for TAP totallyatpeace

[Totallyatpeace]

I didn't feel enslaved as a Christian either, TAP.  And felt that by trying to follow God's Word that I had a descent head on my shoulders too. 

 

Just because a slave has a good master who forgives mistakes and may not beat the slave, doesn't make one a truly good master.  If that slave fears what will happen if they leave the slave owner, i.e.  beating, cutting off of the hand or foot, etc..  Then no matter how wonderfully they are treated by the master, they still are staying in fear of what would happen if they left.  They are indeed enslaved.

 

On that note..I personally think that your a wonderful and loving person.  To me though, an all loving god is not possible with the hell doctrine.  It is not taught in the OT, at all, only the new and by the one who claims to be the savior.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thankful~

 

If I was in a bad earthly relationship and felt enslaved, I would leave. Same with my faith. I'm not enslaved.

 

And felt that by trying to follow God's Word that I had a descent head on my shoulders too.

 

I had a good head on my shoulders long before I started following God's Word. It's my heart that changed.

[Totallyatpeace]

I have to run to Tap's defense a little here.  The belief is repugnant, I agree.  Most of us here were in her shoes at one point in our lives though and I think most would agree that though we believed this stuff, we didn't necessarily want it.  I think it would be a character flaw if she actually liked the idea that some here were going to hell, but just believing that we are doesn't mean that she wants it.  She's married to christianity and all its flaws.  She still sees things through a christian paradigm and can't see her way out of the box.  It's not like she was out window shopping for religions and chose christianity after a careful analysis of its pros and cons.  She was likely handed her beliefs as were most of us.  It's a logical flaw then yes, but character flaw, I'm not sure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I certainly hope you don't see this as a character flaw and I agree with what is stated above in red.

[Totallyatpeace]

I realize she doesn't want it to be true...but the character flaw I was referring to is the cowardice implied by accepting such a thing as "ok".  She may not like it, but she accepts it enough to still accept God.

 

But like I said, I'm a narcissist, no one's perfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hi, Zoe.

 

I don't like it. It's not okay and I don't fully understand it. But I'm not throwing the rest out because I don't fully understand hell.

 

 

I'm learning, Zoe.

[Totallyatpeace]

Okay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sorry if that came across as harsh. I didn't mean it that way at all.

 

 

Tap

[Totallyatpeace]

No, it's not me. It's Cleopatra.

 

 

To me she looks like she's totally at peace.

[bob]

Either you don't really care about us or you don't really believe in hell. You can't have it both ways.

I haven't read all of the responses yet. Just want to put my thoughts down before I lose them, which happens very easily.

I do agree with Reach. If TAP really believed in the bible hell, she should spend every moment trying to warn us of our impending doom. On the other hand, she knows that we already know about hell, so why waste time telling us something we already know, but reject? I guess that is the problem for modern day Christianity - over saturation. Is there anyone in the USA who hasn't been exposed to the gospel? I doubt it. So, all that is left to do is wait for it to happen...judgment day, that is.

 

Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie. I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell.

If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.... What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena.

--Ingersoll

[Alice]

That Ingersoll quote is very powerful and so true.  I did believe the hell doctrine for years and even though I know better now the years of believing it left a horrible impression.  I still haven't totally gotten over the fear completely.  I was worried sick and very could have well went insane believing such thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess I've been fortunate to be raised in the wishy washy UK - because hell as a literal material place with fire and pitch forks hasn't featured much in the teaching I've had over the years. I guess I always saw it as a hyperbolic metaphor for 'separation from God'. (Which in itself did trouble me deeply from time to time)

 

Interestingly - in UK churches where belief in a literal hell doesn't hold much sway - Heaven is generally still taken literally.

 

Is it only me - but doesn't the image of heaven that is generally promoted suck too?

 

The one I've been raised on is a sort of endless choir recital - and not even a black gospel one at that.

 

I tried to trace the seeds of my doubts a couple of days ago and arrived back at a friday night hymn practice for the choir in which I was a conscripted member singing Amazing Grace ... suddenly the lines 'when we've been there ten thousand years bright shining as the sun ... we've no less days to sing his praise than when we first began' stuck in my throat.

 

I can remember the shudder that went through me and the overwhelming desire to bring a shovel to that metaphor so I could dig myself an escape route ...

[Cerise]

No, it's not me.  It's Cleopatra.

To me she looks like she's totally at peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At least until she gets to Hell...

 

Cleo was Egyptian, not Christian. But maybe her heathen Gods gave more peace....

 

[Totallyatpeace]

LOL!!!

[Merlinfmct87]

At least until she gets to Hell...

 

Cleo was Egyptian, not Christian.  But maybe her heathen Gods gave more peace....

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

YOW...

 

Score one for Cerise...

