A few questions from a Christian (Not offensive)

[Ouroboros]

In that case when I get out of school I'll move to France. Imagine living in a place were most are atheist! Is this really true? I WILL tour Europe!

 

It's really interesting that a majority of the people in these countries have chosen agnostic/atheism worldview from the freedom of religion laws. They have not be forced to become atheists.

 

This is how they rank in percentage Atheist/Agnostic/Non-believer (by choice)

1. Sweden: 46-85%

2. Denmark: 43-80%

3. Norway: 32-72%

7. Finland: 28-60%

8. France: 43-54%

11. Germany: 41-49%

15. Britain: 31-44%

 

And where could US be? Well further down …

 

44. United State: 3-9%

 

And this is out of 50 countries in the study.

America is one of the top religious countries in the free world.

[dogmatically_challenged]

It's really interesting that a majority of the people in these countries have chosen agnostic/atheism worldview from the freedom of religion laws. They have not be forced to become atheists.

 

This is how they rank in percentage Atheist/Agnostic/Non-believer (by choice)

1. Sweden: 46-85%

2. Denmark: 43-80%

3. Norway: 32-72%

7. Finland: 28-60%

8. France: 43-54%

11. Germany: 41-49%

15. Britain: 31-44%

 

And where could US be? Well further down …

 

44. United State: 3-9%

 

And this is out of 50 countries in the study.

America is one of the top religious countries in the free world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When I get my degree I am going to Europe. I want to know what its like to talk to people and not hear crap. God this, God that, My aunt is psychic, These crystals work better....

[dogmatically_challenged]

Thanks Han! I hope I can see all of Europe.

[Ouroboros]

When I get my degree I am going to Europe. I want to know what its like to talk to people and not hear crap. God this, God that, My aunt is psychic, These crystals work better....

 

True, but like I said in another thread, not everything is perfect there either.

 

Socialism usually mean very high taxes, so be prepared for that.

 

And something that's most amazing is that the crime rate in US is four times higher than Sweden. If anyone would like to talk statistics! Could religion be related to crime rates? Maybe it's higher here just because of all the holiness? Statistics shure hints it.

[♦ nivek ♦]

CK...

 

"Just 'cause I can be.."

 

Won't spend a lot of time discussing brands of whateverism.

 

Will say I have made a choice not to be xtian_brand_religious.

 

Mind isn't geared to long debate, inate planning, and lengthy thoughts.

I just fix shit, move onto next project or idea.

 

"Pannism" is the simple art of taking the shit laid down at you and making it do something more than splatter the walls around you..

 

Religious folk are more than welcome to practice their arcane makjik and belief in the SkiE DaDDiE and derboyZ all they want. I don't care.. Until their belief and practice cross my path..

 

Freedom from Religion gives a Freeperson more time in Life, less stress and the ability to work out things in a pattern or method they choose..

 

n, Freeman

[Ouroboros]

(No offense Nivek, just kidding a bit)

 

Is the Pannda the national symbol for Pannism?

(Eat, shoots and leaves)

 

[dogmatically_challenged]

Is the Pannda the national symbol for Pannism?

(Eat, shoots and leaves)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The symbol can be anything or nothing. Maybe it is a souvineer from what ever pans out, like a lock of hair from a pretty woman, your first dollar earned, a scar from a stupid accident, a car that sits on your property because your girfriend never put oil in it....stuff.

[Ouroboros]

The symbol can be anything or nothing. Maybe it is a souvineer from what ever pans out, like a lock of hair from a pretty woman, your first dollar earned, a scar from a stupid accident, a car that sits on your property because your girfriend never put oil in it....stuff.

 

(no offense Nivek, just kiddin here)

 

Oh, so that's where the car came from... I've been wondering...

 

And yes, my accident was stupid. Who would think I could slip on a Pan-spray.

 

It actually could be a Pandemic religion, the Pannism.

 

Plus Pannism has been proven by the Pandemonium Principle:

Everyone shouts and screams it, and it becomes true.

 

[dogmatically_challenged]

...

[Vigile]

Hello,

 

But I would also say that all atheists have to make this leap as well. A total committment to the belief or affirmation that there is absolutely no god is a jump too. I think the most honest people are most likely agnostics.

 

Nick

 

 

I just started in on this thread, so if this is already hashed out, I apologize.

 

I have a hard time with this position. I heard it many times while I was a christian and even then it didn't make much sense. Why does an atheist require faith, or an evolutionist, etc? A christian must have faith that what a book says is true, moreover, must have faith that their interpretation of said book is the correct one. An atheist does no such thing. They take a look at the current body of PROVEN knowledge and make an assessment from there. I doubt you will find many atheists who would tell you that they will "never" believe in god. If the evidence for said god were to present itself and that evidence were profound enough to back up the profound hypothesis, most would accept the findings. To be an atheist just means that I don't expect to find the evidence just like I don't expect to find evidence of Santa or the Easter Bunny. Should I be agnostic about Thor or the other plethora of gods or should I just be agnostic about the christian god?

