady's heart
  
• Consummation of the secret love
  
• Endless adventures and subterfuges avoiding detection
  

Parts of Chivalry are good, like not lying or defending the weak. Some are not so good, like make continual war upon unbelievers or remember your fuedal status.

 

The courtly love part is about (infidelity) also known as adultry. Since most marriages of nobility, even minor nobility were about power politics, not much love was in them. Courtly love was about wooing the wife of another, and boinking her when said husband was off "making war against the infidel incessantly".

 

Bruce

 

I thought the whole thing about Courtly Love was it was supposed to stop at the virtuous rejection by the Lady part ... aren't those stories in which the relationship was consummated about individuals breaking the honour code?

 

 

 

Worship of the lady from afar

Declaration of passionate devotion

 

You think these two qualities are rare today? Do you think women are worthy of such worship?

 

AmyMarie,

 

My favourite painting is Holman Hunts 'The Lady of Shallot'. A copy of it hangs on the wall in my bedroom and the room is themed around it. I love many things about the romance of medevial mythology and tales, and the victorian reinterpretation of these themes.

 

In my teens and twenties the idea of living on a pedestal and being worshipped had me swooning. This was a big factor in my choice of marriage partner. I have to tell you that after a while being worshipped is a very tiresome and lonely thing. It was time to grow up.

 

I'm so glad I was eventually able to climb down off that blasted pedestal and start being real. Doesn't mean I don't ever get treated like a princess, or get to play Elizabeth to my own Mr Darcy (another favorite fantasy character of mine),

 

Of course women aren't worthy of 'worship', they are worth a whole lot more than that!

[Antlerman]

When I was a teenager and in my twenties I had the attitude that I could do anything just as good as a guy. "I'll open my own door, thank you. I'll take care of myself." But now I see things differently. I like when men open the door, give you their place in line, give up their seat, tip their hat to you. Do you remember when guys used to take their hat off at the dinner table but so much is laking in manners now a days. Hey, I even liked the days when a gentleman would stand when a lady entered the room.

 

Worship of the lady from afar

Declaration of passionate devotion

 

You think these two qualities are rare today? Do you think women are worthy of such worship?

Amy,

 

You raise an interesting subject about roles of men and women from your generation. I am assuming we're from the same generation, growing as teens in the 70's? It was an interesting time as a male growing up then, awkwardly trying to find the appropriate response towards females, as far as social expectations. There were many mixed messages guys got, being on the heels of huge social awareness being pressed on woman's rights issues and equality. On the one hand, we needed to be mindful we were not patronizing and condescending to women by say, holding the door for them, which carried a very long and negative history of "helping the little woman", yet at the same time there were messages of "how to treat a lady", from the generation above us. All these messages were bleeding through to young men in that generation, and I wasn't even really aware of all of what that was until much later in my life.

 

Here's the odd catch for someone like me, I was given messages not to hold the door open for women, and that act was showing them respect. Consequently that became a habit. If I did open the door, I felt like I was risking offense. Honestly it wasn't until about my 40's when I became aware that it's now OK to be corteous to women in that way without offending them. So for right or wrong, we ALL, without exception, are products of our culture, being taught values and attitudes. As a teen, you just respond to the teachings of the culture and act accordingly. Even as adults, we follow norms unless we for some reason are inspired to stop and analyze that message that is being taught, whether it has validity or not.

 

I think for issues like what you're talking about, and then today with issues of "political correctness", there are periods where it is necessary for society to impose a heightened awareness for the bulk of the population to learn and adjust new values. After this is accomplished, then it settles down from being a "touchy" subject to just normal respectful practice. Things like "political correctness" are a necessary evil. Things normalize eventually with a new feature. We're now learning it's OK to be "nice" without appearing chauvinistic.

 

I think you need to be careful not to mistake notions of "chivalry" with genuine equality. I think you're using the wrong language. It's about finding respectful, and loving equality. That's not going to be found resolved by going backwards to some out-dated, romanticized ideal of a "knight in shining armor." That drags up all sorts of male-dominant inequalities inherent with it, and turns the page backwards on human progress towards true genuine equality.

[Celsus]

Amy Marie,

 

I just get this huge impression that you have created this "perception" of reality that you live in that is based upon your fixation with romanticized mythology. Do you look at "The Once a Future King" as a historical documentary? As Antlerman pointed out and others as well, your art, your words all reflect a picture of the universe that is based upon a "White Knight/Damsel in Distress" paradigm. While I can somewhet understand the attaction this has for a lot of women and some men, the plain fact is that it was never real. I would like to ask if you can even entertain the thought that you have created an alternate reality in your head to deal with the problems of life?

