Baby Steps

[Open_Minded]

Our family lives in bedroom community to a relatively liberal metro area. Within 30 miles of our community is a well known Buddhist community. We have a thriving Pagan community with 15 miles. The metro area we live in is like most in the U.S. - filled with people from all different cultures and faith traditions.

 

Still, our local highschool musical productions are always laced with religious music (particularly Christian music). My 16 year-old daughter and her friends (all of them involved in music programs) have found this frustrating. Among her friends are kids who are Jewish, Pagan, Buddhist, Agnostic and Atheist.

 

Last night at the supper table my daughter was talking about this situation. Several of the kids in the choir went to the director and asked that the upcoming holiday concert include songs from different religious traditions, besides just Christian songs. The choir director actually listened to the kids and went to the larger choir. In the end the whole choir voted to include songs from other world religions during the upcoming holiday concert.

 

I know it's just a baby step. But, it's a step. It's a step that would not have happened 15-20 years ago.

 

What baby steps are all of you seeing in your lives and communities?

[♦ ficino ♦]

It's a mark of maturity that your daughter and her friends went to the choir director themselves rather than merely grouse at home and then let/have their parents call and initiate action for them on the issue.

[scitsofreaky]

 

What baby steps are all of you seeing in your lives and communities?

I actually had a somewhat encouraging conversation with my little sister. She was talking to our dad about the different referendums and such on this year's ballot. One referendum, "I" I think it is, which is about rights for same-sex couples ("It's not marriage, it's basic human rights"), came up. She said dad's posture and voice changed, and he said something asinine like they are just trying to get around the ban on marriage. She, wisely IMO, didn't say anything to him, it would have been pointless. This is the same man that told her, "You don't have to try and prove what you already know is true" when she had some of my basic philosophy books. Scary, I know. Anyway, what she told me was encouraging. She thinks it is ridiculous that everybody doesn't have the same rights. While she "thinks" (what she actually means is believe since she has no good reason) that being gay isn't a choice, and she doesn't support same-sex marriage, she does think everyone should have the same rights. It isn't very consistent, but it is a baby step in the right direction.

[Open_Minded]

It's a mark of maturity that your daughter and her friends went to the choir director themselves rather than merely grouse at home and then let/have their parents call and initiate action for them on the issue.

 

Thank you ... it is a mark of maturity.

 

It also says something about the choir director - that she was willing to listen to the kids. And it says something about the whole choir that they voted in favor of including songs from other religions.

 

Baby steps ... things like this give me hope for the future.

 

While she "thinks" (what she actually means is believe since she has no good reason) that being gay isn't a choice, and she doesn't support same-sex marriage, she does think everyone should have the same rights. It isn't very consistent, but it is a baby step in the right direction.

 

And thiings like this as well, give me hope.

 

Sometimes I get frustrated and feel quite cynical. It's important to remind ourselves occassionally that we are making progress. Things are changing. On my good days I'd like to think we're all maturing.

[Asimov]

I live in White Rock.

 

My Member of Parliament is a Christian, hates gay people and doesn't believe in evolution. My community is white people, who are christians, and we had a play at one of our local highschools banned because it had some gay themes in it.

 

We're progressing.

[truth]

I live in a pretty liberal area, western canada, for the most part and polical correctness rules mostly..and where multi culturalism and inclusivness is a pretty much given in most schools and government.

 

You would be hard pressed to find christian soangs in a public school concert... it probally wouldn't even be called christmas...

 

Am glad that your children were able to go to the choir director and voice their opinions.

[Curtdude]

I live in White Rock.

 

My Member of Parliament is a Christian, hates gay people and doesn't believe in evolution. My community is white people, who are christians, and we had a play at one of our local highschools banned because it had some gay themes in it.

 

We're progressing.

 

God, Asimov, I think I was there once a LONG time ago! It sounds like most of the States...not surprising since it's just over the border.

 

Thank god Vancouver is not far away.

[Turgonian]

I'd say it shouldn't be a problem if Christian songs are sung (even exclusively) in Europe and America. After all, those are traditionally Christian nations. You can't just change or neglect history...

 

Based on the same conservative view, I say that gays are certainly allowed to marry just like everyone else...but I don't think we should redefine 'marriage'.

