When I Stopped Gambling With Eternity...open Email To Mark

October 30, 2006

Rumplestiltskin,

you obviously have not read mark's original post,, or ruby's full challenge to him,

You have walked into the middle of the thread, and decided to be the expert without first doing the background research.

October 31, 2006

Mark says:

Ruby,

In my final posting to ex-C I offered 5 points, the first of which I said I would not be posting to the ex-C website anymore, so of course I won't.

God has also made me aware that there is no such thing as an "ex-Christian". That's like saying you are the ex-daughter of your parents. You can't undo what God has already done. So you can call yourself whatever you desire. But an ex-Christian you are not, it does not exist. You may have become a disobedient Christian or a backsliding Christian or an AWOL Christian but the fact of the matter is clear: once you were born you became your parents daughter and that can not be undone not even through death, you will always be the daughter of your parents. Once you accepted the gift of salvation and became a child of God you will always be a child of God. However if you never accepted Christ's gift of salvation through His blood in the first place then you never became a Christian so the term shouldn't even be used. However, I am led to believe that everyone on the ex-C website did become a Christian at one point and have accepted the gift of salvation, which means they also were born again as a child of God. So since there is no such thing as an ex-Christian then isn't the ex-C website pretty much just a support group for runaway Christians and should be labeled something else?

My apology for coming across as arrogant in my previous email, I'm just trying to be direct and I'm not much good at sugar coating things. You already know what I'll say next.......I'm not perfect Ruby, just forgiven by the blood of Christ. I struggle in my realtionship with God just like everyone on the website. Maybe the only difference is I haven't given up on God and perhaps this whole experience of stumbling on to the ex-C website was just so God could let you all know that even if you've given up on God and now deny He exists, He hasn't given up on you. Once you're born, you're born. How do you become unborn? He'll wait.

Grace and peace to you,

Mark

Ruby says:

So you are of the "once saved always saved" persuasion? That makes your argument re gambling with eternity null and void. If God has not given up on us he will not send us to hell because that would obviously be giving up. A more logical conclusion, as seen from a Christian perspective, would be that God sends the dead unbeliever to purgatory where more learning is possible so that in the end all will be with God. Thus, there can be no gambling.

As for what you said in your "final" contribution to exC, I looked for it and cannot find anything from you except the email in

Quit Gambling with Eternity

. Where did you post it and under what name?

Edit: added my response to Mark

October 31, 2006

Rumplestiltskin,
you obviously have not read mark's original post,, or ruby's full challenge to him,

You have walked into the middle of the thread, and decided to be the expert without first doing the background research.

Thank you, D Laurier! Much appreciated.

October 31, 2006

I emailed Mark as well:

"The post you left on www.exchristian.net is hilarious. I actually thought you were being serious. But then I read "your are real." Ha! MAJOR 1337 speak, dude. And the "double dare ya" crap? I cried, it was so funny. whenever you can, you should return to the site and make another post straightening out the fact that you, too, do not believe, and it was all a joke. Because nobody that believes could be THAT insincere unless they were trying to believe but knew better."

This, in perfect condescending rendition, was his reply:

"sorry to dissapoint you but no joke and I'm a serious believer in God and His son Jesus Christ."

. . . indeed. Ever notice how true believers seem to have never been introduced to our good friend, the comma?

After some time, having read Ruby's emails to Mark, I emailed him back again, and am awaiting a response:

"The only one who should be experiencing any dissapoint whatsoever here, Mark, is you: you perform a hit and run on a website without fully understanding its nature or purpose, and then dissapear, your back turned to any refutations. There are choice words for such behavior. The samurai would have called that cowardice. I do call it cowardice.

The thing you fail to realize, Mark, is that we've all already TRIED your little prayer, the double dare unnecessary. That is why the site is called WWW.EXCHRISTIAN.NET. We've been there. Done that. We were given no t-shirts for our efforts. Your God failed to answer our prayers or hear our calls.

Of course, it goes without saying that you will claim it is WE who did not try hard enough, but you made the statement yourself that if we just tried, God would answer, or you implied it. So when we are left with nothing, what are we supposed to do? Keep trying? Pretend to try? Pretened it worked?Your God failed to change our lives.

It's followers succeeded only in making our lives miserable. Its theology answered none of our questions, and its figurehead did little more than antagonize us.

What, oh, what, is a person in such an unhappy situation supposed to do?

There is, of course, only one correct answer: leave.

You see, Mark, that is why we are EX-CHRISTIANS: we left. we once were there, but now am gone, we left the fold, we left the throng, were blind but now we see. We've alreasy given your God the invitation. The space at the table, for reasons only it is supposed to answer, is empty. Don't blame us, Mark: we handed out the cards. It's up to your God to show up. And it hasn't. So sue us for leaving the party.

Why does your God refuse to answer? Don't tell me we're not trying hard enough, or that we should believe: YOU said God would appear if we just TRIED. We did. Your God fucked up. Where, oh, where, has my little God gone, oh, where, oh, where can he be?"

Mark is just another typical Christian looking for validation of his One True Belief . God does not answer, so he comes running to those outside of the flock, hoping we will somehow look evil and horrid in comparison with his empty, meaningless faith. When it doesn't work out that way, he turns to the tried-and-true logical fallacies. Ho-hum.

Ruby, your responses are spot-on. Keep handing him his ass. Here's a few things you could add, if you so like:

"God has also made me aware that there is no such thing as an "ex-Christian". That's like saying you are the ex-daughter of your parents. You can't undo what God has already done."

Response:

So God makes us Christian?

What, then, is the point of free will? What, then, is the point of Hell if we are not free to decide that we are Christian or not? Why does your God make a Hell if it is God that makes people Christian or not? What happened to accepting the blood sacrifice? Is your God so sadistic that it makes people Christian, and then sends them to Hell?

"So you can call yourself whatever you desire. But an ex-Christian you are not, it does not exist. You may have become a disobedient Christian or a backsliding Christian or an AWOL Christian but the fact of the matter is clear: once you were born you became your parents daughter and that can not be undone not even through death, you will always be the daughter of your parents. Once you accepted the gift of salvation and became a child of God you will always be a child of God. However if you never accepted Christ's gift of salvation through His blood in the first place then you never became a Christian so the term shouldn't even be used."

Response:

The problem with your analogy is that while biological links between parent and child exist, the links between your God and man are non-existent. One can prove the connection between parent and child through DNA testing. There exists no such test to determine the credibility to your claim that your God makes people Christian and then sends them to Hell. By the same token, it is very easy to illustrate that someone was once a Christian and is now not. This website is full of those examples. There are psychological tests to determine if a person actually believes something or not. There are symptoms to the psychological disorder known as 'Christianity' that can be easily seen and verified. Many of us had them; many of us know people that had them. If that does not satisfy you, there are therapists that have helped people deconvert from Christianity. THOSE people had the symptoms, as verified by the therapists in question.

But your analogy does have one truth to it: one cannot undo the fact that they once believed in Christianity. This is very much true. None of us can rid ourselves of the reality that we used to believe the things you believe. We can, however, presently refuse to accept those teachings, just as a person can refuse to accept their biological parents. One can undo their connections with their biological parents in that they can lock them out of their lives.

"However, I am led to believe that everyone on the ex-C website did become a Christian at one point and have accepted the gift of salvation, which means they also were born again as a child of God. So since there is no such thing as an ex-Christian then isn't the ex-C website pretty much just a support group for runaway Christians and should be labeled something else?"

Response:

Have you ever been overweight, Mark? Or underweight? I used to be overweight when I was a child. I've since gone on to compete in marathons, triathlons, martial arts competitions, and bodybuilding competitions. I am no longer overweight. I am no longer Christian. It's a very simple thing to grasp. If a person once believed in the tenets of Christianity, but does not any longer, then they are ex-Christian. No ifs, ands or buts about it. You can say that one WAS a Christian: that never changes. But having been something does not make a person something for the rest of their lives. Would you say that a thief that has only stolen once is always a thief? why would you, if they have only stolen once? In order to be a thief, one must be stealing presently. If I have stolen once, and am referred to as a thief, that is a misnomer. If I am now the proper weight, then I cannot be overweight, even though I was once overweight.

