Isaiah 13...christians Are You Up For It?

[chefranden]

The misunderstanding of the Bible here is rampant. You just can't unravel this level of confusion.

 

I don't know, as an ex-minister/amateur bible scholar, I find that most of the Ex-Christians I know here know the bible better than most Christians I know. You may know more than most here bible wise, but I doubt you understand it better. Considering the myriads of Christian understandings many of them quite in conflict with others even to the point of war, I doubt your understanding is particularly better than any one else's.

 

Of course you won't agree for you, as all Christians of any brand, are a TrueChristian™. Isn't that so? I've never met a Christian who's understanding of the bible wasn't the best understanding. I have met some Christians who's understanding used to be sub-par, but in the present it never is. Given your generally snotty attitude, I suspect you are of the same mindset.

 

Therefore your implication that you understand the Bible, carries little weight.

[Jubilant]

Inspecto... Um, just curious...you use the "you can't understand the bible" as an excuse reason for not explaining Isaiah 13 but Here you have accepted a debate challenge using the bible. You also excusedreasoned away not bothering with Isaiah 13 because in your words:

BTW- For me to try and explain the Bible to you, when the Bible itself declares that you cannot understand it would show that I didn't believe the Bible. And to think, after all these years, the Bible is always true. Your misunderstanding is a testimony to the truth of the Bible.

 

Seems to me like you're speaking out your ass and the reason you aren't bothering with Isaiah 13 is because it cannot be explained away. Either way, you are a liar and a hypocrite, proven by YOUR inconsistencies on these boards. If trying to explain the bible to a bunch of unbelievers is fruitless and shows that you somehow would be shown as "not believing the bible" before God then...why are you here? Your "fruits" of the Spirit aren't even showing up in any of your posts so what are you here for if debating unbelievers using the bible is fruitless and you've witnessed but no one cares to be witnessed too?

[Lycorth]

I would say that there is a ton of confusion. It's rampant here. Your misunderstanding of the Bible doesn't condtitute an error, it simply illustrates your misunderstanding.

 

I think your misunderstanding and confusion is much deeper than I or anyone else could fix.

 

The fact that you misunderstand the Bible shows that it is true. In fact, the Bible declares that you will not understand it. Showing once again that the Bible is true.

 

BTW- For me to try and explain the Bible to you, when the Bible itself declares that you cannot understand it would show that I didn't believe the Bible. And to think, after all these years, the Bible is always true. Your misunderstanding is a testimony to the truth of the Bible.

 

Yes, behold the typical fluffy-bunny fundy-Xian response. A critic of the Babble lists several examples from the actual text which underscore serious problems with the Babble, and the fluffy Xian goes "la la la, you don't understand like I do and that proves the Babble is true, la la la."

 

Note also how he doesn't bother to explain how we all "misunderstand" but rather just accuses us of misunderstanding and tries to claim that our confusion somehow validates the Babble - all without citing a word of Scripchah or trying to make an argument of any kind.

 

Jebus Christ on a stick, these Xians crack me up sometimes

[InspectoGeneral]

May I respectfully ask that we stick with Isaiah 13 in this thread an perhaps start another one for other contradictions?

 

Inspecto...I would like for you to tell me how it is that the chapter in question is being misunderstood.

 

You must have missed my earlier post. You can't understand the Bible. The Bible says that you can't understand it. The problem isn't with the Bible, it is with you. The fact that you don't understand the Bible, proves that it is true.

[InspectoGeneral]

May I respectfully ask that we stick with Isaiah 13 in this thread an perhaps start another one for other contradictions?

 

Inspecto...I would like for you to tell me how it is that the chapter in question is being misunderstood.

 

You must have missed my earlier post. You can't understand the Bible. The Bible says that you can't understand it. The problem isn't with the Bible, it is with you. The fact that you don't understand the Bible, proves that it is true.

 

 

"Do you claim to know what the verses Jubilant Posted means, and in answering this question I mean does it read something other then what it says,"

 

Yes I do know what they mean.

[Guest Gooneybird]

Here is a poem I wrote. It's full of excellent words and truth. It is all true, but you won't understand it. That this is so proves that it is true.

 

Grandma's Pipulous Weenerfied Gapulous Willus

 

The yano of my poonis is peened out to the max.

It's deadly and boobular and choculous, like Rollins with an axe.

My buttnards are booled and groidal.

My biznalls are chaffed and raw.

A globular cluster is on my luster...

