Confessions Of A Pastor's Kid - It Was Hell!

[Amelia]

Hello Everybody,

 

Wow,what an interesting community this is. I thought I'd sign up and start by sharing my story. As you can tell from the subject, I'm a pastor's kid. Now, I bet there are a few other PK's on this forum, so I'll see if I hear from any. It won't come as any surprise to you all once you read my story that I'm now happily agnostic! That said though, I am completely estranged from my parents, brother and all relatives. Not one wants to know me now.

 

So! Here's my story anyway.

 

We’ll start right at the beginning…

 

To begin, I am the eldest of two children – I have a brother who is nineteen months my junior. My parents are happily married. As a kid, I was really happy and talkative. I was pretty adventurous too – ran away twice at the age of two. By running away, nothing dramatic – just climbing the fence to play in a playground next door, and running away whilst walking with my parents and falling down a hill and fracturing my leg. I limped for a year or so after that, but they couldn’t put plaster on me! The leg’s okay now.

 

So yeah! A happy kid. I did know that I was a very alert baby and very independent as a toddler. I didn’t like being picked up or kissed at all. I just wanted to walk on my own. Also, whenever family members would come over, I’d hide because I didn’t want to be hugged or kissed. I remember hiding from my grandparents!

 

I was a happy kid, but I don’t remember much. I do remember being smacked and belted by my father - the Fundy Pastor. I remember pleading not to be belted, and my mother pleading with my father not to hit me, but I’d still get hit. My grandmother told me just within the last year or so, that when I was about two years old, dad would hit me, but I wouldn’t cry. He went to her and said, “What do I do? I hit my daughter and she won’t cry!!” I was defiant even from that age. He would not let me cry!!

 

Anyhow, I can’t remember much of my childhood, aside from happy and safe feelings. Snuggling up on the lounge watching tv with mum and riding bikes with dad and my brother. I felt so safe at home and happy. It all changed though and I do not know why!

 

How everything changed

 

From age eleven I changed. I became withdrawn completely and was terribly miserable and unhappy. I stayed in my bedroom pretty much and only came out to eat and go to school and church. Church was drummed into us, as my parents are born-again Pentecostals/Fundy-wundies and to not go to church is basically asking for a hell sentence.

 

When I came out of my room when visitors arrived though, I’d ‘fake’ being happy and was quite congenial and friendly. People liked me enough I guess. They thought I was a good kid.

 

The change was really obvious to me, because I used to be happy and rather outgoing all the time, and then I became withdrawn and melancholic. I began to talk back to my parents and my father would hit me or belt me every time I did it. Every time he would hit me, I’d hate him more, and I’d lose respect for myself each time. I remember I became a hypochondriac, and I thought I had every illness. I was petrified of death and would go to the doctor often complaining of ailments! I used to hyperventilate pretty much at night time, and when I’d go to my parents, my father would yell at me to go to bed and make a big angry fuss over it. I remember my father coming into bed with me as well, but I can’t recall at what specific age, and I do not recall anything bad happening. Whilst this was all happening, from about the age of eleven, I became very frightened of going out in public. I would not go into a shop and would pay my brother to buy me the things I wanted with my pocket money. I remember this continuing well into high school.

 

One thing that I really remember is that I was so anxious, I would urinate of an evening every three or so minutes (sometimes every 90 seconds), much to the displeasure of my father who would rant and rave at me for doing this. This went on for a few years. All through high school I could not sleep.

 

From about age eleven right up until I left home, there would be frequent anger felt inside me to my parents. I was not allowed to do anything and had no privileges, and I was hit frequently for talking back. I was not allowed to have friends over because apparently, I’d talk back a lot when I had friends over. At school social functions where parents also attended, I was made to sit with my parents – in high school! I was not allowed to socialise with the other kids at these functions.

 

At about age fifteen, a girl at my school who was friends with me claimed that her father beat her and made her strip, so he could hit her with a cane. This friend was bullemic and was institutionalised a few times, and she told me never to trust my parents and always to keep my door closed at night, in case my father would come in. I remember at this age, becoming totally untrusting of my parents. It was at this age as well that I started becoming over the top in checking power points, locks and windows. I would check every night and count the times I would check. I would also cover my body up excessively and would confess every fear and feeling to my parents. I was so scared of not confessing my feelings and fears – about everything. I felt totally scared most of the time – so scared that I would say confess to every embarrassing fear and feeling. I later found out that my father told other people about these confessions and felt horrible and ashamed.

 

Alienation and the family dynamic

From age eleven, I felt completely alienated. My father was very jealous and told me straight out when I was about thirteen or so not to get too close to my mother because, “she’s my wife before she’s your mother, and I’m not going to lose my wife to you!” I just wanted to hang out with mum – without him – just like mothers and daughters do normally, but dad made a big thing of it, so mum and I never got together.

 

I wanted my mother to divorce my father, who was so controlling particularly with everything religious. Church was mandatory and we could never question it. He even told my mother who to vote for and she’d do as she was told! My mother and brother by the way, are quite submissive. They would do as they were told by him, whereas I was the ‘strong willed child’ who ‘needed’ to be clouted into conforming to my father’s commands.

 

Around the same time as well, my father started saying, “I love you, but I don’t like you”. This is the pastor we're talking about here now.

 

The ‘clouting’ was either with a belt or my father’s hand, and unlike most cases, it continued well beyond say, six years of age. I was belted and slapped right up until I left home – to get married – at age 22. I remember the shame of being belted and slapped as a young woman, and I felt so useless. My father told me if I was to behave like I child, I would be treated like one. Now, I wasn’t a bad kid at all. I was the model student with great grades, and I was never in trouble. I never drank and I didn’t sleep around or take drugs. All I did was talk back – tell my parents to go to hell, call my mother a b*&^c, my father a ba$t$rd, or say I hate you or f^%k off to one of my parents. As a kid I was told children have no rights, and that “all of this human rights stuff that is taught in schools – it is humanist and against the bible!” I was told I would be slapped and belted regardless of my age – as long as I lived under his roof, I would just have to take it.

 

When I hit puberty around 12, I started feeling fearful. I remember fearing that my father and brother would discover my changes – notably in the chest area. I definitely did not want him knowing I was having periods. I would avoid ‘the talk’ from my mother and wear overalls, in an attempt to hide my growing bust. I didn’t want to reveal that I was wearing a bra. I just did not want my father or brother noticing. When I was thirteen, I remember wearing jumpers to school – in the boiling hot summer! I just wanted to cover myself up. I wanted to hide my changes. I started behaving like a tomboy.

 

Scary thoughts and the physical abuse

Around the age of 15, I started having dreams of being raped by my own father. I felt so deeply angry and hurt, for the treatment I endured physically and emotionally, and I started to wonder, “Well he could do anything he wanted with me – he’d belt, slap and emotionally abuse me – so maybe he molested me? After all, I have never been affectionate – I’d never even kissed my own parents and I didn’t like hugging or kissing them or relatives.” I confronted my parents. Result: they were angry at me and basically told me, “Never! How dare you!!!” On many occasions I have felt so uncomfortable, not knowing whether anything did happen, but they always deny. I also found out my father shared my fear that I was molested by him, with my uncle!!!

 

I remember a few years later feeling so tormented by the fear that something horrible had happened in the form of molestation by my father, that he quickly took me into my parents bedroom – just myself and him – and he laid hands on me and prayed in ‘tongues’ for me – this is what Pentecostals/Fundy wundies believe. He was praying for deliverance of the evil thoughts. It was weird…like I was being hidden or something.

