A few questions from a Christian (Not offensive)

[Guest MalaInSe]

Then I guess I won't answer your question.  I post a question.  You wanted to change the subject to something else.  That's valid.  But not in this message as it is only off topic and you only want to discount my beliefs.  That's fine if you want to do that.  But I would like to say on subject here.  Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OK, then what is your point?

 

The question I posted is directly on point and on topic, as was explained by TexasFreethinker. You asked a question, and I responded with a question that was designed to help you see why atheism is not a leap of faith. You refuse to answer it. Evidently, you're not really interested in talking about whether or not atheism is a leap of faith or whether my lack of faith is based on objective evidence. You're just here to bitch about some perceived disrespect.

 

I did not "change the subject to something else." I am trying to have a discussion about the topic YOU presented, as has been explained to you now several times.

 

The fact that you refuse to answer the question and instead deflect it with meritless claims that it is off topic is telling.

[Ro-bear]

I like your poem, HanSolo.

[Guest college_kid215]

Thanks, for the nice response. I understand some of the response since most of you probably thought I was a Christian troll or whatever. Well, you know what, most of those "christians' who hurt you and all of that, don't even follow what they believe. AGain, I apologize.

 

 

 

What's truely amazing about my answer is I managed to stop myself from typing great quantities of curse words in response to seeing that same damn argument yet again.

 

I'll credit some of my restraint to the fact you were just asking about the argument, rather than trying to use it on us...

Meanwhile, because you are taking in what we have to say rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and singing loudly, (we get an awful lot of that ) you have already earned more personal respect than most Christians we get here. (that is basically all of them, with the exceptions of Big Toe, SOIL, and TAP )

:edit: speaking of which... Hi TAP

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[Ouroboros]

Okay, a simple test.  Could you type 'Jesus Christ' for me.  And answer my question about Calvin peeing on the fish? 

 

Look, I hate getting into this.  It's not going to go anywhere unless its an honest discussion of ideas.  Can we please keep it that way.

 

Now, as to the pink unicorns.  I don't think it appropriate to change the topic here.  I would love to debate this in a different manner.  If you email me at bmw890@yahoo.com I would be more than happy to engage in that sort of debate.

 

Ok, no problem:

 

Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus .

 

Calvin Peing on the Fish ... I don't find it offending, but I don't find it funny either...

 

But on the other hand, it bothers me, that it bothers you...

 

Censoring symbols and written text Is Against the Constitution ... at least it used to be. I think they used to called it Free Speech, but heck if I'd know...

[Guest college_kid215]

I thought TexasFreethinker's post referred to that there are many flavors of atheism. I thought you wanted to make fun of my religion. WHich you are free to do, but I really didn't want to get into it.

 

okay, i'll answer. Yes, I have not seen any pink unicorns, but I suppose they could exist somewhere or at sometime in the universe.

 

OK, then what is your point?

 

The question I posted is directly on point and on topic, as was explained by TexasFreethinker.    You asked a question, and I responded with a question that was designed to help you see why atheism is not a leap of faith.  You refuse to answer it.  Evidently, you're not really interested in talking about whether or not atheism is a leap of faith or whether my lack of faith is based on objective evidence.  You're just here to bitch about some perceived disrespect.

 

I did not "change the subject to something else."  I am trying to have a discussion about the topic YOU presented, as has been explained to you now several times.

 

The fact that you refuse to answer the question and instead deflect it with meritless claims that it is off topic is telling.

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[Ro-bear]

I think CK defines atheism, as many theists do, as "one who states unequivocally 'There is no god.'" Of course, most around here would go with "one who does not believe in a god or gods." One makes a claim,the other does not. Many theists prefer the first position because it gives them a point of attack. Many use it because so many dictinaries define it that way, reflecting a bias on the part of lexicographers. Popular usage is not always reflected in the dictionaries. Stubborn lot, those lexicographers.

[Ouroboros]

I like your poem, HanSolo.

 

Thanks, very kind of you.

 

It's really strange ... I have more "inspiración del spiritos santo" nowdays than ever ...

 

And he's not even there ... huh...

[Guest college_kid215]

I have no problem with you using symbols that are disrespectful. And I don't want you or anyone to get rid of them. I thought that the same people who enjoy the calvin thing would use the 'xian' term cause they wanted to disrespect it. I now know, some use it as an abbreviation, some as term to distinquish between fundamentals and mainline christians, and some as a form of dis-respect.

 

Ok, no problem:

 

Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus Jesus Christus .

 

Calvin Peing on the Fish ... I don't find it offending, but I don't find it funny either...

 

But on the other hand, it bothers me, that it bothers you...

