for TAP totallyatpeace

[Totallyatpeace]

Edit**

 

I changed my mind.

[Vigile]

“I honestly think you really don't believe in hell.”

 

Yes, I do.

 

And here comes the fear factor. I have a loving relationship with my Creator but won’t, for one second hide the fact that I fear eternal torment and separation from him.

 

Tap

 

Tap,

 

This statement seems honorable when seen through a christian paradigm as you do but I have to tell you as one who has been on both sides of that statement I feel sorry for you now, I really do. I don't mean this condescendingly. It's really an awful place to be, strapped under all that guilt and fear and the label of love that gets stamped on top of it doesn't make it any easier to bear. I used to tell myself and others that Jesus makes you free but the truth is I never was so free as I was when I finally was able to acknowledge the fact that hell is not a literal place.

 

I said earlier that I didn't think that your faith was harmful to you. This type of belief however is not healthy for anyone. Again, I don't say this to be condescending and I'm truly sorry if it comes across that way. I make these statements because I have been where you are and came out the other side.

[Vigile]

Do you feel that I cannot possibly continue to be a member here because of what I believe?  Is the damage too great?

 

Please don't go away. You brighten up the room darling.

[Outsider2]

I just hope TAP understands how her cherished beliefs have caused much pain for many people here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

TAP,

 

Nightflight sums up all that is being said here perfectly. I don't think your membership here is in danger or people will turn against you. However, it does affect relationships that are made here. Sorry to be direct.. How can we be friends when you believe it is justified that everyone here is going to Hell? You are a nice person from what I have read many people like you, but this is a thorny issue because your beliefs are found to be repugnant to some people here.

 

For me my walk away from christianity was more than just studying. Like Bishop Spong I was a "believer in Exile". I was forced from the holy land by honesty and intergrity to live with the outcasts in the desert. In this desert I have found a people who were not the vile creatures foretold in scriptures, but a people who had the same desires as me. Like people who are in exile, I did not choose to leave and in exile I have found a new home and holy land. There is much beyond the sacred walls of scripture and the liturgy of religion.

[Vigile]

like if you believe it's ok to eat babies...it doesn't really matter how nice you are.  There were lots of nice people who supported hitler.  I still like TAP, although I have to be honest that I feel a belief in hell PLUS a continued worship of creator of said hell is a character flaw.

 

But hell, I'm not giving her the boot for one flaw.  I mean I have plenty of flaws...I'm pretty damned narcissistic for one thing.

 

 

I have to run to Tap's defense a little here. The belief is repugnant, I agree. Most of us here were in her shoes at one point in our lives though and I think most would agree that though we believed this stuff, we didn't necessarily want it. I think it would be a character flaw if she actually liked the idea that some here were going to hell, but just believing that we are doesn't mean that she wants it. She's married to christianity and all its flaws. She still sees things through a christian paradigm and can't see her way out of the box. It's not like she was out window shopping for religions and chose christianity after a careful analysis of its pros and cons. She was likely handed her beliefs as were most of us. It's a logical flaw then yes, but character flaw, I'm not sure.

[Fweethawt]

but character flaw, I'm not sure.

 

Is one's character more becoming without said belief?

[Alice]

I will concede you this point.  Thinking back on it, I felt powerless as well and this feeling causes most to freeze up. 

 

As for Africa, do what you can.  Care.  But don't wear the weight of the world on your shoulders.  It's far to heavy and you are just one person.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vigile del fuoco,

 

at the risk of admitting shallow tendencies in the midst of a deep thread .... bless your heart for letting me win something - you are now back in the italian club!

[Vigile]

Is one's character more becoming without said belief? 

 

 

I don't know. I guess there is some correlation between belief and character, but not necessarily a strong one. For example, I don't steal, it is not in my character to. But, I don't believe on a metaphysical level that it is wrong to steal. It is wrong in the context of maintaining an orderly society but it is not right or wrong on a larger contextual plane that that. Does my belief that it is not wrong to steal mean that I have a character flaw? I don't steal. It's not in my character to. Yet I believe that the moral value assigned to it is one of pragmatism, nothing more.

 

I think Tap doesn't like that there is a hell, in fact she in so many words stated that. Yes she beleives it exists, but in her frame of reference she is trapped by the belief. She can't help it if it exists, to her it just does. She doesn't want it to be true, she just thinks that it is.

[Alice]

Thank you TAP.  I realize it is quite a lot to sift through, and you can research further, you dont' have to take those sites words for it.  But the farther you dig...I think the more you'll find that your "good news" is MUCH MUCH better than you thought it was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

TAP,

 

I'm still living in the margins of christianity - I can't let go of what still feels like a real relationship with God - I still worry that if I let go completely somehow I'll lose my life goals of increasing the 'fruits of the spirit in my life'.

