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Need A Little Advice...


Guest Firehawk
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Guest Firehawk

I've been being hammered by an inDUHvidual whose been trying to show me the error of my eXtian ways. He's a catholic who claims to value the bible more than the non-biblical teachings of the catholic church. He insists that John 20:22, 23 "proves" that priests in the catholic church were "bestowed" by "god" with the power to forgive sins...

 

I personally think this contradicts the overall message of the bible that forgiveness of sins comes from the so-called "god" alone and that the ideas presented by the catholic church place them in the position that the bible assigns to "christ."

 

He insists that his personal beliefs and the ideas of the church don't contradict themselves...

 

I've been researching, but I seem to have hit a concrete wall... Any suggestions?

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21 He spoke to them again and said, "As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."

22 Then he breathed on them and told them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

John 20:21-22

 

This is so much theological bs on so many levels, it's impossible to say he's right or wrong because its such a nebulous, un-authoritative passage, probably written 70 years after Jesus' death. It's mythology giving Jesus a power he would never have claimed as a Jew.

 

Above all it's a major flaw in Christian dogma, that even God himself can die for our sins (trespass on others). We alone are responsible for our immorality, which was John the Baptizer's message and was certainly his disciple's (Jesus') as well. The message their voices cried in the desert was to repent, not to continue to do the evil you're doing because you're forgiven.

 

Priest's know this, but if they (or the Church) admit it or any of the other contradictions, errancy and lies in the Bible, they loose power and control. You might as well argue with a brick wall--or an evangelical.

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If you are willing to believe that any person has the power of a deity as bestowed on them, you've given up your individuality, your responsibility as a human being, and in essence your personality.

 

Don't believe anyone who claims any deity-given power over anything. Decide for yourself what you will do with your mind, your life. Decide for yourself what you will believe in going forward. You alone are responsible for your life.

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....I've been researching, but I seem to have hit a concrete wall... Any suggestions?...
I just don't allow any bible quotes in my discussions with that kind of person. Once you eliminate the bible, they have nothing.
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If you are willing to believe that any person has the power of a deity as bestowed on them, you've given up your individuality, your responsibility as a human being, and in essence your personality.

 

Don't believe anyone who claims any deity-given power over anything. Decide for yourself what you will do with your mind, your life. Decide for yourself what you will believe in going forward. You alone are responsible for your life.

 

Agreed. Question everything, especially fantastic claims of divine power. Think about it logically. Always demand verifiable evidence whenever people make fantastic claims like that. Read up on archaeology -- there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed, other than things that were written down. Anyone can write anything in a book and claim that it was inspired by god, but that doesn't make it true.

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The bible is a fairy tale and his faith is built upon a myth. To argue one piece of scripture against another is to give the bible the undeserved credit that even part of it contains a truth.

 

Contend that the bible in suus universus is false.

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Guest Firehawk

Thank you for your replies and your welcomes... I was actually a member of the forum before but I guess I'd been inactive for a while and my old account just lapsed...

 

I was actually here at the very begining when there were almost no members on the forums, but I only posted as a guest...

 

I made the mistake of taking the moonbat whose been trying to reconvert me too seriously... His final argument was summed up by the statement, "that's a rejection of the 'bible as a word of god."

 

"No kidding" was my response.

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have read on

 

20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

 

what, was he planning on writing a sequel??

 

John 2 'this time he's pissed off!'

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John 20:19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

 

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (NIV)

 

For Catholics, priests are in the place of the apostles with the Pope being the head, as the spiritual descendant of Peter. The Roman Church sees here that Jesus is talking to the apostles in private with the message directed just to them and by extension just to priests.

 

Priests were a problem for Protestants because they were wary of the central authority they rejected. So they looked to 1 Peter 2:5-9 and got the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer, or the priesthood of believers. (There is some argument over the correct way to think of this -- what else is new?) Protestants considered the priesthood to be one of the many corruptions of Rome.

 

So when you are arguing with your friend you are arguing a matter of authority concerning who gets to interpret.

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....I made the mistake of taking the moonbat whose been trying to reconvert me too seriously... His final argument was summed up by the statement, "that's a rejection of the 'bible as a word of god."

 

"No kidding" was my response.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking should be your response. Why discuss the ideas of a book that is so contradictory and just plain old weird?

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Firehawk
That's exactly what I was thinking should be your response. Why discuss the ideas of a book that is so contradictory and just plain old weird?

 

Trying to help a convinced Xtian see that the bible is contradictory is like trying to run a marathon without breathing...

 

Especially when you get talking to these ones that want to argue the merrits of their particular strain of Xtianity as opposed to another...

 

Its really amazing- they can actually seem like the have a brain when they argue against another group. They can pick out all the contradictions, they can make the most logical and thoughtful arguments why one particular Xtian group is a bunch of fools but when you turn that mirror around at them they become braindead idiots...

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Yes, without their book, they have nothing. It's because they have forgotten how to think with their brains. They burden themselves day and night over something that they cannot even prove, yet they feed themselves the lie that persecution is the result of dealing with those that oppose. They lie to themselves that they should pat themselves on the back and praise the lord, because they're being blessed.

 

The contradiction is that if people could cleanse each other's sins, they wouldn't even need this "God" of theirs. What makes priests, who were born in the same way as everyone else so special? The whole thing just doesn't add up.

 

In addition to all of that, they state that the Bible is historical and the accounts are recorded in history. Yes, Israel and countries, blah blah blah, but where's Jesus? Where is it recorded in history what Christians believe to be the most essential?

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