 

I was hit even when I was engaged (at age 22) and was told that I wasn’t married yet, so I was under his (i.e. my father’s) control. I would have to cop the slapping and occasional belting.

 

I remember from about the age of 16, whenever my father would go to belt me, my mother would plead with him not to, only to have him scream back at her. “You are MY wife! You are MY wife before you are HER mother, and as MY wife, you will OBEY ME! YOU WILL NOT QUESTION MY AUTHORITY!”

 

And I would be hit.

 

It became worse when my father became a minister in the church too. This was when I was about eleven years old. He was always at me, demanding unconditional respect. “Every time you disrespect me, I will come down on you like a tonne of bricks!!” he would yell at me.

 

He would hit me with a belt, and then I would go to my room and close the door – from about the age of 16 or so mind you. Then he would come into my room, in tears, saying, “I had to do that to you because I love you!”

 

The emotional manipulation and abuse

Dad would always turn the tears on, and I think it was manipulation. I would feel so horrible for talking back to him and for him to then hit me and start crying over how bad I made him felt, that I would write long apology letters. I would always give in. I always felt like the worst person on earth, and I’d do this because I felt so uncomfortable seeing my father frequently crying.

 

Also after he became a minister, he would become enraged if I or my mother ever questioned his authority. Mum never did, but I did. I was strong willed remember – the child that needed to be broken to conform to the bible! Anyhow, I copped it more for disrespecting dad than my brother. My father would say, “I can cop a guy disrespecting me, but I will never, EVER cop a woman disrespecting my authority!” That’s why I’d always get slapped or belted.

 

I clearly remember as a university age student, being chased around the house by my father who was in a rage. I clearly remember being grabbed tightly by the arm, and cornered by my father who was yelling and threatening me. I clearly remember sitting in the backseat of our car when I was about 21 and being slapped across my bare legs by my father – and my brother laughing at me. I remember clearly my father raising his fist at me, saying how much he wanted to “knock me down and flatten me”. I also remember on a number of occasions being home alone, and running from the house, whilst my father in a rage was chasing me, screaming. I feared for my life. I thought I was going to be killed by my own father. These recollections have the greatest impact on me I think. I hated him for this.

 

I was also told by my mother and brother that I was the root of all of the problems and disharmony at home. It was always my fault. After a fight with me, dad would get in the car and drive off like a maniac down the road, and mum would say to me, “If he kills himself in an accident, or anybody else – it’s YOUR fault!” She would also say, “If your father has a stroke, it’s YOUR fault!” My brother always agreed with this too, and used this kind of emotional rubbish with me.

 

 

I felt like nothing – that I was worthless

Due to my father hitting me as a teenager and until the age of 22, I felt like my body was nothing. I felt like my father could just slap me around and it didn’t matter. My father never hit my mother or brother – just me. He would say children deserve clouts (he even slaps other children – he admitted to it), yet women should never be hit. “That’s why I would never hit your mother,” he would say. Yet it was okay for him to slap me around with his hand or a belt – until the day I left home to get married!!!!

 

I remember being in my room, lying on my bed, bawling my eyes out quietly, and thinking dying was the only way out. I remember hating myself.

 

Nobody – not my friends, not my relatives, nobody – knew what I was copping at home. They always said I had the perfect family! How wrong they were!

 

As a result of my treatment with the physical and emotional abuse from my father, I have never had a close relationship with my mother. From age eleven I totally changed and became reclusive. As a result, I didn’t have much fun socially in high school, I never had boyfriends in high school or anything. I never really spoke at high school, even though inside I desperately wanted to be ‘me’. ‘Me’ was talkative and outgoing, but I was hiding. I was acting, so I wouldn’t get into trouble. Even at home, I was hiding, by being a recluse. I dreaded being home alone with dad and getting slapped and belted. I hated being scared.

 

I feel like my whole personality was oppressed in this oppressive household.

 

 

The full realisation of the abuse hits…after I leave

After I married four years ago and moved to a different city, all of these memories and feelings of hopelessness became amplified – they got worse, when I thought they would get better. I began having the nightmares again of trying to fight back with my father. I never mentioned it to them, but every time they came down or we visited them, I felt so uncomfortable and physically ill. My husband would have to be there, or my father would try and control me as if I were five. My father has commented on my appearance too, calling me fat and saying that ‘once upon a time’ I was ‘thin and beautiful’. I tore into him in reaction to this, telling him that he failed me as a father. He then burst into tears and crawled off to his brother’s house, crying about how I had ‘hurt’ him. Then he asked his brother to come over for a barbeque with my husband and I as guests. How humiliating would that have been! I flatly refused and we went out for the evening, then left.

 

Today my father is still controlling. My father screams at me down the phone line that my husband and I are living our lives wrong, because we don’t go to church. He screams that we’ll go to hell and that the end of the world is near and we will all be judged. It is the most depressing stuff!!! Even when we were in church, it wasn’t good enough, because it wasn’t ‘spirit filled’ which basically means, it wasn’t Pentecostal. My father demands to know if we are in church. I have hung up on him because of his screaming.

 

The church my husband and I used to go to (we left church altogether after this experience) was horrible. Everybody totally snubbed me, and they knew that I was new to the city and just chose to ignore me. I have learnt that you do not find friends in churches. And besides....Christian people never liked me anyway. Don't know why!! Maybe because my personality and ability to question and think for myself doesn't wash with them. Hahahaha! Their loss.

 

Invalidation

After that I realised I had to talk to people about my life and what I had been through. I just had to do this! Prior to this, I told my brother, who called me when I was in the middle of a really bad depression. I was in so many tears and very upset. I explained it all to him, and do you know what he said. “It’s all in your mind! I turned out okay, so what are you complaining about? You have nothing to complain about. You just got slapped and belted, but you swore at mum and dad, so you deserved it. Get over it!!”

 

It wasn’t a good experience telling my brother, but this time, after hanging up on my father I needed to talk to people about everything I had experienced. I told my mother in-law and other friends, and I told the whole story. I told them I used to talk back and swear at my parents, and I told them about the punishment. And guess what? I got something I had never ever gotten in my life: validation!! It felt great, but still, the depression would creep up on me every few weeks.

 

I have also felt good telling people I knew when I lived with my parents, about the abuse I received. They never suspected it.

 

Some still do not know, but one who I have lost touch with always said that at university “you did so well and got great grades, yet you had a certain sadness about you that I could not figure out.”

 

So the depression creeps up on me, but I just battled on regardless, and tried to put it all behind me, but the depression would come back and the flashbacks to my life living with my father. Dreams would also be frequent, so I’d relive it all.