 

Censoring symbols and written text Is Against the Constitution ... at least it used to be. I think they used to called it Free Speech, but heck if I'd know...

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[been borg again]

CK,

is the reason why you are an ex-nonchristian,

because you were hurt by some nonchristian in the past?

 

It seems to be the reason why most christians are even christian to begin with , because they were hurt in the past by some nonchristians.

[Ouroboros]

I have no problem with you using symbols that are disrespectful.  And I don't want you or anyone to get rid of them.  I thought that the same people who enjoy the calvin thing would use the 'xian' term cause they wanted to disrespect it.  I now know, some use it as an abbreviation, some as term to distinquish between fundamentals and mainline christians, and some as a form of dis-respect.

 

Splendid!

 

You have earned 1000 "Open-Mind" Points. Pling Pling...

 

People that can honestly ask questions and change their opinion based on new facts, are open minded; the kind of people I like.

 

You've earned my respect, college_kid, so welcome to our midst!

 

I respect any person with any belief, as long as they have respect for mine.

[MrSpooky]

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but if you want to talk philosophy with me on the issue, PM me, CK. I'm kinda sorta one of the board specialists on the matter of rational belief and the issue of God.

 

Heck, I'm teaching a course on the Philosophy of Atheism next semester. One more student online wouldn't hurt.

[Guest college_kid215]

I disagree with your premise. I was never hurt by an ex-nonchristian or a nonchristian either. The reason I am a Christian is simple. I was never hurt by anyone. First I have to decide if there is an ultimate being in the universe or not. I cannot conclude that everything is random. My belief is much more involved, but I won't get preachy.

 

Then, since I am a theist, I have to decide what religion seems most plausible. To me Christianity does. Again, I really don't want to get preachy. I can elaborate if you so desire, but i doubt it's what you are looking for.

 

I have to go now though, so I won't be able to respond anymore tonight. But I will be here again tomorrow. Leave me some messages and I'll respond, or email me if you so desire.

 

Thanks and goodnight

 

CK,

is the reason why you are an ex-nonchristian,

because you were hurt by some nonchristian in the past?

 

It seems to be the reason why most christians are even  christian to begin with , because they were hurt in the past by some nonchristians.

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[Kryten]

CK, I mostly use "Xian" as an abbreviation, but it does have the "EX" ring to it-- which I am.

 

Many of us were True Believers for decades and have studied enough to realize there is insufficient basis for a belief. Here are some of the issues...

> The bible cannot be from God because God would never do the stupid and evil things that Yahweh supposedly did in the OT. I would hope for a better, smarter god!

> The contradictions are overwhelming.

> There are numerous absurdities.

> There are no OT prophecies regarding the coming NT messiah.

> Every historical, archeological, and scientific discovery goes against what the "good book" tells us.

> Everything that happens can be explained without magical intervention, and there is no way that God will answer a prayer-- unless it's something that could happen at random anyway. (try it and you'll be forced to admit God won't respond to a test)

> There is no credible evidence Jesus Christ ever existed.

> The very BASIC claim that the gospels were written by "eyewitnesses" is flawed. Was Luke or Matthew there at the conception or birth? If not, they weren't eyewitnesses. (Reference: "eye" + "witness" means the witness saw the event with his actual "eyes"!)

I'd be happy to defend any of the statements I just made...

 

So that leaves me to think I have the stronger position now than I did when I was a Xian. I didn't get hurt by anyone, and am not mad. Just free. (Also a lot happier.)

[been borg again]

I disagree with your premise.  I was never hurt by an ex-nonchristian or a nonchristian either. The reason I am a Christian is simple.  I was never hurt by anyone.  First I have to decide if there is an ultimate being in the universe or not.  I cannot conclude that everything is random. My belief is much more  involved, but I won't get preachy.

 

Then, since I am a theist, I have to decide what religion seems most plausible.  To me Christianity does.  Again, I really don't want to get preachy.  I can elaborate if you so desire, but i doubt it's what you are looking for.

 

I have to go now though, so I won't be able to respond anymore tonight.  But I will be here again tomorrow.  Leave me some messages and I'll respond, or email me if you so desire.

 

Thanks and goodnight

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you %100,

this is why it is slighly offensive for christians to ASSUME that we are exchristian because we were hurt by other christians... our lack of belief is much more involved

[white_raven23]

In regards to Calvin peeing on stuff.....

 

Frankly I've never found that funny. I think it's a disrespect of.....Calvin.

 

It's a total misrepresentation of his character. Look at that leering expression on his face while he's pissing on various logos and symbols.

