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Goodbye Jesus

Are We Still Sinners?


weary traveler

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True Christians.

 

That "TM" denotation is clever. I like it.

 

I notice you are from St. Petersburg. I'd love to visit Russia one day. I took some Russian history in college, wrote a paper about that mad monk Rasputin (what a character), read Gorbachev's books Glasnost and Perestroika with gusto, even attended a speech given by Gorbachev, and have the last 12 issues of Soviet Life magazine still packed away!

 

I'd be interested, too, in any insights you have about the role of religion in the former Soviet Union and today's Russia.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

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If the bible is not taken as ultimate truth regarding original sin, then how else would you explain man's inherent nature? Why do we have a tendancy to want to do things that harm one another often times, for example (and other similar things)? What about death? What accounts for our eventual physical demise if we don't have original sin?

 

Just wondering what others have come up with in pondering this one.

 

At the risk of repeating others (I haven't read beyond your first post yet), your question itself is based on a false assumption. That being pretty much everything your question implies about the base nature of man and the idea that death is unnatural and is a result of some failing.

 

I don't see a basis for any of your beliefs about humanity and death.

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As I pointed out, you conveniently disassociate your self and your beliefs from those acts you disagree with and claim all those that you do. I have already agreed that Christians have done good things. I also mentioned in another post where I don't find this truth to be profound. Many have done good things with their lives. You on the other hand have failed to show why Christianity is unique, special, or in any way out of the ordinary.

 

As for your statement above in quotes, you are going to have to do much better than just making such a bold claim. How is it that the good some Christians have done easily negates the political support your brethren have offered governments as governments have done many unmentionable acts against humanity? How is it that the good negates the rape and destruction wrought on Africa by missionaries who have robbed cultures and Christianized nations only to help usher in colonial economies that have since been disastrous to many generations (good intentions or not, the fallout of Christianizing Africa has been horrendous)? How is it that you find more good than bad in those parents who teach their children that there is an angry god ready to burn them, their family and their loved ones if any of them should be so bold as to just be a human being?

 

You charge me with ignorance for discounting your tales of Christian history. I may be. We are all ignorant; some just more so than others. Perhaps though I have chosen to spend my time learning about other areas that I find more fulfilling and more pertinent to not only my life, but to understanding history and who we are than just focusing narrowly on the history of one ignorant bronze age religion. You've attacked my ignorance of a subject you yourself finds important, and which I discount the importance of. You have not, however, made the case that, again I repeat, Christianity is something unique or profound.

 

No I only disassociate myself from calling people Christians who never got to read the NT. To do otherwise is about as rational as calling someone ignorant of the Constitution a true patriot. Meanwhile you conveniently ignore the incredible differences in between those who read the NT and those who didn't. You assert "it makes no difference, really."

 

I haven't said all Protestant bible students are wonderful people either. I have merely said that, overall, they have done and do a heck of a lot more for humanity than any other group.

 

Fine, where are your "humanist" Wesley's decrying slavery a hundred years before Ingersoll jumped on the band-wagon? Your Churchill leading a small nation to hold off the Nazi onslaught all by itself until another "Christian civilization" came to the rescue? Where is your William L. Garrison? Where is your Oberlin College? Your Bacon, Locke, Adams and Jefferson calling Jesus' teachings their "religion" or "the most sublime philosophy"? Where are your 500 private hospitals which Ingersoll claimed you would also build but never did? Where is your Solenzenitzen, your Corrie Ten Boom, your Albert Sweitzer? Where is your Evan Roberts, who seldom preached but by sheer personal example and prayer, emptied the jails and courtrooms in turn of the century Wales?

 

Maybe it took awhile to get up to speed. So where is your Rick Warren and his war on AIDS? But I suppose he has some personal flaw which negates all his humanitarian work.

 

To these questions we get a bunch of assertions we must take on faith. "People would do all that stuff without Christ." Yeah and look at the 60,000,000 people they murdered, worked or starved to death without him, more than all the religious "atrocities" in all of history put together.

 

Whatever yo may decde about my character, I do a thousand things different than I would do if I wasn't a Christian. That's because I know Jesus is watching all. You say my belief is foolish, but if I really believe it, then it makes a big difference. I am sensitive to every sin Paul listed, and their negative effects on people, while most skeptics conveniently call them "Christian inventions" and go their merry way.