[Ouroboros]

...

[dogmatically_challenged]

....

[Lokmer]

It says you can't affirm something in the absolute.  For example, it's not possible for atheists to say there is no god or never was a god.  In order to prove that, a person would have to be everywhere (to make sure god wasn't anywhere) all at once (to make sure god never existed) If someone was everywhere throughout time, he would be god.

 

Bullshit. The word "God" means something specific. It is quite clear that such a being does not exist, if for naught other than the inconsistancies within the very definition. Christian theologians have been arguing for 2,000 years over what and who exactly God is. For a diety that supposedly reveals himself, he's done a damn poor job of it. The definition as posited by orthodox doctrine is utterly incoherent and nonsensical. A square circle does not exist. Neither does a being who is omnipotent and omnicient.

 

Now, if by "God" you mean "some big thing of some sort that made all of this" then you're on a little firmer ground. It is, as yet, impossible to be certain that there is no such being. But then it doesn't really matter, does it? If such a being exists, it doesn't matter unless it's also interested in humanity - and therefore the burden is back on you to prove that such an interest exists.

 

Your arguments are purile and anemic. Try again, or go read some good philosophy - both Christian AND secular. May I recomment Voltaire, Hobbes, Plantinga, Ellul, Kant, Barth, Neitzche, and Kierkegaard (4 atheists, 4 Christians)? Perhaps then you'll be in a better position to have this conversation.

 

The abbreviation is fine.  But given some of the other references to God/jesus/christianity on the site, I don't think its a form of abbreviation.  I think it's a form of disrespect.  WHICH IS OKAY considering this is an ex-christian site.  But don't be afraid to admit it.  I don't care either way.

 

Oh, get the hell off your hobby horse already, dude. You've demonstrated yourself to be **at least** incapable of nuanced discussion, clueless, and utterly uninterested in the answers to the questions you ask.

 

X is an abbreviation for Christ. MANY of us here were pastors, ministers, Christian teachers, theologians, and/or in the company of such people regularly while we were in the faith. A good number of us are also history students and speek/read Koine Greek. X is an abbreviation used by your own church fathers and leaders for the last thousand years.

 

How DARE you waltz in here with your under-studied scholastic arrogance and presume upon the motives of people you don't know to the point of making unilateral pronouncements on their grammatical nomenclature because it *happens* to strike you as disrespectful?!

 

You sir, are a class-A dip shit.

 

-Lokmer

[Vigile]

When I get my degree I am going to Europe. I want to know what its like to talk to people and not hear crap. God this, God that, My aunt is psychic, These crystals work better....

 

Dog,

 

May I urge you to consider looking into a university exchange or travel abroad program while you are still in school? I did it and it changed my life in ways that I could have never expected. I promise you that you will never regret the decision. Take the student loans if you have to. The experience will pay for itself over time.

 

One tip though, don't hang out with your American classmates when you are abroad. Make friends with the locals and avoid the expatriate bars. Your experience will be so much more rewarding and you won't just be another ugly American asshole in the process.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I never could understand that argument: "well, if you don't have proof, you can't make an assertion, so you have to be agnostic." So does that mean because you don't have proof that Santa Claus doesn't exist that you should still be putting out milk and cookies every December 24th until you're too old and feeble to move the walker to the fireplace? That's utter tripe. I have more than enough reason to doubt the existence of the Godchild and his questionable parentage. Mostly from the fact that if Zeus or Odin doesn't exist, then God doesn't either; which one is a fairy tale? All of them. Nature is the way it is.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Dog,

 

May I urge you to consider looking into a university exchange or travel abroad program while you are still in school?  I did it and it changed my life in ways that I could have never expected.  I promise you that you will never regret the decision.  Take the student loans if you have to.  The experience will pay for itself over time. 

 

One tip though, don't hang out with your American classmates when you are abroad.  Make friends with the locals and avoid the expatriate bars.  Your experience will be so much more rewarding and you won't just be another ugly American asshole in the process.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks Vigile! Will do! I don't drink so staying outa the bars will not hurt much. How do they feel about....not being able to speak thier language? Will I appear...stupid.. that is when making friends?

[Ouroboros]

I never could understand that argument: "well, if you don't have proof, you can't make an assertion, so you have to be agnostic."   So does that mean because you don't have proof that Santa Claus doesn't exist that you should still be putting out milk and cookies every December 24th until you're too old and feeble to move the walker to the fireplace?   That's utter tripe.   I have more than enough reason to doubt the existence of the Godchild and his questionable parentage.    Mostly from the fact that if Zeus or Odin doesn't exist, then God doesn't either; which one is a fairy tale?  All of them.   Nature is the way it is.

