neverclear5 Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 If God wanted to forgive us then why not just forgive us? Why was it necessary to create himself in human form (which presumably "created man in his own image" he was anyway) and then have that version of himself tortured and killed so we could be firgiven? He could of just done it. Is this some form of celestial self harm?? LOOK WORLD LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO TO MYSELF!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 I dunno... easier to shame people into following you if you can screw yourself up and blame them for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartP Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 There's a whole complicated pile of stuff about how a blood sacrifice is necessary to remove sin. The Abraham/Isaac thing was supposed to be an image of Jesus' sacrifice. It's linked to skapegoats and stuff. Anyway, one of the missing links I feel is who demanded this sacrifice? I didn't. Satan didn't. It's all God's crazy plan. And another thing - someone else pointed out, what's the big deal? jeus death is supposed to cover all people for all time. Yet what did he go thru to achieve this? had a beating, and then suffered some hours on the cross. Then he died, but no worries, coz he came alive again. People have suffered in death camps for MONTHS, YEARS. People have been tortured to death horribly. I'm saying that many people have suffered more than Jesus did. If I was guaranteed eternal bliss, I'd submit to a few hours torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 If you think in terms of an Intellegent Designer of the universe, who planted the seeds of distraction everywhere for us to only think nothing supernatural happened in the natural world, who then sends a message to man through some insane people who lived on grasshoppers in the desert about how God wants blood shed in order to show his love to us, then sends himself/his son/the 2nd person in a tri-une himself to earth to be killed to let us know he loves us, then it all makes perfect sense. God is interested in only those whose faith is so strong that it goes against reason. Those who use their minds to look at the evidence and disregard the prophets deserve to go to hell for not believing enough. What's so hard to understand about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 If you think in terms of an Intellegent Designer of the universe, who planted the seeds of distraction everywhere for us to only think nothing supernatural happened in the natural world, who then sends a message to man through some insane people who lived on grasshoppers in the desert about how God wants blood shed in order to show his love to us, then sends himself/his son/the 2nd person in a tri-une himself to earth to be killed to let us know he loves us, then it all makes perfect sense. God is interested in only those whose faith is so strong that it goes against reason. Those who use their minds to look at the evidence and disregard the prophets deserve to go to hell for not believing enough. What's so hard to understand about this?It's easy to understand once you understand that the bigger the lie the more firmly they'll believe in it. Since this god crap is the biggest lie ever told you'll have a large number of people believing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 NC, I cannot think of a good answer; the proposition makes no sense. I think what confounds most people is the contradictory message that people have heard that "God is love", or "God is truth". With this underlying and erroneous belief coupled with the assertion that "God demands justice" we follow the four steps of salvation plan without questioning the logic of it too deeply. In addition, when xtians forgive each other it is always framed from the perspective that we follow the footsteps of Jesus. Hence, they lack good examples of forgiveness with which to interpret the theology. What really and truly broke this for me was when I realized that when my kids were acting vile I forgave them without reservation. But my understanding went deeper than that. I thought about my relationship with my father who passed away many years ago with whom where were a few words (nothing too serious) that went unsaid. It was then I knew without a doubt that my dad understood. My dad loved me and forgave me in advance and then I forgave him in retrospect and I knew that he died knowing that I would understand one day. This is the real meaning of forgiveness folks, this is love and the requirement of a sacrifice makes a complete and utter mockery of it. Mongo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riverbank Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 StewartP quote: And another thing - someone else pointed out, what's the big deal? jeus death is supposed to cover all people for all time. Yet what did he go thru to achieve this? had a beating, and then suffered some hours on the cross. Then he died, but no worries, coz he came alive again. People have suffered in death camps for MONTHS, YEARS. People have been tortured to death horribly. I'm saying that many people have suffered more than Jesus did. If I was guaranteed eternal bliss, I'd submit to a few hours torture. Soooo true. And I bet he never went through as much mental torture as a lot of people. Also I find it amazing to be honest that people believe that something as insignificant as Jesus's suffering and dying on the cross is enough to save