God Owes His Existence To Technology

[Antlerman]

Survival is the sole true purpose of life, not love, not brotherhood, not world peace. Morality is a luxury that we are allowed to derive benefits from because we are not fighting for the sole scrap of meat on the ground to feed a large group of people.

 

As man developed tools to aide in getting food, there was more time to think, to consider, pondering ways to harness the power of tools in a society, and morality was born to govern a system of cooperation. As man's technology increased, more leisure time came and allowed for consideration and thought of how things work, what made it rain, what brought the winds, and so man created God. God owes his existence to man's technology. Without our technologies, we wouldn't consider such a luxury item as a god.

 

God is not necessary for survival. If technology vanished, and there was one scrap of meat to eat, the structures of civilization would begin to fall aside, giving way to its ultimate end until we were left with the essence of all life - eating.

 

(I just had lunch and it got me thinking of this again )

[Fweethawt]

When does sex come into play here?

 

Ya gotta have sex.

[Antlerman]

When does sex come into play here?

 

Ya gotta have sex.

It was implied in survival (if talking about the species). Sex for fun however is a luxury, like wine and a god's love.

[Guest xyz3]

hmm interesting theory... way for insights gained over lunch I don't know if I really would agree with it though... because if you look at the more non-agricultural and tribal hunting/gathering native americans, they had a deeply spiritual understanding of the world which included a sort of boarderline monotheism (the 'great spirit')... and from what I've read of it, many of their beliefs come from living so close to nature and the struggle for survival...

 

your theory could probably still account for a lot of human religion and ethics, but I don't think it could account for all of it

[currentchristian]

As man developed tools to aide in getting food, there was more time to think, to consider, pondering ways to harness the power of tools in a society, and morality was born to govern a system of cooperation. As man's technology increased, more leisure time came and allowed for consideration and thought of how things work, what made it rain, what brought the winds, and so man created God. God owes his existence to man's technology. Without our technologies, we wouldn't consider such a luxury item as a god.

 

Certainly true for institutionalized religion (with special buildings, priests, shrines, etc.). These things are luxuries. The Israelites didn't have a mobile Tent of Meeting until being freed from Egypt and they didn't have a Temple for a few hundred years after that, not until David brought about some stability, peace and prosperity in the land.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

 

Survival is the sole true purpose of life, not love, not brotherhood, not world peace. Morality is a luxury that we are allowed to derive benefits from because we are not fighting for the sole scrap of meat on the ground to feed a large group of people.

 

Interestingly, as we modernized and our technology and advanced science allowed us to manufacture atomic and nuclear weapons, cruise missiles, etc., our need for the luxuries of love, brotherhood and world peace became essential for human survival. President Kennedy said: "Together we shall save our planet or together we shall perish in its flames." Einstein said something like this: "We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount."

 

You got me thinkin', Antlerman.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

[Lycorth]

Well put, Antlerman.

 

I know that when I sit around and ponder, I can create some unusual things. When I don't have to worry about accomplishing a task, I have the kind of time on my hands that, were I an ancient ancestor many thousands of years ago, could've allowed me to see a god in this natural phenomena or that.

 

Heh, gives new meaning to the phrase "idle hands are the devil's workshop"

[Antlerman]

hmm interesting theory... way for insights gained over lunch I don't know if I really would agree with it though... because if you look at the more non-agricultural and tribal hunting/gathering native americans, they had a deeply spiritual understanding of the world which included a sort of boarderline monotheism (the 'great spirit')... and from what I've read of it, many of their beliefs come from living so close to nature and the struggle for survival...

 

your theory could probably still account for a lot of human religion and ethics, but I don't think it could account for all of it

The tribal hunter/gatherer was using technology. Their tools made gathering food easier. They had societies that would sit around the campfire and look up into the stars and think, rather than foraging all day along the ground for bits of food, only stopping at night to sleep and hide from predators. Their technology made life easier and allowed them time to contemplate. Their technology paved the way for God to be considered.

 

Survival is the sole true purpose of life, not love, not brotherhood, not world peace. Morality is a luxury that we are allowed to derive benefits from because we are not fighting for the sole scrap of meat on the ground to feed a large group of people.