[Open_Minded]

I'd say it shouldn't be a problem if Christian songs are sung (even exclusively) in Europe and America. After all, those are traditionally Christian nations. You can't just change or neglect history...

 

Turgonian ... I don't have time for a very long response... but....

 

America is NOT traditionally Christian. America is traditionally a nation of religious freedom, not all the leaders of this original democracy considered themselves Christian.

 

You are right about one thing though, Turgonian, "you can't just change or neglect history."

 

See the following:

 

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/his...tion_of_chu.htm

 

 

I say that gays are certainly allowed to marry just like everyone else...but I don't think we should redefine 'marriage'.

 

How can gays be allowed to marry "just like everyone else" without redefining the legal definition of marriage??????

[Turgonian]

Open_Minded, America certainly is a traditionally Christian country. Western values (for an important part Judeo-Christian ones) are all through American culture, inextricable (e.g. the emphasis on personal freedom!). You are right that it was originally a country of religious freedom (for Protestants, initially!), but one doesn't exclude the other. In fact, the First Amendment was made to protect the freedom of speech of religious minorities.

 

The article you linked to started with the paragraph:

 

The topic of Separation of Church and State has obviously become a hot one in America with both the Supreme Court case regarding the inclusion of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and President George Bush's promotion of his "faith based initiative" along with his overtly religious tone. It's not just George Bush though, several other public officials have voiced either support for more inclusion of religion in government affairs, or have spoken in opposition to restoring the tradition of secularism to the State arena.

 

This already shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the separation of Church and State, which simply means that the organized Church will not exercise political power over the State, and the State will not have a say in ecclesiastical matters. The separation of Church and State does not mean the separation of religion and politics, however.

 

See also the article Erring on the Side of Censorship -- a valedictorian was not allowed to mention Jesus in public! This is not what the First Amendment is about!

 

I'm just glad I live in Holland, where they don't really care about such things.

 

Gays are allowed to marry just like everyone else without redefining marriage. They are allowed to marry someone of the other sex, just like everyone else. Whether they want that or not is up to them...

[Open_Minded]

You are right that it was originally a country of religious freedom (for Protestants, initially!), but one doesn't exclude the other. In fact, the First Amendment was made to protect the freedom of speech of religious minorities.

(for Protestants, initially)?????

 

You're full of it - did you NOT catch that some of the founding Fathers were Deist. Deist is NOT Christian and so therefore NOT Protestant. Get your facts straight.

 

The First Amendment was made to protect the freedom of speech for ALL minorities - NOT JUST RELIGIOUS MINORITIES. But - as long as you interpret it that way - let's go with it. This is exactly why I am so proud of my daughter and her friends for going to their Choir director and asking that songs from other world religions be included in the Holiday celebration. In doing so they were protecting the rights of the religious minorities within our school system.

 

And in doing so they are honoring the long and full traditions of freedom of speech and separation of church and state in this country. And when our community gathers in a few weeks to hear the holiday concert and we listen to music from other world religions - we too will be participating in the long and full traditions of freedom of speech and separation of church and state. I hope the songs they choose will sing of peace on earth, because sitting in an audience of such varied people as our community represents and listening to music that promotes peace instead of division - will be a wonder within itself. I truly will feel the presence of Christ (the Alpha and Omega) in such an environment.

 

 

I'm just glad I live in Holland, where they don't really care about such things.

I'm glad you live in Holland, too... please stay there.

 

Gays are allowed to marry just like everyone else without redefining marriage. They are allowed to marry someone of the other sex, just like everyone else. Whether they want that or not is up to them...

As I said - I'm glad you live in Holland, please stay there... we've enough narrow-minded fundies right here in the USA.

[Turgonian]

Open_Minded: You're full of it - did you NOT catch that some of the founding Fathers were Deist. Deist is NOT Christian and so therefore NOT Protestant. Get your facts straight.

 

See Christianity and America, which lists all Founding Fathers and shows that America was largely founded by Bible-believing Christians. It also lists this interesting fact:

 

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

 

God bless America.

 

I noted that your article started with Thomas Paine, too. As shown in the article Were the Founding Fathers "Deists," "Freethinkers," and "Infidels?", 'It would be difficult to name a single one of the Founding Fathers who approved of Paine's Age of Reason, his famous tract attacking religion in general and evangelical Christianity in particular. Even less-than-evangelicals like Benjamin Franklin and the "Unitarians" all denounced Paine's book.'