 

Bruce

[NotBlinded]

Yeah... All that, and I'm still hazy on the whole thing. There seems to be some pertinent facts there, but by and large, it looks like one person's opinion. Says metaphors express an is and is not proposition, but what I am missing apparently is what that is in this metaphor. I'm still in the dark unfortunately.

Honestly...I am too. I found something in theosophy that says it goes back to Myrtha and has to do with the lunar cycles.

 

One type of the twins found in the lunar phenomena has been humanised in the story of Jesus and John; these can be traced back to Horus and Sut, who is Aan or Anup, the Egyptian John. These two appear in the Ritual as the "Precursor," and the one who is preferred to him who was first in coming. Speaking in the twin character, the Osirified deceased says, "I am Anup in the day of judgment. I am Horus, the Preferred, on the day of rising." Anup presided over the judgment; so John the Precursor proclaims the judgment; and calls the world to repentance. Jesus comes as the "preferred one" on the day of his rising up out of the waters, when John the Precursor says of Jesus, "After me cometh a man which is become before me!" John's was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Make ye ready the way of the Lord." "I make way," says Horus, "by what Anup (the Precursor) has done for me." The twin lunar characters of John and Jesus can be identified in the gospel where John says of Jesus "He must increase, but I must decrease." So the title of the Akkadian moon-god, Sin, as the increaser of light, is Enu-zu-na, the Lord of waxing. In the Mithraic mysteries the light one of the twins was designated the bridegroom, and in one passage we meet with the bridegroom and the bride, that is the lunar mother of the Twins and Christ as the bridegroom. John personates the dark one; like Sut-Anup, he is not the light itself, and only bears witness to the light. The Christ or Horus was consort to the mother-moon, and the reproducer of himself. John says of him, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom which standeth and heareth him rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice." These three, the bride, bridegroom, and John, are a perfect replica of the lunar Trinity.

 

Imagine that...more Pagan influence.

[white_raven23]

When I was a teenager and in my twenties I had the attitude that I could do anything just as good as a guy. "I'll open my own door, thank you. I'll take care of myself." But now I see things differently. I like when men open the door, give you their place in line, give up their seat, tip their hat to you. Do you remember when guys used to take their hat off at the dinner table but so much is laking in manners now a days. Hey, I even liked the days when a gentleman would stand when a lady entered the room.

 

Ah. So your thinking has been "corrected". The Christian Right would be pleased.

 

Equality means not having your ass kissed by the opposite sex.

Worship of the lady from afar

Declaration of passionate devotion

 

That's called STALKING.

You think these two qualities are rare today? Do you think women are worthy of such worship?

No. Women are human. Do you worship other humans? Oh...wait....scratch that.....YES YOU do.

[Alice]

Awww shucks folks. Aren't there no true romantics here? Can't we celebrate romanticism just a little? Don't you ever sit down and write a romantic poem to your significant other or do something crazy for her/him? Of course life can't be like an adventure, action movie all the time. Gee, but we shouldn't throw out the creative, spontanious side of us, should we? I mean it would be nice if femininity was thought of as something sacred and not just, how quickly can I get her to bed?" That's what I meant by "worship from afar."

 

 

Amy, I regard myself as a hopeless romantic. (Not sure I know what constitutes a 'true' romantic or not - sounds a bit like that whole 'true christian' debate ). I romanticise things nearly all the time. I'm always rewriting history and applying a little romantic sheen.

 

But I know that I do this and I try not to muddle it up with 'reality'. I certainly don't think we should discard the creative, but we need to know the difference between fact and fiction.

 

Writing poetry and doing crazy things for those we love is a whole different ball game to getting stuck in a damsel in distress/knight in shinning armour routine. (And that's not to say I don't love being carried over the threshold - I really do!!)

 

p.s Are you familiar with HH's Lady of Shallot? Often when I mention to people that my favourite painting is by Holman Hunt, I get the response 'oh yeah? - The Light of the World?' which really makes me MAD! I really dislike that painting and always have - even as a Christian!!

[Amethyst]

Amy, I regard myself as a hopeless romantic. (Not sure I know what constitutes a 'true' romantic or not - sounds a bit like that whole 'true christian' debate ). I romanticise things nearly all the time. I'm always rewriting history and applying a little romantic sheen.