them from an eternity in hell. Mongo quote: With this underlying and erroneous belief coupled with the assertion that "God demands justice" we follow the four steps of salvation plan without questioning the logic of it too deeply. This "justice" business is something I would love to see christians get out of their heads. Any god that can torment people whilst enjoying himself soaked in heaven's bliss at the same time is a fucking lunatic. As for the original question, I'm afraid I don't have any sensible answers on that one, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Aaah, that sweet chirping of crickets from the cultist corner... at least within this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverclear5 Posted November 16, 2006 Author Share Posted November 16, 2006 Aaah, that sweet chirping of crickets from the cultist corner... at least within this thread... I shouldn't worry, they'll be back when they've consulted their elders and discovered that the truely christian thing to do is leave an unrealated bible verse and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 I shouldn't worry, they'll be back when they've consulted their elders and discovered that the truely christian thing to do is leave an unrealated bible verse and run. Great line. Sums up the desparateness of their arguments quite well. Mongo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 That is a very good question, and one that I've not yet heard a satisfactory answer to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTDT Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 You know, it's such a simple and obvious thing to ask, but it must have been a couple years on my journey out of xianity before I finally asked myself this exactly the way you did, slapped myself upside the head and went "d'oh!" Similar to the parent/child analogy, I like to draw the owner/dog analogy. I love my dogs more than most humans. And yet, they do doggie things that drive me nuts. Why? Because they don't have 'human' nature and don't always naturally abide by my preferences and conveniences and needs, they have 'doggie' nature. They have their own ideas of what makes them happy, and when I choose to love them I choose to accept their needs and limitations. If an accident happens on the carpet or a trash can gets pillaged - the definition of 'sin' in my house - do I have to slay something and spill blood before I can love my dogs? Do I say to my beloved dogs, "FINE! YOU CHOSE TO DO THIS SO NOW I CHOOSE TO TORTURE YOU FOR ALL INFINITY AND IT IS YOUR CHOICE...DON'T BLAME ME!" and then inflict the worst pain imaginable on them because they did something inherently dog-natured like look for an inappropriate place to pee when they had to go? No, in general, I just clean up the mess, chide myself for leaving something where they could get to it or for not letting them out in time, and go back to loving them as usual like nothing ever happened. It is THAT SIMPLE. That is what love naturally does. How much MORE would a creator/god be responsible and irrational for endowing us with our 'natures' and then having to go on a bloodthirsty torturous binge because our 'natures' are not his nature? The whole entire foundation of Christianity defies the very definitions of love, forgiveness, wisdom, goodness, rationality, and all things decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Anyway, one of the missing links I feel is who demanded this sacrifice? He certainly did not demand any such sacrifice in the "Old Testament". I guess the Jews are still asking this questions to Christian till this day. Conviently this information is only present in the "New Testament" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverclear5 Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 Still not a single christian responce????? come on someone must be able to say something? anything? . . . . . no? well look I know you and your god have been defeated but really, there's no need to worship me....... I'm just like you, only not an idiot. . . . . Okay, well maybe just a little worship! where's the priestess's at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior_of_god Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 It's easy to understand once you understand that the bigger the lie the more firmly they'll believe in it. Since this god crap is the biggest lie ever told you'll have a large number of people believing it. Heh, Hitler knew that all to well. As for the original question, why indeed. Why would he use any earthly vessel to do anything? I have yet to hear a good answer to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverclear5 Posted November 22, 2006 Author Share Posted November 22, 2006 Still not a single christian??? come on! You come into my science thread and spout bollocks that means nothing yet, a real theological discussion and you're nowhere to be seen. Any answer???? If you believe it then whats your reason?? Surely you have one?? If its blind faith then just say it. blind faith. Its stupid but it's an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 I never understood the whole blood sacrifice thing anyway. I understand the concept of it, but think it's really stupid. My thoughts exactly....even though blood is supposed to equal life...what purpose would "god" need to have an animal or a person sacrificed to begin with. After all, it's God...if he wanted to forgive, just DO IT! Why have the go-betweens and all the suffering and death? That's not loving to declare something/someone must DIE in order to be able to FORGIVE.