 

Yes you have your Ghandi and your Jonas Salk and your Mikhail Gorbachev. I will not pretend they have not helped the world. "Humanist" scientists have made amazing discoveries that have helped us materially. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about these amazing assertions at the beginning of this thread that Christians are some lump of foolish and degraded humanity that the world would be better off without. You can't come close to proving that without counting ignorant medieval "Christians" who thought evil Popes were Jesus' favorite people. And even then the numbers of victims just don't add up.

 

Rad

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First, medieval Xians were Xians. Give it a rest.

 

Second, the "godless" people whom you cite as having killed 60,000 had Xian backgrounds and education. Hitler and Stalin had Xian educations and came from Xian families, if I recall correctly. Hence, having a strict upbringing in good old fashioned Xian intolerance, it's no wonder they turned out as they did.

 

Vigile mentioned the British Empire. They were Xians and brutal at that. And yes, identifying as Xian makes you Xian - and the British Empire didn't outlaw the wicked New Testament, rather they read it and soaked up the bloody, intolerant injunctions of Jebus, and lived them out in classic form.

 

Your particular flavor of Xianity, the uber-fundy sort, didn't exist until the Great Awakening. Xianity existed for centuries before your lot did. So yes, the aforementioned were all Xians to a man, and they all either openly used their Xianity to do ill to others, or were influenced by its intolerance to do the same.

 

And a few goodly-minded Xian preachers complaining about slavery means nothing. It is good that they did try to do some good, but the historical record simply does not support the idea of Xianity (of any sort) having been an overall good thing. Where fundamentalism is rampant, education, culture, and freedom always decline.

 

You can lie all you like, but you know I'm right :)

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No I only disassociate myself from calling people Christians who never got to read the NT. To do otherwise is about as rational as calling someone ignorant of the Constitution a true patriot. Meanwhile you conveniently ignore the incredible differences in between those who read the NT and those who didn't. You assert "it makes no difference, really."

 

Excuse me?! You seem to think I have been focusing on the crusades and not 19th, 20th and even 21st century atrocities wrought by Christians and Christian nations. Your debate tactics are disingenuous.

 

 

 

Fine, where are your "humanist" Wesley's decrying slavery a hundred years before Ingersoll jumped on the band-wagon? [etc....]

 

For the third, or perhaps even fourth time, I have acknowledged that Christian faith can inspire individuals to do great things. I need look no further than my own grandfather to back up your assertions.

 

The difference between your position and mine is that you seem to think that the good things that come from Christianity are somehow unique and special. I argue that great men, given an ideology to motivate them will do great things. I also argue that many dastardly things have been done by those who believe your precious NT. You simply disavowed yourself of those because they happen to belong to a different church than yours.

 

Yet, what I see here is you claiming the works of post enlightenment era evangelicals, as if some magical power issued forth upon the dissemination of the 1611 translation. Where was your god before that? Better, where was the power of the gospel to transform human kind and the governments of the world between 100 AD and 1611AD?

 

Do you truly claim that the democratic benefits enjoyed in the west today were the result of the Christian reformers you mention, denying that the ideas are at least as old as Plato and that the foundations of the Constitution were laid down by Locke's 2nd Treatise?

 

Yes I acknowledge that Christians had a role in creating the societies that we enjoy today. I need not defend the humanists you mention for as I have repeatedly said in this thread, men are men are men. I have simply argued that Christianity plays no greater role in the world than any other idea or ideology. Humanism is no different. Mostly I believe they did so despite their beliefs and not because of them, but that's where we disagree is it not?

 

Whatever yo may decde about my character, I do a thousand things different than I would do if I wasn't a Christian. That's because I know Jesus is watching all. You say my belief is foolish, but if I really believe it, then it makes a big difference. I am sensitive to every sin Paul listed, and their negative effects on people, while most skeptics conveniently call them "Christian inventions" and go their merry way.