 

Merlin

[Celsus]

TAP,

 

Yes, I do thnk you and other Christians are enslaved to a mythical belief system. I went from being a rather fundamentalist Christian to being a liberal Christian, before I deconverted and regardless of how a Christian glosses over or ignores the problematic and/or negative aspects of the BibleGod, the basis of Christianity is predicated upon falsehoods. These are, as I said before (1) All humans are defacto guilty due to original sin and are deserving of hell by an arbitrary decision of the BibleGod (2) Said BibleGod killed himself (irrational and illogical concept) in our stead as punishment for our personal and collective blood guilt and (3) Said BibleGod requires belief in this self-sacrifice (Jesus) to impute forgiveness or a person will be tortured infinitely in hell for finite sins they themselves committed or their ancestors committed (Adam & Eve/Original sin).

 

In my studied opinion, liberal Christians are just nicer versions of Fundamental Christians. The only real difference is the standard of behaviors that the two display. One (fundies) rave about repenting or you are going to hell. Liberal Christians say it is all about love. But behind both aspects, there is the belief that humans must accept Jesus' sacrifice or each human will be tortured in hell for eternity. As an ExChristian, I find the Christian theology to be incoherent, illogical, irrational and contradictory. Nice Christians may be good people individually, which I belive folks like you, BigToe, etc are, but to me this only looks like a nicer window dressing for a babrbaric belief system. An analogy I like to use is to illustrate my point is this: Liberal Christianity is like a person serving a spoiled piece of steak on fine china, it looks lovely and neat, but it still tastes bad and makes one ill, for the steak itself is bad.

 

In order to be a Christian and take the Bible seriously, one has to ignore the findings and demonstrated applications of science, history and basic logic. In my opinion, to live life following a belief system that is so wrong about so many things, is to be enslaved to a fantasy, no different than people who believe Star Trek is real. While I think you are a good and decent person, I still think you are eating spoiled meat and are trying to show us how nice it looks on fine china.

 

Bruce

[pandora]

TAP: I hope you aren't worn out yet, as I have another question for you. I must say I admire your ability to stay somewhat calm. You must have amazing self control. Perhaps the issue is just that you respect the forum rules and you don't want kicked off.

 

As to why you post here, why? It is primarily for your own edification, education, to show that Christians can be nice, what? Also, do you believe in original sin as perpetuated by Adam and Eve? I get the feeling that you are liberal enough to accept evolution, and doing that requries that original sin as taught in most churches be rejected as well.

 

When I was a Christian, I reasoned that everyone sins anyway, and that is what separates us, not original sin itself. Read (sorry no italics on quick reply, and I am not sure how to do the code) "Doing without Adam and Eve" by Patricia A. Williams for a good book a read about a couple months before my own deconversion. I got the book at Christian Theological Seminary next to my university. They are a very liberal Disciples of Christ seminary place, but mostly people who want to be Methodist preachers go there.

[LloydDobler]

What you don't know is what I do away from here. I share Christ everyday with people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hah! Who are you kidding? You spend all day right here just like the rest of us!

 

:wink:

[Totallyatpeace]

"TAP: I hope you aren't worn out yet, as I have another question for you."

 

 

 

Do you really want to continue this?

[NimbusBirdMgp]

... As for me. This Heaven and Hell is nothing but Bribery and a Fear Tactic to get others enslaved to the Belief System of Christianity. To me, I see a lot of reasons why the Bible can't be real and trusted. It has a lot of contradictions and is nothing but writing from the past. I can't accept it or the Religion to be true. My choice is not to reject what ever is good coming from the Cosmos for what is responsible for us to live. But if Competition got a better understanding how that is allowing the ruthless Power seekers who can do their Free Will over someone else's Free Will, then the idea of Hell to me seems almost justified. But I think such justification to this kind of Evil and Murder of other's having their Free Will being meet, should be a referie (Sp?) at the begin with and make it better understood what Hell means.

 

... Especially to me on ... "Ask and we will receive". Anything that is beyond our limitations, I would think if our Free Will and choices where convayed to a higher being, that it should be honored. This Praying idea isn't working. I find it useless to believe in the Bible when it has these contradictions.

 

... Why is it, when I ask all these things I don't get them?

 

... I've ask to find this chick for intimacy in my life and I'm not finding her, or her crossing my paths like on the internet or where else I go.

 

... I'm 50 years old now. Since age 14 when I first ask this in Prayer. And I have yet really not given up on the request. That's 36 years of Praying so to speak. Or at least still trying to shove it up in the air with any possibilities on it since not believing in 'God' any more.

 

... I am not accepting a 'No' answer with this. My disbelief in 'God' is part of that. Religion to me is man made. I expect a 'God or Deity' to have more respect if it exist.

[pandora]

"TAP: I hope you aren't worn out yet, as I have another question for you."

Do you really want to continue this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

yes, I am just curious... I hope you haven't been offended by anything I have told you. I didn't mean to sound abrasive.

[pandora]

... Why is it, when I ask all these things I don't get them?

 

... I've ask to find this chick for intimacy in my life and I'm not finding her, or her crossing my paths like on the internet or where else I go.

