My Wife Asked Me More Details This Morning

[mick]

It was interesting. It was positive in some ways. I shared with her some verses of the OT cruelty of Yahweh. She said they don't bother her at all. But the good news is that she definately HAD to have got the gist that this is more than being "mad at God" for some human reason. I told her faltly that the cruelty of Yahweh is not compatible with an Omni-benevolent God in my opinion. I tiold her that I had shared all this with a common freind we have from college, and that HE was swayed greatly by it right now. SHe made a funny face, sincerely surprised that our friend would be swayed. The worse the brainwashing, the harder it is for these people.

 

Ironically it was still not even the littlest tip of the iceberg. I told her about an 18 year old fundy Christian young man I talked to on-line that told me he would "kill an infant with a sword if God told him to do so, and would abosolutely no problem with it, would even feel good about obeying him". Though I was already gone, conversations like that help me realize that Fundyism is a cult, and it cannot be from a good god.

 

Funny, now.. when I start to doubt that I could be wrong about leaving, THEN I open the Bible, and peruse the passages I have memorized that are disgraceful. (like Leviticus 20) The Bible actually rather qyuickly reinforces my unbelief. LOL!!!!

[Lycorth]

Nothing drives a person away from Xianity like Babble study

 

Glad to see your wife is interested in your beliefs. Hopefully, you've made a good impression and given her food for thought.

[mick]

I also mentioned the fact that handicapped people of various types were not allowed into the temple because they would defile it. I think that bothered her a little bit, for like a second. She kind of downtroddenly said, "that was probably symbolic". I said, "well, it was not symballiic for the poor handicapped person, it was a real rule".

 

On another note: Does anyone know the scripture or scriptures that actually sau that handicapped people could not go int he temple? I hope I was not wrong about that one. I'm pretty sure I have seen that one in multiple places.

 

ANother weird thing. Now that she is like "Tell me, Tell me why youo don't believe. Keep it coming, what else, I want to know". I'm more like caught off guard I'm like "uhhh, duhhh, well... he kills babies , and uhhhhh". I'm like tougne tied. I usually great at talking about it and making a good argument, but for some reason I get all flustered when she is giving me freedom to blast away. I think is partly because I don't really know what it would be like if she lost all faith. She has told me before she would not to live at all if it were not for Christ.

 

Nothing drives a person away from Xianity like Babble study

 

Glad to see your wife is interested in your beliefs. Hopefully, you've made a good impression and given her food for thought.

[Lycorth]

On another note: Does anyone know the scripture or scriptures that actually sau that handicapped people could not go int he temple? I hope I was not wrong about that one. I'm pretty sure I have seen that one in multiple places.

 

From the Book of Leviticus, provided by the Skeptic's Annotated Babble:

 

21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,

21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,

21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;

21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

 

Also, if she's keen on net-based info, point her this way. I've gathered all my best anti-xian links as well as my personal ex-timony there. The links she may find handy - and you also, perhaps.

[mick]

You know, I am almost teared up when I just read that. (Even though I had seen that before)

 

The pain of this religion is amazing to me. WHY?? can't a handicapped come "neigh". So mean. I think of how nice my church was to this poor blind handicapped girl whose parents always broguth her. They treated her like she was the church 'all star'. There is another family that brings a girl in a wheel chair. What is the point of the OT law keeping them out? Disgusting and inconsistent!

 

On another note: Does anyone know the scripture or scriptures that actually sau that handicapped people could not go int he temple? I hope I was not wrong about that one. I'm pretty sure I have seen that one in multiple places.

 

From the Book of Leviticus, provided by the Skeptic's Annotated Babble:

 

21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,

21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,

21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;

21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

 

Also, if she's keen on net-based info, point her this way. I've gathered all my best anti-xian links as well as my personal ex-timony there. The links she may find handy - and you also, perhaps.

[truth]

Wow, I have never read that verse before. I think I need to start reading the OT.

I mean why would someone with a blemish or disability, hurt the divine god just by offering or coming near? It doesn't make any sense.

[Everglaze]

It's probably due to favouritism, which "God" rejects, yet does it anyway. It's just like how he "hated" Esau, but loved Jacob.

[Lycorth]

Laws like that arise out of cults which take a negative view on humanity, like all the Abrahamic ones, as well as cults which are obsessed with the notion of "purity".

 

Xians today treat the handicapped nicely because they have a natural understanding of compassion. They don't follow the Babble because most of them don't bother to read it to begin with. If they did, most of them would end up like us, choosing compassion and common sense over Jebus the Jerk.