 

The only time Calvin EVER had an evil look on his face like that was when he was THINKING of some prank to pull. Not when he was actually commiting the indiscretion.

 

To glare like that while in the act of doing something bad gives off a deeply negative intent to me.

 

Whenever Calvin was DOING anything, he was wide-eyed...maaaybe with one eye squinted up. He was mischevious. He was never evil.

 

On that note, I'm also offended by the Calvin praying decals. Again...it's a misrepresentation of his character. Calvin was never humbly reverant when he prayed....it was more of a talking to the sky communication. Often with his eyes wide open, and just as often yelling (at god, or the world at large).

 

 

In short I'd be happier if they'd just stop screwing with Calvin.

 

FYI- Leatherbound set of Calvin&Hobbes due October 5th!!!!

[NimbusBirdMgp]

... Cults (I know...), do want respect in that which they like their faith in, cause it has appealed to the heart of such people.

 

... In turn what I have been wanting in life has been nothing as dis-respectful for putting faith in the deception of Jesus Christ in the Religion.

 

... It's the personal temperatments and lifestyles we all have that clash. Somehow we just can't find cooperation for what makes life in harmony.

 

... I like the passions of our senses and aesthetics this Natural World at least has a part of us to respect Nature in its harmony. Why isn't the Christian Religion doing more respect with Nature's Aesthetics and it's need for Harmony?

 

... I'm upset that it deprives me what I find worthy of my appreciation for fullfillment. Always something is inimical following peer pressured cultural things or with this Nature away from it.

[Ouroboros]

I disagree with your premise.  I was never hurt by an ex-nonchristian or a nonchristian either. The reason I am a Christian is simple.  I was never hurt by anyone.  First I have to decide if there is an ultimate being in the universe or not.  I cannot conclude that everything is random. My belief is much more  involved, but I won't get preachy.

 

You actually describe a multitude of ex-Christians in this site. Many were never hurt by Christians. I was somewhat hurt, from some Christians, but that wasn’t the reason. My reason is far more complex than that to explain it here. It’s not easy to loose faith from being Christian for 30 years, and the whole family is Christian. It takes a lot more than some grudge.

 

 

Then, since I am a theist, I have to decide what religion seems most plausible.  To me Christianity does.  Again, I really don't want to get preachy.  I can elaborate if you so desire, but i doubt it's what you are looking for.

 

I have to go now though, so I won't be able to respond anymore tonight.  But I will be here again tomorrow.  Leave me some messages and I'll respond, or email me if you so desire.

 

Thanks and goodnight

 

You have all the right to have your faith, and most of the decision you have made comes from an emotional argument. You feel there is a God, so then you believe there is a God. And that’s ok, I respect that.

[Ouroboros]

In regards to Calvin peeing on stuff.....

 

Frankly I've never found that funny. I think it's a disrespect of.....Calvin.

 

It's a total misrepresentation of his character. Look at that leering expression on his face while he's pissing on various logos and symbols.

 

The only time Calvin EVER had an evil look on his face like that was when he was THINKING of some prank to pull. Not when he was actually commiting the indiscretion.

 

To glare like that while in the act of doing something bad gives off a deeply negative intent to me.

 

Whenever Calvin was DOING anything, he was wide-eyed...maaaybe with one eye squinted up. He was mischevious. He was never evil.

 

On that note, I'm also offended by the Calvin praying decals. Again...it's a misrepresentation of his character. Calvin was never humbly reverant when he prayed....it was more of a talking to the sky communication. Often with his eyes wide open, and just as often yelling (at god, or the world at large).

In short I'd be happier if they'd just stop screwing with Calvin.

 

FYI- Leatherbound set of Calvin&Hobbes due October 5th!!!! 

 

Yeah, what about the Calvin bending knees to the cross symbol???

 

That one offends me Plenty!

[dogmatically_challenged]

Let me just say also, that I tend to be more rational than other Christians.  (I know you probably think that is a silly statement) 

If we are merely talking about your belief in bible god then yes. But otherwise we don't know you. You seem open minded and intelligent so far even though you got a few misconceptions about atheism.

 

But I don't rely on feelings or subjectivity to prove my faith.

Yes you do. Otherwise you would not be a Christian. But that doesn't necessarily mean your stupid either, even though you are in error for believing in bible god.

 

Now, all theists have to eventually make a leap of faith. But I would also say that all atheists have to make this leap as well.  A total committment to the belief or affirmation that there is absolutely no god is a jump too.  I think the most honest people are most likely agnostics.

Well it takes blind faith to be a Christian where as atheists rely on evidence, and coherence of story before deciding to place confidence in a story. If the story of a god is incoherent, contradicts what we know of history and of nature, well...It is more reasonable to not believe in the story.

