riverbank Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Okay, well let's pretend for a moment that the gospel is all true and that most people are going to hell. If most people are going to hell, then who is going to heaven? A Christian might say "Someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour". The general belief amongst Christians is that anyone who has 'accepted Jesus into their heart' will be on their way to heaven. But is that what the bible says? Let us look at Matthew 7:21-23 - Not all who talk like godly people are godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord' but still won't get to heaven. For the decisive question is whether they obey my Father, in heaven. At the judgment many will tell me 'Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.' But I will reply 'You have never been mine. Go away for your deeds are evil. This is one passage of scripture I bet you never heard in church! The only logical conclusion one can make from this saying of Jesus is that it refers to people who consider themselves Christians. Keith Green was one of the few Christians who questioned that Christians were saved 'just by making a confession of salvation'. I think he believed that quite a number of 'Christians' weren't truly 'saved'. In one of his books he said that the word 'believe' when it infers to believing on Jesus meant something like 'total dependence', and letting Jesus be in control. But it's been a while since I read that book so I can't quite remember. Re Matthew 7:21-23, I wonder how many 'Christians' would fall foul of this. Jesus even says that people who told others about him would be condemned! Nice, merciful Jesus!! I would be interested in what any Christian has to say about the points I've raised. For the ex-christians, did you used to think that salvation was a simple matter of believing and confessing Jesus into your heart? If you take Matthew 7:21-23 literally, how many Christians do you think would stand a chance of getting into heaven? Not too many in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyGibbans Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Unfortunately, a lot of "fact" around the Heaven/Hell concept is made up by the Church.. In reality, there's no such thing as hell if you don't believe in it. And just confessing our sins to Jesus isn't going to get us into heaven. It's not quite that simple, as the Church would have us believe - "Join us, praise Jesus, give us all your money!" http://www.askrealjesus.com/K_JESUS_ANSWER...venandhell.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Unfortunately, a lot of "fact" around the Heaven/Hell concept is made up by the Church.. In reality, there's no such thing as hell if you don't believe in it. And just confessing our sins to Jesus isn't going to get us into heaven. It's not quite that simple, as the Church would have us believe - "Join us, praise Jesus, give us all your money!" http://www.askrealjesus.com/K_JESUS_ANSWER...venandhell.html Um....did you really just put the words "reality" and "believe" in the same sentence? What if I don't "believe" in the "reality" of the Grand Canyon? Do you see how stupid that looks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyGibbans Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Unfortunately, a lot of "fact" around the Heaven/Hell concept is made up by the Church.. In reality, there's no such thing as hell if you don't believe in it. And just confessing our sins to Jesus isn't going to get us into heaven. It's not quite that simple, as the Church would have us believe - "Join us, praise Jesus, give us all your money!" http://www.askrealjesus.com/K_JESUS_ANSWER...venandhell.html Um....did you really just put the words "reality" and "believe" in the same sentence? What if I don't "believe" in the "reality" of the Grand Canyon? Do you see how stupid that looks? Come on, don't be so technical. You can see what I mean though, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Come on, don't be so technical. You can see what I mean though, right? No. I can't. There is belief, and there is knowledge. To know something and to believe in something are not the same thing. Or do you subscribe to a "What Dreams May Come"-esque notion that we create our own hell? It was a sweet fuzzy fantasy film with sweet fuzzy fantasy ideas. Fantasizing is nice and fun, but confusing it with reality and trying to pass it off as "truth"? Uh-uh. People who do that do strange things like think they are Jesus, or that Jesus speaks through them on websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyGibbans Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Come on, don't be so technical. You can see what I mean though, right? No. I can't. There is belief, and there is knowledge. To know something and to believe in something are not the same thing. Or do you subscribe to a "What Dreams May Come"-esque notion that we create our own hell? It was a sweet fuzzy fantasy film with sweet fuzzy fantasy ideas. Fantasizing is nice and fun, but confusing it with reality and trying to pass it off as "truth"? Uh-uh. People who do that do strange things like think they are Jesus, or that Jesus speaks through them on websites. Fine. Remove the word reality. And what I said still makes sense. Unfortunately, a lot of "fact" around the Heaven/Hell concept is made up by the Church.. In fact, there's no such thing as hell if you don't believe in it. And just confessing our sins to Jesus isn't going to get us into heaven. It's not quite that simple, as the Church would have us believe - "Join us, praise Jesus, give us all your money!" Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Unfortunately, a lot of "fact" around the Heaven/Hell concept is made up by the Church.. In fact, there's no such thing as hell if you don't believe in it. And just confessing our sins to Jesus isn't going to get us into heaven. It's not quite that simple, as the Church would have us believe - "Join us, praise Jesus, give us all your money!" Happy? No. Marty. That doesn't fix it. Now you've got: If I "believe" in the Grand Canyon, that makes it's existence a "fact". When obviously the existence of the Grand Canyon is not effected in any way by whether I believe it exists or not! Gah! It's like herding cats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Gah! It's like herding cats! Cat herding Yah! Get along yee little varmits!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia Lass Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Okay, well let's pretend for a moment that the gospel is all true and that most people are going to hell. If most people are going to hell, then who is going to heaven? A Christian might say "Someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour". The general belief amongst Christians is that anyone who has 'accepted Jesus into their heart' will be on their way to heaven. But is that what the bible says? Let us look at Matthew 7:21-23 - Not all who talk like godly people are godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord' but still won't get to heaven. For the decisive question is whether they obey my Father, in heaven. At the judgment many will tell me 'Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.' But I will reply 'You have never been mine. Go away for your deeds are evil. This is one passage of scripture I bet you never heard in church! The only logical conclusion one can make from this saying of Jesus is that it refers to people who consider themselves Christians. Keith Green was one of the few Christians who questioned that Christians were saved 'just by making a confession of salvation'. I think he believed that quite a number of 'Christians' weren't truly 'saved'. In one of his books he said that the word 'believe' when it infers to believing on Jesus meant something like 'total dependence', and letting Jesus be in control. But it's been a while since I read that book so I can't quite remember. Re Matthew 7:21-23, I wonder how many 'Christians' would fall foul of this. Jesus even says that people who told others about him would be condemned! Nice, merciful Jesus!! I would be interested in what any Christian has to say about the points I've raised. For the ex-christians, did you used to think that salvation was a simple matter of believing and confessing Jesus into your heart? If you take Matthew 7:21-23 literally, how many Christians do you think would stand a chance of getting into heaven? Not too many in my opinion. Back when I became a Christian I only read things out of Revelations but I felt a good Christian would read the bible back to front, so I started reading an hour a day for months (slow reader) and by the time I got to Acts I knew I was going to hell. I read somewhere near Acts that if you don't accept Jesus as a small child you will never enter the kingdom of God. I had just turned to Jesus and was 16 at the time, I thought I was UN-savable just because my family were Godless hippies and they didn't give me a bible for my 8th birthday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyGibbans Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Unfortunately, a lot of "fact" around the Heaven/Hell concept is made up by the Church.. In fact, there's no such thing as hell if you don't believe in it. And just confessing our sins to Jesus isn't going to get us into heaven. It's not quite that simple, as the Church would have us believe - "Join us, praise Jesus, give us all your money!" Happy? No. Marty. That doesn't fix it. Now you've got: If I "believe" in the Grand Canyon, that makes it's existence a "fact". When obviously the existence of the Grand Canyon is not effected in any way by whether I believe it exists or not! Gah! It's like herding cats! Are you an English teacher? If not, please become one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Okay, well let's pretend for a moment that the gospel is all true and that most people are going to hell. If most people are going to hell, then who is going to heaven? A Christian might say "Someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour". The general belief amongst Christians is that anyone who has 'accepted Jesus into their heart' will be on their way to heaven. But is that what the bible says? Let us look at Matthew 7:21-23 - Not all who talk like godly people are godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord' but still won't get to heaven. For the decisive question is whether they obey my Father, in heaven. At the judgment many will tell me 'Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.' But I will reply 'You have never been mine. Go away for your deeds are evil. This is one passage of scripture I bet you never heard in church! The only logical conclusion one can make from this saying of Jesus is that it refers to people who consider themselves Christians. Keith Green was one of the few Christians who questioned that Christians were saved 'just by making a confession of salvation'. I think he believed that quite a number of 'Christians' weren't truly 'saved'. In one of his books he said that the word 'believe' when it infers to believing on Jesus meant something like 'total dependence', and letting Jesus be in control. But it's been a while since I read that book so I can't quite remember. Actually, I did hear it in church. But of course, it was referred to as meaning everyone else. Cat herding Yah! Get along yee little varmits!!! LOL on the cat herding video! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Gah! It's like herding cats! Cat herding Yah! Get along yee little varmits!!! That has to be my favorite Superbowl commercial of all time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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