How Is Christianity Reasonable

[Mythra]

Ah. The grammar police have arrived.

 

C'mon. Come up with some deep philosophical stuff. Like I did.

[Grandpa Harley]

I did... but i have the feeling 40zz is a shit bomber fundie... they come they dump they leave...

[Mythra]

I did... but i have the feeling 40zz is a shit bomber fundie... they come they dump they leave...

 

Yeah. Probably. I see he worships Immanuel Christ though.

 

So he's got that going for him.

[Grandpa Harley]

Immanuel Christ? Tall chap? Large collection of Opus Dei memorabilia? I know him well... I spent some time in a Lyon gaol with him due to an 'unfortunate misunderstanding' involving 23 Lascar sailors, the Sûreté, a concealed luger, half a tonne of pickled herring, two MOSSAD agents, and a rare base ball card that managed to place Babe Ruth in the Negro League. We can laugh about it now...

[Ouroboros]

I did... but i have the feeling 40zz is a shit bomber fundie... they come they dump they leave...

Veni, dumpi, vici?

 

Yeah. Probably. I see he worships Immanuel Christ though.

Ooooooh... ... ... Fuck, I thought he meant Immanuel Kant! See how confusing it can be sometimes...

[Mythra]

Immanuel Christ? Tall chap? Large collection of Opus Dei memorabilia? I know him well... I spent some time in a Lyon gaol with him due to an 'unfortunate misunderstanding' involving 23 Lascar sailors, the Sûreté, a concealed luger, half a tonne of pickled herring, two MOSSAD agents, and a rare base ball card that managed to place Babe Ruth in the Negro League. We can laugh about it now...

 

I don't know what half of that stuff is. But it sure made me laugh.

[Grandpa Harley]

of course... I was terribly drunk...

[Kuroikaze]

1) Where did we come from? (Did we just appear, evolved, created ect..)?

 

Evolution is only an explanation of biological life, as to how the universe began, I don't know, and neither do you, you posit a god into the unknown, it doesn't make you a genius...just another lemming.

 

2) Why are we here? (What is our purpose)?

 

Purpose? Who says there has to be a purpose? I'm here to enjoy life as long as I have it, care about my family...all that stuff. I very much doubt that the supposed "purpose" you have found in religion is any more meaningful than mine, in fact, I've tried yours so I know its not.

 

3) How do we know how to live while we're here? (where's the rule book? Owners manual)?

 

Culture is one big experiment, my standard is what works and doesn't work, why do you seem to think you are in a better position for basing your morality on a 2,000 year old book written by misogynistic, homophobic, and racist idiots?

 

4) Where are we going when we die? (What's after death, reincarnation, nothing, some white light, heaven, hell)?

 

Probably nothing, I see no evidence that the mind can live without the body...Though I would be open to evidence to the contrary, I've seen none as of yet.

[Kuroikaze]

Ooooooh... ... ... Fuck, I thought he meant Immanuel Kant! See how confusing it can be sometimes...

 

 

A religion based on Immanuel Kant. So instead of hanging the 10 commandments on the wall of their house would people hang the categorical imperative?

[Guest 40zz]

DevaLight wrote: How is this unclear? Why not address why you believe the above points are factual instead of giving us another set of your own questions? Not up to the task?

 

Oh, it's very clear, however, you and I both know any answer I give will lead to a ping-pong back and forth till we end up to the questions I've asked. Don't believe me, watch! Here we go! Ready?

 

1. A talking snake tempted the mother of all humanity and she tempted the father of all humanity and thus they sinned.

 

Yes, Satan appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent. (Talking snake). Eve persuaded Adam and thus yes, the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty. Is that fair? Doesn’t seem so. But it is all of God’s plan called dispensation which is according to His purposes towards man.

 

2. All humans are thus tainted with the original sin, instigated by a talking snake.

 

Yes, Factual because I believe the Word of God.

