for TAP totallyatpeace

[Vigile]

Cerise~

 

How does that make me feel? Bad enough that I've almost walked away from it. And then I remember.........................he made you the same offer he made me

 

Hi TAP,

 

I think we all like you on this board so no personal offense intended, just a challenge to the statement above.

 

How did he make the same offer to you and I and them?

 

Perhaps you, like I, were raised in a warm, loving christian home where the gospel was presented in its fairest light. Then again, perhaps someone else reading this grew up in an abusive home where religion was nothing more than a sick joke. Or, perhaps there are many who are not reading this, and in fact, have not even heard the name Jesus spoken. Of course you see there are as many experiences in life as there are individuals. How then did he make an equal offer to all?

 

Do we really all know the truth in our heart and are we really all faced with an either/or decision? Is there an IQ test god performs on judgment day where god absolves all those below a certain level due to their lack of ability to reason? And if so, is it fair that I am going to hell because I can reason and through this reason have reasoned the gospel unreasonable?

 

Would you not agree that there are those who perceive their "need" for salvation at a higher degree than others? For example, assume a scenario where there are two diabetics. Both are in separate rooms cut off from outside communication and both rooms have an insulin supply along with necessary paraphernalia. One of them is aware of his condition and uses the insulin to relieve his symptoms while the other, completely unaware of his condition ultimately dies in his ignorance. Were both diabetics actually provided with an equal offer of salvation from their symptoms?

 

Do you see why your statement is very problematic for me?

 

It's even more problematic because I in fact think that you make the statement in ignorance. That is, you say god has offered you and I something equally, but do you really know what he has offered me?

 

Let me try and explain. As I said, I was raised in a christian home, had great examples of faith surrounding me, had a good experience with church (for the most part), and I was in fact a committed, god-seeking christian for many years. I was not willing to take salvation for granted, I wanted to become closer to god, I wanted truth, and I wanted to worship him. In other words, I was not your average luke warm Sunday only christian and I mention this incase I am accused of never having been saved.

 

I am no longer a christian because I examined the evidence and I CAN NO LONGER believe. I don't have a choice to just believe or not, I can't. Your statement on the other hand infers that I WILL NOT.

 

So how has god provided me with an equal offer?

 

These are all thoughts to ponder. As I said, you are a nice person and your faith is not hurting anyone, including yourself I think. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I will challenge you when you tell me that the christian god has provided a fair and equal offer to all mankind, because that is just not true.

[Reach]

I am no longer a christian because I examined the evidence and I CAN NO LONGER believe.  I don't have a choice to just believe or not, I can't.  Your statement on the other hand infers that I WILL NOT.

Exactly the same here.

 

Where faith once enabled me, erudition has disabled me.

 

It's cannot believe, not will not believe.

[thomas]

If you really believed we were heading for hell, wouldn't your posting habits be different on this board?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly, our true beliefs and goals are shown in our behavior.

 

When I was a Christian, there was a lady in our church, that really believed in eternal punishment. She just had to go evangelizing all the time. One year she joined an evangelizing team in our church, but in order to prepare the team were sent to a summer bible school for at couple of weeks. But she could not concentrate on being there. After a couple of days she began talking all the people going to hell, while being in a bible course.

 

Sad store, she is a very frustrated woman.

[Vixentrox]

Exactly the same here.

 

Where faith once enabled me, erudition has disabled me.

 

It's cannot believe, not will not believe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good point. I can no longer believe in Santa coming down my chimney any more. It's not that I won't believe, logic dictates that I CAN'T believe it.

[Totallyatpeace]

This post is mainly directed at Reach~

 

So I was wanting to ask you directly what your opinions and thoughts are

on Hell and how you

reconcile God/ Jesuses Love with the doctrine of hell?

 

I ask this because I am convinced the doctrine of Hell is the crux of christianity.

That is without hell, christianity crumbles away.

 

So I wanted to ask your opinions on hell, freewill,

if you think people choose hell ( or choose hell out of ignorance?)

if you beleive hell is eternal?

 

Most people understood a long time ago why I was here because I have stated it over and over. I came here to understand the perspective of the Ex-Christian. If you think spending time with you meant that I needed to hang out in the debate forum and have one continuous battle after another-- and that it's my way of understanding you, you are mistaken.

 

Call it games, if you must...but participating in the Word Association game had a lot more to do with understanding people and also, just plain winding down at the end of a day, than anything else. Does it mean my intention for being here was not a serious one?

 

Although I rarely participate in the debate forum, I read along every single day. I had many of my own questions, and asked them quite regularly in PM's. Reach, I am not a debater. I hate conflict with people and will most often run the other way to avoid it. However, I am not so weak that when somebody asks me a direct question, I won't answer.