 

Also, this site says:

 

Benjamin Franklin is widely regarded to be among the least religious of the founding fathers. However, his speech given to Congress on June 28, 1787 asking that Congress have a prayer every morning before conducting business was overtly religious in nature. The text of this speech can be viewed at the Library of Congress's web site at these links: Page 1, Page 2, Page 3.

 

Did you say aught about facts, lover of truth? How about this interesting statement (from here) by Thomas Paine?

 

Thomas Paine, in his discourse on “The Study of God,” forcefully asserts that it is “the error of schools” to teach sciences without “reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin.” He laments that “the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching [science without God] has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism.”

 

 

Open_Minded: The First Amendment was made to protect the freedom of speech for ALL minorities - NOT JUST RELIGIOUS MINORITIES. But - as long as you interpret it that way - let's go with it. This is exactly why I am so proud of my daughter and her friends for going to their Choir director and asking that songs from other world religions be included in the Holiday celebration. In doing so they were protecting the rights of the religious minorities within our school system.

 

Not just religious minorities -- yes, you're right there, although America was initially a refuge for the persecuted English Puritans.

By the way, did you know that René Descartes fled to Holland when the French authorities started to dislike him?

Freedom of speech is well and good, but a country should remain true to its tradition. Therefore, sing Christian Christmas songs in Europe and America and sing Hindu hymns in India -- at least at special happenings; of course people can sing anything they like on the streets or in their own buildings, &c.

 

Open_Minded: As I said - I'm glad you live in Holland, please stay there... we've enough narrow-minded fundies right here in the USA.

 

At least they tend to have Bible knowledge and thus protect culture, whereas atheists seem to keep opening doors to decadence and cultural decay...

[Seth C Triggs]

At least they tend to have Bible knowledge and thus protect culture, whereas atheists seem to keep opening doors to decadence and cultural decay...

 

Oh no, you did NOT just say that, did you?

 

All the wars and strife and cruelty you and your ilk foment, and you have the temerity to claim atheists are opening doors to "decadence" (Oh noes! People are having fun!).

 

And what's this "cultural decay?" People actually not trying to hide their sexuality? People having self-determination for their bodies?

 

About the only "cultural decay" I see tends to stem from religious cruelty and low self-esteem. (Oh, and the religous-guided violence too, of course.)

 

-Seth

[Kurari]

At least they tend to have Bible knowledge and thus protect culture, whereas atheists seem to keep opening doors to decadence and cultural decay...

 

Say WHAT? I think perhaps you should read this site a little more carefully. Many of the people here have knowledge of the Bible that tends to surpass that of most Christians. Some are even ex-clergy! And if it's the atheists who keep opening doors to decadence and cultural decay, why is it every day I seem to read about yet another pedophile priest or criminal who claims to be a "God Fearing Christian?" The Bible itself is full of some of the most horrendous atrocities humans can perform on one another. Talk about cultural decay...

 

And that site you pointed out is absolutely bogus. Like with the Bible, they are picking and choosing what quotes they want to say and twisting it to make it look like we were founded on Christianity. The Bible, Christianity, and Jesus is never ONCE mentioned in our Constitution. The 1796 treaty with Tripoli expressly states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

 

I am related to both Patrick Henry, who was a hell-fire and brimstone Bible pounding fundamentalist and Francis Scott Key, who was Episcopalian. Yet still we were NOT founded on religion. We were founded on economic ideal and freedom from England and it's oppressive rule. Religion is just one small part of the grievances we had against England. To tell the truth, it doesn't make one god-damned bit of difference what our founders personally believed. They didn't write into the Constitution "Rights for everybody except non-christians." Most of the Christian sects that came over here were fleeing the opinion they weren't actually Christians anyway.

 

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

[Turgonian]

Yeah, I did say it.

 

I do not foment any wars. Debate and discussion is all. Heated, maybe, but not bloody.

 

And yes: where 'fun' is the keyword of life, decadence sits enthroned and complacently surveying the wasted field. (How's that for a bit of rhetoric? )

The thing is, a flourishing culture places a lot more emphasis on duty & responsibility than fun.