 

And I now choose to do a 1000 things different than I did in fact do when I was a Christian for the first 25 years of my life. Christianity for me was nothing but baggage and negativity despite the white washing and sugar coating that the tenets of the faith receive from Christians. In many ways my personal morality has improved immensely. I have a greater social conscience and a greater appreciation for the here and the now. In many ways I'm more free and my self esteem has improved. In many ways I maintain the same values I was raised with.

 

 

 

That "TM" denotation is clever. I like it.

 

Well, I can't claim to be its originator. Just wrap TM in (). HTML takes care of the rest.

 

I'd be interested, too, in any insights you have about the role of religion in the former Soviet Union and today's Russia.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

 

It's making a comeback, but it's more tradition than dogma. For a while there was a strong push to regain the Russian identity. Now the main focus seems to be on getting rich. At some point they will settle in to some form of introspection. Right now their quiet times alone are probably spent contemplating how the 100%/year growth in RE prices affects their apartment.

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First, medieval Xians were Xians. Give it a rest.

 

OK, but let me just say I'm a great patriot. I wave flags. :HaHa:

 

Second, the "godless" people whom you cite as having killed 60,000

 

Sorry, that would be 60 million.

 

had Xian backgrounds and education. Hitler and Stalin had Xian educations and came from Xian families,

 

Heh. Unfortunately you can't prove they knew one thing Jesus said.

 

if I recall correctly. Hence, having a strict upbringing in good old fashioned Xian intolerance, it's no wonder they turned out as they did.

 

Wow, didn't you just make every ex-fundy-Christian here a monster by that logic? I think so.

 

Vigile mentioned the British Empire. They were Xians and brutal at that. And yes, identifying as Xian makes you Xian - and the British Empire didn't outlaw the wicked New Testament, rather they read it and soaked up the bloody, intolerant injunctions of Jebus, and lived them out in classic form.

 

Then they, along with the rest of "Christian civilization" as Churchill called it, kept you and your children from having to salute der Fueher for a thousand years. Ask any French person 75 or older.

 

Your particular flavor of Xianity, the uber-fundy sort, didn't exist until the Great Awakening.

 

Well actually I and the ante-Nicene fathers are in perfect agreement, as are virtually all other Protestants. No it didn't exist between 300 and 1700, you are correct. And we see the horrible results during the reighn of "the Papists" as Jefferson called them. We found a point of agreement.

Xianity existed for centuries before your lot did.

 

Wow. "Your lot" has the same sweeping ring to it as "those liberals" or something.

 

So yes, the aforementioned were all Xians to a man, and they all either openly used their Xianity to do ill to others, or were influenced by its intolerance to do the same.

 

We'll have to take such a sweeping assertion on faith I guess. I really wonder how many skeptics here agree with that amazing statement.

 

And a few goodly-minded Xian preachers complaining about slavery means nothing.

 

They did a lot more than complain. They kept them in their houses, smuggled them out of the south, invited them into their meetings and bought their freedom. The early Christians in one case bought 120 slaves from a single ship and set them free.

 

It is good that they did try to do some good, but the historical record simply does not support the idea of Xianity (of any sort) having been an overall good thing. Where fundamentalism is rampant, education, culture, and freedom always decline.

 

Really? How is it so many of the suffragets and Oberlin graduates fought for women's rights? How is it Garrison got so much credit from Lincoln for ending slavery- more even than Douglas?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can lie all you like, but you know I'm right

 

Right about what? That Stalin's parents had a Bible in the house or something? That all people raised in strict Christian homes are bound to become monsters?

 

Good grief. Let's hope there is no truth to that.

 

 

 

Rad

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Wow, Rad's still on the bullshit rampage.

 

Still spouting Xian propaganda, I see. You're a good little robot. You'll make Jebus real proud one day (I'm sure you think).

 

I didn't say that all who were raised in strict Xian households would turn out to be monsters. But it does have the potential to be a factor. Raise kids with intolerance and they become intolerant. Many ex-xians are assholes because they were taught to be assholes when they were Xians.

 

You pine about this Oberlin college (I never heard of this place when I was a NT-freak fundy Xian) and slavery, but like it or not, Xians practiced slavery and kept women down for centuries. Your assertion that they were not True Believers™ because you assume (without the slightest evidence) that they were ignorant of the NT is just another twist on the No True Scotsman fallacy. They were Xians and they did ill - and the historical record supports more centuries of Xian violence than it does Xian attempts at curbing violence and other social ills.

