A scriptural quandry for Christians

[Tyson]

I posted this on a Caribbean oriented website (I'm from that region and we are some of the most dogmatic Christian influenced people on the planet) and I've either received NO answers or free personal analysis about myself because the problem HAS to be with me and not the Bible.

 

In any event, I posted it because in the past I started posts that showed that the bible god and his so-called arch-enemy, Satan, evolved in theological thought over time. At one point satan (adversary) could be any adversary and NOT a personal name for an individual. Then he was an entity, an agent, so to speak from the divine court, used as a prosecutor of soughts before becoming an enforcer or one used to test the soul and ultimately arriving at the being many people envision today - an evil being, separated from God, bent on destroying God and man, has his own kingdom and army and plotting war with God.

 

Of course they took me to task and find it hard to believe that their god and his enemy are mere products of theological evolution so I presented the information below as an example and then - silence.

 

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I can hop over to any ex-Christian site and read where the great majority of people began losing faith in the Bible and subsequently, in the bible's god because of - the bible. How is that even possible? One thinks that the Bible provides support and fuel for one's faith in the bible's god doesn't it? Well countless ex-christians or those who were never even Christians but could see the problems from a distance came to different conclusions. It also proves to me that many Christians depend on their ministers to teach and explain the bible to them and do not spend enough time reading and studying for themselves using their OWN brains and reasoning skills to make their determinations.

 

Well there are two chapters in the Bible that shows up all kinds of problems with the theology of the Bible. If the bible's god is indeed perfect, holy, just, loving and all of that, these two chapters show someone different and it is inescapable as it is there in black and white. A seasoned Christian will find some way to rationalize away or just throw on the faith blinders and pretend it is not there.

 

In I Chronicles 21 we read:

 

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

 

By itself it just seems fine. Satan tempted David to number Israel, however, over in verse 7 we are told that this angered God and he went on a killing spree because of this. The final tally was 70,000 according to verse 14 because David, given a choice to pick his poison (verse 12), chose to fall upon the mercies of God. 70,000 dead Israelites was how much God's mercies were willing to limit the killing to. Christian scholars make the assumption that God was angry because David was numbering the people out of the great biblical evil known as pride OR because God did not authorize him to do so. Seems rather petty, but nevertheless, thinking for God, this is what they come up with.

 

There are scholars who point out that the books of Chronicles were written after the Jews went into captivity in Babylon or witten and/or edited while under Persian control. This was a time when Jewish theology took some dramatic turns in their understanding of their god and his one time agent and prosecutor, satan. Prior to becoming an entity unto himself with his own kingdom and army bent on overthrowing God as per later Jewish and then Christian theology, he was the agent God used to carry out his dirty work. God simply oversaw that the deed was carried out, but satan, his enforcer, was the one commissioned to carry out the acts as we see in the book of Job. Before this point in Jewish theology in earlier Israelite history, God was seen as author of both good and evil, but evil was seen as necessary to bring about good. So if killed a bunch of Egyptian firstborns (the evil), it was to rescue and preserve his people (the good). Just waving a hand and making them disappear and dropping them in Canaan would have been just too easy for him to do. Had to do it the dramatic way because he knew we would need the great example and Hollywood would need material for the annual Easter time showing of the Ten Commandments starring rifle man Charlton Heston. Hey! is dude still alive because he's gotta be like 213 years old by now.

 

Anyway, to prove this point we are fortunate to have an older book which shows the understanding of that time and which is obviously the basis for the story we find in I Chronicles 21. That book, chapter and verse is II Samuel 24:1 where were read something ENTIRELY different:

 

"And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and h emoved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

 

Huh??? In 1st Chronicles we simply read that Satan provoked David to number Israel and David did so and then it angered God, but the later writer of I Chronicles makes it appear that it was David's act of numbering the people that angered God and NOT that God was angry prior to this. It's all between David and Satan. Here we read that God was ALREADY angry with Israel for some unspecified reason and to find an excuse to punish them, he himself prodded David to go number Israel and when he does, God finds his excuse to off 70,000 Israelites and then pins the blame squarely on David.

 

So here are the problems:

 

1. In I Chronicles 21:1, Satan is the one responsible for provoking David to number Israel, an act that displeases God. We are not told anything else.

 

2. In II Samuel 24:1 we are told God was upset at Israel prior to the numbering and he then prompts David to number Israel only to turn around and condemn David for the act and then proceed to punish Israel for David's act even though Israel had nothing to do with David's trangression. David walks and 70,000 innocent people die instead.