At least that's what Kaler saw.

 

The Bailey-Bo-Baler's peening.

The peener's without a dime.

The scrooby BeGillus is scroobing.

In forty two and three quarters time.

 

But what of Wang and his weenis?

What of the woody-fied fish?

What's become of my Grandma...

and her pipulous weenerfied gapulous willus?

 

Did Rollins bash her head in, with an '84 Buick 'lark?

Did Wang unleash his nano-peener, while she banised in the dark?

Maybe she's gone to that big Steak 'n Shake up in the sky.

Maybe she's dining now with Henry,

and eating a tasty Beano pie.

 

Gooneybird

[InspectoGeneral]

Gooney-

 

Maybe you should have registered as "Mocking-bird"?

[roman]

Gooney-

 

Maybe you should have registered as "Mocking-bird"?

I understand the bible, ig. I understand you, too. There's really not much to either of you. The only thing I don't understand is why people on this board talk to you. You are the type of person who in the real world is beneath my notice...just another low-class, foul, uneducated, local pew-jumper. The internet gives you a voice and a venue, so you can "thank god" for that. In my world, my actual (not virtual) world, you would be just another slug to avoid. I would hold my breath when you passed by, so I wouldn't have to smell you. In fact, I'm feeling slimy just from reading your posts, so I won't do that anymore.

 

Have a nice day, m-kay?

 

P.S.

There is no way you will ever understand this post. You're just not smart enough. The ex-christians, of course, will understand it instantly.

[Guest Gooneybird]

Would you reprimand a gorilla for being a poor calculus student?

[roman]

Would you reprimand a gorilla for being a poor calculus student?

Non-sequitur.

[Jun]

I'm actually starting to think that this IG guy needs a psychiatrist.

 

Not a single thing that has been posted by him makes for a presentable argumant at all - it's all just jibberish. It's empty and not logical at all................oh, that's right xtian stuff is supposed to be isn't it.

 

You can't understand the Bible. The Bible says that you can't understand it. The problem isn't with the Bible, it is with you. The fact that you don't understand the Bible, proves that it is true.

 

IG, put some thought into what I'm about to say - really, I want you to concentrate hard - and answer my question directly, concisely and without the jibberish.

 

Here is my question - ready, now concentrate -

 

WHERE IN THE "HOLY BIBLE" DOES IT STATE THAT THE BIBLE ITSELF CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD? WHICH CHAPTER AND VERSE?

 

I made it bold and coloured it red so that you wouldn't miss it, now can you point it out to us?

I don't have a bible (why would I?), but I cannot find any mention in any online versions, including the KJ, that states anything of the sort. Am I missing it? Where is it? Who wrote it?

 

Again, it sounds too much like any other religious dribble - "you can't understand it if you don't believe it" isn't that how it goes?

 

This kind of brainwashing does work on some, you are a prime example.

[Kuroikaze]

 

You must have missed my earlier post. You can't understand the Bible. The Bible says that you can't understand it. The problem isn't with the Bible, it is with you. The fact that you don't understand the Bible, proves that it is true.

 

 

this is one of the most convoluted and absolutely bat shit crazy pieces of non-logic I have ever made the mistake of reading, I think I'm actually dumber for having read this.

 

Seriously do you even read what you write? How exactly does people doubting that something is true make it more likely to be true?

 

If I made this claim about any thing else you would claim I was nuts, Hey since you believe Hinduism to be false then it must be true by your logic.

 

You do realize that logically the number of people who believe or disbelieve in something has no bearing on its truth or falsity, it is a clear logical fallacy to claim otherwise.

[Jubilant]

May I respectfully ask that we stick with Isaiah 13 in this thread an perhaps start another one for other contradictions?

 

Inspecto...I would like for you to tell me how it is that the chapter in question is being misunderstood.

 

You must have missed my earlier post. You can't understand the Bible. The Bible says that you can't understand it. The problem isn't with the Bible, it is with you. The fact that you don't understand the Bible, proves that it is true.

 

Then WHY are you going to debate here at ExC using the Bible? Oh, and I do understand the bible all to well...it happens to be why after 30+ years that I am no longer a Christian.

 

You are using excuses because that scripture means exactly what it says it means and you have nothing to counter it. Now, go outside and play with your dragons and satyrs, while we adults find another True Christian™ to answer questions about Isaiah 13.