 

But no matter how much I or others may cite real evidence, you'll spout baseless Xian propaganda or claim anyone who ever did a bad thing was not a True Believer™. I suppose now is a good time to stick to my advice to Vigile and just stop wasting time with you.

 

If reading the NT is so powerful it will make anyone a perfect Xian who will never backslide, then my very existence is an eternal rebuttal. I was just that sort of Xian - reading the NT, listening to the advice of all the biggest American pastors and preachers, trusting in Jebus 100% for everything - but I'm not today. No matter what you say, I'm living proof that this so-called "powerful message" is nothing more than words in a book.

 

Of course, feel free to keep lying and making up bullshit examples, because we're all watching - and laughing :)

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Raise kids with intolerance and they become intolerant.

 

Another point of agreement, but apparently the ex-Christians here had parents who disagreed.

 

Many ex-xians are assholes because they were taught to be assholes when they were Xians.

 

An excellent question.

 

You pine about this Oberlin college (I never heard of this place when I was a NT-freak fundy Xian) and slavery, but like it or not, Xians practiced slavery and kept women down for centuries.

 

So did atheists. The question you can't answer is who brought about changes. Who did you think ended the Salem witch trials for example? Voltaire? Who did you think brought an end to slavery? Jefferson? No it was Christians busy obeying what Jesus said in Luke ch 4. Who do you think pushed for the child labor laws in the 19th century? Ingersoll? Nope, all "fundy' Christians.

 

But no matter how much I or others may cite real evidence,

 

Like what? You haven't refuted anything.

 

 

If reading the NT is so powerful it will make anyone a perfect Xian who will never backslide,

 

No you have to do what it says faithfully.

 

then my very existence is an eternal rebuttal. I was just that sort of Xian - reading the NT, listening to the advice of all the biggest American pastors and preachers, trusting in Jebus 100% for everything - but I'm not today. No matter what you say, I'm living proof that this so-called "powerful message" is nothing more than words in a book.

 

You can read all kinds of things and not get it. In fact Jesus said his Gospel was hidden from "the wise and prudent." Great scholars don't get it. I take that to mean he doesn't want people understanding who would not do what it says. This would create hypocrites and he seems to have quiteenough of those already. The spiritual is always hidden from the carnal mind.

 

Of course, feel free to keep lying and making up bullshit examples, because we're all watching - and laughing :)

 

Which is about all you have done, I admit- you anyway. Why don't you quit blustering "it really ain' so" and provide some examples of these great and moral and social actions you claim everybody else does, which preceded the Christian examples I gave. It is my contention that the great majority of great social and moral examples were set by faithful Christians. Why don't you provide some counter examples you keep claiming exist but don't provide in lieu of personal epithets?

 

Rad

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Let's say for the sake of discussion that a society that is primarily christian is a kinder society with less crime and brutality than an atheist society.

 

What on earth does that have to do with whether or not the religion is true?

 

I know a couple of very sweet Japanese ladies (buddhist) who literally will not swat a fly. They do not wish to make any bad karma for themselves that they may have to pay for in the next life. They are some of the most caring people I've ever met.

 

That doesn't make their beliefs true.

 

Mormonism is another example. Very family oriented. Upright. Proper. Law-abiding.

With goofy-ass beliefs and ideas.

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I think the horror of the world is only what you are seeing in the media - what is being reported in the news.

 

Outside of a few flame wars here and there, is it really that bad when you're on the internet? Do you see a lot of the same thing (if you do not go to news/media sites that is)? In your own neighborhood, is there a war going on? Are people shouting and yelling at each other and hurting each other all the time or is everyone pretty much minding their own business, enjoying their own lives, relaxing with family and friends after a hard days work? At least in my niche of the world, my neighbors are very quiet as I type this (12:51 am ET). Not a sound. Earlier there were some music, maybe a TV, kids in the hallway, adults coming and going but not very much. Just a brief moment, really. And some music/TV for a little while but you'd miss it if you weren't really listening. I heard some fire sirens but that's not the norm. Usually you don't hear sirens, just maybe the traffic up the street a little. Nothing bad.