You can play at this idea of once a Christian, always a Christian, but it simply doesn't work. It's logically unsound. The human mind doesn't work that way. and if you are once a Christian, always a Christian, then you have just given the entire world the rights to do what they like. You have just made the statement that if you accept Jesus christ, you can go on to murder, rape and kill without remorse or consequence. Don't deny it: you haven't said anything about Christianity being about doing good things, only that once a Christian, always a Christian.

"My apology for coming across as arrogant in my previous email, I'm just trying to be direct and I'm not much good at sugar coating things. You already know what I'll say next.......I'm not perfect Ruby, just forgiven by the blood of Christ."

Response:

See above. christianity is not about doing good things. Christianity is solely about saving oneself from Hell by thinking the right thoughts. Since Christianity offers nothing whatsoever in the way of improving the lives of eople that cannot be found ELSEWHERE, Christianity must rely on the threat of Hell.

"I struggle in my realtionship with God just like everyone on the website."

Response:

None of us are struggling with your God, Mark. If you get anything out of this experience, know that. One cannot struggle with something one knows to be unreal. I do not struggle with pink unicorns, because pinks unicorns do not exist. I do not struggle with the Starship Enterprise, because the Starship Enterprise does not exist. I do not struggle with your God, because your God does not exist. Get it yet? None of us are threatened by your God because we know it IS NOT THERE.

"Maybe the only difference is I haven't given up on God and perhaps this whole experience of stumbling on to the ex-C website was just so God could let you all know that even if you've given up on God and now deny He exists, He hasn't given up on you. Once you're born, you're born. How do you become unborn? He'll wait. Grace and peace to you,Mark

Response:

wait, wait, wait . . . lemme get this straight . . . we've given up on God? But . . . I thought we were STILL CHRISTIAN?

If we are STILL CHRISTIAN . . . and being CHRISTIAN means accepting GOD . . . then how can we BE CHRISTIAN and ACCEPT GOD?

Face it Mark, you are in the typical Christian position: you want your cake, and you want to eat it, too. You want to say that once a Christian, always a Christian so you can attack the site, but you want to say that we're not Christian like you, and therefore are not Christian. Get over yourself, Mark.

October 31, 2006

anybody else think that Mark may be recovering from a gambling addiction?

October 31, 2006

Sweet so I guess if the whole babble story is true, I'm still going to heaven. I like how he said, " this whole experience of stumbling on to the ex-C website was just so God could let you all know that even if you've given up on God and now deny He exists, He hasn't given up on you." Mormons seem to stumble on over to my apartment every other week, so which god is really trying to talk to me?

And Trancelation, you didn't get a t-shirt? I got like a thousand of em.

October 31, 2006

Sweet so I guess if the whole babble story is true, I'm still going to heaven. I like how he said, " this whole experience of stumbling on to the ex-C website was just so God could let you all know that even if you've given up on God and now deny He exists, He hasn't given up on you." Mormons seem to stumble on over to my apartment every other week, so which god is really trying to talk to me?

And Trancelation, you didn't get a t-shirt? I got like a thousand of em.

I am beginning to suspect it was lost in the mail. www.godhatesfedex.com

November 1, 2006

Hey, I'm glad to see others are also posting responses from Mark. I'll read those in a bit. First I want to post the latest that just came in. Seems he sent something to Dave that did not get posted. Or I just didn't find it. Since I am in the habit of posting his emails I guess I'll post this one too and see where things go.

Mark says:

Hi RubyHere is the second posting submitted to ex-C after I reveiwed everyone's comments to the original posting but perhaps the webmatster chose not to post it. Grace and peace to you,Mark

Wow, one would think by age 49 I would have blogged before but unfortunately for you all this my first. Not too good at it huh? WEll, sorry for the delay but I've been short on hours and it took a bit to read everyones comments. I'm not a hit and run Christain. My email is Prov616@yahoo.com. My name is Mark and I live in Tempe, Arizona. So a few final comments and then you can ignore me or email me or if you live in metro Phx meet and tell me how much you dislike me. (1.) We all agree on one point, this website is for ex-christian and therefore I do not belong here so this will be my last post. (2.) To those who have called out to God and received nothing then I guess I have to stand corrected. You proved me wrong. (3.) No, I do not have experience with this website and I am therefore ignorant of your purpose but I had thought my email was to the webmaster only and not a posting. Albeit no regrets as you have opened my eyes to the widespread disdain for religion (good) and for God (not so good). (4.) Still my posting is true on two points. First you keep using other people to prove God's existence and secondly everyone bets that there is a God or there is not. I'm betting there is. You are betting there is not. One of us is wrong. (5.) I have an unfair advantage over most if not all of you so I apologise if I came across to be arrogant. My son at age 2 died in my arms. I called upon Jesus and He literally raised him from death. He's 25 now. How can I not believe?

Grace and peace to you,

Mark

November 1, 2006

My reply to Mark's last email:

It's posted now. I have been posting this entire correspondence as I indicated earlier. I will respond to some of your points.

<(3.) No, I do not have experience with this website and I am therefore ignorant of your purpose but I had thought my email was to the webmaster only and not a posting.>

Mark, do you hear what you are saying. You are saying that you encountered a service to humanity, didn't like it at first sight, but without even researching its purpose, goal, or reason for existence, you wrote a scathing email to the provider of this service. Do you realize how absolutely arrogant and coarse that is? It is the equivilent of an imam straight from Iraq walking into your pastor's office while he is preparing Sunday's sermon and pronouncing it evil in the sight of Allah--all without knowing a single thing about Christianity.

Mark, you had every opportunity to read up on its purpose before writing that email.

No, you are very wrong on both points. A sensitive conscientious person would not presume to make such sweeping false statements about fellow humans as you are making about us.

WRONG. Read our posts and learn. Christians who do so *with an open mind wishing to learn* are respected.

You are just plain wrong.

<I'm betting there is.>

That's right. You're the one who is doing the betting in this situation. The rest of us have more important things to think about. Life and death are such serious business that we cannot afford to waste our precious time on this planet betting. Someone suggests you may be a recovering gambler. I doubt it because you talk like the regular fundy but your language provides reason for the question.

Mark, would you please stop lying about other people? Ex-Christians consider lying to be a major offense. Even your supposedly real God says through (supposedly) Moses, and it is repeated by (supposedly) Jesus, not to bear false witness. Thus, I know it is part of your christian teachings.

You are bearing false witness, Mark. Jesus said that failing in but one tiny part of the law makes a person guilty of violating the whole. You have committed an offense before your Almighty God by bearing false witness against people who have forsaken all--in many cases family rejected us--for the sake of truth. How do you expect to escape judgment?

<(5.) I have an unfair advantage over most if not all of you so I apologise if I came across to be arrogant. My son at age 2 died in my arms. I called upon Jesus and He literally raised him from death. He's 25 now. How can I not believe?>

Well, don't be so arrogant! The same thing happens to exChristians all the time. They just don't make such a fuss about it, nor do they stake the rest of their life decisions on it. It is evidence of only one thing: Sometimes a body seems to be dead but is not complely dead. If you do a bit of research you will find that undertakers perform a special procedure to be absolutely sure a body is dead before being disposed of. There are very strict laws around the disposal of human bodies. Too many people have been buried alive. A doctor's pronouncement is not enough. You can be very sure that your son had not died; it only appeared like it.

<(2.) To those who have called out to God and received nothing then I guess I have to stand corrected. You proved me wrong.>

We are legion. The rest of your email proves that you do not accept our testimonies. Why do you disbelieve the testimonies of so many people?

No thanks. We have a peace you don't know of nor can you find it so long as you cling to your present delusions. As for grace, you seem not to know what it is.

Re your question: How can I not believe?