 

I'm not sure I understand you there?

 

Agnostic is a philosophical position that basically you know that you can't really know for sure.

 

While a dogmatic person would take a standpoint beyond the reasonable doubts there can be.

 

You can be a agnostic/deist or agnostic/atheist without a problem.

And naturalism (I think) falls under a form of Deism (correct me if I'm wrong)

[Vigile]

Thanks Vigile! Will do! I don't drink so staying outa the bars will not hurt much. How do they feel about....not being able to speak thier language? Will I appear...stupid.. that is when making friends?

 

Part of your program will most likely be language courses. You will find that most will speak some level of English as well. I lived with 4 Italians, all who spoke English - which was actually bad for me, since it allowed me to be lazy.

 

If you are genuine and want to learn about them, they will respect you and I would be willing to bet you will make some of the closest friendships of your life over there.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Part of your program will most likely be language courses.  You will find that most will speak some level of English as well.  I lived with 4 Italians, all who spoke English - which was actually bad for me, since it allowed me to be lazy. 

 

If you are genuine and want to learn about them, they will respect you and I would be willing to bet you will make some of the closest friendships of your life over there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks man. It would be cool learning another language. I wonder how many languages I am capable of learning. If I could I would learn them all. Heh.

[-Demona-]

>  Everything that happens can be explained without magical intervention, and there is no way that God will answer a prayer-- unless it's something that could happen at random anyway.  (try it and you'll be forced to admit God won't respond to a test)

 

Heh. I tried that. And of course, it didn't work.

[Fweethawt]

For those of you who are curious about the picture that

this xtian was talking about where Calvin is pissing upon

da lawd jebus, here it is...

 

 

It's on the main page of ExC.

 

[- AUB -]

Oh the obscenity!

[Mr. Neil]

But I would also say that all atheists have to make this leap as well.  A total committment to the belief or affirmation that there is absolutely no god is a jump too.  I think the most honest people are most likely agnostics.

Common misconception. The word "agnostic" is a useless term that I wish most people would just throw out, because it's really beating around the bush. Either your believe in God or you don't. There's no in-between. If you're not sure if there's a God, but as don't believe as a result, then you're still an atheist.

 

Essentially, agnosticism answers a completely different (and irrelevent) question. It's basically saying, "I don't know", when the question was "Do you believe?". Knowledge and belief are two different things. It's like saying that you don't believe that the car is in the garage, but you're not sure. Well, the fact that you don't know doesn't change the fact that you don't believe.

 

Truly honest people should tell you whether they believe or not. Saying, "I'm an agnostic" is useless. It's a red herring.

 

But there's another reason why this doesn't keep me up at night, and that is that the term "god" doesn't mean anything. God is supposedly a spirit, but no one can give a coherent definition of what a spirit is. It's always defined with nonsense terms, such as "supernatural" or with negatives, which are terms based on what it's not (i.e., non-material, non-corporeal, invisible, infinite, etc.). No one seems capable of saying what a spirit actually is.

 

In fact, some of those are self-refuting. The word "infinite", for example, means "not finite". Well if something is not finite, then it has no definition. See how that works? The words "infinite" and "definition" have the same root word. Amazing how many people don't realize this and go right ahead defining God with the word "infinite".

 

If you're saying that God is infinite, then you are saying that he is not finite. If he's not finite, then he lacks any definite properties. And if he lacks properties, then he can't possibly have any characteristics that make him a being. Therefore, no such being could possibly exist.

 

Saying that supernatural entities, such as gods, exist is like saying that zoozzleflumps exist. Neither word is coherently defined, so therefore any statement made on their behalf is utterly meaningless.

 

I can tell you with quite a level of confidence that there are no gods, because the word itself is nonsense. It's a series of letters organized that we decipher into a sound, which is emitted from our mouthes. And if that's all it is, then it can't point to anything in reality. And if it doesn't point to anything, then there can be no such being.

 

 

I realize that God may or may not exist.  If he does exist, no amount of science can disprove him to not exist.  Conversly, if he does not exist, no amount of faith can make him exist either.

The fact that science can't prove God is largely based on the fact that no one can coherently tell you what a "god" is. It's pretty hard to prove something that is undefined. I call that a fixed bet.

 

I do agree with the second sentence. A lof of Christians argue, quite literally, from a stance of wishful thinking. Many moral arguments are presented in this fasion, where the Christian says something like, "if God doesn't exist, then there can be no right from wrong." Well, that's a rather pessimistic point of view, but ultimately an argument such as this doesn't make God poof into existence.

 

If we never had God, then we've been self-sufficient all along. Not perfect, mind you, but no one said that the human race was perfect anyway.

