Totallyatpeace Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hesitent~ Thank you for "getting" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Is that entirely true? There are lots of paths people I care about sometimes choose to take - that I believe will create mini hells for them in this life (disastrous relationship choices/substance misuse to name a couple) I passionately and completely believe they are making mistakes - but after mentioning it a couple of times when they ask - I stop trying to rescue them and spend my time with them enjoying their company. Just because their mistakes are time limited and not for an eternity does that let me off the callous tag? No, it doesn't let you off. The hells you describe and the "hell" that fundies believe in are like comparing apples and oranges. Let me ask you: if you had inside information that your friend was going to be killed on their way to work in the morning, and you were sure of it, would you sit back and drink tea with them the evening before after they shrugged off your initial warnings? If you "knew" that they would die, you would likely make an extreme effort to keep them from heading off to work the next day. If you knew for a fact and acted otherwise, I would say there is a degree of callousness there. Fundy hell is worse than death. Count in your mind a prison sentence in the most intolerable place you can imagine. Now calculate that you will serve 1 billion years and that after that billion years you will have not yet served a fraction of your sentence because you must serve eternity. The argument was that you can't truly believe this without taking extreme measures to keep others from going there. Otherwise, callous. And, I may have painted a straw man for some christians, but the belief system that I grew up with is fairly portrayed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hesitent~ Thank you for "getting" it. No one was suggesting that we want you to be some kind of obnoxious hellfire-preaching evangelist on this site. What a few of us are asking is how you have come to understand and mentally arrange this hell doctrine, if in fact you do believe in it. I see no evidence to indicate you actually believe in hell. We were not discussing evangelism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 And as I stated earlier, you all know what the Bible says and I have made it clear already what I believe. Now that I have made it clear, what is possibly left to be said, Reach? Do you feel that I cannot possibly continue to be a member here because of what I believe? Is the damage too great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 And as I stated earlier, you all know what the Bible says and I have made it clear already what I believe. Now that I have made it clear, what is possibly left to be said, Reach? Do you feel that I cannot possibly continue to be a member here because of what I believe? Is the damage too great? I'm not talking about your membership here, Tap. Not at all. I don't see any damage. Talking about the truth or facts, as we see them, is beneficial to all of us. I plan on continuing my education as long as I live. I believe in being teachable. I honestly think you really don't believe in hell. I think a belief in hell will bring about a behavior change, a radical one, regardless of the personality you have. As you know, most people here would find certain behavior repulsive. That is not to say that all Christian behavior is distasteful. And I don't fault you if you cannot believe in hell. After I thought about it and studied the subject for a few years, I could no longer hold to a belief in hell either. I was simply hoping you would attempt to address this issue and I appreciate the fact that you are doing so. Take a breath. Chill? Reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I just hope TAP understands how her cherished beliefs have caused much pain for many people here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 No, it doesn't let you off. The hells you describe and the "hell" that fundies believe in are like comparing apples and oranges. Let me ask you: if you had inside information that your friend was going to be killed on their way to work in the morning, and you were sure of it, would you sit back and drink tea with them the evening before after they shrugged off your initial warnings? If you "knew" that they would die, you would likely make an extreme effort to keep them from heading off to work the next day. If you knew for a fact and acted otherwise, I would say there is a degree of callousness there. Fundy hell is worse than death. Count in your mind a prison sentence in the most intolerable place you can imagine. Now calculate that you will serve 1 billion years and that after that billion years you will have not yet served a fraction of your sentence because you must serve eternity. The argument was that you can't truly believe this without taking extreme measures to keep others from going there. Otherwise, callous. And, I may have painted a straw man for some christians, but the belief system that I grew up with is fairly portrayed here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I accept all the things that are being said about the awfulness of fundy hell. I agree with most of the arguments that are being put forward to refute the existence of hell and the suggestions as to why other's are finding TAP's belief in hell incomprehensible. I just don't see how TAP's way of being indicates she is either callous or doesn't actually believe in hell. I accept that the examples I have given of incidences where I would not intervene all the time to rescue people from taking a certain path are way down the hell continum but they are still on it - and my inaction is about things other than disbelief or callousness. Perhaps a better argument would be that my my limited attempts to help save lives in Africa - does not mean that I don't really believe people die by their thousands on a daily basis of starvation or that I am callous. I think it means I feel powerless - I think my actions wouldn't make a difference - I think people might get pissed off if I banged on about it all the time - people Know -they don't need me to tell them - sometimes its so awful I'd rather not think about it and prefer to watch TV instead. lots of reasons ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I just don't see how TAP's way of being indicates she is either callous or doesn't actually believe in hell. She most definitely is