 

Christians just believe blindly or let thier biases get in the way because they do not want to honestly test what is so dear to them. But hey at least you are open minded it seems.

 

I am an agnostic atheist, but I am definately a strong atheist when it comes to stories of god(s) given me by religion. Without religion I have no description of god. If there is a godthingy the planet sure can't get it's stories straight. What is a god again? The less you say about god the less contradictory you religionists get. If you want to be thoroughly rational you will say nothing of god. If you Christians stop talking about god then we will to, then we can just wait and see if a godthingy shows up.

 

I realize that God may or may not exist.  If he does exist, no amount of science can disprove him to not exist.  Conversly, if he does not exist, no amount of faith can make him exist either.

Your god refuses to be tested. So.. keep it simple then, and say nothing of god until he becomes testable. Read your bible as a book and not as a holy book. Enjoy; but don't worhip the story.

 

I have noticed a harsh hostility towards Christianity from some atheists.

You don't say.... Well thats because Christianity is made up of fallable humans who believe in a fallable book and is exploited by people who lust after power.

 

It is a minority of Christians that are the instigators today and the majority of Christians either have thier head in the ground or actually support the fundies without realizing what the consequinces are. Keep religion out of politics if you want your religion and your government to stay the way YOU like it. If things get to were laws are used to enforce biblical laws, things could get out of hand and you won't like it very much I promise you. We are reacting to what the fundies and politicians are doing, and we are aware of Christianities bloody history.

 

I won't make any apologies for certain heathens. Ever heard of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrom? Many atheists are ExChristians.

 

Is there a hositilty toward a single religion or religion in general?  I realize this is a leading question in that I am assuming there is hostility toward religion.  But I do notice it.  For example, having the cartoon character Calvin peeing on a Jesus fish, and other disrespectful jabs directed mainly at Christianity.

This generation is just a drop in the bucket. Christianity desrves no respect. You as a person can deserve respect, but your religion definately does not.

 

I guess that's enough for now.  If anyone wants to write me for a discussion of ideas, I'm at BMW890@yahoo.com.  Thanks

You might as well stick around and choose the opinions that are the most difficilt for your beliefs.

 

Take care Nick.

[chefranden]

Hi there kid,

 

Welcome to the board. If you are in college you are not a "kid", even if you happen to be one of those 16 year old wiz kids.

 

Hello,

 

Let me just say also, that I tend to be more rational than other Christians.  (I know you probably think that is a silly statement)  But I don't rely on feelings or subjectivity to prove my faith.  Now, all theists have to eventually make a leap of faith.  But I would also say that all atheists have to make this leap as well.  A total committment to the belief or affirmation that there is absolutely no god is a jump too.  I think the most honest people are most likely agnostics.

 

I understand the "leap of faith" as that is the reason I became a Christian the second time. However, it does not apply to atheism no matter what the apologists have told you. Atheism is the state of not having any evidence of a diety to have faith in it. Atheism is the default position. You are an atheist in requards to most deities. Do you need faith to be a a-brahminist?

 

<snip>

 

I have noticed a harsh hostility towards Christianity from some atheists.  Hear me out before you critize.  I realize that Christianity is responsible for MANY deaths, atrocities, and crimes have been in the name of Christianity, and there is no excuse for that.  But let's not forget that crimes have occured under atheism as well, as in Stalin's Russia.  I realize that religion has hurt some of you, and for that I apologize.  Now with all that being said, I hope that will provide accurate background for my questions.

 

You have a valid point. Any ideology can be taken to the extreme. Stalin's ideology was Marxism, not atheism. Atheism was a doctrine of the ideology, not the ideology itself.

 

Why do many of you write Xians?  How can it be difficult to write a simple name.  Especially since many of you believe he did not exist or was not who he said he was?  (I don't think it is out of respect either, as I have heard some explanations say.)  I can write Zeus, Mars, etc. without a problem.

X is an abreviation for Christ (Χριστός) in Greek. Early Christian writers used it frequently. However, I think many users of Xian do not know that and use it as a put down. So you have a point. I do not use it any more for that reason.

 

The reverse is often the case as we are called plenty of names by Christians as well. I'd worry about the log thing if I was you.

 

Is there a hositilty toward a single religion or religion in general?  I realize this is a leading question in that I am assuming there is hostility toward religion.  But I do notice it.  For example, having the cartoon character Calvin peeing on a Jesus fish, and other disrespectful jabs directed mainly at Christianity.

As this is an Ex-Christian site Chistianity is what the community has had problems with. If this was an Ex-Muslim site, I'm sure you would not find much complaining about Christianity.