 

The final visit and phone call

The last time my husband and I visited them in October this year, I was totally anxious and apprehensive. I felt physically ill, but my husband and I decided to visit just the same. The visit, surprisingly, went well. My brother, was fairly okay. He doesn’t talk much at all. As for my parents, it was okay. Then as we left (it was just a short three hour visit), I said, “Come down for Christmas!” My parents and brother seemed keen and said okay. Then once we arrived back home, I realised something. The whole visit was phoney. My parents just talked about the weather and my business and ‘church’ news. My father was robotically asking me questions about, of all things, how to organise and manage meetings. It was all small talk, because we can’t talk like real people anymore, due to the dysfunction that has been dominant for the last fifteen years. I felt sick to my stomach on the realisation that they could be in our home for Christmas. I did what I always did – I avoided contacting them or picking up the phone. Then one day, about a month ago, I picked up the phone. It was mum asking about Christmas and I told her it was no longer a good idea that they come. The phone call ended shortly after that. I then felt pangs of guilt, and the old phrase they used to shout at me came back, “You’re wrong! You’re the bad child!” I called my mother a week or so later, because I needed to tell her my decision not to have them for Christmas wasn’t ‘just me in a funny mood’. That’s what always happens you see. I cyclically get flashbacks to my teenage years right up until the time I left home, of dad slapping me and belting me around, and I feel hopeless, and totally depressed and useless, and then if they call me (and naturally I don’t want to talk to them), I can’t help but sound depressed, and they go off at me. Usually mum accuses me of being ‘in a funny mood’ and dad just shouts at me that ‘all your problems are because you’re not in church and on your way to hell!!!’

 

So, I called my mother and here’s how the conversation went:

ME: “Mum, the decision wasn’t because I was in a funny or bad mood at all. The reality is that every month or so, I will be hit with a wave of depression and hopelessness over the way dad would slap and belt me. Mum, don’t you realise I was treated like this right up until I got married??? Dad would slap and belt me, and I would be scared and even ran out of the house in fear that he might hurt me! I felt like nothing back then, and I am feeling the pain more now as an adult. It is very real pain and I am so hurt.”

 

MUM: “You just have it in for us and don’t give a rat’s a$$ about us because we were never good enough for you and never rich enough for you. You had a better childhood than I did (her father beat her mother and slapped her around), and I know because I saw you grow up. You have nothing to complain about, so JUST GET OVER IT!!”

 

ME: “Just get over it? Just get over all those years of physical and emotional abuse? As long as you guys continue to invalidate my pain, I can’t continue with this. I wish I could just get over it, but every so often I fall into a pit of depression over all of this, and I feel sick at the thought of contact with you or dad.”

 

MUM: “Okay fine. You always got your way. We let you get married in the city you now live in, and we didn’t stop you, and you’ll have your way again.”

 

ME: “Mum, I was 22 when we got married. I was an adult and quite rightfully, I chose with my husband where we would marry.”

 

MUM: “Fine. You can’t continue with this relationship, then we won’t.”

 

ME: “I think that’s all. Take care and goodbye.”

 

We haven’t spoken since. Not a word. About three weeks later though, I received a very disturbing message on our phone. It was from my father’s father, who said he visited my father and was upset by what he saw. My grandfather, who has always been very proud of me said something along the lines of, “I saw your father today and he is so cut up over this situation. I need to let you know that I am very disappointed with you. They are good people and they do not deserve this. Do you have a problem? If so, I want to hear it. They do not deserve this, as they are good people. I am phoning you now to let you know that I am very disappointed and down about this situation.” I was almost physically sick hearing this. How dare he phone and leave a message like that, when he has no idea what life for me was like growing up in his son’s house!!! I never returned the call. After all, he was in for a fight I believe, just trying to put me in my place, because I’m the ‘kid’ with no idea, and the parents are always right. We no longer allow messages to be left on our phone number, and I do not answer the phone, and nor does my husband. They cannot get through to us. Every message throws me into a depression that lasts several days, and it disrupts everything.

 

As a result of all of this, I am now facing permanent estrangement from not just my parents and brother, but my entire family. My parents no doubt, have told the entire family, as they always do, about how ‘bad’ I am at ‘rejecting’ them. There is no way I can even face any of them to tell my story. I will never tell them my story, because the pain I feel in telling them about my very real pain, is made worse by their stubborn, constant invalidation. To them, I always have been, and always will be wrong. What really hurts me so much are the “Just get over it!” comments. How can I ‘just get over it’? I can’t, because the black dog of depression creeps up on my cyclically now, and I feel useless and teary all over again. I don’t’ even have the motivation to get out of bed when I am like this. But still they deny, saying I was a “bad kid who deserved it” because I “talked back.” To them, I just had it ‘in for them’ because they weren’t ‘rich enough’. All of this is rubbish!!

 

Today I am struggling in the lead up to Christmas. It is like a grief. Like all of them have died. Last weekend, I had trouble getting out of bed due to depression and I cried a lot. I am sick of talking about it to friends and my husband’s family. I just don’t want to depress them. I really don’t feel like I deserve any of this. I was a good kid, and all I did was talk back, because I felt so oppressed because I wasn’t allowed to do anything and had no privileges – even as an adult living under their roof! It hurts me so much and I know they will never validate me. I have decided that I will start seeing a therapist in the new year. I’m not ashamed to admit that I could do with some help. After all, it’s hard! That said though, I have a great life, a great marriage, great friends and I have two very successful businesses! Life is good, but still, I get the black dog creeping up on me.

 

Thanks guys for letting me share my story! I hope to hear from you guys soon!

 

---

Updates on this story - written today (October 2006)

 

I am not in touch with any of my family anymore - not my parents, my brother, nor any of my relatives - not ONE! It's okay though, because my family is toxic.

 

I got an email from the grandparents I mentioned in the above story just after Christmas 2006, demanding to know if I was okay. Well, I was completely sick of their questions, so I told them everything in an email that was about 15 or so pages long. I told them all of it, and got some validation and an apology. I spoke on the phone to them once (before we changed all of our phone numbers - mobiles included) and they were understanding, but I'm not having a relationship with them, because of their closeness to my father (their son) and my mother. They're under the 'spell' of my father, and think he's some kind of religious guru. Last I heard my grandparents were happy to have a 'new granddaughter' - I was the only one until then - who came into the family when my widowed uncle remarried a widowed lady who had a daughter - and better still - a daughter with a BABY! So my grandparents got a new granddaughter and said they were also now great grandparents. I felt great, because they were moving on and had new people in the family to distract them and help them move on from the pain surrounding me.

 

So as you can see, my Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) started when I was around 13 and felt nothing for my parents anymore. I responded to not feeling love or affection for my parents, by protecting the household. Checking locks, doors, electrical powerpoints, etc. And that hasn't left. Now I check locks, windows, doors, powerpoints, etc, etc. I sometimes even take photos of locks and powerpoints with my mobile phone before we go out, so I have photo evidence that everything is off and locked. It is crazy, but I have to laugh about it or I'd just get cranky! LOL.

 

I started seeing my psych in March, and have learnt so much. I understand OCD now, and I am over that hyper sensitivity I had. I'd take on guilt all the time - take everything personally, but not now. Plus my OCD has faded significantly. It was mild in the beginning anyway!

 

So, as for faith and all that...I wouldn't go to a church again. My father hits kids in the church he ministers at, and when the parents object he just throws scripture at them, and they retreat. One kid had down syndrome as well, so how's that for treatment from a pastor? As a kid, he always said I had no rights, and my brother and I were not allowed to sit in on school lessons where they taught sex education or human rights. That was all evil to him.

 

Oh, and when a friend of my suicided when I was 17, I was devastated. As soon as my pastor father saw me crying, he yelled at me, saying that I was pathetic for crying because he sent himself to hell! Oh, and a woman at the church in her sixties, was always crying because of things her dad did to her. My father just invalidated her - telling her to have faith and get over it! What a crock!! I believe her father molested her as a kid, and my father pastor says, "Get over it. Have faith." All BULL^%$&!!!!!! NO COMPASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Did I mention he counsels teenagers as well? In a high school. Kids with abuse issues. Funny, he didn't give a $%^& about his treatment of me! Maybe because I was a girl and didn't obey without question. f^%$ him!!!