 

Right now everyone is probably sleeping, getting rest for tomorrow's work day (I guess I should be soon too, after I want to watch a DVD I rented). Things are not at all like the news would have you believe American Life is like.

 

Tomorrow I expect much the same thing. Maybe I take it for granted, I dunno. I'm thankful that things aren't as bad as the media would have you believe.

 

People are good in my neighborhood. I used to live in a very bad area, in a dump. I'd probably have said something very different if I were still living there, I admit. But just a few short miles down the road now I live in a nice place. It's not bad all over. Just in a few places. But I think the media sensationalizes things to the point where we remember the most sensational and we never really stop and see what is really around us. We just assume we see something but it might not really be there.

 

Are we still "sinners"? Does it even make a difference? We do what we need to do to be happy and survive. Hopefully it will include making others happy so our environment we have to live in is a happy one. A comfortable one. It might mean doing something "immoral" by one religion or something wonderful and just and right by another's. It might mean saying "hi" to the gay neighbor and being friends so you do not have to worry about them being upset with you and wondering if they are going to do something bad to you or not because you don't even *know* them to know what they would do. Mostly they probably would just avoid you. But if you know them enough to say "Hi Neighbor" you can come home and say "I know that guy. He doesn't seem like he's out to get anyone." and you can relax in your home knowing who your neighbor is. While a Christian can naw and fret about the gay sinner who is an abomination to their ideals and worry about that horrible things will happen in their community because of this one person. And they live a rather unpeaceful and fretful, unhappy life because of it. Or they try to change him so they don't have to go home and fret and worry about God hurting them. Meanwhile, I come home and know what the person is really like, and is another neighbor. And don't have to worry about it.

 

Sin is just a label to put on something that one doesn't think is right. I can understand I think the idea of "forgiving sins" so that YOU don't fret and worry over what sinners do. Just let it go. Relax, and enjoy life. Let the other person worry about their own life and life it the way they feel they need to. You're not living their life and they are not living yours.

 

Same way if the person was Muslim or if they were something else. Whatever... I had a neighbor that taught me to "know your neighbor" so you don't worry about what goes on in the building if you know who is who and know what they are each like. Then you know their schedules, lifestyles and the unknown isn't as scary because it becomes known.

 

Good man this guy is. He's also schitzophrenic. But I wonder if he has more sense (while his medication is working, that is) than some of us who are "normal"!

 

Forrest Gump, anyone?

 

Sometimes the most simplest and obvious things in life are also the most hardest to find, because we sometimes just seem to overlook them.

 

So, anyway, before I get too depressed about "the state of the world" I try to look around me at my own little niche in the world, the friends I have, family. *THIS* is what I live in. This is what is happening now. Sure I keep my eyes open and with caution but I don't let it cloud my view of how my life really is and fill it with so much worry that the mainstream (and even other) media would want us to have.

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Let's say for the sake of discussion that a society that is primarily christian is a kinder society with less crime and brutality than an atheist society.

 

What on earth does that have to do with whether or not the religion is true?

 

I know a couple of very sweet Japanese ladies (buddhist) who literally will not swat a fly. They do not wish to make any bad karma for themselves that they may have to pay for in the next life. They are some of the most caring people I've ever met.

 

That doesn't make their beliefs true.

 

Mormonism is another example. Very family oriented. Upright. Proper. Law-abiding.

With goofy-ass beliefs and ideas.

 

Well thank you for your response, and it would take more than just a bunch of people calling themselves Christians to make a perfect society. Jesus made that crystal clear. I am simply arguing that overall, the serious Bibe students have set some outstanding examples of tolerance and love, way before the rest of us holy things. We are all sinners here, claiming in a thousand ways we are holier than our neighbor but all very much alike really. I would be the last to claim otherwise, given all my faults and weaknesses. (None of your business) I do think "But for the grace of God, there go I" is a uniquely Christian expression. It is this knowledge, that makes us tolerant if it's truly a heart-felt belief.

 

No, good works don't make it true, but if the truth is that some few Christians have set the best examples (and I have many more), then it ought to be known where people gather to talk only about the bad apples. And one thing I have found is that everybody knows about the Crusades and almost nobody knows the extraordinary contributions Christians made during the "enlightenment" which was about far more than scientific discovery. You will only here about Voltaire and Paine here though. That's all there is. The rest were all Christians, mostly "fundies" by modern standards.

