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Goodbye Jesus

for TAP totallyatpeace


been borg again

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That was very considerate and respectful of you. I call that true moral.

 

I agree. Bravo.

 

Merlin

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I suppose there is nothing I can add here since you've all done a good job of analyzing me.

 

Thank you for the original questions, Been Borg Again. I did my best to answer you honestly.

 

Tap

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I suppose there is nothing I can add here since you've all done a good job of analyzing me. 

 

Thank you for the original questions, Been Borg Again. I did my best to answer you honestly.

 

Tap

 

I loved your honesty... you provided a valuable insight into another way of thinking... something I value *very* much.

 

Take care... see you soon!

 

Merlin

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I did my best to answer you honestly.

 

TAP, you've done an admirable job. No one could have done better.

 

No one should expect more.

 

Thanks for sharing.

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TAP, you've done an admirable job.  No one could have done better.

 

No one should expect more.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Here, Here!

 

Merlin

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I suppose there is nothing I can add here since you've all done a good job of analyzing me. 

 

Thank you for the original questions, Been Borg Again. I did my best to answer you honestly.

 

Tap

 

Wait! Wait! I haven't analyzed you yet.

 

I need ze practice.

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Fear was why I remained a Christian for as long as I did. I was not only afraid of hell, I was afraid of what my family would think of me. Now I realized that my parents will love me regardless, and I really don't care about what the rest of them think.

 

What helped me was thinking about it logically. If I thought that most of the Bible was a metaphor, then hell had to be, too. If there were other myths with hells, why couldn't Christianity be just another myth too? Rationality helped me break free from all the years of brainwashing that I had been through. I know it isn't easy to take that step, but it's either that or be afraid for the rest of your life, and I'd rather live life than be afraid of it.

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TAP, You da best

 

TAP = TotallyAwesomePerson

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An excerpt from Robert G. Ingersoll's

 

Crumbling Creeds -

 

(Nobody says it quite like Bobby. :HaHa: )

 

Crumbling Creeds (1890)

Robert Green Ingersoll

 

 

The great reason why the orthodox creeds have become unpopular is, that all teach the dogma of eternal pain.

 

In old times, when men were nearly wild beasts, it was natural enough for them to suppose that God would do as they would do in his place, and so they attributed to this God infinite cruelty, infinite revenge. This revenge, this cruelty, wore the mask of justice. They took the ground that God, having made man, had the right to do with him as he pleased. At that time they were not civilized to the extent of seeing that a God would not have the right to make a failure, and that a being of infinite wisdom and power would be under obligation to do the right, and that he would have no right to create any being whose life would not be a blessing. The very fact that be made man, would put him under obligation to see to it that life should not be a curse.

 

The doctrine of eternal punishment is in perfect harmony with the savagery of the men who made the orthodox creeds. It is in harmony with torture, with flaying alive and with burnings. The men who burned their fellow-men for a moment, believed that God would burn his enemies forever.

 

No civilized men ever believed in this dogma. The belief in eternal punishment has driven millions from the church. It was easy enough for people to imagine that the children of others had gone to hell; that foreigners had been doomed to eternal pain; but when it was brought home when fathers and mothers bent above their dead who had died in their sins -- when wives shed their tears on the faces of husbands who had been born but once -- love suggested doubts and love fought the dogma of eternal revenge.

 

This doctrine is as cruel as the hunger of hyenas, and is infamous beyond the power of any language to express -- yet a creed with this doctrine has been called "the glad tidings of great joy" -- a consolation to the weeping world. It is a source of great pleasure to me to know that all intelligent people are ashamed to admit that they believe it -- that no intelligent clergyman now preaches it, except with a preface to the effect that it is probably untrue.

 

I have been blamed for taking this consolation from the world -- for putting out, or trying to put out, the fires of hell; and many orthodox people have wondered how I could be so wicked as to deprive the world of this hope.

 

The church clung to the doctrine because it seemed a necessary excuse for the existence of the church. The ministers said: "No hell, no atonement; no atonement, no fall of man; no fall of man, no inspired book; no inspired book, no preachers; no preachers, no salary; no hell, no missionaries; no sulphur, no salvation." (emphasis mine - Fwee)

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TAP,

 

though I've never talked to you on the forums (I don't talk much around here, I don't like confrontation and I'm weak at debating) you sound like such a cool person! :grin:

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I suppose there is nothing I can add here since you've all done a good job of analyzing me. 

 

Thank you for the original questions, Been Borg Again. I did my best to answer you honestly.

 

Tap

 

While I can't say I agree with your views I would like to say thanks for sharing them with us. I respect the fact that you don't come here to evangalize but will answer when asked. Not sure I would want to share my beliefs on a Christian site.