You are taking a rather common feat of nature as a special sign from god. That is a common mistake christians make. Without special signs and wonders they do not believe. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who do not see yet believe." We do not see but we believe in Truth and in Life all the same.

<I'm not a hit and run Christain.>

You have not yet proven this. You have not disappeared at the first resistence but you have not yet proven anything besides arrogance and egotism and normal fundy persistence that you are right no matter what evidence is brought forth. You have not yet entered serious debate.

When the topic gets a bit difficult or complicated, as in my last email to you, you change topic and tactic. You are very evasive. Normally, only people who have something to hide act like this. What do you have to hide?

November 1, 2006

Trancelation, Post 29, you have some wonderful ideas there. Since he obviously welcomes continued correspondence, you could write him another letter. Feel free to use the quotes from my letters to remind him what you are responding to. Just document it as quotes from me.

He may not know my screen name (I've been using my email which has my real name on it) but one would hope he recognizes his own writing. He seems bright enough to make the connection if you mention that Ruby is my screen name.

He seems to be playing "dodge the issue" at the moment. I'm calling him on it. He seems to be getting a bit "hot under the collar." Did you notice how he claimed not to be a "hit and run" Christian? Apparently he doesn't like the accusation. Seems he can still think and feel. Not a total goner.

Eventually he will have to come to the realization that the very fact that there are so many of us and that we all bring the same message--perhaps there is some truth to what we are saying. Perhaps he needs to check his god out more deeply. Of course, that is wishful thinking but all the same, feel free to go ahead and write him another letter. Most people notice when their inbox gets clogged with unwanted messages.

November 1, 2006

Reminder to Mark:

I've been looking over the messages I sent you. I see that I raised quite a number of serious discussion topics but you avoided responding to a single one. An all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful God is able to provide answers for these questions. If your faith is real you will not fear attempting to address the issues raised. One thing I know. While I was a Christian I did not hesitate to address topics thrown at me by non-Christians.

To this day I can and do argue for the Christian perspective if this seems appropriate. I want all parties to fully understand all sides of the issue. Many times nonChristians will not look at obvious Christian perspectives so I argue for those perspectives, clearly indicating whether I am speaking for myself or for someone else. CONSEQUENCE: Atheists and Christians reject me and say I belong to the other camp.

MORAL: I understand Christian concepts and world view. I can speak your language if you condescend to take me on. When and if you earn my respect I might be able to learn something from you. Of course, I expect the learning to be mutual. So long as you think of me as a sinner, backslidden Christian, or whatever, you will not gain my respect. By the way, I do not know what a AWOL Christian is. I come from a horse and buggy Mennonite community. That is pietism influenced by evangelicalism/fundamentalism and uses somewhat different language and vocabulary. In addition, my first langauge is not English. Thus, I think I am justified in not knowing all the short-hand you do.

One more note. Christians do come onto our forum. And if they are decent they get treated decently. If they are at all arrogant and self-righteous like you so obviously are they get treated to their own medicine. More often than not, they then complain that we are disrespectful of them. That, of course, would be correct.

Now if they knew about playing fair, they would recognize that they were likewise disrespectful of us. Of course, we exCs know that it is completely beside the point and futile to try and explain this to a fundy in the heat of battle. That is why I am presenting you with the idea *before* the heat of the battle. You seem like a fairly intelligent and well-educated person. Perhaps the idea will take root and bear fruit.

Just so you know, I write every one of these messages as though for a public forum. I post them either immediately before or immediately after sending them. That is the only way I can deal with your type. So severely has your type--people who talk like you--abused me. Yet you suggest I invite the god of these abusers into my heart. Possibly you are insane. The problem with that assumption is that I know what insane people are like and you are not like them.

In spite of all that, it is because of the theology and NOT because of how certain people have treated me, that I am not a Christian. I think I speak for a large number of exChristians. "ExChristian" simply means a person who once was, and no longer is, a Christian. You tried to refute this. However, since you have not yet answered my challenge to that refutation I must assume you do understand the concept of exChristian.

November 2, 2006

Mark says:

Hi Ruby,

Having recieved 2 emails from you I'll try to combine them into one and for the sake of clarity how about if we categorize the topics so that perhaps I can keep the questions straight. I propose the topics to be the ex-C Website, Christianity and the Bible (not sure about this topic other than you quote a lot of scripture so I suppose it should be here. Still I can't figure out why you quote so much scripture if you don't believe the scriptures are true.) Feel free to add a topic as you see fit.

THE EX-C WEBSITE:

1. Having realized there is no such thing as an ex-Christian then that would make the ex-C web-site invalid. I certainly do not see it as a service to humanity but that's just my opinion. I think of service to humanity as a homeless shelter or something of that nature.

2. I truly think my email was far from scathing.

3. I don't wish to particpate because I'm not into debates and I'm not into a group of people trying to intellectualize something they don't believe in. I believe in the bible. Every word. I believe God is exactly who He says He is. I wasn't born to debate it or convince others they need to believe it. I was put here to live it. So despite your opinion that I'm arrogant and insesitive and whatever else, the people who I encounter on a day to day basis use many different words to describe me, like "good friend", "righteous", "kind", "generous", "a God send", "an angel". This is not a boast I'm just quoting the words I hear and I'm trying to tell you that my lack of articulation over emails is not what my friends and family judge me by. I am judged by my actions and your assessment of me is incorrect. If you want to say I can't write for crap and my writing is arrogant, then Ok, I never claimed to be an author.

CHRISTIANITY:

1. There is only one true God.

2. Yes you are betting. If you do not stand for God then you stand against God. There is no middle ground.

3. No I'm not a gambler, yes I have been to vegas and no I have never been addicted to gambling but yes I am betting that the God I serve is the real one. I'm betting my life on it.

4. I think of everyone as a sinner, especially me. Where's the debate here? If I wasn't a sinner I wouldn't need God's mercy and grace and the gift of His son's blood to redeem me from my sin. I am above no one.

5. I completely understand the concept of ex-Christian. And now I understand there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. Tell me what steps you would have to take to be the ex-daughter of your parents and I'll change my mind.

6. An AWOL Christian is an Absent With Out Leave Christian. A Christian not authorized to leave Christ.

THE BIBLE:

1. I am neither lying nor bearing false witness. And yes God hates lying. Proverbs chapter 6. (note the email address)

2. Grace is unmerrited favor.

Grace and peace to you,

Mark

Comment to other exCs: Note how he disregards my objection to his "grace and peace."

My response:

Mark,

I am sure you are a good and lovable person with those who agree with your religion. But you are very arrogant and self-righteous (holier than thou) with people you think are on the way to hell. I realize you don't understand how we make out these offenses. I will try to explain:

1. You told Dave to stop gambling. Gambling is a bad thing. Thus, in effect you were telling Dave that he is doing something bad. Apparently you believe you are above doing this bad thing. That is self-righteousness.

2. You judged that Dave was gambling based on YOUR understanding of reality. That is intolerably arrogant; it totally disregards his understanding of reality.

3. You do not accept that any other reality could exist apart from your own world view. That is arrogant and unacceptable.

4. You have no evidence for your belief in God, yet you presume to condemn, mock, cajole people who do not believe in God. I don't know what that is but it is not good and right.

You addressed a number of issues in this email.

1. How I can use scripture and not accept Jesus as my Saviour.

2. What topics we should discuss

3. Definitions

Regarding #1. I can answer that question quite easily and adequately. However, you have proven that you will not accept my testimony and experiences as valid or legitimate. Jesus said not to throw pearls to the pigs or treasures to the dogs. Because of the disrespect you so blatantly demonstrate of me and my friends, I will not answer your question in any more depth at this point.

Regarding #2. It is disrespectful of you, and comes across as controlling behaviour, to discount the many topics of discussion I have presented in my emails to you. I will not accept your offers of discussion until you have adequately (in my mind) responded to the questions I presented. As a human being, I deserve that much respect. I will send a separate email with the list of those questions, since you seem to have lost them.