 

What a LOAD OF BULL$#%&!!! How the hell am I supposed to view this religion now?? My father is a pastor for goodness sake! And he's still preaching, and probably telling everybody how I've turned on the family and the faith, etc. All lies! He never admits wrong. It was always my fault and I have no rights to him!

 

But, that was the past and I have a great life - without church or christianity now - and a great husband and in-laws. Sure, I am sad that I don't have a biological family or any relatives, but that's because they're all under the 'spell' of my father. I don't need any of 'em!! I'll never set foot in a church again!

 

Thanks for reading this long post!

AJ

 

 

 

Hello again everybody,

 

I forgot to mention my lovely mother telling me when I was about seven something that will always remain with me.

 

Her words: "Don't call me Mummy ever again."

 

I was told I was too old for it. How's that for love?

 

Living with them was like living in a cheap hotel without the service. Definitely no warmth.

 

Cheers,

Amelia Jane

 

Hi again everybody,

 

Please note that the main part of my story above was written by me last year in the lead up to Christmas. The update at the bottom of my first post, I wrote a few weeks ago.

 

I ended the relationship with my family in November 2005, so one year ago.

 

Cheers,

Amelia Jane

[R. S. Martin]

Amelia,

 

Thanks for telling your story. I read every painful word. I'm glad you got out of your family. I'm glad you have a good husband who understands. I'm glad you were strong enough to stand up to your parents. I think many stories are not as bad as mine but yours is. And yes, the worst part is having people saying, "It's not as bad as you think." The invalidation. As though any child would make up this kind of stuff. The fact of the matter is, no one can make up this kind of thing. People who were treated half decent can't imagine it and besides, they could never say such stuff about their own beloved family. Just because your grandparents didn't see the stuff you talk about in no way makes it untrue. Abusive people are smart enough to be careful how they behave around others. I believe your life was every bit as much hell as you say. I don't know what more to say.

[Thackerie]

Hi, Amelia!

 

That was a long story, but I too read every word of it. Thanks for writing.

 

I am sorry you had to go through so much, and I hope life is going much better for you now. We can't choose our relatives, but we can choose our friends, so I hope you have found some good ones that give you the respect and love you deserve.

[Star Stuff]

It's so good to see you standing on your own two feet.

 

Don't focus on the past, focus on the type of person you want to become.

 

You go girl.............

[Warrior_of_god]

Hi Amelia.

 

All I have to say is wow... Its very good that you came out fairly well. That was a painful read and im sure a lot to get off your chest. Its good that youve cut off contact with your family. I could go on about the story but i wont, it speaks for itself. Sounds to me like you are a very strong person.

[Amelia]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks so much for all of your responses! I really, really appreciate you even going the distance and reading my mega long post! It means a lot, so thanks again.

 

Yes, I remember feeling great when I wrote it all down about a year ago, and the positive update about my own healing through counselling and just a positive attitude really felt good too.

 

I look forward to getting to know so many of you through the forums here. Please feel free to contact me directly - just drop me a line - particularly if you can relate or are living with the total separation from family. I know it can be hard, but hey - all of us have the future!

 

I am doing well! I am a professional and I own and operate two businesses! I'm doing amazingly well, so I am very fortunate. I consider myself fortunate. We use situations to become better people. From my tough upbringing, I just became one of those people who seeks to achieve and make a difference. That's what I am doing, and we don't need church or any of that to achieve it. Anybody who thinks that is just full of it!!!

 

Talk soon and thanks again guys!

Amelia

[Guest Mike]

Hi Amelia,

I can only add my voice to the others so far in saying it's awful what your father and your family put you thru. Your movement towards a healthier life and growth is inspiring.

All the best,

Mike

[ShackledNoMore]

Amelia,

 

You had the wherewithal to emerge from a terrible place, and you are an inspiration. As I was reading your post I remembered being told the same thing by my mother, "I love you, but I don't like you." Word for word. It is a tragedy to have been poisoned and abused by your parents like this, but as you have learned, it was not your fault. It's amazing how beneficial a good therapist and a supportive spouse can be. I am also fortunate enough to have a supportive spouse. Welcome to the freedom to enjoy a better life.

[wonderer]

Hi Amelia,

 

Judging from your testimony, life's beaten you up, but you're still on your feet! You exhibited a lot of courage in confronting your family, and I'm sure that with your obvious reserves of strength and persisitence, you will win free of the guilt and pain you are still struggling with.

 

I have a few observations, for what they're worth:

 

Validation. You've confronted your family, spoken the truth, and that's all you can do. Consider that it took you over 20 years to get to the place where you are now, and it may take them just as long to see things clearly.

 

Personal therapy and counseling. The best therapy for ex-fundamentalists is the kind that doesn't attempt to "fix" anything, but rather helps you to find your own answers, and set your own therapeutic tasks. Keep in mind that much of the work of healing takes time, and there's no real way to speed it up. You may feel sometimes that the therapy isn't helping, even though it is.

 

Couples counseling. I don't know if you and your husband are getting counseling as a couple, but I strongly recommend it. Working on these issues together can strengthen your bond, and help him to understand and support your healing process.

 

Distancing yourself from your family. Now that you've shared your feelings with your family, and they have shown that they can't be supportive of the work you are doing to get healed, it may be better to put some distance between yourself and them until you've gained more strength. Focus on yourself, and on the jouney you have set upon - to seek and find that little girl inside you who was outgoing and happy, and reaquaint yourself with peace. Ask your therapist about this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

 

 

Peace,

 

 

Rob

[Amelia]

Hey Guys,

 

Wow, I'm really encouraged by your responses and support. Thanks very much for this guys!

 

Whenever I tried talking about this to Christian people, guess how much support I got from them? Nil!! None!!! I'd hear comments like, "Well, what your father is saying is biblical you know..." They'll try to justify the mistreatment of children - and in my case it went beyond childhood. There's no support to be found in churches, or Christians (generally).

 

Thanks guys!

 

I've actually finished working with the therapist I was working with. I don't feel the need to do any further therapy at the moment, but I will return to counselling if I feel I need to.

 

As for couples counselling, no, I haven't done this with my husband. As a unit, we are very tight and work very well together. We love each other so much, and we're fine. I have just had individual counselling to deal today with things I have had to deal with in the past.

 

Life's good. I'm not a victim. I share my story now to help others.

 

Thanks guys! I look forward to getting to know you all!

 

Cheers,

Amelia

[R. S. Martin]

 

I look forward to getting to know so many of you through the forums here. Please feel free to contact me directly - just drop me a line - particularly if you can relate or are living with the total separation from family. I know it can be hard, but hey - all of us have the future!

 

Okay, I'll tell a bit about me and my family.

 

My separation from my family is not exactly total. It's only as total as I am able to demand. I feel comfortable enough with a few of my sisters to talk on the phone once in a long while. It's never been more than a year between visits to my parents. It's best for me if those visits are short and if there is something to talk about other than me and my life. I'm not a great conversationalist and my mother is terribly curious and great at asking probing questions, so it's quite a challenge.

 

The only way I can get to their place (because I don't drive) is if someone gives me a ride. It's a thirty-minute drive. This means that either they wait in the car while I am in the house for my visit or someone has to take two hours out of their day to make my visit possible. Either way, it's two hours. One objective for moving to my present location was to put a geographical distance between them and myself.

