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Debate: Scotter Vs Omniscient On The Divinity And Validity Of Islam


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Omni,

 

Thank you for your participation in this debate. I ask God that we can grow in wisdom as a fruition from the debate.

 

First off, a reading assignment:

 

The Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/catherine/dialog.toc.html

 

Preface:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/catherine/dialog.i.html

 

Quoted from Preface:

This work was dictated by Saint Catherine of Siena during a state of ecstasy while in dialogue with God the Father.

 

Information about St. Catherine of Siena

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03447a.htm (from Catholic source)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Siena (from general source)

 

I hope the information is helpful to you and the readers too.

 

Omni if you have the time, you are welcome to read through the Dialogue from the beginning to the end, or simply click on certain topics in the e-book that interests you. The debate is not all about St. Catherine of Siena, but since you invited me to ask question first, I shall start with this particular Christian mystic. We might possibly have wide range of topics and areas to discuss on throughout this debate.

 

I would like to ask about your comments, impressions about this book, and about St. Catherine’s revelations. Is two weeks’ time good enough for you? Certainly you can give me your feedback even earlier than two weeks.

 

And I shall construct my questions according to your comments.

 

In citing this Christian source, I do not say I am a Christian or not, a Hindu or not. In this debate thread I might present to you the resources that I have access to.

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Dear Scotter;

 

In citing this Christian source, I do not say I am a Christian or not, a Hindu or not. In this debate thread I might present to you the resources that I have access to.

 

Well, would it not be more beneficial if we two assume ourselves as neither christian nor Muslim / hindu or any particular religion's person??

I think tht a debate which would be started with neutral viewpoints and way of consideration would surely lead to the staright path otherwise, we may loose the milestones. We can keep aside our personal beliefs whatever we have during this debate time.

 

I also happily accept to discuss wide range of topics and surely i would give my best available time to read the links completely, not partially. As the complete knowledge of the topic would allow me to discuss the issues in depth with you. I would be making a reply at my earliest.

 

Regards

A well wisher

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Dear Scotter;

 

My impression of the passages is;

 

1. Many parts of the letters do conciliate with the teachings of Quran.

 

2. Some passages contradict vividly with the Quranic teachings; those one which recognise Jesus as a true begotten Son.

 

3. St. Catherine could be a mystic and friend of God provided she would not have written those contradictory passages.

 

Any Questions are more then welcome;

 

Regards

A well wisher

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  • 2 weeks later...

Scotter seems to be contradictory to himself: debating with Scott, Inspecto & Christians about Jesus’ Messiahship; and present to a monotheistic Muslim friend Omni about the Trinitarian revelations in the Catholic tradition, in which it was revealed that Jesus is the Begotten Son of God.

 

Scotter is not so much debating on the technical position of dogmas, but is debating on the fundamentalism of beliefs. God offers more than fundamentalism, in fact, God and fundamentalism are incompatible – God is unlimited, fundamentalism is limited, because fundamentalism limits itself by it nature and definition. God is infinite, fundamentalism is finite.

 

Although I believe Omni being fundamental in his beliefs, I stress that Omni is not fundamentalistic in his attitude, he is polite and gentle.

 

Omni, your basic point is the certain revelations to St. Catherine contradict with the Quran, revealed to Muhammad e.g. Trinity. Refer to my first post the ccel.org book link, If readers do a search with the word Trinity, the contents of “Dialogue” with Trinity-related revelations will be listed.

 

In the least I hope I managed to convey to you that the Catholic Church has her own revelations traditions.

 

Now do we (I mean Ex-C readers as a whole, including Omni and I) see the relativity of the positions here where one is standing ?

 

Say in a rural Italian village, a faithful Catholic grandma might have heard of Muhummad and Islam, but she would stick to her Catholic faith because in the Dialogue of Catherine of Siena, an Italian, God’s communication to Catherine affirmed her faith in the Trinity and the other Catholic doctrines.

 

And in a remote Pakistani village, not sure if the villagers have heard of St. Catherine of Siena and her Dialogue with God, they will stick to the Quran and strict monotheism because they firmly believe the Quran is the Word of God.

 

Omni, from you standpoint based on the Quran, a revelation from God, the Dialogue is not acceptable to you; but the Italian grandma’s standpoint based on St. Catherine’s Dialogue, a revelation from God, the Quran is not right to her. Each party firmly believe his/her tradition has revelations from God.

 

The timeline would also add to the thoughts of the discussion:

Muhammad in 610, at around the age of 40, received revelations from Angel Gabriel, thus from God.

St. Catherine of Siena began to receive her visions in 1370.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Dear Scotter;

 

Greetings, firstly i would like to apologise for the late reply as i had been highly engaged in the holy festival of Eid-Ul-azha.