Regarding #3. You reject definitions I, and other ex-Christians, use to define our experiences. It is totally presumptuous, disrespectful, and insulting of the deepest kind that you disregard our self-definition, which is based on our experiences. Thus, you disregard not only our self-definition but also our very life experiences.

Mark, I will engage you in discussion only if and when you demonstrate respect for me as a person worthy of respect on a level equal to yourself. This includes the acknowledgement that my beliefs are just as legitimate and valid as your own. You have yet to demonstrate such respect.

Ruby

Former Questions and Discussion Topics

Here are the questions I put to you for discussion. You have not responded to a single one of them.

Oct. 30, 2006:

Mark: 4. You believe you are no longer in the game. (which again is impossible because you are a living human being and thus you are in the game)

Ruby: I am a living human being alright. But obviously I am not in the Christian game anymore. Nor am I playing any other game. Life is too short and serious for games. What game do you think I am in?

Oct. 31, 2006

So you are of the "once saved always saved" persuasion? That makes your argument re gambling with eternity null and void. If God has not given up on us he will not send us to hell because that would obviously be giving up. A more logical conclusion, as seen from a Christian perspective, would be that God sends the dead unbeliever to purgatory where more learning is possible so that in the end all will be with God. Thus, there can be no gambling.

Oct. 31, 2006

Mark: <I'm betting there is.>

Ruby: That's right. You're the one who is doing the betting in this situation. The rest of us have more important things to think about. Life and death are such serious business that we cannot afford to waste our precious time on this planet betting.

Mark: <You are betting there is not.>

Ruby: Mark, would you please stop lying about other people? Ex-Christians consider lying to be a major offense. Even your supposedly real God says through (supposedly) Moses, and it is repeated by (supposedly) Jesus, not to bear false witness. Thus, I know it is part of your christian teachings.

You are bearing false witness, Mark. Jesus said that failing in but one tiny part of the law makes a person guilty of violating the whole. You have committed an offense before your Almighty God by bearing false witness against people who have forsaken all--in many cases family rejected us--for the sake of truth. How do you expect to escape judgment?

Mark: <(2.) To those who have called out to God and received nothing then I guess I have to stand corrected. You proved me wrong.>

Ruby: We are legion. The rest of your email proves that you do not accept our testimonies. Why do you disbelieve the testimonies of so many people?

Ruby: When the topic gets a bit difficult or complicated, as in my last email to you, you change topic and tactic. You are very evasive. Normally, only people who have something to hide act like this. What do you have to hide?

When and if you acknowledge that my beliefs are just as valid and legitimate as your own, I will engage you in discussion of these issues. You do not have to accept my beliefs as your own, but you must acknowledge that my beliefs are just as good as your own--they are just different. You can do this and remain a Christian.

Ruby

changed my mind....

I looked at the stuff. You just repeat stuff I have already refuted. You disbelieve anything and everything I say that does not fit your own paradigm. That's the height of arrogance.

Comment to other exCs: I guess this puts him up against the wall. He seems to feel driven to respond to every email I write. He has to respond to every email I write in order to prove that he is not a hit and run Christian. I will not continue discussion unless and untill he demonstrates respect *as spelled out.*

Mark is running out of resources! A few minutes after I sent my last message he responds:

Mark: And you have done exactly the same. Welcome to the height of arrogance.

Ruby: Such as?

November 3, 2006

Exactly WHAT have I done to deserve being categorized with Mark as arrogant?

Here is what he has done:

He has denied our right to our beliefs and our identity.

He does not allow us to identify as ex-Christians because he does not believe such a thing exists. He even claims to have a word from God on it.

He denies our right to put aside the question about the belief of God's existence. He insists that we are betting on God's existence. He refuses to believe our own testimonies on the matter. In so doing he claims access to our very thoughts and intents of the heart.

He has openly told me what he believes about God, the Bible, and the afterlife. I posted it here. When have we ever denied him the right to his beliefs? When have we ever denied him the right to call himself a Christian—when have we ever told him that no such thing exists as a Christian?

Never! Never have we denied him his right to his beliefs, core identity, and beliefs.

I found a juicy morsel on the internet. A young man is asking his fellow fundies how to reconcile scientific knowledge with Christian belief. He admits freely to not having answers for unbelievers on some of these matters. Now THAT is honesty! I predict that this young man is headed to our forum. It might take another couple decades.

Of course, there is always the chance that he will take the advice on his fellows and freeze his heart about truth and just focus on his relationship with christ. I just liked seeing someone being honest with himself and his fellows, and even with the public (the forum is open to the public).

November 3, 2006

Wow. What an asshat.

How Xians can imagine that it's not sheer arrogance to claim exclusive knowledge and understanding of god is beyond me.

I love his insistence that everybody here is really still Xian. It's kind of like if he closes his eyes and plugs his ears and shouts loudly enough, the reality of the existence of ex-Xians will go away. Any excuse to protect one's meme, I suppose.

Seems the pot is calling the kettle black with the whole gambling thing, too. Tell me how it isn't a gamble to place one's faith in a deity that can't be demonstrated to exist, who makes promises that can't even be fulfilled until after one dies, and which might be withdrawn at any point if a believer screws up badly enough. Yeah. Tell me how that isn't gambling.

Pascal's Wager is a piss-poor defense of any religion anyway. I suspect the gambling theme probably comes from having said wager in mind, perhaps?

Anyway, good with the answers, RubySera. I'm sitting back and munchin' popcorn and enjoying the show heartily.

Exactly WHAT have I done to deserve being categorized with Mark as arrogant?

Short answer: Nothing.

Longer answer: Nothing. He's just projecting as a way of attempting to cover up his own attitude problem.

I see through it. You've answered him well. I know very well that if he dropped the attitude problem and continued in the respectful vein that he seemed to adopt initially, he'd be met with largely the same consideration here. But since he's chosen to be a condescending asshat, I'd say the gloves are off.

Keep up the good work.

November 3, 2006

Gwenmead, thank you! It sure feels good to know somebody cares. I was beginning to think I deserve all I'm getting simply for entering conversation with a known fundy.

Wow. What an asshat.

How Xians can imagine that it's not sheer arrogance to claim exclusive knowledge and understanding of god is beyond me.

Thanks for giving me some perspective on this. All I knew for sure was that we always tell Christians they are arrogant. And it seemed correct. But when he turns the tables....well, like most humans I am vulnerable to discouragement once in a while.

I love his insistence that everybody here is really still Xian.

That's ludicrous! Seems he just has to have an excuse for disagreeing. So he gets god on his side. Probably can't get his fellow fundies to agree so all he has left is god.

Seems the pot is calling the kettle black with the whole gambling thing, too. Tell me how it isn't a gamble to place one's faith in a deity that can't be demonstrated to exist, who makes promises that can't even be fulfilled until after one dies, and which might be withdrawn at any point if a believer screws up badly enough. Yeah. Tell me how that isn't gambling.

I may be wrong, but my guess is this is his badge of humility. He openly professes to be gambling. Note how many times he says that he's betting God exists? He's gambling. He's humble enough to admit it. We--these evil AWOL (away without leave) Christians--refuse to confess we are gambling. So yes oh yes! he's gambling. The difference is he KNOWS he's RIGHT. As for us--he KNOWS we're WRONG. See how it all works on HIS ideas? How is that NOT arrogant?

Pascal's Wager is a piss-poor defense of any religion anyway. I suspect the gambling theme probably comes from having said wager in mind, perhaps?

I would almost bet my life on it except I don't bet. In other words, yes, Pascal's Wager comes up all the time on all the religion forums. I've seen quite a number of exC arguments (maybe not on here) as to how lame a religion is and how weak a person's faith must be if they need this kind of thing to keep them faithful.

Anyway, good with the answers, RubySera. I'm sitting back and munchin' popcorn and enjoying the show heartily.

THANK YOU! That is what I was telling myself. It was just getting kind of weak.

Exactly WHAT have I done to deserve being categorized with Mark as arrogant?

Short answer: Nothing.