 

I think I mentioned elsewhere that they are horse and buggy Mennonite. This means they have to hire a driver to come visit me. This has been done. I used to have a bigger apartment. Where I am now living there is no room for visitors. Some of my sisters have seen the place so they know I'm not lying. In addition, my parents are getting old and feeble. I don't think my mother gets out of the house anymore except for visits to the doctor.

 

This is where I'm glad I have a LOT of siblings. Most of them live close to Mom and Dad. One of my sisters lives right in with them. If it were up to me to look after them they would have to be in a nursing home. I'm glad there are all the others. Mom is excellent at laying on guilt trips. I know she's well looked after so the only thing she can make me feel guilty for is not visiting as often as she'd like--plus choosing a lifestyle she does not approve of. She knows that if she starts laying guilt trips she won't see me at all.

 

All of this makes me realize something. One of my sisters used to work at a nursing home. She would deplore families who rarely visited. I used to think they must be neglecting their parents. This was when our parents were still able to come and go as they liked. I realize now that if my mother were in a nursing home and depended on me as her only family, I would definitely be one of the neglectful families and the staff would believe her stories. Since my sisters seem to want to retain family ties with me they can't buy it all. I have no way of knowing how much of it goes on behind my back.

 

Ever since that time several months ago when I accidentally told my one sister about not being Christian anymore, relationships with my sisters are not what they used to be. She took such major offense that I have no desire to call her. And she never calls me. Calls with the others were few and far between to begin with. I like it this way.

[Star Stuff]

Most mothers have Black-Belts in guilt.

 

Whenever I tried talking about this to Christian people, guess how much support I got from them? Nil!! None!!! I'd hear comments like, "Well, what your father is saying is biblical you know..."

 

Tell them: "Yes, it may very well be biblical, but the bible is nothing but a hodge-podge of man-made nonsense."

[narcissist]

Hi Amelia. Thanks for sharing. And I'm glad to hear of your post-christian successes. May they continue.

Whenever I tried talking about this to Christian people, guess how much support I got from them? Nil!! None!!! I'd hear comments like, "Well, what your father is saying is biblical you know..." They'll try to justify the mistreatment of children - and in my case it went beyond childhood.

This is a clear demonstration of just how fundamentally and pathologically evil christianity is.

[Amelia]

 

Ever since that time several months ago when I accidentally told my one sister about not being Christian anymore, relationships with my sisters are not what they used to be. She took such major offense that I have no desire to call her. And she never calls me. Calls with the others were few and far between to begin with. I like it this way.

 

Hi again guys,

 

Rita, thanks very much for sharing a little about your situation. I'm sorry to hear about it, but trust you're definitely doing the right thing for yourself.

 

I hate it how Christian family members will just shun you without asking questions. As soon as you tell them you're not a Christian or don't believe what they believe, they either don't want to know you, or they just hound you all the time and make you feel horrible. They'll try and frighten you back to it all. I used to get it all the time from my father...quite abusive down the phone line as well. I used to hang up, because I had a choice of either taking it or not. I chose the latter and I'm happy I did.

 

My parents never called me when I left them to get married either. They were too busy with work, church, etc. Never much interest there at all. It doesn't matter though now. I'm a better person than them, because I'm not blinded by judgemental views. A good friend of mine told me she was gay, and when my father heard about it, he told me in no uncertain terms: "Stop being her friend. Stop talking to her, but before you do, tell her she's sending herself to hell." I guess that's the view of most fundies! Glad I'm not one of them!

 

They need to realise that we all have a choice for goodness sake! We can do whatever we like - we have that power. They chose to become Christians and put their faith in the bible, so be it. They need to exercise the same courtesy to us, otherwise they're no better than those in the world who commit terrible crimes and acts in the name of 'god'. It's intolerance!!

 

Talk soon! Thanks so much guys for all of your feedback!!

 

Cheers,

Amelia

[Fonkey]

Amelia, thanks for sharing your story. I really wish I knew what to say... you did not in any way deserve the treatment you received, and I think you are so incredibly strong for the way you've evidently managed to deal with it. Reading your story just, wow, it broke my heart. I'm glad you're on your feet and I hope you receive the loving relationships you truly deserve.

 

I was wondering if you'd thought of taking any legal action against your father? I know there'd be all sorts of problems involved, but if he's continuing to abuse children in church or at school, I sure hope that gets stopped.

 

Again, thanks so much for sharing, and I hope you continue to lead a happy, rewarding life.

[Amelia]

Amelia, thanks for sharing your story. I really wish I knew what to say... you did not in any way deserve the treatment you received, and I think you are so incredibly strong for the way you've evidently managed to deal with it. Reading your story just, wow, it broke my heart. I'm glad you're on your feet and I hope you receive the loving relationships you truly deserve.

 

I was wondering if you'd thought of taking any legal action against your father? I know there'd be all sorts of problems involved, but if he's continuing to abuse children in church or at school, I sure hope that gets stopped.

 

Again, thanks so much for sharing, and I hope you continue to lead a happy, rewarding life.

 

Hey Fonkey!

 

Thanks very much for your response - great to meet you! In answer to your question about legal action, no, I haven't gone down that path. Obviously because I'm a successful business person, I work very closely with my lawyer on commercial matters, however no, I wouldn't go down the path of seeking civil compensation or anything like that from my father. His behaviour isn't a secret (just the way he treated me was, because I didn't reveal it to anybody in the church or anything like that), and the parents of the one child I know of who did get hit across the legs or whatever it was (I know it wouldn't have been across the head, because my father always told me it was never okay to hit a kid across the head, but everywhere else pretty much was okay - I think it's all wrong though), knew about it. They know that he will smack a kid if he is pissed off and thinks the kid is disrespecting him. It's an ego trip more than anything, but the gullible fundies just take it.

 

As for me now, life is great! Totally emancipating yourself from family to many may just seem too hard, and I know it is at first, but for me, it was the right thing to do. If you get nothing but harrassment and abuse and all that shit, it's worth it to just cut off totally. You don't need shit like that in your life.

 

Thanks so much for your response Fonkey, and I hope to hear from you and others again sometime!

 

Also guys, if anybody here can relate with family shit issues and separation from them, or if you're having a tough time, feel free to PM me.

 

Thanks guys!

Amelia

[R. S. Martin]

 

Hi again guys,

 

Rita, thanks very much for sharing a little about your situation.

 

Hi Amelia, just to draw your attention to it--the name's Ruby, not Rita. Easy to confuse, I know. Both short, both start with R.

[Guest halwes]

Hello, Amelia.

 

Very sorry you endured what was clearly illegal, irrational abuse by your Minister father.

 

Do you live in the UK? I advise that you go public to the authorities about what happened. It does not matter what your father will think. He behaved with cruelty, selfishness and lack of concern for a child's welfare. His Bible backed him up, just as Muslim husbands and fathers torture females based on their Koranic beliefs.

 

Press both criminal and civil charges. Go public !!!! Everyone whom your father comes into contact with (past or present), needs a copy of your letter here. Especially the officials in the church where he preaches (even if they are as bad as he is).

 

(In USA, your Mother would have been arrested as well as your father - because she permitted him to hurt a child).

 

We have Fundy nutcases here in USA - a "Christian nation". Yes, many Bible thumpers came to these shores and spread their sexist and racist cruelty based on scripture.

 

HenryWestin

henry_westin@hotmail.com

[Guest halwes]

While on the topic of domestic cruelty by male Head of Households (egged on by their Christian religion), here is an example of just that.