 

I don't want to hi-jack Bruce's thread with my questions, therefore I'm going to start another thread titled "Philosophical questions", because I'll garranty you that if we continue with these question on this thread, we will no dout end up answering to these four questions.

 

Com'on who's up for some deep thinking?

 

Ping…! ball paddled.

[Grandpa Harley]

Not exactly a 'paddled ball', you've simple established that you are completely without worth as an adversary

 

Let the mocking commence...

 

'Deep thinking'? In what universe? Original sin? BWHA-HA-HA-HA-HA.... you think talking snakes as literally true? and they let you have access to sharps? My, but the colonies have a robust attitude to mental health care...

 

now run along and plague someone else, before I feel the need to insult you again...

[Deva]

Oh, it's very clear, however, you and I both know any answer I give will lead to a ping-pong back and forth till we end up to the questions I've asked. Don't believe me, watch! Here we go! Ready?

 

1. A talking snake tempted the mother of all humanity and she tempted the father of all humanity and thus they sinned.

 

Yes, Satan appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent. (Talking snake). Eve persuaded Adam and thus yes, the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty. Is that fair? Doesn’t seem so. But it is all of God’s plan called dispensation which is according to His purposes towards man.

 

2. All humans are thus tainted with the original sin, instigated by a talking snake.

 

Yes, Factual because I believe the Word of God.

 

I don't want to hi-jack Bruce's thread with my questions, therefore I'm going to start another thread titled "Philosophical questions", because I'll garranty you that if we continue with these question on this thread, we will no dout end up answering to these four questions.

<snip>

 

OK, wise guy, what kind of dispensationalist are you? Pre-millenial or Post-millenial? Please don't assume we have never heard the word before.

 

"Factual because I believe the Word of God." I say it is not the word of god because it is entirely the product of human thinking--it also isn't factual. You believe in "original sin" which is really a doctrine developed by others long after the talking snake story was written. The Jewish people don't believe it.

 

You must be one of those folks that say "The Bible said it, I believe it that settles it." Am I right? If so, your mind is so closed I doubt anyone could persuade you differently. Trying to cloud the issue with "philosophical questions" isn't going to help your case.

[Evolution_beyond]

1) Where did we come from? (Did we just appear, evolved, created ect..)?

 

People are born from their mother's womb, taking part of their genes from their mum and part of their genes from their dad. Over time, certain genes get selected, due to environmental pressures affecting which offspring survive long enough to reproduce. This process is called evolution - in this way humans evolved from some form of ape, which evolved from some form of monkey, which evolved from some form of basic mammal, which evolved from reptiles, which evolved from amphibians, which evolved from fish, which evolved from worms - all the way back to the original form of biological life, some form of cyanobacteria.

 

2) Why are we here? (What is our purpose)?

 

Because our sperms got to the egg before all those other sperms. ie. we were lucky.

 

As to purpose - we have no purpose except that which we make for ourselves.

 

3) How do we know how to live while we're here? (where's the rule book? Owners manual)?

 

The human species have to live with each other. It is mutually beneficial for us all to co-operate. Otherwise it is total chaos and misery for everybody.

 

So the general rule of thumb is to respect one another and try not to cause unnecessary distress to our fellow humans. If you can find your own happiness in life, without taking away the freedom and happiness of others then you are doing well.

 

4) Where are we going when we die? (What's after death, reincarnation, nothing, some white light, heaven, hell)?

 

Your thoughts and ideas when expressed in words or other forms of creation will contribute to the ongoing dialogue between human beings that contributes to the future development of the human race. If you are lucky enough to reproduce, then your genes will pass on to your offspring. Your physical form goes into the ground and is recycled into other living things.

 

I think that is a far more beautiful afterlife than any of the silly scenarios dreamed up by religion.

[Grandpa Harley]

Oh, it's very clear, however, you and I both know any answer I give will lead to a ping-pong back and forth till we end up to the questions I've asked. Don't believe me, watch! Here we go! Ready?