Longer answer: Nothing. He's just projecting as a way of attempting to cover up his own attitude problem.

I see through it. You've answered him well. I know very well that if he dropped the attitude problem and continued in the respectful vein that he seemed to adopt initially, he'd be met with largely the same consideration here. But since he's chosen to be a condescending asshat, I'd say the gloves are off.

I guess that means rough-handling is okay.

Keep up the good work.

Okay. We'll see how or if he responds to my challenge to accept us complete with our beliefs. It's kind of fun to imagine all the conversations he is having with his fundy friends, having atheists for breakfast, lunch, and supper. Some of these posts might even provide fodder for sermons--dire warnings of what the world is coming to. Of course, no glance at his back to note that the fundy White House folks are contributing to major mayhem.

Okay, I just had to vent a bit. Thanks for bearing with me.

You know. I've been thinking. I promised him that I would respond with my beliefs. Then I changed my mind. Because I believe in being very honest, esp. with promises, I felt obligated to let him know. I titled that message "changed my mind." I think now that he figured I'd changed my mind about the conditions I'd laid down, or maybe even about the faith. Whatever he thought, he opened that message immediately and responded with knee-jerk promptness.

November 4, 2006

No response from Mark since yesterday. So I am presenting a challenge to see if he will talk.

To Mark:

Well Mark, I see you have not yet figured out how to practice egalitarianism. You must really believe your beliefs are superior to our beliefs. That seems rather unChristlike.

As for how I could ever not be my parents' child. Have you ever heard of people disowning their children? Or treating their children so badly that they want nothing to do with them? Or simply living so far away from them that relationships cannot be maintained?

In all those cases it is possible to no longer be the child of one's parents for all intents and purposes. The only link is biological. I live in a home with a young woman who has no idea who her biological parents are/were. She was adopted as an infant, loved, raised, and supported by another family. In reality, who are this young woman's parents?

Remember the story Jesus told about the good Samaritan. Jesus asked his audience: Who really was his neighbour?

The answer: The Samaritan who took care of him.

This tells me that there are bonds that are far stronger than biological bonds. You may also remember that Jesus said that his family was those who did the will of his father. Thus, we have Jesus renouncing family ties. I guess if that can happen with biological ties by the greatest and most famous hero of history, with people we can see, hear, touch, then it can also happen with a Person we never saw, never heard, never touched.

I don't know if God exists. It's not an either/or thing for me. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't. The way to figure out is to THINK about the evidence we have. Not what the Bible says but what other evidence exists. That is NOT a bet. It is thinking things through VERY carefully.

Maybe you have never heard it, but if you bet that God exists it seems you are going by Pascal's Wager:

If I were God, I would not appreciate anyone who loves me just because I happen to have a good house. Pascal's wager looks awfully much like blasphemy to exChristians. You might want to rethink your relationship with God, is it based on love or on selfish desires to have a good time after death?

How can I quote Scripture and not believe in Jesus? Pretty much in the same way as I can talk about the boy who cried wolf. Or about Goldilocks. Or some other story-book character. These stories are based on real life situations and human emotions. The morals that worked for Jesus also somtimes work for me.

In order to accept Jesus as my saviour I would have to confess that I am a sinner. I am not a sinner so I won't say I am. So I don't accept Jesus as my Saviour. Simple.

Now I explained how I can become an ex-child of my parents and how I can become an exChristian. I also explained how I can quote scripture without believing in Jesus as my lord and saviour.

I think that answers all your questions. Now will you talk? The choice is yours but you need to understand that the way you talk/write and act toward us exChristians confirms that we made the right decision when we left Christianity.

We do NOT want to be the kind of person you are. You deny our right to believe what we think best, you deny our right to call ourselves what we are. You disbelieve our testimonies. You claim to know our very thoughts i.e. that we are still Christians. Who among us has told you that there is no such thing as a Christians? Who among us denied that your child was deathly ill so that it appeared he was dead, but he revived? None of us did any of these serious offenses to you that you delivered against us with free reign. Yet you consider your beliefs superior to ours. How lamentable and pathetic! You have no values. You leave the impression that without a God and hell to keep you in line you would be an uncontrollable criminal.

From your email to Dave:

We have. I waited forty years. Even the Israelites did not have to wait longer in the wilderness. God has not yet spoken to me. When I stopped waiting on God and just did what had to be done, my life became worth living. I did experience some miracles early on when I made my decision. I was in two life-threatening traffic situations and escaped with minor injuries at most. I don't know if I ever told you, but I lived most of my life in a horse and buggy Mennonite community. One night after class I forgot to connect the horse's bit to the reigns. I set off for home. But I had no control over the horse. It took off in its own way. It raced down the street, made two left turns, one of these at a red traffic light; motor vehicles were at the intersection. Finally the horse slowed to a walk so I could get off and attach the bit. Not a scratch. Another time my horse spooked from a snow plow. I lost control and ended up lying on my back on the street in front of a moving car. The car never hit me. I got off with a broken rib or two and a concusion. These things happened AFTER I turned my back on God.

That is only half the story. My horse kept racing down the street, took a left at one of the busiest intersections in the province at rush hour, the busiest day of the week. It must have passed many dozens of cars. Not a scratch to horse, buggy, harness, or any motor vehicle. Someone in all those vehicles at the intersection knew how to manage horses and guided the horse and buggy into the closest farm and tied it up. Somehow, word got around so my sister found the horse and met me in the hospital. We're talking about perhaps a hundred strangers who had never met before. I came to enough to provide crucial info re my identity and who to contact. Others took care of the horse and other communications. So Mark, you see, miracles happen outside Christianity. You can take or leave it but you cannot change history.

Ruby

November 4, 2006

Mark,

HOW DARE YOU!

You filthy bag of shit,,, to deny me the fact of me having been a slave of your cult,, and the fact of my own escape from said cult,

I am an EX-CHRISTIAN, I EXIST, THEREFORE EX-CHRISTIANS DO EXIST.

Do not deny me my own existanc again.

Do not deny me the experience of 12 years of my life , wasted on my knees to your imaginary dead god.

Do not deny to me the degradation I experienced, or the constant terror and self loathing.

Do not deny to me the pain and suffering I felt as a christian.

Do not deny me the years I spent begging your jesus to save me from the peadophiles who controled my life through most of my childhood.

Do not deny me the shame of being told that it was MY fault for being a seductive little boy, and a "sinner from a sinfull race", (those exact words used by my pastor).

Do not deny me my own life.

November 4, 2006

Do not deny me the shame of being told that it was MY fault for being a seductive little boy, and a "sinner from a sinfull race", (those exact words used by my pastor).

Do not deny me my own life.

D. Laurier, I would feel inclined to very closely examine the life of that pastor who said those horrible things to you. An adult who cannot/will not control his own body has no right to condemn a child for being what he was trained to be.

DL, I keep wanting to tell you that the name you use is the name of my school: Laurier. I am curious if there is any connection? I'm not prying for personal info; just noting a fact.

Anyway, thanks so much for your support. There has not been a single indication that this man exists. I would guess that in the midst of all his betting he forgot to bet that an exChristian might be so vocal and to have thought things through so deeply and thoroughly.

I think we can expect him to twist things so thoroughly as to entertain his friends for many a Sunday afternoon with the absolutely irreligious and depraved behaviour we/I showed toward him. I think we can expect him to make it look like we feel totally tormented for our sins, not only in the next life but already in this life. After all, what other reason exists in heaven or on earth for anyone to be so dedicated to refuting his irreproachable witness?

This feels like losing a game. Is that because we have certain values we will not overstep??? Oh I know! as exCs we are not supposed to have any values. But who says we have to obey any stereotypes? I simply don't. Period. But if you squeeze your eyes just right, you can make it appear as though.....whatever you want to believe.

You know--isn't is funny that we had only one Christian looking in here? Well, there might be dozens reading but only one spoke up. Is that because we so thoroughly refuted all xtians defenses? That thought makes me smile. Oops! I better hold my horses. Some christian or other is sure to see this and put me in my place. Oh well...no matter.....we know what's in our heart of hearts.