 

As regards the post is concerned, you have raised a very obvious point that a person usually sticks to the teachings and viewpoints of their own tradition and geographical culture. But, we could see it other way round also. Like, the standard teachings of morailty are almost similar everywhere regardless of geo-cultural boundries. Truth is appreciated in the east as well as in the west, similarly violence is condemned in west as well as in east. Therefore, there is a set of some values which are universal. In the same line, the religious teachings fall. These teachings provide some basic values which are universal and similar in every religion. The only thing which differentiates a reilgion is the concept of God. It basically depends upon how a person personally percieves it by their personal experiences but as a matter of fact, this concept should not be derived by mere personal feelings and experiences, rather it should be based upon authentic scriptures which are considered to be revealed by the divine. One should remind this matter also that God never violates his own constituted natural laws and he himself has created logic therefore he does not committ any action or does not promote any concept that appears to be purely illogical and irrational.

 

Looking for your response.

 

Regards

A well wisher

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Omni, thank you for your response. After introducing to you one of the Catholic revelations, here are more that I think you may be interested for the sake of our discussion. The subject of apparition and devotion is Jesus, whom Catholics and mainstream Christians believe he is God (Trinity). Within those revelations you would read that Jesus identifies himself as God, the Divine Sonship in the Holy Trinity.

 

- Hildegard von Bingen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

“Scivas”

http://www.amazon.com/Hildegard-Bingen-Sci...y/dp/0809131307

 

- Teresa of Avila “The Interior Castle” (The Seven Mansions) online text

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/index.htm

 

Fast track: Seven Mansions Chapter 1

go to Point 9 about the “Blessed Trinity”

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic29.htm

 

- Gertrude the Great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_the_Great

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06534a.htm

 

“Life and Revelations of St. Gertrude the Great” online text

http://my.homewithgod.com/gertrude/

This is how the book looks like:

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Revelations-St-...t/dp/0895556995

 

- Julian of Norwich “Revelations of Divine Love” online text

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations.toc.html

 

- Anne Catherine Emmerich – “Dolorous Passion of Jesus Christ”, 19th Century revelations and dictations

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/pjc/index.htm

This one is thick. Notice the parallel that Sister Emmerich is illiterate.

This adds to our discussion in addition to the Trinity (Christian) - Pure Monotheism (Islam) revelations dogmatics: Jesus being crucified on the Cross (Catholic revelation from Sr. Anne Catherine Emmerich, corresponding with Judas being crucified on the Cross (Quranic revelation)

 

- Josefa Menendez – “Way of Divine Love”, published 1938, online text

http://www.newjerusalem.com/josefa.htm

http://www.newjerusalem.com/appeal.htm

 

- Sister Faustina

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=510

“Divine Mercy in My Soul”

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596141107/

 

I have tried to locate the online editions of their works so you can access from Pakistan. The others I managed to include certain links and amazon.com books, although I don’t know if you can order those books and ship them to Pakistan due to the religious environment, if you are interested. So I hope the book descriptions help. If you live in a big city like Karachi, Islamabad, I hope the universities’ libraries may have some of those Christian collections.

 

If you have the time to do at least digest readings of their revelations works, that would help our discussion. Even better if you read all of them.

 

This is not to say I am a Catholic or not, a Hindu or not (I have mentioned to you.) And I am not evangelizing to you Omni. I am actually fine that you choose and stay Muslim. That you know about my position with your faith before we get to more discussion.

 

So it is not an one-to-one revelation comparison of St. Catherine of Siena and that of Muhammad.

 

In terms of authenticity, a word that you articulated, I have comments on two connotations:

 

1. Again we go back to the issue of relativity of "authenticity". Just as billions of Muslims believe the Quran as authentic; the Catholic Church and billions of Catholics do take those revelations from the cited mystics as authentic. However, a Catholic is not obligated to read them. (And there are more, I haven’t included the (Catholic) Marian apparitions in which the subject of apparition of the Virgin Mary, who identifies herself as Mother of God and identifies God as the Holy Trinity, nor have I Included links before Hildegard von Bingen. If you like me to include those Marian links, I shall be glad to.) And I hesitate to add the non-mainstreams such as Meister Eckhart, Jakob Boehme, and Emmanuel Swedenborg.

 

2. For the lists of Catholic revelations from Jesus to the Christian mystics, you have the task of pondering for yourself, and perhaps for the readers who are interested in this thread, that ALL the above cited revelations, chronologically happened within the Catholic Church and establishing her own revelation traditions, are NOT authentic; and only Prophet Muhammad’s revelation, happened one time in early 600+CE, is authentic. Your task is not to disprove them (the Catholic revelations) to me though – as mentioned, I am not evangelizing to you, and I am fine that you stay Muslim and delighted that you are being a pious, respectful Muslim.

 

3. I am not suggesting whatsoever a tone of superiority over the cited Catholic works. I have read and admired great classical and modern Islamic works such as the Hadith, Maariful Quran commentary, works by Al Gazzali, Rumi, Professor Hasan’s History of Islam, MM Sharif’s History of Muslim Philosophy, Iqbal, Bawa. I live in an East Coast metropolitan, quite a number of Indian/Pakistani-Islamic publications are available here.

 

I am not asking if you are a Muslim, what would you believe, because you ARE a Muslim. I am asking if, if you are a practising Catholic, what would you believe?

 

Feel free to reply to this post anytime.

I have more to put in for the next discussion, this post within this thread is for you to peruse the other Catholic revelations materials as I work on my comments for your latest post.

 

.

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