 

Responses I expect to hear?

 

"God's ways are higher than our ways!" No kidding?!?!

 

"God's ways are past our understanding."

 

"God knew what he was doing."

 

"God must have had some purpose we cannot see or fathom."

 

"I don't know why, but I'll ask him when I get to heaven."

 

"That's the Old Testament. I don't even read it. I'm a New Testament Christian."

 

"You need Jesus! How dare you question the word of God?"

 

"You ask too much questions. Satan has you blinded."

 

"You don't have the spirit of God to help you discern the truth of his word."

 

"That's in the Bible?!?!?!"

[been borg again]

I think Satan in the CRON verse, is a mistranslation from the word "advesary"(= Gods anger).. .. from the Greek LXX manuscript, Cuz its aint int the Hebrew Mess. text if I rememeber.

IT is interesting isnt it , after the babylonian exile, all of the sudden the Advesary and God become two different entities ( example Job), even though still Satan was seen a buddy- servant to do gods work.

 

And it just so happens that Zorastorism also employs a dualistic black/white good/evil satan/god world view that the jews lacked before they were exiled...hmmmm.. very interesting, and given the fact that Jesuses hellenized jewish culture also had such concepts.

 

Funny how Islam and Jews accuse Christianity of being polytheistic all because of the Satan/God thing.

 

 

I have given up trying to talk to christians about this, they think its a boring topic, or they just dont educated themselves about this stuff.

Its too complicated. not to say I am some super smart guy, but I have yet to meet a single christian who even finds this topic worth learning about.

[Mythra]

Very good, Tyson. I've read about this discrepancy before. You forgot one response, though. "You're taking those verses out of context".

 

Out of all of those responses, the only one who has any chance of deconverting or beginning to look for the exit door is the last one. "that's in the bible"?

 

Honest critical analysis is the beginning of wisdom.

[Eponymic]

I have given up trying to talk to christians about this, they think its  a boring topic, or they just dont educated themselves about this stuff.

Its too complicated.  not to say I am some super smart guy, but I have yet to meet a single christian who even finds this topic worth learning about.

 

That's what happens when you're too afraid to deal with the truth. And most Christians are experts at averting truth.

[been borg again]

That's what happens when you're too afraid to deal with the truth. And most Christians are experts at averting truth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wrote a letter once to a old church friend of mine, who is a Proffessor at a theological seminary,, PHD, expert on Hebrew, Greek, Old test. and textual criticism, and deeply involved in bible translation organizations and societies. He is one of the few biblical scholars who take the ultra fundy position for Southern Baptist Orgs and such.

 

anyway I once wrote a 10 page letter to him, mostly dealing with the Old Testament, mostly involving trnaslation errors and such, wierd Old Test laws., Gods behaviour in the OLd Test. and so forth,.

I thought he would be interested in communicating since we were friends, even almost married my sister about 15 years ago.

 

Yea he wrote back a few paragraphs telling me that I as a human, have absolulty no right to question Gods Word. If I dont like it, its because I dont understand it.

Who are we to question the Mystery of GOd ( concerning Gods Old Test ament behaviour,)?

 

Sad to say he has never returned my repeated emails over the past ten years, and he cut off all communication with me in the past 10 years. even though I know all his current emails cuz they are posted all over the internet with his research papers.

 

 

I thought this guy, who was a friend in high school, would be at least be interested in the subject matter, but even he, who is considered a biblical expert is AFRAID to expose himself to critical opinion of the bible. when I read his published works, they are all self important opinions on how evil and inaccurate popular bible translations are, how most bible translations pervert the Word of GOd... blah blah blah, anyway he is a total snob now. I see him once every few years at some social event like a wedding and he avoids me at all costs, while he finds fellow fundys to debate about stupid theology like OSAS or baptism.

 

what a pussy jackass.

[Kryten]

. . .

anyway I once wrote a 10 page letter to him, mostly dealing with the Old Testament, mostly involving translation errors and such,  wierd Old Testy laws., Gods behaviour in the OLd Test. and so forth,.

I thought he would be interested in communicating since we were friends, even almost married my sister about 15 years ago.

. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe he's pissed because he DIDN'T marry your sister! If you post photos of her and of the woman (or guy) he's with now (-not that there's anything wrong with that), maybe we can figure out what his REAL problem is...

But seriously you are probably right. When you point out errors and contradictions, you are attacking his entire world-- his faith, his saviour, his eternity, his social life, his ego, and all of his past arguments. No wonder xians react that way. They just about have to.