 

It was penned by some guy who never reveals his true identity, just goes by:

 

noone2u2@yahoo.com

 

 

Some American Christian Jackass who is trying to bring back legalized wife-beating based on the Holy Bible.

 

Here goes - welcome to the 17th century! Enjoy

 

_____________________________________________

 

Re: [submissivewomenforjesus] Domestic Discipline

 

“Until the post-modern era, domestic discipline (also

known as *moderate restraint* and later as *wife

spanking*) only seemed to be a big deal for feminists

and their apologists - who wanted to make it the

centerpiece in an ill-advised and ill-conceived war on

men. Their sworn enemy was patriarchy - the same

male-oriented perspective that dominates the Bible.

 

As fellowships began to disintegrate in the late

twentieth and early twenty-first centuries, several

churches joined politicians in decrying the evils of

manliness in a effort to reinvigorate flagging

membership. Recently, leadership of the faltering

Church of England began worshiping at the feet of the

politically correct feminist religion.

 

In approaching the concept of domestic discipline from

a biblical perspective, it is useful to be more

contextualist than textualist - looking for broader

perspectives rather than focusing on any hidden

meaning within a specific word. It is within the

spirit of that understanding that much of the

following originally appeared under the title “It

Ain’t in the Bible.”

 

With the above in mind, it might be wise to start by

realizing that those much-maligned verses in Proverbs

regarding the discipline and punishment of children

may have been written so that the Ancient Hebrews

would not confine what we euphemistically today call a

spanking to girls. In this regard, the Bible may be

seen as advocating equal discipline for both genders.

 

Moreover, to be a effective punishment, any laying on

of *stripes* - an old-fashioned word referring to the

highly visible streaks left on the skin by forceful

stroke from a strap or switch - had to be more severe

than any pagan coming of age or fertility rituals that

involved striking the female buttocks.

 

Remnants of these old pagan rituals are still with us

today. Although the original meaning has been lost

over the intervening years, *birthday spankings* of

both boys and girls have their origins in

gender-specific fertility rituals. In some

non-Christian sects, women still give girls mild

spankings in coming of age rituals.

 

Peer far enough back in human history and it might be

possible to discover that whipping of the female

buttocks by an oracle or temple priest were the

original fertility clinics. These ancient practices

also gave rise to what is known today as *erotic

spanking*.

 

Difficulties with understanding spanking often arise

because different intensities and durations send

diverse messages - everything from a *job well done*

or *love pat* to “Don’t you ever do that again!”

 

As parents who have raised both genders have

discovered - even in this politically correct age in

which absolute equality is all the rage - it is

possible to use spanking to modify the behavior in

girls long after turning sons over the proverbial

parental knee begins to create more problems than it

solves.

 

In other words, spanking is a continuum in girls.

Practical experience shows that its effectiveness does

not stop merely when a girl becomes a woman.

 

That said, the customary argument against a husband

taking his wife in hand has been that the Bible does

not command men to *beat* their wives. Such a verse

is simply not in the Bible.

 

Unlike the Koran, the Bible does not explicitly

sanctioning domestic chastisement. Notwithstanding,

while woman was taken from the side of man (Genesis

2:21-23), the Bible does put forward why a woman’s

behavior might be reasonably restrained through

corporeal means.

 

The Bible speaks of “wraths, strifes, backbitings,

whisperings, swellings, tumults” as undesirable (II

Corinthians 12:20). It likewise speaks to the dangers

of a “tongue [that] deviseth mischiefs; a sharp rasor,

working deceitfully (Psalms 52:2)” and warns against

those who “have sharpened their tongues like a

serpent; adders’ poison is under their lips (Psalms

140:3).”

 

Anyone who has had occasion to watch the dynamics of

an unhealthy marriage is aware that it all too often

includes the wife’s ridiculing the husband. Likewise,

anyone who has had to deal with a smug and

sharp-tongued woman knows full well the power of its

ability to cut like a knife - even to destroy those

around her in a spew of venomous hate.

 

Meanwhile, as currently constructed, *modern* laws

focus on *physical abuse* while ignoring *verbal

abuse*. Consequently, the old balance - “Women nag

but men spank - has been ignored to the detriment of

society.

 

At the same time, the Bible also says that “The north

wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a

backbiting tongue. It is better to dwell in the corner

of the housetop, than with a brawling woman and in a

wide house (Proverbs 21:9).” In this regard, the

Bible knows that there can be problems and permits men

to express anger over it.

 

In a brief biblical listing of things which “the earth

is disquieted . . . which it cannot bear,” one is an

“odious woman when she is married (Proverbs 30:23).”

Among the synonyms for odious are hateful,

insufferable, evil, unpleasant, nasty - anything but

sweet, pleasant, or delightful to be around.

 

So, the question then arises, how shall a man married

to an odious brawling woman live with her? Shall he

capitulate to matriarchal rule? The problem becomes

more difficult because if he differs with his wife,

his house shall become divided. And the Bible clearly

states that “a house divided against itself cannot

stand [’shall not stand’ or ‘falleth’ ] (Matthew

12:25, et. al.)?”

 

Then, too, the house divided is very much like one of

“a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the

winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and

great was the fall of it (Matthew 7:25).” Only, the

storm created by the odious brawling woman is within

the walls, dividing the house so it will fall.

 

Likewise, the Bible says, “Every wise woman buildeth

her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her

hands (Proverbs 14:1).” Yet, is anyone who has seen a

marriage come apart really going to claim that the

only way for a woman to destroy her house is to

physically dismantle it? Since the result is the same

- a house pulled down or a house that falls down - is

anyone really going to split hairs and say that there

is a difference between the foolish woman who is

wrecking her house or odious woman who is foolishly

dividing her house so it will fall?

 

Regarding to the foolish woman who is wrecking her

house or the odious woman who is foolishly dividing

her house so it will fall, the Bible advises “stripes

for the back of fools (Proverbs 19:29)” and “The

blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes

the inward parts of the belly (Proverbs 20:30).”

Beyond release of endocrines, the latter may explain

why many women report *feeling better* after being

soundly spanked.

 

The above may also offer some understanding as to why

- in the English language - *spanking* can have

multiple meanings. It can mean everything from fresh

and clean, the sound of horse hooves, or a punishment.

 

Although the Bible may not specifically command it,

comes very close to saying that a woman who is

wrecking her house - by whatever means - deserves to

be punished until she is bruised. The

long-established way to punish a wayward woman has

been with stripes - meaning to whip her backside,

where she has ample protection, rather than on her

weaker back (as demanded by literal biblical

interpretation) and were great damage might be done.

 

Spanking is just a more modern echoic word, coined

after the Bible was widely translated into the English

language, describing what can be a punishment

administered to the buttocks (backside) with a

*biblical rod of correction* or suitable proxy - such

as a stick (switch or paddle) or strap.

 

In the end, if a woman wrecking her house gets her

buttocks spanked back and blue, it is not possible for

anyone to say that the Bible expressly forbids it.

 

Nor is it possible to say that the Bible does not

suggest the possibility of lumps and bruises is

preferable to divorce since “they are no more twain,

but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined

together, let not man put asunder (Matthew 19:6 [the

“one flesh” reference appears several times, including

Genesis 2:24]).”

 

Those with firsthand experience are quite familiar

with the power of spanking to created bonding of

parent and child as well as husband and wife. Some

refer to this tendency as *restoring the fellowship*.