 

I enjoy learning why people believe what they believe. Neither side here is likely to change the other's beliefs but we all seem to learn from the discussion. :thanks:

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TAP,

 

though I've never talked to you on the forums (I don't talk much around here, I don't like confrontation and I'm weak at debating) you sound like such a cool person!  :grin:

 

 

Maybe you and I should hold our own debate since we sound like a perfect match. :grin:

 

 

 

Jaded~

 

Thank you.

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Thanks TAP, maybe we could debate lol! :grin:

 

I'm only a teenager and I come here to learn about religion and such and freethinkers, and this is a cool forum to learn from. Religion and philosophy fascinate me hehe...I was brought up in a liberalish Christian world so after it stopped making sense to me at 10, I had the freedom to discover what I believed in, and I found Deism/Freethinking a few years later and I keep on searching and learning, as I'm fascinated by what people believe, about other religions. Anyways I'll post my testimony when I get around to it, I just have a ton of homework right now so no time...gotta finish an english essay...bye! :woohoo:

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Keep one thing in mind...I can't post in the anti-testimony area so don't think I am ignoring you.

 

My best to you....

 

 

Tap

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TAP, on some levels I can understand all of what you said and why you are here, what you do and how you use the WAG to unwind.

 

What I don't understand and I'm not sure you see is that the hell doctrine (or the doctrine of eternal punishment and rewards) is the greatest conflict that ever exists. I hate conflict and the discomfort of confrontation just as much as you do. However, God is the one who has iniated this confrontation and he has said, according to Christianity, "Either you play it my way or you can burn in hell for all eternity and by the way, I love you."

 

Forget conflict and confrontation. According to Christianity, we are at war with God. Now, I didn't start this conflict but I seem to be stuck playing God's wargames.

 

That does not sit right with me. Does that sit right with you?

 

Reach

 

Hello Reach,

 

I questioned the whole Hell doctrine alot as well. I keep digging in the Bible until I came across some scripture from the Gospels. I started reading the Gospels and found some things that seemed almost impossible to straighten in my character.

 

I then got depresed and began to wonder, Am I good enough?

 

I prayed for God to help me see the answer, result, way to the scripture that I needed. I have prayed this many times, in many different situations. God has always seemed to lead me to the scripture that I needed to see. I will say for the record that I wanted to see the "right" scripture, but its not like I prayed about the confusions of Hell and God lead me to scripture on fasting or something.

 

Anyhow, the scripture that summed all of the confusion for me on this topic was when Jesus said "unless our righteouness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, then we shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

Now, my personal POV. If God has lead me to this scripture and has eased my spirit, so to speak, about this, Am I condemned to hell if I missed something?I dont believe I am. I took the righteous steps in the discovery of this scripture. I prayed directly to God, and waited for guidance. I didnt talk to my wife, family, pastor, or whoever.

 

The funny thing is that my family always gets mad at me because I dont go to them for help. I used to feel bad when this happened until one day I was reading my dail devotions and the story around Saul opened to me. I thought about the sin that Israel committed so unintentionally, and casually.

 

They wanted a King to go about in front of them, they wanted to be like the other nations. I reliased that sometimes people want something tangable to be with them or in their defense. I reliased how much easier it would be for m,e to forget all the wonderful things God has enabled for me in my life.

 

If we want a king or touchable, viewable something in our lives instead of our invisible King, then He will let that be. Thats kinda my take on how faith is. I believe something that I cant physically feel, but I can sensibly see in action in my life.

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What happens when you can neither physically feel, nor sensibly see in action in your life?

 

What then?

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Someone I'm writing to reminded me of this. It's about the struggle you always hear about being a christian....walking that narrow road. And of course the struggles non christians have with being non christians in a highly religious society.

 

 

The difference between your struggle and mine, is that mine is with other people (christians in this case). Your struggle is with yourself. Which is sad because you will always have you. I can always find new people.

 

edit: This post is primarily directed at YoYo.

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She most definitely is not callous.

Precisely! That is why I have come to the conclusion she cannot possibly believe in hell.

 

A side issue---> Hesitent, you may be interested in a book called The Road to Hell: The Ravaging Effects of Foreign Aid and International Charity by Michael Maren.

 

Relax, Hesitent. You'll be able to keep your money, guilt-free.

Correct me if Im wrong everone, but I have been labeled annoying, avoiding the truth, dont make sense, etc.. not callous though.

 

I believe in Hell, but I believe more in Heaven, if that makes sense to anyone. I have alot of reasoning about this statement. Ill make just a few. Jesus said if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. I look at that statement( in context), and conclude that if we live by God, we will die by God. If we live by truths and evidences, then we will die by those things. If you loved your job and lived for the moment of that job, you will die by that moment.

