Slamming the Christians

[chefranden]

I mostly agree with Eponymic. I don't like to see Christians flamed immediately upon arrival. I don't always know the proper etiquette of every where I go, and I appreciate people cutting me some slack. However, after a bit it is best to go ahead and call a YoYo a YoYo.

[Mr. Neil]

I always give them a couple posts before I start nailing them.

 

 

 

I officially lost patience with MacGyver when he announced that he knows of no inconsistancies in the Bible. I mean... COME ON! Don't give me that shit! If you haven't noticed any inconsistancies in the Bible, then you haven't read the Bible.

 

And then when he announced that his "Christian Goggles" weren't going to let him see any errors, I was like, "This guy is toast."

 

[Asimov]

p.s. If you still want me to address the stuff I skipped over, please say so & I will.

 

I'd like a response to my post.

[Amethyst]

I think it's like any conversation with a normal person. If they treat you with respect, treat them likewise. If they start being rude, close-minded, and teating you like a piece of crap, it's only human to react negatively, within reason. If someone in real life insulted me personally, I'd lose my respect for that person. Depending on the situation, I might or might not tell them to go to hell, but they'd have to work real hard to regain the respect.

[Eponymic]

I'd like a response to my post.

 

Righty-O.

 

Why should we be nice to everyone? .

 

I did basically cover this in my last post. Though I'll reclarify directly towards this phrase. It's not a matter of being nice towards everyone, it's a matter of being tactful.

 

We should be respectful and professional and mature where respect, professionalism, and maturity warrant it...

 

Right, and to me it's always warranted to be mature & tactful from the start, and find out where a person is really coming from before, if warranted, unleashing the hounds.

 

This is a message board, and Christians who come on here seeking support, then they will ask for it.

 

Usually yes, though not always. People who act like they need help the least, are sometimes those who need help the most.

 

If they enter here spouting off Hell-speak and Bible thumping everywhere, then they will get what they came here for.

 

Rampant mind-fucking and continuous laughter and insults.

 

It's what they want, because their bible tells em that's what they'll get.

 

So why give them what they want? If that's what the Bible tells them what they'll get, why affirm the Bible.

 

You can stifle a raging Christian (or any religious zealot) by using kindness and/or calm, tactful reason.

 

White Raven's plant analogy has a lot of merit- Post #12:

But folks need to remember that religion acts like certain types of plants. You know, some plants grow best in perfect soil with lots of sunshine. You talk to them and they just bloom all over.

 

But there are other plants that just shrivel up and die in that environment. They do best under hardship. No water? Someone pruning them back really hard? Dry soil? They do GREAT.

 

Religion is more like the plants that thrive under hardship. Persecution? People put to death for their beliefs? BRING IT ON! They grow out all over.

 

You can also use the analogy of fire begetting fire. If a person comes on spouting fire all you do by spouting fire back is give them more fuel to work with. What can they do when you throw water at them? Next to nothing.

 

And that's been affirmed many times here. I've seen countless posts where people have been posting slanders, slams & other shit back & forth at each other. A person comes on and calmly analyzes and debunks the raging Christian's argument. And then the Christian will completely ignore that post and jump right to the next person whose giving them more fire to fuel their furnace.

 

They will take the emotional post almost everytime, because that's the fuel that they're seeking. They just can't handle dealing with real, calmly deduced reason & intellectual debate when its posed to them.

[Eponymic]

it's only human to react negatively, within reason.

 

I'm sure there are exceptions, though I think training & social environment have more to do with people being negative than it being in their nature.

 

I'm not saying I side with Hobbes or Rousseau in that man is inherently evil or good. I tend to think that man is more of a blank slate. And how you are trained by your parents, friends, the other people around you, & the state of your known social & even geographical environment is what makes you become more of a positive or negative person.

[Lizard]

Usually yes, though not always. People who act like they need help the least, are sometimes those who need help the most.

 

There is much truth in this statement. I came here two years ago as an ex..then came back briefly after returning to it, then again, this third time as an ex..almost.