 

Interestingly, as we modernized and our technology and advanced science allowed us to manufacture atomic and nuclear weapons, cruise missiles, etc., our need for the luxuries of love, brotherhood and world peace became essential for human survival. President Kennedy said: "Together we shall save our planet or together we shall perish in its flames." Einstein said something like this: "We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount."

 

You got me thinkin', Antlerman.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

You’ve got me thinking too. Man creates tools to ease his search for food. Man takes his natural instinct of greed to ensure his own survival, and learns to set it aside for the gains that come to him through cooperation. Social order is born, rules of conduct are established, and greed is shunned as it works against order. This stage is seen within the animal kingdom today. With increased leisure time he considers things like his own existence and projects this self awareness to his surroundings as an extension of himself and discovers God. God then becomes the unseen force of those common values of his society, and is used to legislate rules of conduct.

 

Man’s greed however is always present as part of our survival instinct. Though we pass down the social instinct through generations of behaviors, the individual instinct for survival goes back 350 million years. The majority in the society find the benefit of cooperation of greater advantage to them, to move more slowly together towards self-benefit, yet those who act on individual greed to self-benefit who violate social order, though working off the same selfish instinct as everyone else, is abandoning “God”, the symbol of social order. Society demonizies this anti-social behavior calling greed “evil” etc. In reality greed drives everyone and is not inherently evil. I'ts how we act in a group that is good or bad for that society.

 

Those who are greedy and clamor for power by bypassing social cooperation also take advantage of tools. They build weapons which leads to other tribes building weapons, each to either take stores of others, or defend against their own stores being taken by them. They set aside their own rules of social conduct to those in other tribes by seeing them as not true humans. They are heathens, savages, the enemy, foreigners, and any other term that allows them to see them as not part of their own social order, thus allowing them to abandon their own sense of morality towards them. All this to serve the greedy who have grabbed power at the top and promised fruits to their soldiers. Say hello to the warlord.

 

The problem today is that we have still not truly learned to see other tribes as humans, and apply the rules of social order of our own tribes to them equally.

 

God is a tool used to promote social orders born in the ancient world. In the modern world the symbol of God is weakened across cultural borders and is proving incapable of uniting all tribes into a single morality. Jehovah began as a local deity amongst many, but was later the only deity of that tribe, then as the tribe moved into the greater world through foreign exile, that god become universal and transcended the borders of its original homeland. He evolved into the cultures of other societies and being popular in the Roman world, then naturally absorbed into the early Christian movement, which itself then later become the vehicle of the Roman Empire preserving itself and sending its legacy out into the entire Western world in the last days of it secular control.

 

He has continued to evolve and be adapted to societies throughout the ages since then, to the present day struggles of the Christian faith trying to again define itself in a modern world with mass communication of ideas and competeing beliefs.

 

The question is can man save himself by finding a common social order governing cooperation in a global society with weakening borders? Will the idea of God work in a modern world? Or will we find some other uniting commonality that governs our desires to cooperate? Or will we just destroy all social order and cooperation through unleasing the force of our tools of self-interested greed of the elected warlords and go back to foraging the forest floors, never contemplate society or God again?

[Fweethawt]

Or will we just destroy all social order and cooperation through unleasing the force of our tools of self-interested greed of the elected warlords and go back to foraging the forest floors, never contemplate society or God again?

A return to Eden, eh?

[Antlerman]

Or will we just destroy all social order and cooperation through unleasing the force of our tools of self-interested greed of the elected warlords and go back to foraging the forest floors, never contemplate society or God again?

A return to Eden, eh?

I like this. So when the Lord came walking in during the cool of the day, did that signal the beginning of the end?

[Fweethawt]

Or will we just destroy all social order and cooperation through unleasing the force of our tools of self-interested greed of the elected warlords and go back to foraging the forest floors, never contemplate society or God again?

A return to Eden, eh?

I like this. So when the Lord came walking in during the cool of the day, did that signal the beginning of the end?

No. I think is has something to do with when Woman (Eve) realized that she could get Man (Adam) to do anything she wanted just by shakin' that ass and jigglin'em boobies. Once he realized that he was wrapped around her finger, he didn't like it. In turn, he redirected his sexual energies toward the developement of his technologies.

 

[Vigile]

Maslow's Heirarchy

[wonderer]

I think if you study the history of religion, you will find that techgnology has very little to do with it. Religion owes its existence to fear of the unknown.