 

I don't judge your Japanese friends. Currentchristian and I (and Lewis) have disavowed the doctrine that all unbelievers are bound for hell. Maybe if they really knew Jesus they would love him too. I assume they will get the chance. How would I know. Peter says those who have heard and rejected the Gospel are in danger, and calls the ignoran "better off." Yo can hardly be better off in hell.

 

As for the Mormons, they aren't a shining example of tolerance- claiming blacks bore the mark of Hamm blah blah, and treating women like garbage. I was in an all Mormon town once and they just stared and looked disgusted because I didn't dress and act as holy as they do. They have no idea who Jesus is as far as I am concerned. They are just religious- they don't feel or think as Jesus did. Even skeptics ask WWJD? because they know what I mean. I think religion is an incubator for the self-righteousness we all have, and in that sense it is harmful. The only way to know if Jesus was the son of God is to experience the complete inside out conversion and the "rivers of living water flowing out of his innermost being." Most here tried to sincerely to convert I suppose, but it was from the outside in. That's just religion, and Jesus never taught any religion, in spite of our heroic efforts to prove otherwise.

 

Oh and BTW, my favorite niece is a lesbian administrator of a woman's shelter.

 

Rad

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I think the horror of the world is only what you are seeing in the media - what is being reported in the news.

 

Outside of a few flame wars here and there, is it really that bad when you're on the internet? Do you see a lot of the same thing (if you do not go to news/media sites that is)? In your own neighborhood, is there a war going on? Are people shouting and yelling at each other and hurting each other all the time or is everyone pretty much minding their own business, enjoying their own lives, relaxing with family and friends after a hard days work? At least in my niche of the world, my neighbors are very quiet as I type this (12:51 am ET). Not a sound. Earlier there were some music, maybe a TV, kids in the hallway, adults coming and going but not very much. Just a brief moment, really. And some music/TV for a little while but you'd miss it if you weren't really listening. I heard some fire sirens but that's not the norm. Usually you don't hear sirens, just maybe the traffic up the street a little. Nothing bad.

 

Right now everyone is probably sleeping, getting rest for tomorrow's work day (I guess I should be soon too, after I want to watch a DVD I rented). Things are not at all like the news would have you believe American Life is like.

 

Tomorrow I expect much the same thing. Maybe I take it for granted, I dunno. I'm thankful that things aren't as bad as the media would have you believe.

 

People are good in my neighborhood. I used to live in a very bad area, in a dump. I'd probably have said something very different if I were still living there, I admit. But just a few short miles down the road now I live in a nice place. It's not bad all over. Just in a few places. But I think the media sensationalizes things to the point where we remember the most sensational and we never really stop and see what is really around us. We just assume we see something but it might not really be there.

 

Are we still "sinners"? Does it even make a difference? We do what we need to do to be happy and survive. Hopefully it will include making others happy so our environment we have to live in is a happy one. A comfortable one. It might mean doing something "immoral" by one religion or something wonderful and just and right by another's. It might mean saying "hi" to the gay neighbor and being friends so you do not have to worry about them being upset with you and wondering if they are going to do something bad to you or not because you don't even *know* them to know what they would do. Mostly they probably would just avoid you. But if you know them enough to say "Hi Neighbor" you can come home and say "I know that guy. He doesn't seem like he's out to get anyone." and you can relax in your home knowing who your neighbor is. While a Christian can naw and fret about the gay sinner who is an abomination to their ideals and worry about that horrible things will happen in their community because of this one person. And they live a rather unpeaceful and fretful, unhappy life because of it. Or they try to change him so they don't have to go home and fret and worry about God hurting them. Meanwhile, I come home and know what the person is really like, and is another neighbor. And don't have to worry about it.

 

Sin is just a label to put on something that one doesn't think is right. I can understand I think the idea of "forgiving sins" so that YOU don't fret and worry over what sinners do. Just let it go. Relax, and enjoy life. Let the other person worry about their own life and life it the way they feel they need to. You're not living their life and they are not living yours.