[riverbank]

LMAO!! IG is at it again. Please explain the contradictions in the bible that Jun clearly pointed out to you, rather than saying that we don't understand the bible and that makes it true.

 

I would have thought that a christian would have at least made some effort to explain these contradictions, rather than taking the easy way out.

 

Back on topic, you're saying that Isaiah 13 is being misunderstood. What? The verse says Behold, the day of the Lord IS COMING. The "day of the Lord" hasn't happened yet, has it? So surely the rest of this passage must be relevant.

 

Or do you believe that the "day of the Lord" is going to be a time of great rejoicing and that all the things that Jubilant has pointed out is a load of complete bullshit?

[Japedo]

 

 

"Do you claim to know what the verses Jubilant Posted means, and in answering this question I mean does it read something other then what it says,"

 

Yes I do know what they mean.

 

 

 

 

I know what they mean too. I swear to your god on your eternal soul I do.

[Trancelation]

Understanding what's going on here is all too easy.

 

IG says that non-Christians cannot understand the Bible. Am I correct? Does anyone have any qaulms (sp?) with this statement? If you do, please correct me. Until then, I'll move ahead. Not only does IG say a non-Christians cannot understand the Bible, IG says that the Bible itself says this. In this way, the Bible is proven to be entirely true from start to finish. We should believe the Bible, then, because if one part of the Bible is true, the entire Bible is true, even though we cannot understand it, and in not being able to understand, we have no way to understand that the Bible is true. Even though we cannot understand it, we must accept that it is true, and by accepting that it is true, we do not understand that understanding truth in the Bible is true.

 

This reminds me of a story I read once about a girl named Sally. One day Sally was approached by a Christian missionary. The missionary asked Sally if she knew right from wrong. Sally, of course, said yes. The missionary, however, disagreed. Naturally, Sally inquired as to how the missionary knew this.

 

"Well," he said, "without God, man does not have the capacity with which to understand good and evil. Atheists do not understand good and evil because they do not have God. Only by accepting God can one come to understand what is truly good."

 

Sally was perplexed by a flaw in the missionary's argument. "But Mr. missionary, sir," she responded, "if I can't understand good without God, then how can I know that God is good if I have to make a personal judgment that what God is saying is good?"

 

So . . . the sequence of events is:

 

1. Man does not know good.

 

2. Man cannot know good without God.

 

3. Man must make a choice that God is good, even though man cannot know good.

 

The same thing is happening here.

 

1. Non-Christians cannot understand the Bible.

 

2. Only Christians can understand the Bible.

 

3. Non-Christians can understand the Bible if they become Christian, even though the Bible determines what is Christian, which non-Christians cannot understand.

 

Heh. Considering that, my question concerning when one knows if they are a Christian takes on a whole 'nother level, because nobody is BORN Christian. By the very polemics of Christianity as stated by the Bible, one must make a choice to become Christian. Since they cannot understand the Bible, how can they ever know if they are Christian?

 

So I think the message here is very clear: all praise is be due Inspecto General-lah.

[InspectoGeneral]

"Heh. Considering that, my question concerning when one knows if they are a Christian takes on a whole 'nother level, because nobody is BORN Christian. By the very polemics of Christianity as stated by the Bible, one must make a choice to become Christian. Since they cannot understand the Bible, how can they ever know if they are Christian?"

 

 

I did not way that 'people' could not understand the Bible. I did not say that non-Christians could not understand some parts of the Bible. What I said was, that YOU could not understand the Bible. Those who scorn the Bible are confounded by it.

 

LMAO!! IG is at it again. Please explain the contradictions in the bible that Jun clearly pointed out to you, rather than saying that we don't understand the bible and that makes it true.

 

I would have thought that a christian would have at least made some effort to explain these contradictions, rather than taking the easy way out.

 

Back on topic, you're saying that Isaiah 13 is being misunderstood. What? The verse says Behold, the day of the Lord IS COMING. The "day of the Lord" hasn't happened yet, has it? So surely the rest of this passage must be relevant.

 

 

Made an effort to explain it? If anyone here was sincerely interested in an explanation, then an explanation would be in order.

[Kuroikaze]

 

I did not way that 'people' could not understand the Bible. I did not say that non-Christians could not understand some parts of the Bible. What I said was, that YOU could not understand the Bible. Those who scorn the Bible are confounded by it.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but this doesn't add up, as I have not always "scorned" the bible. I used to be a christian and a hard core apologist. I studied these passages and came up with all sorts of defense for them, but in the back of my mind I realized that most of my explanations were hollow and didn't really deal with the problems.