 

Do you think the greater the amount of people 'not hiding sexuality' is, the greater the culture? Funny: I'd connect it to art, religion, a sense of responsibility and a common ideal.

 

All the great cultures in the world had a religion at their base, sorry. Unless you want to call Nazi Germany, Communistic Russia and Maoist China 'great cultures'...

[Seth C Triggs]

Yeah, I did say it.

 

I do not foment any wars. Debate and discussion is all. Heated, maybe, but not bloody.

 

I don't mean you personally. But I speak of religious people in general. Much blood has been spilt over matters of supernaturality.

 

And yes: where 'fun' is the keyword of life, decadence sits enthroned and complacently surveying the wasted field. (How's that for a bit of rhetoric? )

 

Ahh I see, so we just basically torture ourselves and we'll reach salvation. Or something. I'm not quite getting your drift here. What exactly are you driving at?

 

The thing is, a flourishing culture places a lot more emphasis on duty & responsibility than fun.

 

I don't see how having enjoyment in your life is mutually exclusive to duty and responsibilty. I am more than capable of providing more attention to duty and responsibility than fun. But in addition, I seek enjoyment out of life because I don't feel like making my own hell on earth. Your theology would seem to require me to have some sort of self-imposed hell on earth. I'm really going to get only one life, and if the god you worship is in existence and would throw me in hell for trying to be happy, well I'm going to do what I can to enjoy the here and now. I don't like being held hostage by sadistic people/gods/whatever.

 

Do you think the greater the amount of people 'not hiding sexuality' is, the greater the culture? Funny: I'd connect it to art, religion, a sense of responsibility and a common ideal.

 

But you see, it goes hand in hand. A society that has freedom at its base becomes one where people can be free to take care of their responsibilities, and create wonderful things as well. And on top of this, the people can have a great time of it. When the people are happy, social ills like crime decrease.

 

"Common ideals," however, do not require religion. There is a such thing as practicality. It is very practical to be nice to people; to help others.

 

All the great cultures in the world had a religion at their base, sorry. Unless you want to call Nazi Germany, Communistic Russia and Maoist China 'great cultures'...

 

Yes, Nazi Germany had Christianity at its base. Really, there's a lot of religion out there. But if you think about it, many of the great cultures in the world also had/have cities and art. It could just as easily be the reason for their being great. All tended to have technology that resulted in higher output of consumer goods. That could have been another reason.

 

I really don't think that religion should necessarily be implicated as the grand reason for a society succeeding. After all, religion is a very, very common thing and is part of a general human niche for supernaturality. That's the amount of stock I put in it, anyway.

 

-Seth

[Open_Minded]

<snip>

 

Well, Turgnian, it seems others have done an excellent job of answering your post. There really is nothing (of any value) that I could add...

 

However

 

At least they tend to have Bible knowledge and thus protect culture, whereas atheists seem to keep opening doors to decadence and cultural decay...

 

That statement made me laugh so hard - seriously -

 

If culture needs protecting - it's from the likes of people like you who feel they have the right to impose their "values" on the rest of us.

 

Freedom of speech, separation of church and state are at risk because of people like yourself. Freedom in general is at risk because of religious extremists in this world. If the most extreme amongst you had their way the United States would not have a democracy we would have a theocracy. I've seen the results of extremism in theocratic governments - it is - quite frankly - frightening.

 

And about atheists opening doors to decadence

 

Good grief - atheists aren't molesting little children in churches.....

 

Atheists aren't running huge mega moneymaking television "ministries" and ripping people off.....

Atheists aren't sitting in the White House and plotting to take us into ill-concieved wars with hidden agendas.

 

You can blame the fundies for all of those things.

 

 

Please I'll take atheist decadence any day - especially if it comes with a lot of dark chocolate decadence.

[Jun]

At least they tend to have Bible knowledge and thus protect culture

 

The only culture protected by Christians is their own.

 

Ask the Philippinos to tell you about their culture, oh I forgot, Christianity DESTROYED IT.

 

Ask a Mayan descendent about their culture, oh I forgot, Christianity DESTROYED IT.

 

Ask an Australian Aboriginal about their culture, oh I forgot, Christianity DESTROYED IT.