 

Zoe's words here really struck a cord with me - I am finding that my digging is uncovering good news that is MUCH MUCH better than I thought it was.

[nirrti]

TAP,

 

I'm still living in the margins of christianity - I can't let go of what still feels like a real relationship with God - I still worry that if I let go completely somehow I'll lose my life goals of increasing the 'fruits of the spirit in my life'.

 

Zoe's words here really struck a cord with me - I am finding that my digging is uncovering good news that is MUCH MUCH better than I thought it was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What fruits are you refering to? If you mean the "fruits of the spirit," those are analagous to many other religions. It doesn't take believing in God in a certain way to live an ethical life. In fact, to acertain that you know all there is about God's will limits him because supposedly, he/she is infinite and has no form. Has it occured to you that God only wants us to do the best we can toward each other and live our lives with integrety?

[Fweethawt]

I think Tap doesn't like that there is a hell, in fact she in so many words stated that.  Yes she beleives it exists, but in her frame of reference she is trapped by the belief.  She can't help it if it exists, to her it just does.  She doesn't want it to be true, she just thinks that it is.

 

Okay, I see what you're getting at now.

 

I just had to put on a different thinking-cap for a few moments. That's all.

[pandora]

I've never heard it stated better.  That's exactly what it was for me.  I used to lay awake in bed at night frightened that I would screw up and end up there or with tears in my eyes for my friends who I could not convince to escape the fire.  And through this I still found love for the one who set it all up.  It was very twisted and something that caused a lot of psychological trauma for me that I in some ways still deal with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Something I just thought of... if we see Stockholm as a subconscious defense mechanism (I don't know if this is academically true, but if it isn't ,it should be), then that makes it all the more twisted. You want the captor to like you, so you sympathize with them, what they are doing, and the circumstances that led to it, (people are much less likely to act out on threats if they feel that they are being understood) and that leads to an inability to see or a denial of the immorality of the authority's actions.

 

I only mention the somewhat obvious because I think that different people understand it a little differently.

[nirrti]

Believing in Hell takes alot of cognative dissonance and that's a huge burdon on Christians. Think about it. They believe that the majority of the world's population including close friends and family will be tortured for eternity. That's got put alot of stress on anyone and guilt for not "saving" those that died before them.

 

So I think many Christians put so much focus on Heaven and "God's love" believing what they don't think about will somehow disappear yet still they carry the belief in hell because otherwise, they're in danger of being sent their also.

[pandora]

Hesitent~

 

Thank you for "getting" it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I understand completely in what you are saying, but when I was Christian I felt the same way, but I just knew I wasn't passionate enough about my faith and thus betraying Christ in a way when I didn't work hard by spreading the gospel in both my words and actions. There is such thing as a tactful and kind prosyletizer.

 

Or so I thought. So maybe this is where Reach is coming from, because I come to the same conclusion that she has.

Maybe you just aren't as wholehearted into your faith as you think? Maybe getting people out of hell isn't a priority for you? I was taught that is my number one priority, displayed by actions AND gospel sharing.

[Vigile]

Something I just thought of... if we see Stockholm as a subconscious defense mechanism (I don't know if this is academically true, but if it isn't ,it should be), then that makes it all the more twisted.  You want the captor to like you, so you sympathize with them, what they are doing, and the circumstances that led to it, (people are much less likely to act out on threats if they feel that they are being understood) and that leads to an inability to see or a denial of the immorality of the authority's actions.

 

I only mention the somewhat obvious because I think that different people understand it a little differently.

 

Well said. And think about it. If an earthly king set up his kingdom in similar form, banishing all who did not pay him adulation to the dungeon and richly rewarding all who sang him praise, he would be rightly seen by most, including christians, as the despot that he really is. The reason they can't see it in god is because they have pre-adopted the belief and cognitive dissidence takes over from there.

[pandora]

That was very considerate and respectful of you. I call that true moral.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Vineyard is liberal? Huh? I guess compared to a Baptist conservative charismatic church it could be... but it isn't liberal at all. They just sugar coat all the same black and white beliefs.

[pandora]

Well said.  And think about it.  If an earthly king set up his kingdom in similar form, banishing all who did not pay him adulation to the dungeon and richly rewarding all who sang him praise, he would be rightly seen by most, including christians, as the despot that he really is.  The reason they can't see it in god is because they have pre-adopted the belief and cognitive dissidence takes over from there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly. Does anyone have any good sites and/or articles about psychology of religion? I am more looking for info on more recent insights, like Stockholm and psychology of the mind stuff.