 

And since Jebus claims that he and the Father are one, and all Xians believe that Jebus and Yahooweh and the Holy Spurt are one and the same, Jebus is guilty of all the atrocities of the Old Testament. Otherwise, the Xian god is some sort of schitzo with multiple personalities. That is why Jebus is the biggest scumbag of all.

[Kurari]

Well, that's excellent to hear you're making progress mick, and that she's listening to you.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about your wife's life if she deconverts. I made the same claims about being unable to live without Jesus. I imagine if I suddenly lost my faith all at once, it might be true, but since it was gradual and had time to sink in, I'm fine.

[riverbank]

 

ANother weird thing. Now that she is like "Tell me, Tell me why youo don't believe. Keep it coming, what else, I want to know". I'm more like caught off guard I'm like "uhhh, duhhh, well... he kills babies , and uhhhhh". I'm like tougne tied. I usually great at talking about it and making a good argument, but for some reason I get all flustered when she is giving me freedom to blast away. I think is partly because I don't really know what it would be like if she lost all faith. She has told me before she would not to live at all if it were not for Christ.

 

 

yeah, I can understand that. I was like that, I said that if I didn't have Jesus, then I'd commit suicide. And I would personally advise you to be careful for that reason. Tricky situation though, I have to say I'm very thankful I didn't marry a christian.

[mwc]

Wow, I have never read that verse before. I think I need to start reading the OT.

I mean why would someone with a blemish or disability, hurt the divine god just by offering or coming near? It doesn't make any sense.

It was a common belief in ancient religions that the impure would taint the pure. So "god" (and all things related to him), being pure, cannot come into contact with anything that is impure without being tainted. Think of a clean shirt coming into contact with dirty clothes. The clean shirt gets dirty but the dirty clothes don't clean. This is why all the ritual bathing and purity rituals everyone had to go through simply to tough certain objects or to go certain places (the rituals used outside the temples had other purposes but that's another point altogether).

 

Anyhow, this is where we get the more modern notion that "god" cannot stand sin or be in its presence.

 

The sick part of all this is when you read that "god" is the very one responsible for making these folks the way the were. He made the "defective" and prevented them from coming near to him.

 

To avoid the wonderful trap laid by all xians I give you two sets of verses. One from the OT and another from the NT.

 

Exodus 4

4:11

And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

YHWH himself tells Moses that he makes people defective.

 

John 9

9:1

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

9:2

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

9:3

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

9:4

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

First thing to note is that jesus agrees with the disciples that it is "sin" that makes people blind...but not in this case. In this case it is YHWH. The reason? Simply for the sole purpose that jesus can heal him and look good.

 

So a man was made blind all his life so jesus could wander by and heal him. This guy was simply a pawn in some game dreamed up before his life began. He could not visit the temple (the ultimate privilage) because of this. He had to live in the streets like an animal. Of course, the story ends with the guy worshiping jesus and the Pharisees getting a much needed lesson.

 

mwc

[Mongo]

Excellent news Mick.

 

When she peppers you with questions, I'd suggest sticking to a couple basic concepts that you are really comfortable with.

 

A scan through the topic list should reveal some of the most salient issues. My favorites:

Why doesn't god forgive without a sacrifice? If ungodly people are capable of such love why isn't god?

If Hell is a real place, how could god keep that information hidden for so long? (Jews, from their interpretation of scripture, don't believe hell!! How could such a critical element be so obscure? How can that be?

Discuss the Sermon on the Mount, considered by some to be the finest text on morality that exists? Really??!!! Quite frankly, I find that it is a sick mantra of victim theology. I reject it as being emotionally dangerous and damaging.

 

I would stick to moral issues. Technical stuff like the absurdness of the Ark are sideline issues and can be mentioned but ultimately don't seem to make much of an impact on fundies.

 

Maybe you should continue to read the bible and as you do, bring up moral conflicts and issues to your wife.

 

While I think the next suggestion is powerful it seems to me that many people have a hard time grasping this. Discuss how the bible is a document intended to control, unify and subjugate a people for the purpose of making the jews the dominant political entity of the area. Read from a political perspective, the bible makes a lot of sense until you get to the NT. At that point, myth Jesus seems to be staging a social revolution.

 

Mongo

[chefranden]

Baby killing genocide. In this incedent God is punishing the Amalekites for something that happened 10 generations or about 400 years in the past. You could point out that this is completely contradictory to Ezekiel 18 where in God claims that no man dies for the sin of his father, let alone a multi-greatgrandfather. God is arbitrary and inconsistent.

 

1 Samuel 15

1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

 

Ezekiel 18:19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.