 

The original poster asked me specific questions that quite frankly, I would like to have ignored. I sat here last night and knew that I had two choices. Stand up for what I believe and speak out, or ignore the post and try to hang on to relationships. One way would mean being true to myself and the other way would be a lie. (or a game, in your terms, Reach)

 

I've picked up many good things here from people at this Web Site. One, is being true to myself while respecting the beliefs of others.

 

Now having said that.....I will try and find time to respond to the other posts this evening. I work a full time job that right now is very busy and requires my attention during the day.

 

 

Tap

[Vigile]

Sorry if I'm picking on you here, I don't mean to. I was just thinking on what I wrote and had a bit more to add.

 

I think it's a fallacy to present belief as a choice in the first place. At least in the way you presented it. (to summarize, you said that we are both presented with the same choice).

 

Surely Mr. Spooky can shed some light here and perhaps say this more eloquently than I, but I will try.

 

Faith in god is not a choice in the same manner as "what to wear today," or "do I want vanilla or chocolate." We believe in something because we have been exposed to truth or fallacy or something in between that convinced us. I believe in gravity because it has been demonstrated to me. I could at this point never stop believing in gravity unless someone demonstrated why my original belief in it is in error. I cannot choose not to believe in gravity. Even asking me to would be a nonsensical request. It is equally nonsensical to say that I was provided a choice of accepting god's offer or rejecting it because I don't believe that offer really exists nor is it possible for me to believe this. Therefore, no choice as you stated.

[Reach]

I hate conflict with people and will most often run the other way to avoid it. However, I am not so weak that when somebody asks me a direct question, I won't answer.

TAP, on some levels I can understand all of what you said and why you are here, what you do and how you use the WAG to unwind.

 

What I don't understand and I'm not sure you see is that the hell doctrine (or the doctrine of eternal punishment and rewards) is the greatest conflict that ever exists. I hate conflict and the discomfort of confrontation just as much as you do. However, God is the one who has iniated this confrontation and he has said, according to Christianity, "Either you play it my way or you can burn in hell for all eternity and by the way, I love you."

 

Forget conflict and confrontation. According to Christianity, we are at war with God. Now, I didn't start this conflict but I seem to be stuck playing God's wargames.

 

That does not sit right with me. Does that sit right with you?

 

Reach

[Totallyatpeace]

However, God is the one who has iniated this confrontation and he has said, according to Christianity, "Either you play it my way or you can burn in hell for all eternity and by the way, I love you."

 

Forget conflict and confrontation. According to Christianity, we are at war with God. Now, I didn't start this conflict but I seem to be stuck playing God's wargames.

 

That does not sit right with me. Does that sit right with you?

 

Reach

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Here's my honest reply.

 

I hate the doctrine of hell with a passion, Reach. I don't fully understand it nor will I ever fully understand it. But, I trust. I trust Him enough because I can't see the whole picture and He can. I know that won't sit well with anyone here, but it's my honest reply.

[Reach]

Here's my honest reply.

 

I hate the doctrine of hell with a passion, Reach. I don't fully understand it nor will I ever fully understand it. But, I trust. I trust Him enough because I can't see the whole picture and He can. I know that won't sit well with anyone here, but it's my honest reply.

I appreciate your honesty, TAP.

 

When I came here as a fully committed (but studying) Christian, I had to answer these questions the first month I was here. Somehow, you ended up with a nine-month break.

 

-Reach

[Vigile]

This post is mainly directed at Reach~

Most people understood a long time ago why I was here because I have stated it over and over. I came here to understand the perspective of the Ex-Christian. If you think spending time with you meant that I needed to hang out in the debate forum and have one continuous battle after another-- and that it's my way of understanding you, you are mistaken.

 

Tap

 

 

Tap,

 

I think this topic of hell derailed somewhere. I think what Reach originally meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Reach) was that though you say you believe in hell, you could not possibly unless either A, you are callous and cold, or B, you were spending every waking hour trying to rescue as many from this horrible place as you could. The fact that you don't appear to be callous and cold and the fact that you are not spending every waking hour in a rescue attempt (thank god!) then you probably don't really believe in the reality of a place called hell where unbelievers will rot and burn for eternity upon eternity.

 

She was not judging you for your behavior, just making an observation about what you say you believe based on your actions. This same observation could be applied to all Christians, with the exception of a few like the poor little old lady that another poster just mentioned.