 

But I know that I do this and I try not to muddle it up with 'reality'. I certainly don't think we should discard the creative, but we need to know the difference between fact and fiction.

 

Writing poetry and doing crazy things for those we love is a whole different ball game to getting stuck in a damsel in distress/knight in shinning armour routine. (And that's not to say I don't love being carried over the threshold - I really do!!)

 

Agreed. It's one thing to enjoy romantic fiction. Hey, there is some science fiction/fantasy I enjoy because of the romantic aspect. For example, Forever Knight. Angel. Highlander. Some episodes of Star Trek, even.

 

Heck, it's even one thing to write romantic fiction, but obsessing over it and losing your sense of reality is another thing entirely. When you lose your sense of reality, it's time to get professional counseling.

[white_raven23]

Awww shucks folks. Aren't there no true romantics here? Can't we celebrate romanticism just a little?

Ah. So now we aren't "True Romantics" because we believe in equality. Celebrate YOUR definition of romanticism? Hell no.

Don't you ever sit down and write a romantic poem to your significant other or do something crazy for her/him?

You think people who believe in equality cannot do this for some reason? That's YOUR mental block not ours.

Of course life can't be like an adventure, action movie all the time. Gee, but we shouldn't throw out the creative, spontanious side of us, should we?

Again...your mental block. No different than assuming atheists are immoral because they don't believe there's a god. Romance and creativity influence each other, but they are independant of each other. Except within YOUR mind.

I mean it would be nice if femininity was thought of as something sacred and not just, how quickly can I get her to bed?" That's what I meant by "worship from afar."

 

The things you are tying together in this sentence.....

 

Nice male stereotyping too. I'm sure the guys here appreciate being negatively sexualized like that. Doesn't matter if it's 2006, Amy's going to treat guys like 1930's chauvanists.

 

I suppose she'd like it better if I shucked my jeans and put on a frilly little dress and heels.

 

Sometimes you make me laugh You must have some crazy notion that I sit in an ivory tower praying and painting all day.

 

Yeah....where would we get an idea like that?

 

*looking at the picture in Amy's sig line*

[Celsus]

Sometimes you make me laugh You must have some crazy notion that I sit in an ivory tower praying and painting all day.

 

Well to be perfectly honest Amy, you have not given any other impression. Everything you have written or art you have shared is swamped in romantacism. You ask about Chivalry, but you confuse manners and decent behaviors with a Code of behavior of middle-age knights. You ignore specific questions or points of discussion about the differences between reality and your perception of reality. So Amy, perhaps you should disabuse me and the rest of us of the notions about you that YOU have created.

 

Bruce

[Celsus]

Excerpt from American Pie

Lyrics by Don Mclean

 

Oh, and there we were all in one place

A generation Lost in Space

With no time left to start again

So come on, Jack be nimble,

Jack be quick Jack Flash sat on a candlestick

'Cause fire is the Devil's only friend

Oh, and as I watched him on the stage

My hands were clenched in fists of rage

No angel born in hell

Could break that Satan's spell

And as the flames climbed high into the night

To light the sacrificial rite

I saw Satan laughing with delight

The day the music died

 

I met a girl who sang the blues

And I asked her for some happy news

But she just smiled and turned away

I went down to the sacred store

Where I'd heard the music years before

But the man there said the music woudn't play

And in the streets the children screamed

The lovers cried, and the poets dreamed

But not a word was spoken

The church bells all were broken

 

WTF?

[Guest Big Mac]

Awww shucks folks. Aren't there no true romantics here?

 

Probably not.

 

Can't we celebrate romanticism just a little? Don't you ever sit down and write a romantic poem to your significant other or do something crazy for her/him? Of course life can't be like an adventure, action movie all the time. Gee, but we shouldn't throw out the creative, spontanious side of us, should we? I mean it would be nice if femininity was thought of as something sacred and not just, how quickly can I get her to bed?" That's what I meant by "worship from afar."

 

I feel a strange reminding of the last scene of Billy Madison. Care for me to go through the entire speech?

 

 

Bruce,

 

You asked me,

 

"I would like to ask if you can even entertain the thought that you have created an alternate reality in your head to deal with the problems of life?"

 

Sometimes you make me laugh You must have some crazy notion that I sit in an ivory tower praying and painting all day.

 

Alice, I LOVE the pre-raphaelite artists. You mentioned the Lady of Shallott. I love the John Waterhouse version.