 

...  I'm 50 years old now.  Since age 14 when I first ask this in Prayer.  And I have yet really not given up on the request.  That's 36 years of Praying so to speak.  Or at least still trying to shove it up in the air with any possibilities on it since not believing in 'God' any more.

 

...  I am not accepting a 'No' answer with this.  My disbelief in 'God' is part of that.  Religion to me is man made.  I expect a 'God or Deity' to have more respect if it exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe God wants you to spend of a life of chastity as a monk or priest. JK

[Totallyatpeace]

Pandora~

 

I have not been offended at all and I hope I have not offended anyone here, either.

 

I will answer your questions tomorrow morning. I'm hittin' the town tonight.

[pandora]

So I want to do something that would encourage and strengthen your faith instead of tear it down, in helping to to resolve a inner confict I see  so many christians have with the concept of eternal hell vs. Love.

No I am not playing mind games with you or anything.

I just wanted you to Google the phrase " Origins of Hell Doctrine"

because you will find a few online essays and books by respected christian scholars  that  study the issue in depth and show that the common interpretation of eternal fire and brimstone is inaccurate and a doctrine that  solidified during the medival ages and a confusion over Jewish words, Idioms, and analogy ( idiom= a cultural phrase like "Its raining cats and dogs")

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Elaine Pagels' The Origens of Satan is a good one.

[pandora]

Pandora~

 

I have not been offended at all and I hope I have not offended anyone here, either.

 

I will answer your questions tomorrow morning.  I'm hittin' the town tonight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks, have fun! I haven't been offended, just reminded of the emotional pain and circular reasoning it took to maintain my worldview when I was a Christian.

[Outsider2]

I've been here a while, Outsider. Do you think, knowing my beliefs, that there haven't been quite a few threads that made me feel repulsed by what I read? I mean, think about that.

 

However, I have never once read those threads and thought less of the person writing them. It is your belief--your faith (or lack of) ---and your right.

 

I certainly hope you don't go through life judging people like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

TAP,

 

I was not judging you. I was talking about the about the issue of the believing in Hell and making friends here. It cannot be easy to be friends with someone that is going to Hell? There needs to be a balancing act with the beliefs of Christianity and the feelings you have for the hellbound. This makes it difficult to just be friends because the issue of Hell will always loom in the background.

 

I do not think less of you or " go through life judging people like that". The reason I don't do this is because I do not have belief system that has already judged them. Christianity has already judged us and you being a christian carry that belief with you.

 

TAP, I am trying to talk about this issue as objectively as possible. Unfortunately this issue always carry over to the personal realm because it has to do with beliefs. It is a tough issue to talk about and that is all I am doing. No judging, no high moral positioning, just talking about a serious issue that has affected everyone here.

[Totallyatpeace]

TAP,

I was not judging you.  I was talking about the about the issue of the believing in Hell and making friends here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hhhmmm......I need to think on this.

 

 

Okay. I'm done thinking.

 

I have many, many non-christian friends and when I sit and talk and spend time together with them, I am enjoying their company because of who they are. Their character, their personality, their vitality, their perspective on many things....

 

You honestly can't have a conversation with me without thinking about my faith? Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims-- among others, believe I am going to hell. I have never once considered that I can't be friends with them.

[Totallyatpeace]

  As to why you post here, why?  It is primarily for your own edification, education, to show that Christians can be nice, what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I came here as a reader to understand the Ex-Christian POV. After a while, I posted. I made the mistake of posting in the Debate section because I thought I knew the answer to something. Shortly after that my name turned "blue" and Dave had me for dinner. (kidding) I finally got a clue and realized I didn't belong in the debate section because I hate conflict. That was 9 months ago. But....here I am again. The bottom line? ....I started participating in general conversations, and like any forum that you enjoy, I enjoyed the company here.

 

Also, do you believe in original sin as perpetuated by Adam and Eve?

 

Yes

 

I get the feeling that you are liberal enough to accept evolution, and doing that requries that original sin as taught in most churches be rejected as well.

 

You are incorrect in that assumption. I am a young earth believer and not a liberal Christian. A liberal Christian rationalizes away the hard teachings of the Bible to appease those that are uncomfortable with it.

 

When I was a Christian, I reasoned that everyone sins anyway, and that is what separates us, not original sin itself. Read (sorry no italics on quick reply, and I am not sure how to do the code) "Doing without Adam and Eve" by Patricia A. Williams for a good book a read about a couple months before my own deconversion. I got the book at Christian Theological Seminary next to my university. They are a very liberal Disciples of Christ seminary place, but mostly people who want to be Methodist preachers go there.

 

Sounds interesting.......I'll take a look at it.

 

More tomorrow.

 

Good night.

[Totallyatpeace]

NimbusBirdMgp~

 

Why do you still pray for God to bring a beautiful woman into your life if you don't believe in God?

 

Tap

[Amethyst]

I am a young earth believer and not a liberal Christian.

 

How can anyone in the 21st century honestly believe that??? Science disproved it a long, long time ago!!!