not callous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 The argument was that you can't truly believe this [Ed. hell doctrine] without taking extreme measures to keep others from going there. Otherwise, callous. Precisely. That is the only way I am able to see this. And, I may have painted a straw man for some christians, but the belief system that I grew up with is fairly portrayed here. I think that what has been portrayed here follows the New Testament teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 TAP, I've had this big problem with most teaching about Hell for most of mychristian life - although for most of my christian life I have'nt believed in the existence of a literal hell or related to a God who would send anyone there. But many of the people I care most about in my life do - and therefore, although I don't know you - I find it easy to accept that your way of being plus your belief does not suggest you are either callous or don't believe. Only a certain kind of person would behave in a certain kind of way as a result of a certain kind of belief. There are many variables. I hope you don't leave the site. That would be a shame. This has been one of the best threads I've read so far - for me. In an aside - and this is a bit of a bummer - as this wasn't my intention at all ... my own arguments have just convicted me to go try and do a bit more to make poverty history ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 “I honestly think you really don't believe in hell.” Yes, I do. And here comes the fear factor. I have a loving relationship with my Creator but won’t, for one second hide the fact that I fear eternal torment and separation from him. Please know, after the discussions I have had here it would be much easier for me to be a Buddhist or follow Wicca. I don’t want to comment further on why I believe hell to be the truth until I read through the links that Zoe left for me. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 In an aside - and this is a bit of a bummer - as this wasn't my intention at all ... my own arguments have just convicted me to go try and do a bit more to make poverty history ... Fabulous You gotta love people of conscience! "There was a time when people connected thinking with doing and could be depended upon to alter their way of life as the result of a chain of reasoning." -C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Kudos to you, Heistant, for doing just that! -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I just don't see how TAP's way of being indicates she is either callous or doesn't actually believe in hell. She most definitely is not callous. Precisely! That is why I have come to the conclusion she cannot possibly believe in hell. A side issue---> Hesitent, you may be interested in a book called The Road to Hell: The Ravaging Effects of Foreign Aid and International Charity by Michael Maren. From Amazon.com Before you mail another check to Save the Children or join the Peace Corps, read this book. Michael Maren shows that the international aid industry is a big business more concerned with winning its next big government contract than helping needy people. The problem isn't a lack of charity missions in the Third World, but that the best intentions of these idealists are often inadvertently destructive, thanks to a deadly combination of their naiveté and the willingness of native elites to exploit them. Maren spent many years in Africa living this life. This is a splendid, literate, muckraking memoir of his experiences. From Publishers Weekly Despite the overstated title, this book is a forceful and disturbing portrait of Western intervention in Somalia, plus an investigation of underscrutinized aid foundations. Perhaps because of the book's ambition, Maren's narrative is disjointed, but readers will find it worth the effort. "[D]oing relief and development work in the context of oppression is counterproductive," he asserts, and his personal experience in Somalia, where, after a Peace Corps stint in Kenya, he returned as an aid worker and journalist, bears this out. While the Cold War fueled aid to Somalia, much of the aid was channeled by local power brokers to further their own ends. Indeed, while Somalia was once self-sufficient, it is now chronically dependent on imports of foreign food. Maren is equally scathing about prominent charities such as CARE and Save the Children, which he terms mercenaries more concerned with self-perpetuation than actual famine relief. CARE, he charges, once shipped food to armed fighters in Somalia, while Save the Children "projects don't work." His portrait of the aid biz emphasizes that it is driven mainly by grain-trading companies eager to unload excess capacity, even as their advertisements feature starving victims. Maren's brief report from Rwanda suggests that there, too, aid is falling into the wrong hands and thus financing a war. Maren maintains that journalists are too dependent on such aid organizations to properly evaluate them, and he proposes that an independent agency be established for that purpose. Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc. Relax, Hesitent. You'll be able to keep your money, guilt-free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Fabulous You gotta love people of conscience! "There was a time when people connected thinking with doing and could be depended upon to alter their way of life as the result of a chain of reasoning." -C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Kudos to you, Heistant, for doing just that! -Lokmer <{POST_SNAPBACK}> double bummer - now you've applauded my comments I will really actually have to go and DO something ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 And here comes the fear factor. I have a loving relationship with my Creator but won’t, for one second hide the fact that I fear eternal torment and separation from him. I was going to write a hateful post, but I knew that TAP is being held by fear. Isn't that the basis of that hateful faith? Fear? She has my sympathy. Perhaps all fundys should have sympathy except for preachers. They make a living off of that fear. Goddamn fucking fear pimps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 double bummer - now you've applauded my comments I will really actually have to go and DO something ! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Phew looks like Reach may have supplied a get out clause .