November 4, 2006

You know--isn't is funny that we had only one Christian looking in here? Well, there might be dozens reading but only one spoke up. Is that because we so thoroughly refuted all xtians defenses?

Hello Ruby ~ Couldn't resist, I'm afraid. I've been kind of following along here, and I can see that you're angry, and I'm sorry about that.

To be honest, I'm not sure who this 'Mark' is that you're talking to. Does he post here, or do you send him these posts as emails?

You've had a bad time with fundamentalists. I can see that. I'm not one, and I hope you won't dismiss me because I'm a Christian ...?

Peace

R

November 5, 2006

Hello Ruby. I too would like to thank you for continuing on with this person even though I can imagine your frustration with his antics and passive aggressive behavior... I personally could not do it, but I think it's wonderful and enlightening to share your transactions with an individual such as him who is so predictable, arrogant, and rabid in his fundamentalist beliefs.

Now to the one who has the name he thought no one could guess...

"You've had a bad time with fundamentalists. I can see that."

That's a very insulting thing to say. Have you not read anything in this interchange? You come from the same plane as Mark... and you're using the same tactics. Passive aggressive... ("I've been kind of following along here, and I can see that you're angry, and I'm sorry about that") which colors and clouds the issue at hand, and ignorant... "To be honest, I'm not sure who this 'Mark' is that you're talking to. Does he post here, or do you send him these posts as emails?"

Did you not read the first page of posts in this thread that links to the blog entry that started this all?

November 5, 2006

You know--isn't is funny that we had only one Christian looking in here? Well, there might be dozens reading but only one spoke up. Is that because we so thoroughly refuted all xtians defenses?

Hello Ruby ~ Couldn't resist, I'm afraid. I've been kind of following along here, and I can see that you're angry, and I'm sorry about that.

To be honest, I'm not sure who this 'Mark' is that you're talking to. Does he post here, or do you send him these posts as emails?

You've had a bad time with fundamentalists. I can see that. I'm not one, and I hope you won't dismiss me because I'm a Christian ...?

Peace

R

And what, exactly, is your evidence that ruby is angry? You chose the word 'angry' for a very specific reason. Angry is not frustrated, angry is not tired, angry is not wary, angry is . . . angry. It implies a specific feeling, and saying that someone is angry implies that they are angry at something, in the case of Christians, Christians usually imply that one is angry with God when they use the word angry.

So why angry?

November 5, 2006

I said that I could see that Ruby was angry. Perhaps I should have said that I 'think' (after reading her posts) that she is angry. That is my impression. Yours is different. People are different.

I don't for one minute think that she's angry at God.

R

November 6, 2006

I see there was some conversation here since I last visited. I'll look at that later. I just got a batch of emails from Mark. Might not all go on one post.

From Mark #1:

I did not save the email however, as I recall you made a statement outlining what I need to do to "earn your respect" and then maybe you will allow me to participate in valid debate with you. Is it really true that you would give someone your respect just because of what they write in an email? I would hope not. And exactly how did you achieve this lofty status that I should have to jump through hoops to gain your respect and hopefully have the opportunity to be granted an audience with you. Yes, welcome to the height of arrogance. I respect no man. I respect God. If you are a child of God then I respect who you are in Christ which is what I expect from others. Not who I am or what I've done but who I am in Christ and what I've done to be His servant.

Ok, that's enough mud don't you think? What have we to gain by taking pot shots at one another? Obviously you have had a scriptural up-bringing and still know the scriptures quite well. And by your own admission, a Christian, a follower of Christ, a beliver, accepting of His death for your sins.

Only now you say you are no longer a Christian. And I say once saved always saved. You're still a Christian just a different kind of Christian. So then shouldn't we just agree to disagree? Neither of us will change the other, at least I have no interst in telling you what to think or how to interpret scripture or how you should live your life and I'm comfortable with my position in Christ so I'm not interested in other people telling me how to live my life. God is doing a very good job of telling me what to do and if I deviate from His plan for me then He brings me right back, yes, sometimes through chastisement but always with love and He forgives me and we move on. So I believe God will continuely work to bring you back into His plan for your life which means you don't need me telling you anything about what to think or how to act. At most perhaps the Lord will tell me to pray for you which of course we don't need emails and debates for that, right? Grace and peace to you, Mark

To Mark,

I read this email. I don't understand what it is you want. It seems you don't want to talk with me and that you don't like anything that I am saying. I will respond to a few of your questions.

Respect

Here is a good article on respect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect.

Respect is not worship. It is just treating people decently, as though they are worthy of decent treatment. Keeping the Golden Rule.

Christian

You can call me a Christian if you like. I just think it's misleading because I am not a Christian anymore. I was raised as a Christian, to believe the Bible and go to church and do the things Christians do. I lived most of my life in a horse and buggy Mennonite community. I drove my own horse and buggy until just a few years ago when I moved to town.

I would still be a Christian except Christianity has never made sense to me. I stuck to it so long because I felt I had to be really sure before I left. I am working on a degree in theology mainly to better understand why people believe what they do. So yes, I know the Bible very well, though I can't quote chapter and verse off by heart.

>Obviously you have had a scriptural up-bringing and still know the scriptures quite well. And by your own admission, a Christian, a follower of Christ, a beliver, accepting of His death for your sins.

I went along with it because I really had no other viable choice in life. Christ's death for our sins has never made sense to me. That is why I no longer am a Christian. I don't know if I ever was a real Christian. I used to trust that eventually I would understand but I still don't. It's time to move on in life. I did not tell you or anyone else that I accepted Christ's death for my sins because it never made sense to me, like I am saying here. I think I did tell you that I am not a sinner. I don't believe in the concept of sin, so nobody is a sinner.

>And I say once saved always saved.

You can say that if you like. I was taught that is a false doctrine. The Bible is clear that we can backslide. Also, there is the danger that if we believe once saved always saved we will get sloppy and live however we like because we're saved so what is there to lose. If you think I deserve the name of Christian--that is just fine with me.

>So I believe God will continuely work to bring you back into His plan for your life which means you don't need me telling you anything about what to think or how to act.

That's absolutely right. I don't need you telling me anything. You probably won't believe this but I feel convinced that I am exactly in the middle of God's plan for my life right this minute. I just don't understand how I can be, given the steps I have taken to remove myself from God and religion. I am happy with things the way they are so I don't care if it makes sense to say I am in God's will or not. But one thing I know--if you start evangelizing me I'll block your email. God and I are on really good terms and God will tell me directly if there is anything I should know.

>So then shouldn't we just agree to disagree?

I have no contract with you of any sort, no obligations whatsoever. There is nothing to agree or disagree about. If I get tired of your letters I'll just stop responding. Maybe block your email if you keep writing and it bothers me too much.

Betting

From Answers.com:

The adjective betting has one meaning:

Meaning #1: preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure and especially games of chance

The definitions of "bet" are too long but you can look it up yourself.

Maybe you are betting about what happens when you die. I am not. This is too serious to bet. I felt a need to think things through very carefully over several decades. And even then I am keenly aware that it is a major risk believing God does not exist. All the same, I can no longer lie. To say "I believe" means it makes sense in my mind. It doesn't make sense, so I will no longer say it. It takes far more faith for me to take this position than it ever did to believe in God and the Bible. The people I know at exC have all taken deconversion very, very seriously. Christians don't believe this but that does not change the truth.

>>>you are in the game of life. It started and birth and ends at death. Then a new game begins called the after-life. Yes, I agree, life a short and serious game. Which is why I have chosen to follow God's game plan for my life. It ensures that at the end of the game everyone who has received His gift of salvation will win.

You can use the idea of game and winning. I feel that is too light-hearted considering how serious a matter we are dealing with. Games are for fun, life is too serious for that. The other exCs seem to feel the same way. Somehow, it seems like something is not quite right if we have to tell a Christian this. We simply cannot give in to such light-hearted approaches to life. It violates our beliefs about right and wrong.