 

And, I'm sure you know that we here are all sensitive about this topic of hell since it was, and for some still is, one of the biggest issues we have faced in our lives. I realize you did not bring it up, it was brought to you and you just stated what you thought. That's fine.

 

BTW, if that is your real picture, you are very cute.

[Vigile]

Hell teaching creates a kind of Stockholm Syndrome in it's members.  In order to escape wrath, pain, bodily harm..etc, she has chosen to identify with and even support her captor.  A mental Stockholm Syndrome.

 

I've never heard it stated better. That's exactly what it was for me. I used to lay awake in bed at night frightened that I would screw up and end up there or with tears in my eyes for my friends who I could not convince to escape the fire. And through this I still found love for the one who set it all up. It was very twisted and something that caused a lot of psychological trauma for me that I in some ways still deal with.

[Vigile]

Vigile,

 

I wrote about Stockholm Syndrome and Christianity once, the comparison between the two.  If you want it, I can post it for you.  It's not too long.

 

Please do.

[Reach]

I think what Reach originally meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Reach) was that though you say you believe in hell, you could not possibly unless either A, you are callous and cold, or B, you were spending every waking hour trying to rescue as many from this horrible place as you could.  The fact that you don't appear to be callous and cold and the fact that you are not spending every waking hour in a rescue attempt (thank god!) then you probably don't really believe in the reality of a place called hell where unbelievers will rot and burn for eternity upon eternity. 

 

She was not judging you for your behavior, just making an observation about what you say you believe based on your actions.

You are correct, Vdf. Exactly.

 

I'm not making a judgement at all about TAP's behavior. For the record, we have a good relationship and I don't seek to mar that in any way. I am making a determination about what I sincerely think she believes, whether she is able to realize that or not, based on her record here. It's an observation of observable data, factual information (as measurements or statistics) used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or calculation.

 

I don't think she is yet able to see this. My purpose is to help her see what her actions indicate and that is that she really doesn't believe in hell at all.

 

-Reach

[Reach]

I've never heard it stated better.  That's exactly what it was for me.  I used to lay awake in bed at night frightened that I would screw up and end up there or with tears in my eyes for my friends who I could not convince to escape the fire.  And through this I still found love for the one who set it all up.  It was very twisted and something that caused a lot of psychological trauma for me that I in some ways still deal with.

Patty Hearst comes to mind, an abducted publishing heiress who came to identify with her captors and joined them in their crime spree.

 

A brief summary of the events surrounding the abduction, and the outcome

 

Thanks, Madame M!

[Totallyatpeace]

FYI~ My quote button doesn't work on my work PC. Neither does the edit button. (That's scary)

 

"I think what Reach originally meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Reach) was that though you say you believe in hell, you could not possibly unless either A, you are callous and cold, or B, you were spending every waking hour trying to rescue as many from this horrible place as you could."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A.) I am not callous and cold. I will walk away from a situation before I allow myself to become that way.

 

B.) I would be less than truthful to say that I spend every waking hour trying to rescue people from hell-----at least with words. I have tried to live my life the way Christ did as much as possible. If asked directly about Christ, I will answer. I have shared Christ with many people and often have it rejected. However, it is not a Believer's job to continue pounding somebody with the message, though many Christians who have visited these debate forums would disagree with me. The Bible also says people will know we are Christians by our love........something that is seriously lacking in the faith today.

 

The main reason I don't preach here is because first, it wasn't my purpose in being here, secondly, you all know the Gospel and third, Bruce and Dave have a thread here that instructs me not to. I have done my best to honor that.

 

 

Tap

 

 

Edited, per request. Quote fixed, too. -Reach

[Totallyatpeace]

See what I mean?

 

That smiley face is suppose to be the number two. lol....

 

Reach, can you fix that please?

[Reach]

See what I mean?

 

That smiley face is suppose to be the number two. lol....

 

Reach, can you fix that please?

Done.

 

B.) works but B or b with a ) will give you that smiley.

[Totallyatpeace]

Of all the emoticons that could have popped up.............Thank God it was that one!

[Reach]

Of all the emoticons that could have popped up.............Thank God it was that one! 

Clearly, Tap, there are some smileys which you would consider disastrous for you to use.

[Vigile]

Of all the emoticons that could have popped up.............Thank God it was that one! 

 

 

Nah, I wouldn't have taken offense to any. You've already proved your intentions on this board to be wholesome.

