Why More Xtians Than Ex-muslims?

[The Sage Nabooru]

I do wonder, why does it seem that the number of ex-Christians vastly outweighs the number of ex-Muslims? They're both dogmatic religions that deny human nature and instinct.

 

I could count on one hand the number of actual ex-Muslims I've heard of, and that's not just because I happen to live in a Western country. Even the Bosnian kids I knew at school and work, even though they could hardly be described as living devoutly Muslim, I never met one that actually did not believe in the religion or converted to another.

 

I would think that it is because Islam stresses the brotherhood of all believers strongly, and therefore Muslims are more likely to support one another in their belief, but I'm not sure if this is any more or less than Christians do. (Albeit Christians are much more likely to splinter into little petty denominations over the color of the wine in Communion and what language the pastor speaks, etc. which really hurts Christian fraternity.) Islam could be said to be better organized, in that in areas where it predominates it is quite literally the law and therefore people aren't allowed to even think of a non-Muslim life. The only well-organized group in Christianity is Catholicism, which might explain why faith in the Christian God is higher in predominantly Catholic areas than in Protestant areas.

 

Still, it doesn't explain why so many Muslims that move to Western countries and even their second- and third-generation descendants still cling to Islam. Even after living in a secular or even anticlerical land, they're still far less likely to scoff at their religion (or former religion) than Christians are.

[Lycorth]

Personally, I think it's a mixture of influences, such as the Middle-East being generally stunted in cultural and technological growth. Unlike the West, where our advances have caused us to question old superstitions, the Mid-east doesn't have those little triggers. Hardcore Is-lame retarded the people's growth.

 

And even those who come to Western nations for several generations don't question things, despite the exposure to new advances in science and so forth since the hardcore Is-lame fundy-mentality has simply been ingrained longer into Arabic peoples than Western folk. The longer a virus remains within a host, the worse the illness.

 

Which ties into the fact that, due to little cultural progress, there has been relatively no questioning of Is-lame from within Is-lame. Xianity fell mainly because of Xians questioning it and deciding against it; Is-lame has yet to see this, aside from a few scattered infidels.

[SkepticOfBible]

I would think that it is because Islam stresses the brotherhood of all believers strongly

 

Atleast they don't have 20000 christian denominations.

 

I believe Islam does have explicit teaching of tolerance of other religions. Although i may be wrong on this.

 

I come from India, which has the second largest Muslim Population in the world, and yet I don't see them cutting off our heads. Like most people just want to get on with their lives, and when the going get tough, they always have religion to rely on.

[Checkmate]

There are fewer EX-Muslims because Ex-Muslims tend to become Ex-Living. I have read plenty of horror stories of how Muslims maim and kill family members who become apostates. Here is just one.

 

Muslim Apostate Cast Out and at Risk

 

With this sort of incentive it is understandable why apostasy is down amongst the Muslim community.

 

 

For more from the ex-Muslim community, go here...Apostates of Islam

[texmex2003]

I have to agree with Checkmate. We do not have to worry about loosing our heads, being pummelled with stones and being set afire because we left the Paulist group. However, that is not the same for those who want to leave Allah or diss Allah in anyway. Muslims use the threat of death to keep their members in line. What a peaceful religion.

[Artur]

*

[smellincoffee]

Atleast they don't have 20000 christian denominations.

 

It would be better if they did. As it is, they have two or three big groups that cause an excessive amount of damage. If they splintered more, it would be harder to get a crowd together.

[The Sage Nabooru]

It would be better if they did. As it is, they have two or three big groups that cause an excessive amount of damage. If they splintered more, it would be harder to get a crowd together.

 

Well let's not forget that in Iraq and in many other places right now belonging to the opposing sect (Sunni or Shiite) is already such a blasphemy that it deserves torture and death. Although the idea of ummah (the community of faithful) is spoken of in Islam it only applies to your particular sect. Anyone else is a blasphemer and apostate and deserves to die.

[Toxic]

I would think that it is because Islam stresses the brotherhood of all believers strongly, and therefore Muslims are more likely to support one another in their belief, but I'm not sure if this is any more or less than Christians do. (Albeit Christians are much more likely to splinter into little petty denominations over the color of the wine in Communion and what language the pastor speaks, etc. which really hurts Christian fraternity.) Islam could be said to be better organized, in that in areas where it predominates it is quite literally the law and therefore people aren't allowed to even think of a non-Muslim life. The only well-organized group in Christianity is Catholicism, which might explain why faith in the Christian God is higher in predominantly Catholic areas than in Protestant areas.