 

1. A talking snake tempted the mother of all humanity and she tempted the father of all humanity and thus they sinned.

 

Yes, Satan appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent. (Talking snake). Eve persuaded Adam and thus yes, the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty. Is that fair? Doesn’t seem so. But it is all of God’s plan called dispensation which is according to His purposes towards man.

 

2. All humans are thus tainted with the original sin, instigated by a talking snake.

 

Yes, Factual because I believe the Word of God.

 

I don't want to hi-jack Bruce's thread with my questions, therefore I'm going to start another thread titled "Philosophical questions", because I'll garranty you that if we continue with these question on this thread, we will no dout end up answering to these four questions.

<snip>

 

OK, wise guy, what kind of dispensationalist are you? Pre-millenial or Post-millenial? Please don't assume we have never heard the word before.

 

"Factual because I believe the Word of God." I say it is not the word of god because it is entirely the product of human thinking--it also isn't factual. You believe in "original sin" which is really a doctrine developed by others long after the talking snake story was written. The Jewish people don't believe it.

 

You must be one of those folks that say "The Bible said it, I believe it that settles it." Am I right? If so, your mind is so closed I doubt anyone could persuade you differently. Trying to cloud the issue with "philosophical questions" isn't going to help your case.

 

You missed the fact the finger sniffing dolt's hubris is that he is capable of 'deep thought'... thought of any kind is obviated by his need for a 'user guide'... Muppet...

[Deva]

You missed the fact the finger sniffing dolt's hubris is that he is capable of 'deep thought'... thought of any kind is obviated by his need for a 'user guide'... Muppet...

 

Of course Gramps, I just think that goes without saying. He is obviously a Biblical literalist. Quite incapable of thought.

[Grandpa Harley]

It may to us, but it needs pointing out to the idiot child repeatedly...

[Evolution_beyond]

Yes, Satan appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent. (Talking snake). Eve persuaded Adam and thus yes, the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty. Is that fair? Doesn’t seem so. But it is all of God’s plan called dispensation which is according to His purposes towards man.

 

The story of Adam and Eve does not ever mention Satan.

 

The snake is apparently simply a snake - a mythical device to explain how wrongness came into the world.

 

Satan first appears in the book of Job. And he seems to be quite friendly with God, albeit as a kind of official political opposition.

 

It's really the New Testament that talks about Satan or the Evil One as an enemy of God.

 

Your religion evolved over time - there is no indication whatsoever that the writers of Genesis even believed in a devil.

 

So why do you believe there is a being called Satan? If Satan was created by God but with the Free Will to go bad - then does that mean that some part of Satan longs for redemption? Does it mean that God would like to forgive Satan? If Adam and Eve needed a devil to tempt them into wrong then who tempted Satan? How can a perfect creation of God go bad? If you say Free Will - then why believe there is such a being as Satan? If you need to believe in a devil to explain how evil came into the world then you also need to explain how evil came into Satan's heart.

 

There is something desperately illogical about believing in Satan. I never believed it when I was a christian - I do not believe there is such a being now.

 

Satan is a lie, invented by religion to scare people.

[Ouroboros]

...

Com'on who's up for some deep thinking?

 

Ping…! ball paddled.

Are you serious?

 

I'm so fucking tired of religious nutjobs coming here and think they know the "answer" to everthing and can challenge us with some questions we've been asked at least once a month for years.

 

I checked your thread and it wasn't even on preschool level. It was lame. I've heard testimonies of people who challenged your questions when they were kids.

 

It really doesn't matter at all what we answer you anyway, because even if we have the right answers, you pull your "faith" card (like a get-out-of-jail card) and claim that it should be taken on faith. "Just believe" will be your angle. So facts and reality could stare you straight in the face and you would deny it because of your fantasy life.

[Taphophilia]

<snipped for dipshit idiocy>

 

Do you ever think for yourself or do you just gobble up the bullshit you are told?

[Japedo]

Please don't consider me closed minded. I admit, I am somewhat bias. Aren't we all? I try very hard to get rid of all presumptions though.