 

Same way if the person was Muslim or if they were something else. Whatever... I had a neighbor that taught me to "know your neighbor" so you don't worry about what goes on in the building if you know who is who and know what they are each like. Then you know their schedules, lifestyles and the unknown isn't as scary because it becomes known.

 

Good man this guy is. He's also schitzophrenic. But I wonder if he has more sense (while his medication is working, that is) than some of us who are "normal"!

 

Forrest Gump, anyone?

 

Sometimes the most simplest and obvious things in life are also the most hardest to find, because we sometimes just seem to overlook them.

 

So, anyway, before I get too depressed about "the state of the world" I try to look around me at my own little niche in the world, the friends I have, family. *THIS* is what I live in. This is what is happening now. Sure I keep my eyes open and with caution but I don't let it cloud my view of how my life really is and fill it with so much worry that the mainstream (and even other) media would want us to have.

 

This is an excellent post. We can all improve. We can all do better. We can all learn more. We can all be kinder. We all have much to be thankful for this Thanksgiving week.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

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I think religion is an incubator for the self-righteousness we all have, and in that sense it is harmful.

 

Very fine insight, Rad. This is the case not only with religion, but with all our little groups; we get in a group with others like ourselves and we grow to think quite highly of our superior natures, superior intellects, superior morals. (Can you imagine the audicity of naming one's group the Moral Majority or the Christian Coalition???) Everyone delights him/herself to one degree or another in his/her self-righteousness. Just last week, I read the book of Job again and got a new insight. While the story is (at times) confusing and even (at time) bizarre, it's a really great read. The messages I take from it are these:

 

We simply don't know everything, certainly not all the why's, and not everything makes sense and some things won't ever make sense with our ground's-eye view.

 

The other lesson is that while Job was a good and upright man, he also was self-righteous: "He was righteous in his own eyes....he justified himself rather than God."

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

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and the British Empire didn't outlaw the wicked New Testament, rather they read it and soaked up the bloody, intolerant injunctions of Jebus, and lived them out in classic form.

 

While imperialism is unacceptable because it must establish the imperialist as superior and the native as inferior, some good did come form the British in India: innumerable schools and hospitals were built, infrastructure and governing bodies were established. And when the chips were down, the British left India without bloodshed, brought to their knees by a man, Gandhi, who loved the Hindu book Bhagavad-Gita and the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. Gandhi's teaching, in turn, had a profound impact on the Baptist preacher Martin Luther King and the South African holy men Nelson Mandela and Bishop Desmond Tutu.

 

But let me be clear: Imperialism is unacceptable and Gandhi, a non-Christian, was a great and holy and man.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

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The way I see it, all of us (all animals, I mean) are born as completely self-centered creatures. Our own immediate needs are paramount, and drive our behavior. Survival is the primary biological imperative. The main difference between human beings and other animals is that we are capable of putting ourselves into another being's shoes, and exercising free will to set aside our own base survival instincts for the benefit of others. This is learned behavior, though. Otherwise, children are born selfish and grow up to be selfish adults. Why learn to be otherwise? It could be argued that individuals who take the time to think about it learn that enlightened self-interest is a greater survival tool than mere selfishness and brute force. Thus, we form social groups (tribes), and a collection of social groups can become a nation.

 

A tribe (or nation), by its nature, is composed of people who can empathize with others. Without empathy, the fabric of the social group unravels. So, it could be argued that empathy, in all its various forms, is one of the strongest survival traits of all, since the weak members are protected and nurtured by the strong - at least to a point, but it's a point at which those same weak individuals would have long since perished. In times of plenty, the social fabric of any group weakens, since individuals can better fend for themselves. Increase the cost of survival, and the fabric strengthens.

 

Throughout history, when a society is threatened with destruction, its members turn to the shamans for understanding and petitioning of the gods (eg: "No atheists in a foxhole"). Whatever nature the group consensus imbues the universe with, with its accompanying rituals and commandments, becomes the unimpeachable reality for its members. Any hint of rebellion threatens the survival of the tribe, and cannot be allowed. That's where religion gets its strength, why multitudes can be slaughtered in the name of (any) religion, and why attempting to intellectually convince tribal members of the folly of believing in a particularly strong set of rituals and theologies is a waste of time.