 

So I prayed.....god how I prayed, that He would give me an answer to these things....you see, even when I wasn't scorning the bible...even when I was desperate to find an answer that would allow me to hold on to biblical infallibility, the bible STILL didn't make any sense, other wise I wouldn't have become a "scorner" as you so eloquently put it.

 

So sorry, this line of thinking simply shows how ignorant you are of who we really are.

 

 

Made an effort to explain it? If anyone here was sincerely interested in an explanation, then an explanation would be in order.

 

of course we would be interisted, however, remember that I have heard ALL of the common christian explanations for this error and found the explanations were lacking....So unless you have a better explanation than any that mainstream christianity has offered in the last 1800 years then your explanation will not be believed.

[roman]

ig said "Made an effort to explain it? If anyone here was sincerely interested in an explanation, then an explanation would be in order."

 

YOU can explain something? I hardly think so.

[white_raven23]

 

I'm in a different time zone, so I'm guessing here. But I think it was 5:00PM for our friend IG here when he made this post.

 

I guess he doesn't have much in the way of a family, as he'd rather make posts to an ex-christian website instead of spending roughly "dinnertime" with his family on a SUNDAY afternoon. I suppose he could be whaking it to football too...my old minister would actually tighten up his sermons just so folks could get home to watch the game.

 

Either way....how pathetic a christian warriah do you have to be to hang out with US on Sunday?

[chefranden]

WHERE IN THE "HOLY BIBLE" DOES IT STATE THAT THE BIBLE ITSELF CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD? WHICH CHAPTER AND VERSE?

 

Eph. 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; 19 who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

[Jun]

WHERE IN THE "HOLY BIBLE" DOES IT STATE THAT THE BIBLE ITSELF CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD? WHICH CHAPTER AND VERSE?

 

Eph. 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; 19 who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

 

Thank you very much. I was kinda hoping that IG would point it out though. It took an Ex-Christian to point out something in bible scripture that a believer couldn't.

[Trancelation]

The fact that you misunderstand the Bible shoes that it is true. In fact, the Bible declares that you will not understand it. Showing once again that the Bible is true.

And whom, pray tell, is the "you" that this exact verse is talking about? Those who scorn the Bible, perhaps?

 

Hmm . . .

 

So, would that be all those CHRISTIANS that scorn the Bible?

 

 

I did not way that 'people' could not understand the Bible. I did not say that non-Christians could not understand some parts of the Bible. What I said was, that YOU could not understand the Bible. Those who scorn the Bible are confounded by it.

Ahh. My mistake. I was unaware that I was the only person in existence that scorned the Bible, and therefore misunderstand it. Still, I am quite impressed that the Bible mentions me by name, expressly for stating that I do not understand it. Would you care to post the verse that says that I, specifically, will not undertstand it?

 

Or will I be unable to understand what it is "waying," to use your own terms? Maybe you do not understand what the Bible is "waying" in this verse you speak so highly of, if you cannot find it. And if the Bible says those who scorn it cannot understand it . . . then who else is it speaking of, if not for non-Christians?

 

Yes, IG, you did say that non-Christians cannot understand the Bible. That only leaves the mystery of whether or not the Bible says that. We have your words to show the claims you made (that non-Christians cannot understand the Bible), so please, show us where the Bible makes these claims . . . or will it confuse all those Christians that scorn the Bible, as well?

 

[Trancelation]

Eph. 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; 19 who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

 

. . . ehhh, I dunno. This verse does not explicitly say that the BIBLE cannot be understood. After all, the Bible had not been written yet. Nor does this verse explicitly say that Christians that scorn the Bible cannot understand it. After all, IG wasn't talking about non-Christians that scorn the Bible and cannot understand it.

 

 

Man, oh, man, the things that guy will say to not have to admit he was wrong. Priceless.

 

I still want to see this supposed verse from him. After all, we're talking about a verse that says that those who scorn the Bible - which had not been written at the time the writings that make up the Bible were collected - cannot understand the Bible. This verse is NOT talking about non-Christians, if we are to believe IG. Until he supplies this verse as dictated by his exclusive understanding of the Bible, nothing will suffice.

[IAm_Lucifer]

I would say that there is a ton of confusion. It's rampant here. Your misunderstanding of the Bible doesn't condtitute an error, it simply illustrates your misunderstanding.

 

Can you please give an example of our confusion?