 

What about the Bible belt areas of America? And aren't there parts of Utah were Mormonism virtually the law? I've personally only met one ex muslim in the UK (it's the second biggest religion there). I once heard about this muslim in the UK who came out as gay and was subsequently beaten unconcious by his own brothers, so with this kind of pressure you can see why ex muslims are less vocal.

[The_Omniscient]

Well, In reality the reason why Muslims do cling with their religion is the natural acceptance of the concept of God as offered by Islam. Islam is not a new religion, rather the continuity of religion of Abraham in its pure and uncorrupted form. If the reason is this that the apostates are threatened by other Muslim groups then even then this thing becomes of less importance and effect because muslims especially living in developed countries are free to choose their path themselves but they seldom leave Islam by their own choice and the reason is only the inner spiritual and mental satisfaction they obtain in pursuant of believing upon a single Universal God.

 

In real life, Muslims do condemn apostates and it makes them to "sigh" only, but it is an evident fact that killing of apostates is not a common practice. There are black sheeps in every community and we can not blame whole community for the act of a minority out of ignorance. The most sacred scipture of Muslims i.e. Holy Quran does nowhere commands for the killing of apostates rather, it reveals a very tolerant behavior with people of other religions and even for the acceptance or rejection of Islam. It clearly says " There is no compulsion in religion". this verse makes all the articles of faith a matter of choice rather then a matter of compulsion.........

[SkepticOfBible]

In real life, Muslims do condemn apostates and it makes them to "sigh" only, but it is an evident fact that killing of apostates is not a common practice. There are black sheeps in every community and we can not blame whole community for the act of a minority out of ignoranc

And what about the fact when a whole community/nation turns to Islamic/Sharia laws

 

 

The. The most sacred scipture of Muslims i.e. Holy Quran does nowhere commands for the killing of apostates rather, it reveals a very tolerant behavior with people of other religions and even for the acceptance or rejection of Islam. It clearly says " There is no compulsion in religion". this verse makes all the articles of faith a matter of choice rather then a matter of compulsion.........

We are talking about Apostates, not about potential converts

 

Did you forgot the case of Abdul Rahman

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)

Abdul Rahman's arrest and trial brought international attention to an apparent contradiction in the Constitution of Afghanistan, which recognizes both a limited form of freedom of religion and the Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence, which mandates the death penalty for an apostate.

.....................................

Legal experts say Abdul Rahman's case existed because of contradictory laws in the Afghan Constitution recognizing both freedom of religion and the Hanafi school of sharia law. Article 130 of the Constitution of Afghanistan enables prosecutors to charge him for apostasy "in accordance with the Hanafi jurisprudence." The text of the article says:

................................................

Prosecutors asked for the death penalty for Abdul Rahman, calling him a "microbe."[6] Prosecutor Abdul Wasi demanded his repentance and called him a traitor: "He should be cut off and removed from the rest of Muslim society and should be killed." The Afghan Attorney General was quoted as saying that Abdul Rahman should be hanged.[9]

 

Abdul Rahman's judicial proceedings, which began on March 16 and became widely known in the international press on March 19, were overseen by three judges in the public security tribunal of Kabul's primary court. Ansarullah Mawlawizadah, the chief judge in the case, said that Abdul Rahman would be asked to reconsider his conversion: "We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him." The judge further noted that "Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told [Abdul Rahman] if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him."[10] The judge added more: "If [he] does not repent, you will all be witness to the sort of punishment he will face.

....

Clerics question President Karzai's authority to order Abdul Rahman's release. Cleric Khoja Ahmad Sediqi, a member of the Supreme Court in Afghanistan, warned against interfering with the courts, saying that "The Qur'an is very clear and the words of our prophet are very clear. There can only be one outcome: death. If Karzai releases him, it will play into the hands of our enemy and there could be an uprising.

Sounds to me that Rahman was given a ultimatum

 

I am pretty sure these clerics must have some scriptural backing to justify their case. and This isn't a case of few black sheep, but rather a whole community

 

I did find this article interesting

 

However the Quran itself is silent on the punishment for apostasy, though not the subject itself.

.................

Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania. Similarly, blasphemy is punishable by death in Pakistan.

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The Qur'an says:

"Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Clearly the Right Path (i.e. Islam) is distinct from the crooked path". (2:256)

A section of the 'People of the Book' (Jews and Christians) says: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." (3:72)

"But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith, never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." (3:90)

"Those who blasphemed and back away from the ways of Allah and die as blasphemers, Allah shall not forgive them". (4:48)

"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way." (4:137)

"O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleases. And Allah encompasses all, and He knows all things". (5:54)

 

The Hadith (the body of quotes attributed to Muhammad) includes statements taken as supporting the death penalty for apostasy, such as:

"Kill whoever changes his religion" (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 9, book 84, number 57, narrated via Ibn Abbas)

 

and

"The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 9, book 83, number 17, narrated via Abdullah)

............................................