 

 

Rob

[Antlerman]

I think if you study the history of religion, you will find that techgnology has very little to do with it. Religion owes its existence to fear of the unknown.

 

 

Rob

We fuel our fears by dwelling on them. Where did the time to ruminate on these and come up with explanations for them come from? Leisure time? Where did leisure time come from? Tools? Get rid of tools and there won't be time to devote to these sorts of luxuries.

 

I consider a spear technology. It's a designed and more efficient tool, which creates more free time for man to come up with things like religion to deal with his fears.

[Vigile]

I agree with you on this AM. In fact the going theory is that until man contained fire, he did not contemplate a deeper meaning beyond the here and now. Fire provided the added luxury of sitting and pondering.

[currentchristian]

The question is can man save himself by finding a common social order governing cooperation in a global society with weakening borders? Will the idea of God work in a modern world? Or will we find some other uniting commonality that governs our desires to cooperate? Or will we just destroy all social order and cooperation through unleasing the force of our tools of self-interested greed of the elected warlords and go back to foraging the forest floors, never contemplate society or God again?

 

I think the Scandanavian countries have largely abandoned a belief in a God, and the next generation there likely will altogether. They have "gods," of course, but not "God." Their social welfare system is an equalizer, that's good. But it also crushes creativity and incentive as there's great desire for uniformity (that's what socialism in the ideal is about) and the taxation rate is quite high. To the extent that the elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, universal education, universal health care, peace and liberty are the only aims of this life, the Scandanavians are doing quite well.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

[Legion]

In fact the going theory is that until man contained fire, he did not contemplate a deeper meaning beyond the here and now. Fire provided the added luxury of sitting and pondering.

This seems plausible to me.

[Vigile]

Well, I'm not going to throw too much support to a social economy since I'm too selfish to share my hard earned income.

 

That said, I disagree with some of your points in regard to European socialism. My understanding is that socialism in Holand has actually lent to creativity and the exploration of the arts and literature. This is due to the fact that most have the luxury of not spending their lives in constant toil and the stress that the working man gets to enjoy in an overtly lasez faire economy. The documentary Sex, Drugs, and Democracy made a decent case for this argument.

 

And, from my own experiences living in Italy, I would say that society there is far more free to explore their creative sides, to enjoy the theater and other arts while indulging in many of lifes small pleasures. They don't have a social economy on the scale of the Dutch or the Scandinavians, but they have much broader social programs than the US does.

 

My take was that the social economy afforded most Italians only one tv per household, compared to one per room that many Americans have, but the strong middle class and lack of stress aided them in maintaining a strong social culture; which I would argue has been in severe decline in the states for years now.

[Antlerman]

I think the Scandanavian countries have largely abandoned a belief in a God, and the next generation there likely will altogether. They have "gods," of course, but not "God." Their social welfare system is an equalizer, that's good. But it also crushes creativity and incentive as there's great desire for uniformity (that's what socialism in the ideal is about) and the taxation rate is quite high. To the extent that the elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, universal education, universal health care, peace and liberty are the only aims of this life, the Scandanavians are doing quite well.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

Socialism may stifle creativity perhaps in the area of technological advances, because the motivating factor of competition for wealth is not there, but I would say in the area of art, philosophy, and the humanities there will be a definite increase. War is also a major motivator for creativity in technological advances. But war likewise does not increase philosophy. There's no benefit to the armies. Kill and destroy are actions that are not aided by meaning of life questions.

 

So that said, "God" in a society that is at war, or one that spends its time struggling against poverty and oppression has a very different purpose, and a very different face than what may be adopted in a country where he serves as different purpose for the people. Rather than a rally point around the common tribal deity in a nationalistic sense, or a symbol of hope to the desperate looking for salvation from their daily misery, God would be a more symbolic symbol of the higher aspirations of a united society that strives for greater personal growth. God is a symbol of what we aspire to be in our humanity.

 

This is why I find traditional Christianity misplaced in industrialized nations. It teaches that man is evil and fallen, depraved and viewed as filth before God. That approach of motivation may have worked in primitive times to coerce social conformity, but in a modern humanistic world, this language runs contrary to our sense of self, and has been show to be detrimental psychologically to the individual. Individualism was irrelevant for the most part in old days, but it is not today.