 

Here is a list of African Cultures and traditions destroyed by Christian conquest. - http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?opti...5&Itemid=36

[Turgonian]

Kurari: Say WHAT? I think perhaps you should read this site a little more carefully. Many of the people here have knowledge of the Bible that tends to surpass that of most Christians. Some are even ex-clergy!

 

And how eager are they to pass on Bible knowledge to younger generations?

 

Kurari: And if it's the atheists who keep opening doors to decadence and cultural decay, why is it every day I seem to read about yet another pedophile priest or criminal who claims to be a "God Fearing Christian?" The Bible itself is full of some of the most horrendous atrocities humans can perform on one another. Talk about cultural decay...

 

The Bible doesn't endorse cultural decay, and please specify 'some of the most horrendous atrocities humans can perform on one another'.

BTW, do you think pedophilia is very Christian? And on what basis do you say pedophilia is wrong?

 

Kurari: And that site you pointed out is absolutely bogus. Like with the Bible, they are picking and choosing what quotes they want to say and twisting it to make it look like we were founded on Christianity.

 

Something atheists might be guilty of at times, too.

But you can't deny Christianity has had a tremendous power in forming America. Or can you?

 

Kurari: The Bible, Christianity, and Jesus is never ONCE mentioned in our Constitution.

 

But maybe the Constitution was founded on the Bible, Christianity and Jesus.

 

Kurari: Religion is just one small part of the grievances we had against England. To tell the truth, it doesn't make one god-damned bit of difference what our founders personally believed. They didn't write into the Constitution "Rights for everybody except non-christians."

 

Neither would I.

 

Kurari: Most of the Christian sects that came over here were fleeing the opinion they weren't actually Christians anyway.

 

But they thought they were, didn't they? And they've been accepted as Christians since...so the vast majority of the English immigrants were Christians, I guess.

 

Seth C Triggs: I don't mean you personally. But I speak of religious people in general. Much blood has been spilt over matters of supernaturality.

 

Thanks. But an estimated 89.2% of real wars in human history were fought over matters unrelated to religion. (Someone arrived at this conclusion by checking the wars listed in Wikipedia, almost 500.)

 

Seth C Triggs: Ahh I see, so we just basically torture ourselves and we'll reach salvation. Or something. I'm not quite getting your drift here. What exactly are you driving at?

 

God forbid! We are not saved by our works...nor by torturing ourselves. It's just that 'fun' shouldn't be our primary goal in life.

 

Seth C Triggs: I don't see how having enjoyment in your life is mutually exclusive to duty and responsibilty. I am more than capable of providing more attention to duty and responsibility than fun.

 

You're the man. As long as people don't lose sight of the fact than there's more than fun, I won't complain.

 

Seth C Triggs: But in addition, I seek enjoyment out of life because I don't feel like making my own hell on earth. Your theology would seem to require me to have some sort of self-imposed hell on earth. I'm really going to get only one life, and if the god you worship is in existence and would throw me in hell for trying to be happy, well I'm going to do what I can to enjoy the here and now. I don't like being held hostage by sadistic people/gods/whatever.

 

Neither do I. I don't believe God is sadistic, and I believe Christ wants me to have life to the full. No torture. No 'self-imposed hell'. Just belief. Love God, love your neighbour, and do what you will.

 

Seth C Triggs: But you see, it goes hand in hand. A society that has freedom at its base becomes one where people can be free to take care of their responsibilities, and create wonderful things as well. And on top of this, the people can have a great time of it. When the people are happy, social ills like crime decrease.

 

"Common ideals," however, do not require religion. There is a such thing as practicality. It is very practical to be nice to people; to help others.

 

What do you think the Ten Commandments were for?

I just disagree with your rosy-coloured view of man. Unlike you think, religion is not the root of evil -- which is why Communism failed. People in general are too irrational to relish the idea of giving everything they have to others. I've read Dostoyevsky, who writes about very convincing people who cherish lofty ideals, but who find themselves consistently lacking. I've read Sartre, who discards the traditional (& practical) values in order to be an Existentialist who decides his own life and makes his own choices. From what we know of human history, self-centered persons are definitely not exceptional. And in most cases, religion isn't the cause of it (though this self-centeredness sometimes assumes religious forms).