[chefranden]

I don't owe you respect on the basis of your being alive. And I've not met many christians that I do respect (fundies or no). Christianity has fucked a lot of people up, so pissing on it sounds like a damn good idea.

Yes you do!

[Asimov]

A total committment to the belief or affirmation that there is absolutely no god is a jump too.  I think the most honest people are most likely agnostics.

 

Let's see...you ask for an honest intellecutal debate, and yet you make the biggest mistake of misrepresenting a group??

 

Jesus man...I don't know ANY atheist that makes an absolute statement in regards to God's existence, maybe you should ask before you rip that one out.

 

I have noticed a harsh hostility towards Christianity from some atheists.  Hear me out before you critize.  I realize that Christianity is responsible for MANY deaths, atrocities, and crimes have been in the name of Christianity, and there is no excuse for that.  But let's not forget that crimes have occured under atheism as well, as in Stalin's Russia.  I realize that religion has hurt some of you, and for that I apologize.  Now with all that being said, I hope that will provide accurate background for my questions.

 

Uh...those were committed under Communism, not atheism. Atheism isn't a fucking religion, it's a lack of belief. You're grouping ALL atheistic beliefs into one box, then labeling em all Communists....

 

Why do many of you write Xians?  How can it be difficult to write a simple name.  Especially since many of you believe he did not exist or was not who he said he was?  (I don't think it is out of respect either, as I have heard some explanations say.)  I can write Zeus, Mars, etc. without a problem.

 

Who cares?

 

Is there a hositilty toward a single religion or religion in general?  I realize this is a leading question in that I am assuming there is hostility toward religion.  But I do notice it.  For example, having the cartoon character Calvin peeing on a Jesus fish, and other disrespectful jabs directed mainly at Christianity. 

 

It's hostility to those who try to impede in our daily lives and aggressively harrass.

[- AUB -]

Welcome, college kid, I like to see moderate xtians here, as it’s good to just talk.

 

You bring up some good points; I’ll address some. First, yes you shouldn’t hate xtianity because of what xtians do, we had a guy called “Goldie” here who really hated atheists because of a bad experience with one, he was just a bigot. However you can hate a religion for what it does to people, if it can be shown to be responsible for their problems or behaviour.

 

You said objective facts should serve as the basis for a worldview that also is correct. There is no part of my philosophy that is not objective, and it is the subjectivity of religion that I dislike. Emotionalism and psychology is all it boils down to once the pretence of rationalism, (Strobel style) logic (presups) science (creationism) History (revisionism and biblical “archaeology”) and ethics (please) has been steadily stripped away and shown to be a lie.

 

As to attitudes towards your faith, I’m not really an ex-xtian, I came to this site to explore why I never fell for it, even when I was fully a part of a church organisation, (and I have the medals to prove it). I’ve concluded that my Reason, an innate sceptical and rational view of the world rendered me incapable of taking any leaps of faith. Since then all my studies on the bible, logic and theology have supported this position. I mention this to stress that I have never had a bad experience with an xtian, EVER, I have been screwed by plenty of other groups but never that religion. The reason I hate xtianity (but not xtians, them I pity) and have dedicated my life to undermining it is due to objective facts. First it’s history, and the doctrines that are responsible for what it made humanity do. Secondly the moral side, mainly the fact that xtians can’t be moral. And thirdly the fact that it a lie, the defence of which means becoming a deceptive scumbag apologist, a breed of creature I despise on a very personal level, both as an intellectual and a lover of truth.

 

Also, just to save you effort, I might mention that every single argument for your religion that has ever been invented has been put forward here, they have all been thoroughly rejected as fallacial or just plain bunk. Though only the vets here will be aware of this, it is important to stress that we have very good reasons to doubt your religion, as there is no aspect of it that hasn’t been explored. You will see for yourself if you stay long enough, though most theists don’t last a week here. You may wish to remember that if you decide to defend your religion. (one tip, don't use TAG)

 

Chow

[Ouroboros]

Uh...those were committed under Communism, not atheism.  Atheism isn't a fucking religion, it's a lack of belief.  You're grouping ALL atheistic beliefs into one box, then labeling em all Communists....

 

Good point. There are several secular countries in the world, that are atheistic, and not oppressing the people. Sweden, Norway, Finland, France are just a few examples. They're atheistic but they treat people fairly good.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Good point. There are several secular countries in the world, that are atheistic, and not oppressing the people. Sweden, Norway, Finland, France are just a few examples. They're atheistic but they treat people fairly good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In that case when I get out of school I'll move to France. Imagine living in a place were most are atheist! Is this really true? I WILL tour Europe!