 

 

Ooops, I mean

[Alice]

Tap,

 

I think this topic of hell derailed somewhere.  I think what Reach originally meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Reach) was that though you say you believe in hell, you could not possibly unless either A, you are callous and cold, or B, you were spending every waking hour trying to rescue as many from this horrible place as you could.  The fact that you don't appear to be callous and cold and the fact that you are not spending every waking hour in a rescue attempt (thank god!) then you probably don't really believe in the reality of a place called hell where unbelievers will rot and burn for eternity upon eternity. 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is that entirely true? There are lots of paths people I care about sometimes choose to take - that I believe will create mini hells for them in this life (disastrous relationship choices/substance misuse to name a couple) I passionately and completely believe they are making mistakes - but after mentioning it a couple of times when they ask - I stop trying to rescue them and spend my time with them enjoying their company. Just because their mistakes are time limited and not for an eternity does that let me off the callous tag?

[Reach]

Is that entirely true? There are lots of paths people I care about sometimes choose to take - that I believe will create mini hells for them in this life (disastrous relationship choices/substance misuse to name a couple) I passionately and completely believe they are making mistakes - but after mentioning it a couple of times when they ask - I stop trying to rescue them and spend my time with them enjoying their company. Just because their mistakes are time limited and not for an eternity does that let me off the callous tag?

Yes, Hesitent.

 

Also, they are not being kept alive and tortured in flames, without water and no hope for escape from the physical misery, etc...

 

And when it comes down to it, what they are going through based on their choices - It may all feel like hell but this isn't eternity. That's the difference.

[Celsus]

TAP,

 

I think you ignore the issue that the doctrine of Hell would make absolutely no sense within a Judaic worldview. Hell is never mentioned in the Tanakh and is not a part of Judaism. Liekwise, the concept of fallen angels is also not supported by the Tanakh, up to and including Satan/Lucifer. All of these concepts are distinctly pagan in origin. As such, if Yeshua was a real teacher in Israel, then there are only two possible explanations on why these concepts exist in Christianity. One is the Yeshua was a teacher (Rabbi) and these concepts were later added by theologians who came from a paganistic culture. The second possibility is that Yeshua actually taught these concepts and according to the guidelines of the Tanakh was teaching things that were in direct contradiction to the Tanakh, which is why he would have been executed as a false prophet. This brings us back to the core issue of Christianity that has plagued it since the beginning. Christianity wants to use the Tanakh and Judaism to support its claims, but Christianity is completely at odds with the worldview of Judaism and the Tanakh. Thus when Christians edited the Tanakh into the Old testament, they used a Latin formal name (Lucifer), correlated it to HaSatan and took a scriptural passage about the King of Babylon and said it was about fallen angels.

 

While you cling to faith in opposition to all of the evidence that Christianity is a synthetic belief system and incoherent, I could not do so. I am a Deist, of which I have never dissimulated about. I belive, based upon my personal, subjective interpretation of reality, that a higher power probably exists. But based upon formal and informal studies, I an confident revealed religions are not true. While all religions and philosophies contain truths and insights, they also contain things which are nonsensical, were incorporated for socio-political motives and/or were incorporated for superstitious reasons. If Christianity gives you guidance to live a peaceful and fulfilled life, then bravo for you. But in the final analysis, I think you simply gloss over the inherent problems with Christian doctrine to maintain your belief.

 

I will close with this thought. My mother is a Christian and is upset about my apostasy. She believes that she will spend enternity in Heaven with Jesus and that I, her oldest child, will be in Hell, where God will torture me, Ghandi, Einstein, Satan and most other intelligent beings forever and ever. I asked her this question. "What kind of God would torture a woman's child for eternity and expect this woman to not greive for this same eternity"? If your doctrine is correct, then you serve a psychopathic deity and we are all merely ants for him to play with, like a child with a magnifying glass.

 

Bruce

[Alice]

Yes, Hesitent.

 

Also, they are not being kept alive and tortured in flames, without water and no hope for escape from the physical misery, etc...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess I worded that in a way that defeated my own question!

 

Its just I don't follow that because TAP isn't preaching hellfire and brimstone all the time this means she is either callous or doesn't believe in hell. Couldn't it mean she doesn't think preaching hellfire or making round teh clock attempts attempts to rescue everyone she knows (when they don't want to be rescued) would be a self defeating exercise?

[Reach]

Its just I don't follow that because TAP isn't preaching hellfire and brimstone all the time this means she is either callous or doesn't believe in hell. Couldn't it mean she doesn't think preaching hellfire or making round teh clock attempts attempts to rescue everyone she knows (when they don't want to be rescued) would be a self defeating exercise?

I never suggested what TAP should be doing with her time. I mentioned what the records show TAP has done with 73% of her posts on this site. That behavior indicates to me a disbelief in hell or a disregard for the "unsaved."

 

At this time, I am unable to see it otherwise.