Mark, I am looking at your other email. There is no point in talking any more. You point blank refuse to believe anything I say that you don't like to hear.

Good-bye.

Ruby

From Mark #2

For this one he just inserted his replies like this:

my comments >>>

Mark,

I am sure you are a good and lovable person with those who agree with your

religion. But you are very arrogant and self-righteous (holier than thou)

with people you think are on the way to hell. I realize you don't understand

how we make out these offenses. I will try to explain:

1. You told Dave to stop gambling. Gambling is a bad thing. Thus, in effect

you were telling Dave that he is doing something bad. Apparently you believe

you are above doing this bad thing. That is self-righteousness. >>> I did not tell anyone to stop gambling and I never wrote it was bad. I said since you are betting on eternity why not pick the best outcome of the bet. I bet that at death we will get either heaven or hell. I pick heaven.

2. You judged that Dave was gambling based on YOUR understanding of reality.

That is intolerably arrogant; it totally disregards his understanding of

reality. >>> Gambling with life is a fact. Either God is real and therefore heaven and hell are real or God is not real and what we do with our life doesn't matter. I'm betting the first part is real and the ex-C website members are betting the later. Still a bet.

3. You do not accept that any other reality could exist apart from your own

world view. That is arrogant and unacceptable.

>>> I don't accept any other reality for ME. What you accept is up to you. I have told no one that they should think as I think or act as I act. I only said the risk is completely mitigated if you accepted God for who He says He is instead of saying He doesn't exist and hoping (betting there is no hell). 4. You have no evidence for your belief in God, yet you presume to condemn,

mock, cajole people who do not believe in God. I don't know what that is but

it is not good and right. >>> Were you reading my emails? I have done none of those things. I am no mans judge and have said so many times. It is truly none of my business what God would have others do. (surely you remember John 21:21-22)

You addressed a number of issues in this email.

1. How I can use scripture and not accept Jesus as my Saviour.

2. What topics we should discuss

3. Definitions

Regarding #1. I can answer that question quite easily and adequately.

However, you have proven that you will not accept my testimony and

experiences as valid or legitimate. Jesus said not to throw pearls to the

pigs or treasures to the dogs. Because of the disrespect you so blatantly

demonstrate of me and my friends, I will not answer your question in any

more depth at this point. >>> I think you are calling me a pig. Not kind.

Regarding #2. It is disrespectful of you, and comes across as controlling

behaviour, to discount the many topics of discussion I have presented in my

emails to you. I will not accept your offers of discussion until you have

adequately (in my mind) responded to the questions I presented. As a human

being, I deserve that much respect. I will send a separate email with the

list of those questions, since you seem to have lost them. >>> thanks.

Regarding #3. You reject definitions I, and other ex-Christians, use to

define our experiences. It is totally presumptuous, disrespectful, and

insulting of the deepest kind that you disregard our self-definition, which

is based on our experiences. Thus, you disregard not only our

self-definition but also our very life experiences. >>> you can put a boot in the oven but that doesn't make it a biscuit. If you have a special non-biblical definition of a Christian then the website seems a bit bogus.

Mark, I will engage you in discussion only if and when you demonstrate

respect for me as a person worthy of respect on a level equal to yourself.

This includes the acknowledgement that my beliefs are just as legitimate and

valid as your own. You have yet to demonstrate such respect.

Ruby

From Mark #3

my comments >>>

Here are the questions I put to you for discussion. You have not responded

to a single one of them.

Oct. 30, 2006:

Mark: 4. You believe you are no longer in the game. (which again is

impossible because you are a living human being and thus you are in the

game)

Sarah: I am a living human being alright. But obviously I am not in the

Christian game anymore. Nor am I playing any other game. Life is too short

and serious for games. What game do you think I am in?

>>>you are in the game of life. It started and birth and ends at death. Then a new game begins called the after-life. Yes, I agree, life a short and serious game. Which is why I have chosen to follow God's game plan for my life. It ensures that at the end of the game everyone who has received His gift of salvation will win. By receiving Christ's gift of salvation you started on God's game plan for your life but now perhaps you have deviated from that plan. You know He's working to bring you back. He said He would.

Oct. 31, 2006

So you are of the "once saved always saved" persuasion? That makes your

argument re gambling with eternity null and void. If God has not given up on

us he will not send us to hell because that would obviously be giving up. A

more logical conclusion, as seen from a Christian perspective, would be that

God sends the dead unbeliever to purgatory where more learning is possible

so that in the end all will be with God. Thus, there can be no gambling. >>> Correct once saved, always saved, therefore because you became a Christian you will not be going to hell but will participate in the next game (i.e. after-life which is also the 1,000 year reign of Christ.) Of course after that game the final game will be called eternity.

Oct. 31, 2006

Mark: <I'm betting there is.>

Sarah: That's right. You're the one who is doing the betting in this

situation. The rest of us have more important things to think about. Life

and death are such serious business that we cannot afford to waste our

precious time on this planet betting. >>> What can I say. you have to chose. you have to bet. you have to take a position in Christ. To not accept Him is to reject Him.

Mark: <You are betting there is not.>

Sarah: Mark, would you please stop lying about other people? Ex-Christians

consider lying to be a major offense. Even your supposedly real God says

through (supposedly) Moses, and it is repeated by (supposedly) Jesus, not to

bear false witness. Thus, I know it is part of your christian teachings.

>>> I am not lying. God and the scriptures will bear this true. Re-read Revelation.

You are bearing false witness, Mark. Jesus said that failing in but one tiny

part of the law makes a person guilty of violating the whole. You have

committed an offense before your Almighty God by bearing false witness

against people who have forsaken all--in many cases family rejected us--for

the sake of truth. How do you expect to escape judgment?

>>> I am not bearing false witness. I witness that there is only one true God and Jesus Christ is the son of God and only His blood can provide the gift of salvation, only His blood is acceptable before God the Father as payment for sins and that we must be born of the Holy Spirit of God and receive His blood as the atonment for our sins.

Mark: <(2.) To those who have called out to God and received nothing then I

guess I have to stand corrected. You proved me wrong.>

Sarah: We are legion. The rest of your email proves that you do not accept

our testimonies. Why do you disbelieve the testimonies of so many people?

>>>What? Your testimonies of what? I read how everyone has had bad experiences in life so they say God is not real. So I said don't use other people and what they have done to you to prove or disprove God. The scripture are full of promises. He has never failed one His promises.

Sarah: When the topic gets a bit difficult or complicated, as in my last

email to you, you change topic and tactic. You are very evasive. Normally,

only people who have something to hide act like this. What do you have to

hide? >>> I guess that makes me not normal since I have nothing to hide.

When and if you acknowledge that my beliefs are just as valid and legitimate

as your own, I will engage you in discussion of these issues. You do not

have to accept my beliefs as your own, but you must acknowledge that my

beliefs are just as good as your own--they are just different. You can do

this and remain a Christian. >>> There is only one belief that is valid and legitimate and that's belief in the one true God. Everything else is false. So if you believe in the one true God, the creator of heaven and earth and every living thing, the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob, then yes I acknowledge that to be true. I can acknowledge a false god or a belief in a false god. You know yourself that God is a jealous God and will not share His glory with another.

To be clear about my beliefs, I will send a separate email with my responses

to your challenges in your last email.

Ruby

From Mark #4

Well Mark, I see you have not yet figured out how to practice

egalitarianism. You must really believe your beliefs are superior to our

beliefs. That seems rather unChristlike. >>> actually I do practice egalitarianism. I am no respector of persons and accept everyone as creation of God and if God was will to sacrifice His son to save each person then they are important to Him and if they're important to God they're important to me.

As for how I could ever not be my parents' child. Have you ever heard of

people disowning their children? Or treating their children so badly that

they want nothing to do with them? Or simply living so far away from them

that relationships cannot be maintained? >>>OK, so you are still your parents child. You can disown them, reject them, even kill them but they are still your parents.