 

At any rate, that's how it looks from here.

 

 

Rob

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The way I see it, all of us (all animals, I mean) are born as completely self-centered creatures. Our own immediate needs are paramount, and drive our behavior. Survival is the primary biological imperative. The main difference between human beings and other animals is that we are capable of putting ourselves into another being's shoes, and exercising free will to set aside our own base survival instincts for the benefit of others. This is learned behavior, though. Otherwise, children are born selfish and grow up to be selfish adults. Why learn to be otherwise? It could be argued that individuals who take the time to think about it learn that enlightened self-interest is a greater survival tool than mere selfishness and brute force. Thus, we form social groups (tribes), and a collection of social groups can become a nation.

 

A tribe (or nation), by its nature, is composed of people who can empathize with others. Without empathy, the fabric of the social group unravels. So, it could be argued that empathy, in all its various forms, is one of the strongest survival traits of all, since the weak members are protected and nurtured by the strong - at least to a point, but it's a point at which those same weak individuals would have long since perished. In times of plenty, the social fabric of any group weakens, since individuals can better fend for themselves. Increase the cost of survival, and the fabric strengthens.

 

Throughout history, when a society is threatened with destruction, its members turn to the shamans for understanding and petitioning of the gods (eg: "No atheists in a foxhole"). Whatever nature the group consensus imbues the universe with, with its accompanying rituals and commandments, becomes the unimpeachable reality for its members. Any hint of rebellion threatens the survival of the tribe, and cannot be allowed. That's where religion gets its strength, why multitudes can be slaughtered in the name of (any) religion, and why attempting to intellectually convince tribal members of the folly of believing in a particularly strong set of rituals and theologies is a waste of time.

 

At any rate, that's how it looks from here.

 

Rob

 

From a sociology of religion perspective, you are absolutely correct.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

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I do think "But for the grace of God, there go I" is a uniquely Christian expression. It is this knowledge, that makes us tolerant if it's truly a heart-felt belief.

Makes you tolerant? How lovely to be tolerant of people that are inferior, and not worthy of the grace of God. This is nothing more than telling yourself, and others like you, that God plays favorites. "But for the grace of God, there go I" is a saying that reeks of people claiming special status above others. You know, the "there go I" part that is actually a living person that by some fault unknown to themselves, they are the "not" chosen person. The one that can't make the claim, "but for the grace of God, there go I." There is no difference in saying that and thanking God for allowing you to be one of his favorties.

 

I understand that most Christians don't recognize what things like feeling blessed and giving thanks for what you have is actually enforcing...an 'I am better in God's eyes' view of others. It may promote tolerance for the less-blessed, but it will never promote understanding and empathy because in your eye, you are chosen by God to be blessed. In order to promote understanding and empathy, you have to recognize that that could be you if your life settings would have been the same as that person. A true understanding knows that something could happen that could put you in the same place as they are in now. And in order to understand that, you have to understand that God doesn't play favorites and God won't stop something from happening that could put you in the same place as the other person. No matter how much you pray, God isn't going to feed you and starve others. God's grace won't pick you over another.

 

Think...and then explain to me how this saying isn't saying what I wrote.

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Think...

 

Don't expect much of that; if he has Jebus on his side, who will stand against him? :crazy:

 

Rad, I've refuted everything you've said. So has most everyone else here. If you don't want to see it or accept the utter scourge your cult has been on human society, it's your problem. It's not as if your demented religion will have anymore "Great Awakenings" given the current level of human knowledge.

 

Who ended the Salem Witch Trials? What a stupid question. Who started them? Xians. And who keeps them from returning? Not the predictably intolerant rantings of mainstream Xian leaders or their Jebus-obsessed followers. Freethinkers, Pagans, and liberal Xians are those who keep traditional Xian evils from happening again. There'd be more witch-trials and more Inquisitions if your ilk ever regained control.

 

I'm sure you'll stamp your feet and insist the Xians who killed anyone for Xianity weren't True Believers™ but such tactics only underscore your own ignorance of what you support. There is more blood on Xianity's hands than you care to realize - because you'd kick Jebus to the curb in a heartbeat if you did realize it.

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