 

 

I have noticed a harsh hostility towards Christianity from some atheists.  Hear me out before you critize.  I realize that Christianity is responsible for MANY deaths, atrocities, and crimes have been in the name of Christianity, and there is no excuse for that.  But let's not forget that crimes have occured under atheism as well, as in Stalin's Russia.  I realize that religion has hurt some of you, and for that I apologize.  Now with all that being said, I hope that will provide accurate background for my questions.

Sorry, but non-theism, which is what atheism is, is not a single group that you can pigeonhole together and make into a single ideology. There is no atheistic doctrine. The only thing all atheists have in common is that we don't believe in supernatural beings.

 

Saying that atheists killed a lot of people is like saying non-Nazis have killed a lot of people. And overwhelmingly, throughout history, you can easily prove that millions and millions of people have been killed by non-Nazis. Is it therefore right to be a Nazi? Of course not!

 

Even if it could be said that Stalin committed attrocities in the name of atheism, that doesn't make theism correct by default. Unfortunately, unlike atheism, most forms of theism do work from a doctrine, and these doctrines clearly outline patterns of violence and intolerance for its worshippers to carry out.

 

In Stalin's case, you simply had an evil person who had little regard for human life. Stalin had an idealistic dictatorship that happened to be unkind to religion, but that doesn't make atheism responsible for Stalin's actions. Stalin's decision were his own. But with a Christian, you can have even the kindest person convinced that something as mundane as homosexuality is wrong, not because it's actually harmful, but because the Bible tells them so. And to me, that is dispicable. As Steve Weinberg said once of religion, "with or without it, you would have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things, but for a good person to do evil things, that takes religion."

 

 

Is there a hositilty toward a single religion or religion in general?  I realize this is a leading question in that I am assuming there is hostility toward religion.  But I do notice it.  For example, having the cartoon character Calvin peeing on a Jesus fish, and other disrespectful jabs directed mainly at Christianity.

There are other religions that are despised just as much, if not more (Islam!), but for the most part, I don't have a problem with most religions. Even Judaism, which shares a lot of the same traditions as Christianity, doesn't bother me as much as Christianity. Jews seem content with leaving us alone, and they don't go out of their way to screw the science curriculum in the school system, so I generally leave them alone.

[Reach]

Common misconception.  The word "agnostic" is a useless term that I wish most people would just throw out, because it's really beating around the bush.  Either your believe in God or you don't.  There's no in-between.  If you're not sure if there's a God, but as don't believe as a result, then you're still an atheist.

 

Essentially, agnosticism answers a completely different (and irrelevent) question.  It's basically saying, "I don't know", when the question was "Do you believe?".  Knowledge and belief are two different things.  It's like saying that you don't believe that the car is in the garage, but you're not sure.  Well, the fact that you don't know doesn't change the fact that you don't believe.

 

Truly honest people should tell you whether they believe or not.  Saying, "I'm an agnostic" is useless.  It's a red herring.

I heartily agree with you, Neil. I think many people define themselves as agnostics out of fear (lest Christianity be true) and as a stepping stone of comfort between belief in God and disbelief in gods. They just are not able to make the entire positional shift from one point to the other, believer to atheist. I think we see the same thing in people who define themselves as liberal Christians. They just have not made the complete exit from Christianity yet. Liberal Christianity is simply a temporary stepping stone out and away from the faith.

 

When I deconverted, I knew that I had to be 100% honest with myself, regardless of how many people I could conceivably lie to, and being 100% honest with myself, I chose to define myself as an atheist.

 

I don't know much but I know I am disabled from believing.

 

-Reach

 

P.S. Great post, Neil, all the way through!

[Mythra]

CK - with regards to part of your initial question- regarding the use of Xian

 

If I may offer a slightly dissenting opinion -

 

Although I don't use "Xian" here myself,

 

Sometimes derogatory terms ARE used here to refer to God or Jesus Christ.

(See, I can write Jesus Christ without falling the ground and flopping around or foaming at the mouth) And my head didn't do a 360, either. Not even a case of sudden diarrhea. Nothing.

 

I use derogatory terms here myself, such as Ya,Ya, Yaway or Sonny J

 

I'm sure I would have taken great offense to this when I was a thumper.

(oh no, another derogatory term)

 

However, I don't use them now to offend Christians. I use them as a means of tearing down idols, of saying that this religion no longer intimidates, threatens or controls me. I no longer am influenced by an imaginary despot.

 

It means no more to me than saying "Allah Sucks", or, I just went to the bathroom and took a big Brahma.

 

I didn't leave Christianity because I was disillusioned with other Christians. There were lots of reasons. If you read some of the posts here, you'll start to find out why a lot of us left.

 

But be careful, little Christian (not meant derogatorily)

 

When building a house of cards, one doesn't want to open too many windows to the outside world. Beware of breezes.....