 

Well I may not be Bruce Wayne but I'm Sam Macon and I AM BATMAN!!!! *cough*

 

Anywho, that's the impression I get from reading your posts already. I'm sure you pray like 4 times and day and cry about unsaved puppies or something....

 

 

As for JS, sex is what keeps the world turning man. I don't mean literally but what keeps humans around is sex. Well for that matter ALL animals (gasp!) have sex to procreate. Sex is not bad as long as it isn't taken to excess or not consentual (by that I mean 18 year olds and willing). Of course God, for some odd reason, has this huge fascination with us having sex. Never understood that, like a parent focusing on your privates or something.

[Celsus]

Life is bigger

It's bigger than you

And you are not me

The lengths that I will go to

The distance in your eyes

Oh no I've said too much

I set it up

 

That's me in the corner

That's me in the spotlight

Losing my religion

Trying to keep up with you

And I don't know if I can do it

Oh no I've said too much

I haven't said enough

I thought that I heard you laughing

I thought that I heard you sing

I think I thought I saw you try

 

Every whisper

Of every waking hour I'm

Choosing my confessions

Trying to keep an eye on you

Like a hurt lost and blinded fool

Oh no I've said too much

I set it up

 

Consider this

The hint of the century

Consider this

The slip that brought me

To my knees failed

What if all these fantasies

Come flailing around

Now I've said too much

I thought that I heard you laughing

I thought that I heard you sing

I think I thought I saw you try

 

But that was just a dream

That was just a dream

 

Wow, I can post lyrics that have absolutley nothing to do with the discussion at hand too.

 

Goddam Amy, this is the kind of stuff that infuriates people who try to have conversations with you.

 

Bruce

[white_raven23]

Amy, you don't even know what that song is about.

 

The main theme is about the deaths of three top muscicians in one plane crash.

 

It's also about the eras Mclean had witnessed, and wondering what the future would hold.

 

http://www.rareexception.com/Garden/Pie.php

[Guest Big Mac]

Amy, you don't even know what that song is about.

 

The main theme is about the deaths of three top muscicians in one plane crash.

 

It's also about the eras Mclean had witnessed, and wondering what the future would hold.

 

http://www.rareexception.com/Garden/Pie.php

 

 

Dude, that's devil talk! LULZ! Jesus totally pwned the devil....massive LULZ!

 

Just saying what she was about to say, just I did it with more intelligence.

[Thackerie]

Wow, I can post lyrics that have absolutley nothing to do with the discussion at hand too.

 

Goddam Amy, this is the kind of stuff that infuriates people who try to have conversations with you.

 

Bruce

 

Exactly! I don't want to be mean. IRL I'm much nicer than some of my snippy comments here might imply, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But, damn! I'm getting bored with these endless threads filled with exCs either trying to get AM to respond rationally or trying to bolster her supposedly fragile ego, and getting nothing of substance or meaning in reply. She might be a nice person IRL, too, but all I see of her on here is a passive-aggressive personality sucking up attention. Enough already!

[Alice]

Well, there you go! A woman after me own heart. You even admit to loving being carried over the threshhold! You write historical fiction?

 

I meant I retell my own history!! (and yes - occasionally I suppose you could call my story telling 'historical fiction' - (although when the chips are down I tell it like it is, not how I wish it had been)

 

I know it's hard for some people to believe that a person who loves Jesus can't seperate fact from fiction. Like I'm some crazy looney tooney freak. Oh well...

 

Bless you - that's classic. I spent years finding it hard to tell fact from fiction, as have many here. It's not hard for us to believe this. One day, maybe you'll be able to separate the fantasy from the reality. You won't have to throw away your creative side. Your imagination will stay intact and you'll still be a sucker for romance.

 

Oh the Holman Hunt picture of Christ, why that's just plain creepy! My sister and I used to laugh and say Christ looked like an owl in that picture. I have probably seen HH Lady of Shallott but I can't think of what it looks like right now.

 

Not that I don't agree - but what did you find creepy about it? Most christians love the symbolism in the depiction.

 

 

What about Edward Burnes Jones, "The King and the Beggar Maid?" Have you ever seen that painting? Now that's a beautiful painting! I was going to post it here but I have dial up and it's doing that sacnning thing today which takes forever.

 

I know the one by Edmund Blair Leighton - are we talking the same picture. (the King is kneeling and holding his crown out to the woman?)

 

When you talk about celebrating romance - what is it you mean? and how would you 'romance a man?' - if indeed you would? (What I'm trying to get at is - is romance always confined within gender sterotypes for you, or does it mean poetic expressions of love?)