[pandora]

if you want liberal...say it with me: UU or EPISCOPALIAN...perhaps even QUAKERS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree with you. Those are the ONLY ones that are liberal. Certain Methodist churches are very liberal as well and don't mind straying a bit from their official denomination.

[Vigile]

I realize she doesn't want it to be true...but the character flaw I was referring to is the cowardice implied by accepting such a thing as "ok".  She may not like it, but she accepts it enough to still accept God.

 

But like I said, I'm a narcissist, no one's perfect.

 

I agree with you, but I was I guess giving her the benefit of the doubt that she has not really examined this doctrine and her thoughts about it that closely. Not giving herself permission to ask herself "is this ok?"

[Merlinfmct87]

...I am persoanlly saddened that good people like you two are enslaved to a false mythology and are unable to see Christianity for what it is, a large scale confidence scam that uses a made up problem (original sin), offers a custom made solution (belief in Jesus) and the threat of a fictional eternal torture (hell) to ensure compliance.

 

Bruce

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now why can't I write like that?

 

Nicely done Bruce... that's very eloquent and resounding.

 

Merlin

[Totallyatpeace]

So maybe this is where Reach is coming from, because I come to the same conclusion that she has.

Maybe you just aren't as wholehearted into your faith as you think?  Maybe getting people out of hell isn't a priority for you? I was taught that is my number one priority, displayed by actions AND gospel sharing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm curious why you think I dont share the Gospel or what have I said or done that does not show Christ-like behavior?

 

I could have PM'd each of you over the past nine months and left you a Gospel message. I could have started threads in the debate section pleading for you to escape hell and follow Christ.

 

This comes straight from Bruce and Dave~

Finally, ExChistian Forums is not a "flock of sheep" for Christians to preach to, proselytize or otherwise engage in worship, etc. If Christian members wish to do any of the above, ChristianForums.com is avaialable.

 

What you don't know is what I do away from here. I share Christ everyday with people.

 

Here....I have to rely on my "actions".

[Totallyatpeace]

I am persoanlly saddened that good people like you two are enslaved to a false mythology and are unable to see Christianity for what it is, a large scale confidence scam that uses a made up problem (original sin), offers a custom made solution (belief in Jesus) and the threat of a fictional eternal torture (hell) to ensure compliance.

 

Bruce

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You don't honestly think I feel enslaved, do you? I have a decent head on my shoulders.

[Totallyatpeace]

Tap,

 

This statement seems honorable when seen through a christian paradigm as you do but I have to tell you as one who has been on both sides of that statement I feel sorry for you now, I really do.  I don't mean this condescendingly.  It's really an awful place to be, strapped under all that guilt and fear and the label of love that gets stamped on top of it doesn't make it any easier to bear.  I used to tell myself and others that Jesus makes you free but the truth is I never was so free as I was when I finally was able to acknowledge the fact that hell is not a literal place. 

 

I said earlier that I didn't think that your faith was harmful to you.  This type of belief however is not healthy for anyone.  Again, I don't say this to be condescending and I'm truly sorry if it comes across that way.  I make these statements because I have been where you are and came out the other side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I also have some other fears but they don't consume me. The fear factor I spoke of is about 1% in the big picture.

 

The "relationship" is the other 99%.

[Totallyatpeace]

TAP,

 

Nightflight sums up all that is being said here perfectly.  I don't think your membership here is in danger or people will turn against you.  However, it does affect relationships that are made here.  Sorry to be direct..  How can we be friends when you believe it is justified that everyone here is going to Hell?  You are a nice person from what I have read many people like you, but this is a thorny issue because your beliefs are found to be repugnant to some people here.

 

For me my walk away from christianity was more than just studying.  Like Bishop Spong I was a "believer in Exile".  I was forced from the holy land by honesty and intergrity to live with the outcasts in the desert.  In this desert I have found a people who were not  the vile creatures foretold in scriptures, but a people who had the same desires as me.  Like people who are in exile, I did not choose to leave and in exile I have found a new home and holy land.  There is much beyond the sacred walls of scripture and the liturgy of religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've been here a while, Outsider. Do you think, knowing my beliefs, that there haven't been quite a few threads that made me feel repulsed by what I read? I mean, think about that.

 

However, I have never once read those threads and thought less of the person writing them. It is your belief--your faith (or lack of) ---and your right.

 

I certainly hope you don't go through life judging people like that.

[Merlinfmct87]

Here....I have to rely on my "actions".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is going to sound odd, but everyone I know agrees that actions speak louder than words. It's one of the core problems of the people who come here... they preach one thing, do another, and expect no one to notice.

 

It's rather refreshing to meet someone who takes the kindness seriously.

 

Merlin