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 God already had a bloodless plan of salvation, so he didn't really need Jesus Paul mucking it up. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=158195 Sorry for the shameless self promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Apostate Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 And another thing - someone else pointed out, what's the big deal? jeus death is supposed to cover all people for all time. Yet what did he go thru to achieve this? had a beating, and then suffered some hours on the cross. Then he died, but no worries, coz he came alive again. That's something that has always been a question for me as well: How much of a sacrifice is it to "lay down your life" if you know that you will be resurrected shortly thereafter? It's sort like gambling with Monopoly money - it hurts to lose it, but you know it really doesn't matter that much in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 No, in general, I just clean up the mess, chide myself for leaving something where they could get to it or for not letting them out in time, and go back to loving them as usual like nothing ever happened. It is THAT SIMPLE. That is what love naturally does. WHAT? You forgive your dogs without smashing your thumb with a hammer first? How UNCHRISTLIKE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 That's one thing that has always confused me about this. If Jehovah is truely kind, unconditionally loving, omnipotent, just, and allmighty, then the Bible and Jesus are completely unnecessary. BUT, the Bible paints Jehovah very differently. Jehovah is fallible, jealous, and in many ways, very much like a human Himself. This keeps in trot with the perceptions of the GrecoRoman pantheon and other gods of the time period, which were also painted as being fallible human like creatures that made mistakes, had feelings, and weren't terribly all knowing. To dip back into Christian thinking here for a moment, if we're going by Bible version of Jehovah and the Fallible God idea, then Jesus makes more sense. Humanity is going massively wayward again, and God's gotta fix it. So he decides to do this personally. His coming to earth was not just about forgiving sins, it was also about teaching and bridging the gap of communication between man and god. What better way to do this than to show up as a human yourself and show everybody that you understand what it's like to be born, live, suffer, bleed, and die? So the cross episode means two things. One it's God's way of showing, "See? I know being a human is tough and (ouch) I'm willing to do this to show you that I really do understand what you go through. I just ask you keep in touch." Then two, "I'm not going to rain fire on you or flood you for being bad. Your debt is paid in dramatics, just try not to accrue more, ok?" Who knows? Maybe us humans have it wrong on what it means to be a god? Can you be a god and still make mistakes and not see or know everything? (Honestly, the idea of some big human running the univese scares the bejeebies out of me, but I'm throwing out this idea because it was rattling around in my brain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverclear5 Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 Still nothing from the christian corner??? come on! tell me I just don't understand......... come on......... anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Still not a single christian responce????? come on someone must be able to say something? anything? . . . . . no? well look I know you and your god have been defeated but really, there's no need to worship me....... I'm just like you, only not an idiot. . . . . Okay, well maybe just a little worship! where's the priestess's at? The Christian lack of answer to this question is what made me leave Christianity. It turned into a moral issue in that I was requested to lie and profess that I was saved through Jesus' blood. Aside from the moral monstrosities God committed, it was this one thing I could pin down no matter what they brought against me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverclear5 Posted December 4, 2006 Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 The Christian lack of answer to this question is what made me leave Christianity. It turned into a moral issue in that I was requested to lie and profess that I was saved through Jesus' blood. Aside from the moral monstrosities God committed, it was this one thing I could pin down no matter what they brought against me. look guys....... your losing people here due to this one question! Still no answer? This "lion's den" is seeming more and more like a cat box! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 It was a big problem I had when I began to question the Jebus cult. When you break it down, as done in the first post, the "gift of salvation" really makes no sense at all. Instead of just forgiving us, or appearing to all of humanity at the same time and requiring that we just believe in him and follow his instructions, he takes human form and goes through all that rigamarole. Truly an insane idea - indicative of the bloodthirsty, sacrifice-crazed minds that thought it up. Small wonder, considering the equally man-made text of the Old Testament, where just about anytime Yahooweh talks to humans someone or something dies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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