 

I can't speak for all, only myself. I once held the belief that Jesus Christ was the only lord of lords. It wasn't until seeking answers and looking for the truth no matter what that truth was did I remove my 'bias'. Being Bias is being Closed minded, and supporting a favored outcome, as hard as it is if you want honest answers you'll have to be willing to accept something even if you don't want it to be true. I don't think any of us here set out to disprove god, we set out to find him.

 

You claim that other ancient religions have resurrecting gods. That doesn't prove anything. Also, most of the ones I've looked don't speak of resurrecting gods until after Christ. Mythraism is one of them I think. The earliest accounts of mythra, which are before Christ, don't claim he rose from the dead. Now, I realize there are some resurrecting gods before Christ. But, they (at least, the ones I've studied) are not like Christ at all. Their resurrections are related to the death of plants in the fall, and the "resurrecting" of plants in the spring. The death of these gods in the fall, and their resurrections are how the ancients explained the way plants "die and live" again.

 

Does that make sense?

 

No,

 

Please go do a study on Osiris. He brought salvation to the world 1,400 before Christ did. Dionysus is another one you can go do a study on. There are more but those two will do for now. Mortal mother, godly father, death, heavens,baptism, hell salvation are the main themes with Dionysus. These gods exsisted with more 'evidence' and ancient writings and graphics then did JC.

 

 

 

You cannot deny though, that you all say some pretty ridiculous stuff too.

 

Such as..........................?

 

 

I believe Christ rose from the dead. Therefore, I am a totally illogical person. I think not. I have (and am still) considering all sides of the resurrection. So far, I have come to the conclusion that Christ rose from the dead. Ya follow?

 

 

How would it sound if I said, "I believe Dionysus rose from the dead to save mankind." What's your reaction to that? I view your dead dead/rising godman on the same footing I do as Dionysus, draw from that what you will..

[dibby]

40zz I don,t think you have read the account in Genesis carefully enough. It is actually the serpent who tells the truth and the Elohim who lie!! Read it for yourself.

[Grandpa Harley]

dibb's you're wasting your time trying to communicate with the tweaking loon...

[Celsus]

40zz,

 

The purpose of this thread is to get a logical explanation from an orthodox Christian as to why they think it is reasonable for a person to take the orthodox Christian claims seriously. How is the claim that a talking snake/serpent, et. al. is anymore worthy of consideration than the stories of other religions, for instance, Athena springing from the head of Zeus.

 

Do you as a person living in the 21st century truly believe that stories of talking reptiles, talking donkeys, etc. are reasonable to believe? If so, why? Can you answer the questions I posted a couple of years ago in this thread?

 

I submit that people that believe in these things live in a world of magic. People that believe these absurd stories as literal truths are deluded. All you have to do to disprove my assertion is to provide one instance of a talking snake/serpent, etc. In reality, the standard fall back is that is was a miracle of God, ie: MAGIC.

 

So how is it reasonable to accept these stories as factual, considering all we know of biology, anthropology, etc?

 

//Bruce//

[South2003]

1) Where did we come from? (Did we just appear, evolved, created ect..)?

 

MY mummy and dadda. Must I go into details? You know how it’s done. Then again, you might need someone with experience to show ya!

 

Me thinks according to the bible they did this:

 

2) Why are we here? (What is our purpose)?

 

No the question should have been: Why are you NOT here? Youg chap, do you know you could have been another one of your mother’s menstrual cycle?

 

Next question!

 

3) How do we know how to live while we're here? (where's the rule book? Owners manual)?

 

How do you know when and how to wash your arse? Right M'kay, you were taught. Washing your arse will prevent it from crusting over.

 

4) Where are we going when we die? (What's after death, reincarnation, nothing,

some white light, heaven, hell)?

 

Unless a little birdie told you otherwise, you will be worn food!

[dr_funkenstein]

1) Where did we come from? (Did we just appear, evolved, created ect..)?

 

2) Why are we here? (What is our purpose)?