 

Furthermore, Jesus said that the only ground for

divorcing a woman was if she committed adultery

(Matthew 5:32). So, anything else is the man’s

responsibility to live with or to change if he cannot

live with it.

 

Parenthetically, it might be worth noting that the

biblical punishment for adultery was death (Leviticus

20:10). After all, an adulterous wife beat with a

stick until she thinks she is going to die might be

considered preferable to being hit with stones until

she dies (John 8:3). If she has children, a good

thrashing is probably the least harmful remedy for all

concerned.

 

Along the same lines, death was also the punishment

for a disobedient child (Deuteronomy 21:21, 22) - the

same unruly child subject to the rod (Proverbs 23:14).

 

By the same token, a man was not immune from

chastisement for contemptible behavior (Deuteronomy

22:18), so that the idea of punishing a woman, even

with a whipping, for similar conduct is not

unthinkable since the Bible is patriarchal text in

which men are considered superior to women.

 

Disciplining is not an afterthought in the Bible.

Exodus 21:20 speaks of “…a man smit[ing] his

servant, or his maid, with a rod….” More

importantly, the chapter also deals with

proportionality in retribution and avoidance of

excess. References to the judicial flogging of *men*

in Deuteronomy may be in fact gender neutral.

 

It is possible that the references to possible stoning

for egregious behavior existed to put things in

perspective for those who thought whipping too severe

a punishment for a recalcitrant youth or a badly

behaved woman. After all, as the Bible says,

“Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; But

the rod of correction shall drive it far from him

(Proverbs 22:15).”

 

More interestingly, Paul - who by his own admission

was whipped on five separate occasions for a combined

total of 195 lashes (II Corinthians 11:24) - did not

condemn the brutality of judicial flogging in his

writings! Instead, writes that “no chastening for the

present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous:

nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit

of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

(Hebrews 12:11).”

 

Paul also spoke well of: “One that ruleth well his own

house, having his children in subjection with all

gravity (I Timothy 3:4).” The Bible says of men

recommended for church office, “so must their wives be

grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things

(I Timothy 3:11).” .

 

So, how does a parent have “his children in subjection

with all gravity?” The Bible advises “Foolishness is

bound up in the heart of a child; But the rod of

correction shall drive it far from him (Proverbs

22:15).” It is reasonable to assume that, given the

expectations place on the Christian family patriarch,

the same cure would work for the child’s mother if she

is not appropriately *serious* about her

responsibilities.

 

In the Christian tradition, it is understood that

parents are to “withhold not correction from the

child: for if thou beat him with the rod, he shall not

die (Proverbs 23:14).” and “let not thy soul spare for

his crying (Proverbs 19:18).”

 

The use of the rod on a child is considered an act of

love (Proverbs 13:24). The Bible also commands The

Bible also says, “The rod and reproof give wisdom: but

a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame

(Proverbs 29:15).” How much more tragic if a woman

is allowed to bring shame on herself by destroying her

family.

 

Thus, if a child can be *beat with a rod* hard enough

to make the parent wonder if he is going to die, so

that he won’t bring his mother shame, it stands to

reason that the woman should not be allowed to bring

shame upon herself by employing the same remedy.

 

The Bible says that correcting a child will also give

the parent peace of mind (Proverbs 29:17), which is

very close to the antithesis of calumny visited on a

house by an unrestrained odious woman. Conversely,

the Bible also speaks of “holy women…being in

subjection unto their own husbands….(I Peter 3:5).”

It advises, “Obey them that have the rule over you,

and submit yourselves….(Hebrews 13:17).”

Specifically it admonishes, “ye wives, be in

subjection to your own husbands…(I Peter 3:1).”

 

The Bible also promises women, “thy desire shall be to

thy husband, and he shall rule over thee (Genesis

3:16).” Now, to rule is to have power over; to be *in

subjection to* is to be powerless in the presence of

the powerful; and to submit is to surrender.

 

While the Bible cautions “Husbands [to] love your

wives (Ephesians 5:25),” it also says a verse earlier

that “the husband is the head of the wife, even as

Christ is the head of the church …as the church is

subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own

husbands in every thing (Ephesians 5:24).” Would not

*everything* include *surrendering* to even a very

unpleasant spanking if the husband thought it

necessary?

 

Several years ago, in discussing domestic discipline,

a Christian wife matter-of-factly said that she held

her children accountable for their behavior -

sometimes with a good hard spanking if she felt they

should have known better. At the same time, she

stated that - as a grown woman - she should know more

than her children about how to behave. Hence, she had

absolutely no problem with her husband taking her in

hand when she failed to conduct herself properly.

 

Why the Bible does not mention correcting a wife with

rod can be understood from the perspective that the

Bible is a patriarchal book - in it, men rule. It

does not have to be shouted from the rooftops to be

understood.

 

Not unlike the assumption that there is a God - which

the Bible makes absolutely no attempt to prove - it

was implicitly understood that a man would take rod to

a woman when necessary since there is nothing

expressly forbidding it.

 

The biblical attitude toward women is very much in

keeping with what Paul’s decree that “women keep

silence in the churches…they are commanded to be

under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they

will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at

home . . . (I Corinthians 14:34-35).”

 

Thus, while there are circuitous references to

whipping women - that seem awkward in late twentieth

and early twenty-first century America with women in

public life, the event was sufficiently common that a

patriarchal society did not made a big deal out of it.

 

More importantly, however, is the fact that it is

impossible to construct a reverse argument- that a man

should never take a woman in hand and correct her

behavior - from the received text.

 

The biblical perspective on domestic discipline is

very much like that on having children. In Genesis

1:28, God tell man: “Be fruitful, and multiply and

replenish the earth….” He does not say exactly how

to do it.

 

There is no Eleventh Commandments to copulate.

Although there is titillation in the Song of Solomon,

there certainly is not any guide to sex contained

within scriptures.

 

Likewise, there are no specifics on how to rule one’s

house. Some things are simply left to man to figure

out with the brain that God gave to him!

 

The same verse in Genesis also commands mankind to:

“ubdue it [the earth]: and have dominion over the

fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and

over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”

 

Now, for a moment, imagine how silly it would be if

God had said, “Okay, Adam, I’ve given you permission

to have authority over all the creatures of this

world. In time I will also command you to keep your

children on the straight and narrow. But, when it

comes to that woman I gave you, don’t you dare lay a

hand on her - no matter how badly she behaves! Let

her have her way.”

 

Rather obviously, the fictitious quote in the above

paragraph is a recipe for domestic disaster.

Tragically, however, it sums up the situation in many

homes. It is a fact that is not lost on children -

even in homes were where yelling and divorce are not

the norm.

 

When my future wife was to her room to pray about her

errant childhood behavior - often without being

punished - one of the things she came to realize as

she sat cloistered in her meditations with God was

that there were simply those times when badly behaved

a girl needed to be soundly spanked on her bare

bottom.

 

As my future wife got older, she realized that

spanking was not just for little girls. To interpret

Ecclesiastes 1:14, it is a sometimes necessary

vexation to curb vanity - a proper shaming when

“pride” becomes insufferable (Proverb 11:2). Thus,

began her quest for a husband unafraid to take her in

hand.

 

Other women have made the same discovery as my future

wife. How they react to the realization determines

their attitude toward domestic discipline.

 

Conflict arises because - in terms of procedure and

outcome - there really is not much difference in

spanking a smart-mouthed teenager or her shrew-tongued

mother. At any age, getting a spanking is usually

embarrassing and it almost always hurts; but it also

improves attitudes if continued long enough to reach a

woman’s mind.