 

I agree though. The church in general talks more about the gnashing of teeth stuff, than God wiping our tears, or the thrist or sun that we would no longer need.

 

God is also very direct about the fullfillment of His word. If this is all true, and the acts of the world in the Bible are all true; then there are some people that will live without God and deny the scriptures. If everyone believed the scriptures, then Gods Day would never come too pass. It even says that this world is still here because of the elect few, lest it would have been shortened.

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Someone I'm writing to reminded me of this. It's about the struggle you always hear about being a christian....walking that narrow road. And of course the struggles non christians have with being non christians in a highly religious society.

The difference between your struggle and mine, is that mine is with other people (christians in this case). Your struggle is with yourself. Which is sad because you will always have you. I can always find new people.

 

edit: This post is primarily directed at YoYo.

 

 

Wow. This post was my life as a Christian in a nutshell. Course I was a hellfire preaching fundy who tried to convince as many as I possibly could to escape the flames by faith.

 

Trouble is that faith is misplaced. Not just because of the doctrine of hell proving God to be an inconsistant liar, but also because the Bible is an inconsistent book full of lies. God loves you--unless you reject him, is not consistant. God made the earth and man and behold it was very good--but then in the next chapter God's "good" people are cursed and all their decendents after them for one act of disobedience. Trouble is this myth is repeated in most of the ancient pagan religions. Its a myth, and yet Christians claim that because of this disobedience mankind will go to hell if they don't believe the gospel (story about Jesus) blindly with no factual evidence to prove its validity.

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Oh yes, the precious elect, which will not be that many.  The path to righteousness is narrow....FEW will find it.  Aren't there like over a billion Christians in the world?  I can't wait to see which sect got it all figured out to be considered the elect few. I'll place my bets on the Jews, the non-christian ones.

 

That reminds me of that Rowan Atkinson sketch.

 

The Devil

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Now, my personal POV. If God has lead me to this scripture and has eased my spirit, so to speak, about this, Am I condemned to hell if I missed something?

YoYo, thanks for sharing your point of view. I appreciate your input.

 

I don't think any of us are truly condemned to hell. Where is the judge and jury anyway and where are the laws under which we should be living? Do you have any proof for that? ;)

 

I have house guests arriving in a couple hours so I will be away from the site for about three days, more than likely. I'll talk to you all again early next week.

 

-Reach

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YoYo,

 

The larger issue is that Christian doctrine is completely incoherent. Take for instance the little recitation you gave about the Kingdom of God. You gave a nice recitation about how a person can enter into this kingdom and the Bible in places talks about it as a factual place in time and space. However, the same Bible has Jesus saying, "The Kingdom of God is inside of you". It would have been really nice if the Christian message and cosmology would be consistent, don't you think? Now my young believer, you need to understand that to those of us who are ExChristians and have studied the Bible and theology in depth; the Christian religion, to include the Bible and doctrines are viewed with justification as pure mythology. The Bible claims God is not the author of confusion, yet the various claims in the Bible are contradictory, thus directly leading to confusion (hence 3,500+ difering interpretation/denominations) and the Bible even says that God has and does confuse people. Really YoYo, if the Bible God was really God, it could at least avoid violating the law of non-contradiction and show some sense of coherency. You, Tap and few others bring a gentle approach to the Christian message, but stripped of the personal niceness that you all personally exhibit, the Christian message boils down to believe or endure torture for eternity. As a deist and a rational man, I do not fear your Bible God, for nothing that exhibits self-contradiction can actually exist. I am persoanlly saddened that good people like you two are enslaved to a false mythology and are unable to see Christianity for what it is, a large scale confidence scam that uses a made up problem (original sin), offers a custom made solution (belief in Jesus) and the threat of a fictional eternal torture (hell) to ensure compliance.

 

Bruce

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I think it means I feel powerless - I think my actions wouldn't make a difference - I think people might get pissed off if I banged on about it all the time - people Know -they don't need me to tell them - sometimes its so awful I'd rather not think about it and prefer to watch TV instead.

 

lots of reasons ...

 

 

I will concede you this point. Thinking back on it, I felt powerless as well and this feeling causes most to freeze up.

 

As for Africa, do what you can. Care. But don't wear the weight of the world on your shoulders. It's far to heavy and you are just one person.

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She most definitely is not callous.

 

 

No doubt about it. If you re read what I wrote, it was stated only to make a point, it was not an adjetive pinned on her.

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Precisely. That is the only way I am able to see this.

 

 

 

It seems like you and I grew up listening to the same evangelistic, guilt-laden sermons each week. Scary :scratch:

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