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 double bummer - now you've applauded my comments I will really actually have to go and DO something ! For sure But...do check out the book Reach recommends - it's quite excellent, and (if nothing else) it will help you understand how to help in ways that are *actually* helpful, rather than unintentionally destructive. Sometimes, the best thing you can do to alleviate poverty is by helping a community member find a job. Just always keep your eyes open and your mind sharp, and they will guide your actions and passions to a more productive place than if you just lead with your heart. Your compassion should be the engine pushing the car, not the steering wheel. -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 And here comes the fear factor. I have a loving relationship with my Creator but won’t, for one second hide the fact that I fear eternal torment and separation from him. That's it right there. The fear factor. TAP, I want to thank you for your most gracious behavior while attempting to answer questions that I know, from experience, are impossible to answer. When you get home from work this evening, you owe yourself a nice, tall cold one. -Reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 When you get home from work this evening, you owe yourself a nice, tall cold one. Or perhaps one of these. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Cute, Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 In TAP's defense, I see exactly what she's doing. To carry the death analogy further, she is standing on the shoulder of the freeway, and we're in the freeway. Trucks are coming, but we've already told her 'don't you tell me about no trucks, we've been waiting for trucks for 2000 years now and there ain't been no truck so far'. Considering that on this freeway, the only way off is to walk off yourself, all she could do is yell at us until we die. Since that would be futile, and no matter how much yelling she did, none of us would move, what would be the point? hehe. On the other hand I agree with reach. I lived that way for many years, telling myself I believed in god even though I hated many of his doctrines. What did it for me was finally accepting that my evidence was colored by my faith, not the other way around. I slowly realized that I had stopped believing long before I admitted it to myself. Just ask god for something you know he would want. Then watch it not happen. Then anguish over why, then accept that he doesn't answer prayer because he doesn't exist. Then realize that this phenomenon happens thousands of times daily, over and over and over. And yet people continue to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just ask god for something you know he would want. Then watch it not happen. Then anguish over why, then accept that he doesn't answer prayer because he doesn't exist. Then realize that this phenomenon happens thousands of times daily, over and over and over. And yet people continue to believe. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly. Just....exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 A.) I am not callous and cold. I will walk away from a situation before I allow myself to become that way. I think this goes to the root of the problem. You're an excellent person- caring, considering, tactful. It's well documented how well respected you are for the person you are. Now I'm going to follow Reach's example & be very honest about what I understand here. You're more willing to run & hide than truly stand up & discuss what you believe. Merely stating the obvious & saying there's no more to talk about is obviously not enough, it's been restated several times in this thread that its painfully obvious. When it comes to heaven or hell, which is the greater motivator, fear or pleasure? With you, I see it is a resounding check in the fear column. You may disagree, but I'm sure others will back me up, and I can use your own posts as reference to the fact: And here comes the fear factor. I have a loving relationship with my Creator but won’t, for one second hide the fact that I fear eternal torment and separation from him. Yes, fear of hell is a given. But you're also showing a fear of losing heaven. There's not much pleasure involved in this at all. Which brings me to my first question. Why does a loving, benevolent, omnipresent God need to motivate primarily by negative means? Fear is a negative motivator, there's nothing much positive about using fear as a means to achieve something. And the fact that a God who is supposed to be loving uses it as the ultimate guide stick should tell you something. That's not unconditional love, it's not even decent, respectful love. What is holy about condemning anyone? Believing in God, as much as you also believe in being good, caring & decent, also means you believe in condeming others. That's a big reason why we find it hard that you really believe in hell. Why does a loving God, with love for all man, think that its okay/righteous to send a good person to hell just because they don't believe in him. Where is the benevolence, love, and goodness in that? Its pure condemnation for selfish, callous means. And as much as you say you're not callous, at the heart of it, if you believe in hell, you have to be callous. Because God, in this respect, is callous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 And for the record, as someone who respects you & cares about your future, because you are such a great person, it rips my heart out and tramples all over it to see that you and so many other people are resigned to believe in hell (& the rest of the negative mandates of a loving God) just because of fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 yea I know exactly what you mean ZOE,I run across the same things. The other day I had an awesome talk with my little sister, who returned from a fundy mission trip in Japan last year. she told me she hasnt gone to church in a year, because she is burned out on the whole fundy culture. She is in a vulnerable position, and open to deconverting. it would have been a good opportunity to tell her my real opinions about christianity. but I found myself trying to talk her into attending a more liberal church like Vineyard. because her faith is still so important to her. I dare not be responsible for her deconverting and make her life more complicated. I want no Karma-- good or bad That was very considerate and respectful of you. I call that true moral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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