 

This too is the result of increased leisure time thanks to technologies and the tool of social systems. So if man found God through leisure long ago and fashioned him to meet the social issues of those days, then though increased leisure time will man abandon God or refashion him to speak to today's social issues? I would say the tendency is towards the latter, but we may be seeing a decrease of God in those nations because of the deficiencies of the religious system to be able to adjust itself and offer something meaningful.

 

If a religion can come along and speak to the modern world, do you think humans won't respond as they have since the first thoughts about the transcendent crossed their minds before the first campfires in the early forests?

 

 

(BTW, this was my avitar for the last year before my current minister one)

[currentchristian]

Well, I'm not going to throw too much support to a social economy since I'm too selfish to share my hard earned income.

 

That said, I disagree with some of your points in regard to European socialism. My understanding is that socialism in Holand has actually lent to creativity and the exploration of the arts and literature. This is due to the fact that most have the luxury of not spending their lives in constant toil and the stress that the working man gets to enjoy in an overtly lasez faire economy. The documentary Sex, Drugs, and Democracy made a decent case for this argument.

 

And, from my own experiences living in Italy, I would say that society there is far more free to explore their creative sides, to enjoy the theater and other arts while indulging in many of lifes small pleasures. They don't have a social economy on the scale of the Dutch or the Scandinavians, but they have much broader social programs than the US does.

 

My take was that the social economy afforded most Italians only one tv per household, compared to one per room that many Americans have, but the strong middle class and lack of stress aided them in maintaining a strong social culture; which I would argue has been in severe decline in the states for years now.

 

Good clarification. The creativity that's stifled by the socialism of Scandanavian countries is money-making creativity as taxes are so high. The arts and letters, on the other hand, can flourish when we aren't chasing Almighty Dollar.

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts

[currentchristian]

Socialism may stifle creativity perhaps in the area of technological advances, because the motivating factor of competition for wealth is not there, but I would say in the area of art, philosophy, and the humanities there will be a definite increase. War is also a major motivator for creativity in technological advances. But war likewise does not increase philosophy. There's no benefit to the armies. Kill and destroy are actions that are not aided by meaning of life questions.

 

So that said, "God" in a society that is at war, or one that spends its time struggling against poverty and oppression has a very different purpose, and a very different face than what may be adopted in a country where he serves as different purpose for the people. Rather than a rally point around the common tribal deity in a nationalistic sense, or a symbol of hope to the desperate looking for salvation from their daily misery, God would be a more symbolic symbol of the higher aspirations of a united society that strives for greater personal growth. God is a symbol of what we aspire to be in our humanity.

 

This is why I find traditional Christianity misplaced in industrialized nations. It teaches that man is evil and fallen, depraved and viewed as filth before God. That approach of motivation may have worked in primitive times to coerce social conformity, but in a modern humanistic world, this language runs contrary to our sense of self, and has been show to be detrimental psychologically to the individual. Individualism was irrelevant for the most part in old days, but it is not today.

 

This too is the result of increased leisure time thanks to technologies and the tool of social systems. So if man found God through leisure long ago and fashioned him to meet the social issues of those days, then though increased leisure time will man abandon God or refashion him to speak to today's social issues? I would say the tendency is towards the latter, but we may be seeing a decrease of God in those nations because of the deficiencies of the religious system to be able to adjust itself and offer something meaningful.

 

If a religion can come along and speak to the modern world, do you think humans won't respond as they have since the first thoughts about the transcendent crossed their minds before the first campfires in the early forests?

 

Excellent points. You are right that a religion that teaches that we are filth won't work any longer. (It was always misplaced in my view because we are "in the image of God" and "a little lower than the angels, crowned with honor and glory.") A religion that speaks to the modern world in a modern way will find a resonate response from humanity. I think we are beginning to see this reform happen. Some in the 1960's thought God was dead in the minds of many and soon to be in the minds of all. But with the freedom of the 1960's (for women, for African-Americans, for gays, etc.) came the freedom to think about all sorts of things including religion. I see today, even among evangelicals, young people who are very different from their elders. They have a new understanding of Christianity. I have much hope that these young people, exemplified by alternative Christian bands like The Waiting, The Kry, Audio Adrenaline, Delirious, will reshape the old story. In the process, they will throw off some of the nonsense that has accrued. I hope so.

 

By the way, Antlerman, is the avatar you now use a real picture or a staged one?

 

-currentchristian in massachusetts