 

Seth C Triggs: Yes, Nazi Germany had Christianity at its base.

 

No, it didn't. For one thing, it denied that all humans had equal value. And although Hitler acted like a Christian to win over the churches, these quotes are from him:

 

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.

 

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.

 

Open_Minded: If culture needs protecting - it's from the likes of people like you who feel they have the right to impose their "values" on the rest of us.

 

Come now. Every politican tries to impose his values on others. Even if a priest would delude himself into thinking there's really nothing wrong with pedophilia, there's still a law that forbids it and may prevent / punish his behaviour ('pedophilia is wrong' = imposed value, and rightly imposed too!).

 

Open_Minded: Atheists aren't running huge mega moneymaking television "ministries" and ripping people off.....

 

Most movies produced nowadays aren't very Christian, but still...

Anyway, I guess American Christians have also been influenced by American 'thinking big'. We don't have huge television ministries in our little land of mills.

 

Open_Minded: Freedom of speech, separation of church and state are at risk because of people like yourself.

 

No way -- I support freedom of speech (as long as it doesn't get too offensive). I also support separation of Church and State, which (as I said) doesn't mean separation of religion and politics.

When the separation of Church and State falls away, you get clericalism (the Church, as an entity, exercising political power over the State) or cesaropapism (the Church run by the State, like the Anglican Church). I support neither.

 

Jun: The only culture protected by Christians is their own.

 

Maybe so, but that was the culture I was talking about -- I was talking about American (& European) culture.

And please remember that Christianity didn't destroy those cultures -- greed did. Hernando Cortéz was after 'Aztec gold' (whether or not cursed by the 'heathen gods', as Captain Barbossa would have us believe ), not preaching.

[Jun]

Jun: The only culture protected by Christians is their own.

 

Maybe so, but that was the culture I was talking about -- I was talking about American (& European) culture.

 

You are coming over as a Neo-Nazi White-Supremacist, is that what you are?

 

And on what basis do you say pedophilia is wrong?

 

Are you sick?

 

I believe Christ wants me to have life to the full.

 

So does Zeus, and Hercules, and Atlas, and Mythra, and Apollo, and Minerva, and Saturn, and Amun ra, and Sekhmet, and Set, and ................................

 

What a cuckoo

[Kurari]

Kurari: Say WHAT? I think perhaps you should read this site a little more carefully. Many of the people here have knowledge of the Bible that tends to surpass that of most Christians. Some are even ex-clergy!

 

And how eager are they to pass on Bible knowledge to younger generations?

 

I can't speak for them on that. Hey people, how eager are you to discuss Bible knowledge to younger generations?

 

For myself, I'm happy to discuss Bible knowledge with the younger generations. Especially pointing out and discussing the atrocities, fallacies, and contradictions.

 

Kurari: And if it's the atheists who keep opening doors to decadence and cultural decay, why is it every day I seem to read about yet another pedophile priest or criminal who claims to be a "God Fearing Christian?" The Bible itself is full of some of the most horrendous atrocities humans can perform on one another. Talk about cultural decay...

 

The Bible doesn't endorse cultural decay, and please specify 'some of the most horrendous atrocities humans can perform on one another'.

 

Ok, I'll borrow Deuteronomy.

 

22:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain

 

25:12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her

 

15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

Deuteronomy is really quite disgusting. Stealing children of your enemies into slavery, stoning rape victims, cutting off body parts, destroying entirely civilizations...and that's just one book. This sort of thing shows up all throughout the Bible.

 

Here is a whole list for you.

 

List of Attocities of the Bible

 

BTW, do you think pedophilia is very Christian? And on what basis do you say pedophilia is wrong?

 

No, I don't think it's very Christian, nor do I think it's very Athiest, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or really has anything to do with religion. I'm just tired of listening to Christians peddle Jesus as snake oil or a magic bullet when it's pretty obvious He is not helping a great many people with their "darksides."

 

On what basis do I say pedophilia is wrong? On experience. I've BEEN the victim of a pedophile.

 

Kurari: And that site you pointed out is absolutely bogus. Like with the Bible, they are picking and choosing what quotes they want to say and twisting it to make it look like we were founded on Christianity.

 

Something atheists might be guilty of at times, too.