Islam Online, a hugely popular Muslim website, contains a fatwa dated 21 March 2004 and ascribed to 'IOL Shariah Researchers' says:

"If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.‏ In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed." [5]

 

I guess you and fellow brethern have a lot of figuring out to do with regarding this issue. Off course, the Islamic God would be silent on this matter as usual.

[D Laurier]

Persecuted people will often take refuge in their comunity, and reject outside ideas, This is as true for islamic peoples as it is for anyone else,.

 

The notion that islam is "STILL" fundamentalist, is wrong,, Fundamentalism is actualy a recent development in islam, Colonized muslims borowed the sickness of their christian and democracy masters in the late 19th and early 20th century,

 

The islamic Uma was for several hundred years a progressive and intelectual socioty, While christian europe groaned through the dark ages, However islam stagnated into arrogance and despotism. By the early 13th century the caliphic state was more concerned with ceremony and ammusement than with reality. Bagdad was the richest and most populated city in the world, but it was the least defended. Its civic guard were old men with wooden swords and paper armor.

The caliphs honestly believed that war was beneath them, and most muslims agreed.

 

In 1252 a mongol army swept into the islamic world and killed over 90% of all the worlds muslims.

The muslims were defenceless. They never recovered.

 

the great khan Huaga took over 20 million books from the librarys of bagdad, and burned them as punishment to the last caliphic princess after she refused to have sex with his hunting dogs.

 

The last surviving arab medical doctor, was sold to a venetian sea captain in 1264, for the price of a loaf of bread.... The european states emerged from the dark ages and into the high medieval age at about the same time.

 

The christian kingdoms continued to advance thereafter untill they reached the same level of technology and education as the islamic arabs, this was around 1600 or so, Most of this advancement was borrowed from islam.

 

However after that the christian west started to think for itself. No longer dependent on islam for ideas, the christians grew and developed in their own directions, meanwhile islam itself suffered several disasters that led to the loss of technology, and to a deepening despair among muslims.

By about 1700, most of the uma had regressed to a state very similar to the european dark ages.

 

By the mid 19th century, the wahabi sect was formed in the arabian peninsula, and they adopted many of the more repressive and sexist attitudes of victorian england. It is from the wahabi sect that all modern islamic fundamentalist sects have grown.

 

By the early 20th century, islam was rushing to embrace the very failings and shortcomings that the west was trying to abandon.

It didnt help that england, italy, and france were assigning their most backward, incompetent and corrupt officers and officials to govern their colonial territorys in the islamic world.

 

The only protection that a muslim had, was his comunity of faith.

Leaving that comunity meant leaving its protection, and becoming a visible target for anti-islamic violence and colonial brutality.

 

Today the habbits of 700 years of foreign rule are still crippling the islamic uma. Muslims are unwilling to leave the protection of the uma because they believe that as long as they stay in it, they will be safe from their enemys. And as western anti-islamic violence intensifies, so too does islamic desperation.

[HoustonHorn]

I have to agree with Checkmate. We do not have to worry about loosing our heads, being pummelled with stones and being set afire because we left the Paulist group. However, that is not the same for those who want to leave Allah or diss Allah in anyway. Muslims use the threat of death to keep their members in line. What a peaceful religion.

 

But Christianity has those things too, it's just that they're not carried out. Stonings, killings, and all sorts of vile things are in the Bible for those that leave God or keep sinning against Him. Maybe Christians are lazy. Makes me glad that the US isn't as much of a Christian nation as some evangelicals seem to think because they might legalize this type of thing.

[Jun]

But Christianity has those things too, it's just that they're not carried out.

 

The Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East beats people to a pulp if they try to leave or give up their belief in "God." I know this from the Assyrian people at my work. They are every bit as fanatical as the Muslims, and they appear to think the same way too. "Believe in God, or I'll MAKE you believe" seems to be their way.

[SkepticOfBible]

Thanks D Laurier, for that wonderful short history session. Are you a professional historian by any chance or is it merely a result of your research?

[D Laurier]

Hullo SkepticOfBible,

I study history,

I find history to be full of interesting people,events, and lessons,

As long as we study actual history,(as opposed to official history), we can learn from the mistakes of the past.

[pandora]

My limited experience and educated guess would be that there aren't necessarily fewer deconverts from Islam, but just fewer who are willing to be open about it. Rushdie comes to mind as one of the few who came out publically... and look what happened to him. I don't blame them, the fear they experience must be incredible, especially if they live in a predominantly Muslim country.