 

3) How do we know how to live while we're here? (where's the rule book? Owners manual)?

 

4) Where are we going when we die? (What's after death, reincarnation, nothing, some white light, heaven, hell)?

 

1) To whom do you refer by the term "we"? Do you mean homo sapiens or does your definition extend to all living organisms? I'll presume you mean life itself. If so, then read my answer to question 2 for the answer to this question.

 

2) We are here because we are the result of a continuing process of self-replication, refinement and adaptation. At some point, a self-replicating structure with tendencies for alteration naturally formed. Natural selection ensured that the structures that replicated the fastest dominated the population. Over time, these structures adapted and adapted, spanning many generations, developing more and more features until one day a single-celled organism existed. And so on and so forth, through RNA, DNA, sexual reproduction, chromosomes, the tree of life adapted and branched out into many species - and we are but one of those species.

 

3) Some functions are involuntary - like breathing, pumping blood, etc. These are biological functions that have evolved. The need to eat, drink and shit are likewise biological functions that have evolved, and drive the primitive parts of our brain to perform these bodily functions.

 

Humans are also a social animal - and this strategy evolved because it gave us a survival advantage - working as a team always gives benefits to the individuals. In order for a social group to work together effectively however, you need a form of empathy - individuals need to put the needs of others first sometimes. That is why our emotions have evolved to allow these complex feelings of empathy and altruism. It's interesting to note that we see this demonstrated in other social animals as well.

 

What's interesting about humans though, is that we have evolved these amazingly powerful brains. You can think of the human brain as analogous to the hardware of a computer, that can run all different kinds of software. Over time we have refined and passed on this software as our experience has developed. What's interesting is that our minds have in effect become a new environment for ideas or "memes" to inhabit. So in much the same way as the genes that use our bodies as hosts to propagate from one generation to the next, memes propagate themselves through our minds.

 

Sometimes groups of memes coexist, and we call these "memplexes". For example, hunter/gatherer techniques could be considered memeplexes that has benefited us as a species, and we have passed it on from mind to mind. Likewise the ideas and practices associated with agriculture, and water management, and shelter-building, and so on and so on.

 

So in summary, we know how to live partially because of our biological drives that have been hardwired into us through evolution; we know how to treat each other with respect because of our ability to empathize with others - again a trait developed through evolution; and we have gotten really good at living because of complex memeplexes that we have passed on from generation to generation that provide skills to not just survive but thrive!

 

4) Your question seems to be predicated on the assumption that some part of us continues to exist after we die. I'm curious to know what gave you this idea. The study that's been done over the years by scientists investigating the human consciousness so far indicates that all of our thoughts, ideas, emotions, and the individuality we all intuitively know as "me" (sitting somewhere behind your eyes) is essentially a function of your brain.

 

Have you ever met someone who has suffered a stroke or brain injury whose personality has been profoundly changed as a result? This is a good and simple way of understanding how everything that makes us who we are finds its centre not in some esoteric concept like a "soul", but rather in the very natural explanation that our brains make us who we are.

 

Given that understanding, when we die, the blood flow ceases to the brain - it is starved of oxygen and in very very short order the complex structures and pathways within the brain that determine our individuality are destroyed - and by extension, the human consciousness also ceases to exist.

 

To illustrate this point further, consider your own memories as a child. We know that the human brain is not fully developed at birth, but continues to develop well into childhood. Do you have memories of your birth? Of course not. How many memories do you have at 1 year old? Probably none. 2? Some people might say they have one or two memories at this age. As you grow older, the number of memories you can recall increases. Why is this so? Because the brain is developing throughout this time.

 

It can be hard for us to accept this reality. When you consider that we have evolved such a powerful sense of self, and add to that our strong will to survive, it's easy to see how the human mind wants to conceive of a way in which the self - the ego - can somehow survive beyond death. This desire was the starting point for a meme whch over time has evolved into not one, but a plethora of different memeplexes that satisfy this psychological human need and a whole host of others.

 

We know these memeplexes today as religions.