But you can't deny Christianity has had a tremendous power in forming America. Or can you?

 

Well, first, what are we talking about? America in general or the founding principles? We were talking about founding principles and the founding fathers before. If we're talking about America in general now I'd say it's have a lot of influence (and we're worse for wear for it in my opinion), but I deny that it's had a lot to do with the founding principles. It's pretty conspiculously absent from that.

 

Kurari: The Bible, Christianity, and Jesus is never ONCE mentioned in our Constitution.

 

But maybe the Constitution was founded on the Bible, Christianity and Jesus.

 

Okaaaay, that was really pretty nonsensical. I don't remember reading in the Bible anywhere Jesus talking about things like setting up and maintaining a Navy, laying down rules for House and Senate, and defining Presidential powers.

[♦ ficino ♦]

But you can't deny Christianity has had a tremendous power in forming America. Or can you?

 

Kurari: The Bible, Christianity, and Jesus is never ONCE mentioned in our Constitution.

 

But maybe the Constitution was founded on the Bible, Christianity and Jesus.

 

Kurari: Religion is just one small part of the grievances we had against England. To tell the truth, it doesn't make one god-damned bit of difference what our founders personally believed. They didn't write into the Constitution "Rights for everybody except non-christians."

 

Amen, Kurari. Turgonian, Islam had tremendous power in forming Iraq, no? Does that make it true? You are a master of the irrelevant. The Enlightenment contributed more to our American constitution than did the Bible.

 

Kurari, I was in Seattle this week; great town.

[Kurari]

Amen, Kurari. Turgonian, Islam had tremendous power in forming Iraq, no? Does that make it true? You are a master of the irrelevant. The Enlightenment contributed more to our American constitution than did the Bible.

 

Kurari, I was in Seattle this week; great town.

 

 

Thanks! Hope our sudden and bizarre snowstorms didn't trip you up too much.

[Clergicide]

But you can't deny Christianity has had a tremendous power in forming America.

 

Actually it did. It was recognizing the detrimental influence of the Christian religion on government that inspired the 1st Amendment. 1st one out of the box castrates our government's ability to endorse or sponsor any religion. Since Christianity was the only religion on our soil at the time..who do you think that was directed at?

 

This document by James Madison will show you just why the Founding Fathers weren't interested in having Christianity associated in any way to the new government. Make sure to read 7 and 11.

 

James Madison -Memorial and Remonstrance-

[Open_Minded]

Open_Minded: If culture needs protecting - it's from the likes of people like you who feel they have the right to impose their "values" on the rest of us.

 

Come now. Every politican tries to impose his values on others. Even if a priest would delude himself into thinking there's really nothing wrong with pedophilia, there's still a law that forbids it and may prevent / punish his behaviour ('pedophilia is wrong' = imposed value, and rightly imposed too!).

Hence the need for separation of church and state. Hence the need for a democratic form of government - in which people can vote the religious zealots out of office should they go too far with their imposition of values upon the overall culture. As I said earlier - I'm happy you live in Holland - please stay there. We have enouigh religious zealots in this country. I affirm daily that our democratic form of government gives us all the tools necessary to vote the zealots out of office and take back a government that by design is "of the people, by the people and for the people". And in this country that means a government that is of a people who are no longer soley Christian - a diversity which I am thankful for on a daily basis.

 

 

 

Open_Minded: Freedom of speech, separation of church and state are at risk because of people like yourself.

 

No way -- I support freedom of speech (as long as it doesn't get too offensive). I also support separation of Church and State, which (as I said) doesn't mean separation of religion and politics.

When the separation of Church and State falls away, you get clericalism (the Church, as an entity, exercising political power over the State) or cesaropapism (the Church run by the State, like the Anglican Church). I support neither.

That response is quite ironic, actually, Turgnian..... considering that earlier in this same thread you wrote the following:

 

I'd say it shouldn't be a problem if Christian songs are sung

(even exclusively)

in Europe and America. After all, those are traditionally Christian nations. You can't just change or neglect history...

You say you support freedom of speech until there is a possibility that Christians may have to give up the exclusive privilege of singing only songs from their tradition even though the population has a minority representation of people from other world religions. That's the problem I have with people like you. Your positions on such things are duplicitous. You say one thing and do another.