In all those cases it is possible to no longer be the child of one's parents

for all intents and purposes. The only link is biological. I live in a home

with a young woman who has no idea who her biological parents are/were. She

was adopted as an infant, loved, raised, and supported by another family. In

reality, who are this young woman's parents? >>> We aren't talking intents and purposes. We are talkiing fact and reality. The fact is once you were born you became your parents daughter. Same for your friend. She has one set of biological parents and she is their daughter. Period. That can not change. They didn't raise her but she is still their daughter. In experience she is the child of the parents who raised her. The reality is she is the daughter of the parents who conceived her. Those are the facts.

Remember the story Jesus told about the good Samaritan. Jesus asked his

audience: Who really was his neighbour?

The answer: The Samaritan who took care of him.

This tells me that there are bonds that are far stronger than biological

bonds. You may also remember that Jesus said that his family was those who

did the will of his father. Thus, we have Jesus renouncing family ties. I

guess if that can happen with biological ties by the greatest and most

famous hero of history, with people we can see, hear, touch, then it can

also happen with a Person we never saw, never heard, never touched.

>>> Yes, we agree there are bonds that are far greater than biological bonds. The greatest of which is the bond between man/woman and his/her creator the one between us and God the one that results from being spritually born or born again by the Holy Spirit of God.

I don't know if God exists. It's not an either/or thing for me. Maybe he

does and maybe he doesn't. The way to figure out is to THINK about the

evidence we have. Not what the Bible says but what other evidence exists.

That is NOT a bet. It is thinking things through VERY carefully. >>>Then think about the prophecy's that God gave you in His scriptures. God predicted hundreds of events and everything that was supposed to take place by now has so right now God is 100% accurate. I have thought this through. God has given us plenty of evidence. Do the research, do the math. The evidence is overwhelming in His favor.

Maybe you have never heard it, but if you bet that God exists it seems you

are going by Pascal's Wager:

<If I don't believe in God I will go to hell. So, just to be safe, I will

believe in God.>

If I were God, I would not appreciate anyone who loves me just because I

happen to have a good house. Pascal's wager looks awfully much like

blasphemy to exChristians. You might want to rethink your relationship with

God, is it based on love or on selfish desires to have a good time after

death?

>>> Actually I had not heard of Pascal's wager until I read the ex-C responses. So I don't know the specifics of it but my plea was to open the door of your heart to God. He said "behold I stand at the door and knock and if any man hear my voice and open the door I will come in..." Remember Revelation 3:20? My plea was for people to hear His voice and open the door to their heart. This has nothing to do with God's house or having a good time after death, although if you go to hell then you defintiely will not have a good time. This is about salvation. About avoiding hell.

How can I quote Scripture and not believe in Jesus? Pretty much in the same

way as I can talk about the boy who cried wolf. Or about Goldilocks. Or some

other story-book character. These stories are based on real life situations

and human emotions. The morals that worked for Jesus also somtimes work for

me.

In order to accept Jesus as my saviour I would have to confess that I am a

sinner. I am not a sinner so I won't say I am. So I don't accept Jesus as my

Saviour. Simple. >>> OK, you never really became a Christian, you never became Christ like, you never at any time confessed Christ as your saviour and accepted His blood as the gift of salvation. Isn't it rather hypocritical to call your self an ex-Christian if you were never a Christian to start with?

Now I explained how I can become an ex-child of my parents and how I can

become an exChristian. I also explained how I can quote scripture without

believing in Jesus as my lord and saviour.

I think that answers all your questions. Now will you talk? The choice is

yours but you need to understand that the way you talk/write and act toward

us exChristians confirms that we made the right decision when we left

Christianity. >>> by your own statements you were never a Christian so how can you leave Christianity?

We do NOT want to be the kind of person you are. You deny our right to

believe what we think best, you deny our right to call ourselves what we

are. You disbelieve our testimonies. You claim to know our very thoughts

i.e. that we are still Christians. Who among us has told you that there is

no such thing as a Christians? Who among us denied that your child was

deathly ill so that it appeared he was dead, but he revived? None of us did

any of these serious offenses to you that you delivered against us with free

reign. Yet you consider your beliefs superior to ours. How lamentable and

pathetic! You have no values. You leave the impression that without a God

and hell to keep you in line you would be an uncontrollable criminal.

>>> What? Without God paying the price for my sin then I would go to hell. It's pretty simple. I don't want you to be the kind of person I am except for the part where I accepted Christ into my heart and confessed my sins and received His blood as the forgiveness of my sins. Yes, I want that for you and everyone else but beyond that don't look to me for answers. God will provide answers.

From your email to Dave:

We have. I waited forty years. Even the Israelites did not have to wait

longer in the wilderness. God has not yet spoken to me. >>> Because you may have not heard Him does not mean He did not speak. You know the scriptures. There was a time when He spoke and some people heard it thought it thundered and others thought it was an angel. When I stopped waiting on God and just did what had to be done, my life became worth

living. I did experience some miracles early on when I made my decision. I

was in two life-threatening traffic situations and escaped with minor

injuries at most. I don't know if I ever told you, but I lived most of my

life in a horse and buggy Mennonite community. One night after class I

forgot to connect the horse's bit to the reigns. I set off for home. But I

had no control over the horse. It took off in its own way. It raced down the

street, made two left turns, one of these at a red traffic light; motor

vehicles were at the intersection. Finally the horse slowed to a walk so I

could get off and attach the bit. Not a scratch. >>> And you don't think God was involved here? It wasn't God that forgot to connect the bit and yet you didn't even get a scratch. When you meet God you will know the truth of how His hand was involved. Another time my horse spooked from a snow plow. I lost control and ended up lying on my back on

the street in front of a moving car. The car never hit me. I got off with a

broken rib or two and a concusion. These things happened AFTER I turned my

back on God. >>> See, even after you turned your back on Him, He looked after you.

That is only half the story. My horse kept racing down the street, took a

left at one of the busiest intersections in the province at rush hour, the

busiest day of the week. It must have passed many dozens of cars. Not a

scratch to horse, buggy, harness, or any motor vehicle. Someone in all those

vehicles at the intersection knew how to manage horses and guided the horse

and buggy into the closest farm and tied it up. Somehow, word got around so

my sister found the horse and met me in the hospital. We're talking about

perhaps a hundred strangers who had never met before. I came to enough to

provide crucial info re my identity and who to contact. Others took care of

the horse and other communications. So Mark, you see, miracles happen

outside Christianity. You can take or leave it but you cannot change

history. >>> Then perhaps we are debating semantics of Christianity so let's toss that aside. The fact is you escaped, literally escaped a situation that could have easily torn your life apart. I'll bet your mom was praying for you. Somebody was. Maybe a grandmother. Somebody. You experienced the hand of God protecting you and delivering you. You admitted that your safety was not a result of some heroics on your part or from someone else so you know as well as I do that was God. It was.

Ruby

November 6, 2006

I said that I could see that Ruby was angry. Perhaps I should have said that I 'think' (after reading her posts) that she is angry. That is my impression. Yours is different. People are different.

I don't for one minute think that she's angry at God.

R

"Think" would have been a better word. Since you did use the word "see" I have to observe that you don't see very well. I have no reason to be angry or even frustrated with the guy. Now if I had to deal with him on my very own, that might be different. But being I can post everything here and get so much support, it's kinda fun. All the same, I might decide one of these days that I have better things to do. I didn't even read all the stuff he sent tonight because it's so boring. Besides, he just picks and chooses what he wants to believe of what I say. It's getting to the point where I'm asking if it's worth my time. But it was fun. He's probably dead serious about converting me. You can read the letters for yourself and decide what he's up to. Don't think I could have done it were it not for the support of folks here, so here's a big THANK YOU! We're in this together. We're all fighting the same foe. Except for little R.

November 6, 2006

Oh, I'm not that little, rubysera. *smiles*

What 'foe' is it that you'e 'all' fighting, btw?

You never know, I might be on the same 'side'

R

When I Stopped Gambling With Eternity...open Email To Mark

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