 

And, that is probably the most poorly understood

aspect of domestic discipline. Spanking is about

cleaning out guilt and other emotional baggage rather

than merely reddening the buttocks and causing pain -

which is a pointless exercise.

 

Beyond biblical justifications, there may be a

biological impetus in the interaction of the genes.

That is why secular *disciplinary virgins* have

discovered *domestic discipline* on their own when

their marriages get into trouble.

 

The discovery seems to happen frequently in second

marriages when first marriages were rife with

bickering and bitterness. Women usually know what

needs to be done long before the husband makes the

discovery.

 

The above should be considered in light that the

Ancient Hebrews did not originate corporal punishment.

It was probably an established practice long before

Abraham and certainly before Solomon.

 

Moreover, the above serves to explain the fallacy that

merely blue-penciling a few verses in Proverbs - or

even banning the whole Bible - will not cause domestic

discipline to disappear from the earth. It is one of

those things that humans have done and will continue

to do despite massive attempts at reeducation.

 

Finally, despite her conservative Christian

upbringing, my college-educated mother-in-law - who

her children acknowledge to be an embodiment of the

virtues described in Proverbs 31 - was long an

outspoken critic of spanking. This was especially

true after girls reached *a certain age* - as she

euphemistically referred to puberty.

 

It took my mother-in-law several decades to realize

that her daughter searched for a husband willing to

take her in hand and straighten her out when she

needed it. At first, my mother-in-law found it hard

to believe before realizing her daughter’s marriage

was rock solid.

 

Then, after she watched a few nieces, nephews, and

children go through agonizing divorces, she

begrudgingly admitted that she would rather *a

daughter* be soundly spanked than see her go through

the heart wrenching agony of divorce.”

[Amelia]

 

Hi again guys,

 

Rita, thanks very much for sharing a little about your situation.

 

Hi Amelia, just to draw your attention to it--the name's Ruby, not Rita. Easy to confuse, I know. Both short, both start with R.

 

Hi Ruby!

 

Ooops! My mistake for calling you Rita! Sorry about that!

 

Talk soon!

Amelia

 

Do you live in the UK? I advise that you go public to the authorities about what happened. It does not matter what your father will think. He behaved with cruelty, selfishness and lack of concern for a child's welfare. His Bible backed him up, just as Muslim husbands and fathers torture females based on their Koranic beliefs.

 

Press both criminal and civil charges. Go public !!!! Everyone whom your father comes into contact with (past or present), needs a copy of your letter here. Especially the officials in the church where he preaches (even if they are as bad as he is).

 

(In USA, your Mother would have been arrested as well as your father - because she permitted him to hurt a child).

 

We have Fundy nutcases here in USA - a "Christian nation". Yes, many Bible thumpers came to these shores and spread their sexist and racist cruelty based on scripture.

 

HenryWestin

henry_westin@hotmail.com

 

Hey Henry,

 

Thanks very much for your response and your thoughts. No, I'm in Australia. Personally, after the experience depleted me of my energy and confidence, and denied me way too much freedom, I just couldn't be bothered with them. I've broken off my relationship with them now permanently, and I know that's the worst punishment I could dish out to them (not that me breaking off with them is my way of punishing THEM - it's all about ME - this is the best thing for me, because I just don't need their shit in my life). As for their church, pppppppppft - I couldn't be bothered again. I don't want their invalidation. It was painful enough just from my parents, so forget that. My life is good now without them and without church and all that shit.

 

I hate the fundy movement. I hate what it does to people! It's a cult, pure and simple. They'd rather do all their, "roll around on the floor shit" and "babbling mumbo jumbo tongues shit" and sing pointless songs on a Sunday, then be real people treating their families with the importance and priority they deserve. %$^& em!

 

I can't believe that complete tool who wrote that shit about beating women and kids. What an ass! It's all bullshit.

 

Talk soon!

Amelia

[Guest halwes]

Amelia,

 

Glad you are free from a destructive lifestyle. It is your decision whether to bring charges against your father. However (I don't know this), if he has access to any children at this point, and you feel he could harm them, please call police.

 

As for the goon "noone2u2", I have e-mailed him several times, asking why he isn't man enough to give his real name. After all, he is Christian. If he believes that Jesus wants men to beat wives' bare buttocks with belts, then that is an important part of Jesus' Gospel.

 

The Sacrament of Butt-Beating. If it was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for all good men to come forward and shout it from the rooftops. Every Preacher, every Deacon, every Priest, should get up there on Sunday morning and promote butt-beating of wives.

 

Noone, as always, hides in the dark closet of a coward's anonymity.

 

henry_westin@hotmail.com

[Amelia]

Amelia,

 

Glad you are free from a destructive lifestyle. It is your decision whether to bring charges against your father. However (I don't know this), if he has access to any children at this point, and you feel he could harm them, please call police.

 

As for the goon "noone2u2", I have e-mailed him several times, asking why he isn't man enough to give his real name. After all, he is Christian. If he believes that Jesus wants men to beat wives' bare buttocks with belts, then that is an important part of Jesus' Gospel.

 

The Sacrament of Butt-Beating. If it was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for all good men to come forward and shout it from the rooftops. Every Preacher, every Deacon, every Priest, should get up there on Sunday morning and promote butt-beating of wives.

 

Noone, as always, hides in the dark closet of a coward's anonymity.

 

henry_westin@hotmail.com

 

Hi Henry,

 

Honestly, I don't know what my father does in terms of his pastoral care ministry now, so it's not my concern at all. I do not have any proof at all that he is doing anything, so I can't just call the police and say, "Oh, this guy MIGHT be doing something, but I have no proof." I don't have a clue at all, and frankly, don't want to be in touch with any of them.

 

I only heard of one case where he smacked a kid at church in front of other people and everybody - including the kid's parents - knew about it, so it wasn't hidden. It was out there for all to see. The fundies I know from that place would hit their own kids in full view of the people in the church, so there definitely wasn't anything hidden. I just wasn't around when all of this happened. One thing I know though, and others agree, is that the fundy way is over the top in all aspects. It's like they rate the competence of a parent, based upon how hard or how frequently they hit a kid. As a child I remember seeing fathers at church smacking their kids hard. It's disgusting really.

 

I went to a private Christian school in high school, and they still cane kids there. The parents sign a consent form saying, "Hit my kids if they deserve it" pretty much. It's pathetic and totally against the law, but these fundies and the like just go along with it.

 

I'm just glad I am out of all that, and as an adult I never accepted it anyway. So, I haven't really ever been one of them. It's a circus really.

 

Also, I'm not surprised about that tool totally ignoring your emails. He's just a lame ass who gets off on hitting women in my view. Again as I mentioned, with these fundy men, it's a power trip all the way. Yes, they get off on it.

 

Cheers,

Amelia

[R. S. Martin]

Was the guy actually promoting spanking?

 

I stopped reading three-quarter ways through. It was sickening. I thought he was out to prove that it's wrong.

 

It should be illegal to write that kind of stuff!

[Amelia]

Hi Ruby,

 

It seemed that he was from what I saw. He's a complete tool anyway as far as I'm concerned.

 

He's totally wrong and completely ignorant.

 

I hate how tools like that load up all their writing with scripture. Don't these tools know how boring they sound??

 

Cheers,

Amelia

[Fonkey]

While religious fundamentalism may not be leaving anytime soon, I at least take comfort in the fact that we can outlaw spouse and child abuse.