 

I didn't know where I stood, where I thought, or what I thought. I had vague ideas and notions. But, I couldn't fully reach out for fear..I've been like a yoyo the last two years (not the poster yoyo, they toy on a string..which is really a fitting description..)

 

Being in a state of confusion, I would mostly read, post a thought or two that often doesn't make sense..and feel somewhat hurt when ignored, lol..

 

This site has helped me..both the "niceness" and the "angriness"..

 

To a rabid fundie though, the anger will simply confirm in their minds that they are right. "Niceness" drives 'em nuts.

 

I think in some ways though, the rabid fundie is really looking for a way out. But, in order to do that, they have to "save face" too. Being attacked, they will not seek the door to freethought..they will cluster more closely to the "truth" they know, rather than take a step into the unknown.

 

Then there are those who just like the fight. Who come here, read a bit, claim to know all that we think and feel, attack and often take our words back to their own boards for dissection. In other words, looking for subject matter to fuel their own sermons to their own members..to keep them in bondage that much longer.

[Amethyst]

I'm sure there are exceptions, though I think training & social environment have more to do with people being negative than it being in their nature.

 

I'm not saying I side with Hobbes or Rousseau in that man is inherently evil or good. I tend to think that man is more of a blank slate. And how you are trained by your parents, friends, the other people around you, & the state of your known social & even geographical environment is what makes you become more of a positive or negative person.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well yeah, but to expect people to be nice all the time is like expecting them to be perfect. It's just not going to happen, no matter how hard you try.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I think reactions to hostile christians depend somewhat on what your goals are.

 

If you sense that someone is here because they are curious, no matter what their first actions are, AND you are willing to spend the time and energy to help them understand our viewpoint, then I think it's better to respond with politeness even when they are rude. I know this is hard to do and I often can't withstand the urge to fight fire with fire.

 

Something I read a couple of years ago has stayed with me. This is an excerpt from a paper entitled "Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die" by Gregory W. Lester ...

 

Skeptical thinkers must realize that because of the survival value of beliefs, disconfirming evidence will rarely, if ever, be sufficient to change beliefs, even in "otherwise intelligent" people. In order to effectively change beliefs skeptics must attend to their survival value, not just their data-accuracy value. This involves several elements.

 

First, skeptics must not expect beliefs to change simply as the result of data or assuming that people are stupid because their beliefs don't change. They must avoid becoming critical or demeaning in response to the resilience of beliefs. People are not necessarily idiots just because their beliefs don't yield to new information. Data is always necessary, but it is rarely sufficient.

 

Second, skeptics must learn to always discuss not just the specific topic addressed by the data, but also the implications that changing the related beliefs will have for the fundamental worldview and belief system of the affected individuals. Unfortunately, addressing belief systems is a much more complicated and daunting task than simply presenting contradictory evidence. Skeptics must discuss the meaning of their data in the face of the brain's need to maintain its belief system in order to maintain a sense of wholeness, consistency, and control in life. Skeptics must become adept at discussing issues of fundamental philosophies and the existential anxiety that is stirred up any time beliefs are challenged. The task is every bit as much philosophical and psychological as it is scientific and data-based.

 

Third, and perhaps most important, skeptics must always appreciate how hard it is for people to have their beliefs challenged. It is, quite literally, a threat to their brain's sense of survival. It is entirely normal for people to be defensive in such situations. The brain feels it is fighting for its life. It is unfortunate that this can produce behavior that is provocative, hostile, and even vicious, but it is understandable as well.

 

The lesson for skeptics is to understand that people are generally not intending to be mean, contrary, harsh, or stupid when they are challenged. It's a fight for survival. The only effective way to deal with this type of defensiveness is to de-escalate the fighting rather than inflame it. Becoming sarcastic or demeaning simply gives the other person's defenses a foothold to engage in a tit-for-tat exchange that justifies their feelings of being threatened ("Of course we fight the skeptics-look what uncaring, hostile jerks they are!") rather than a continued focus on the truth.

 

Skeptics will only win the war for rational beliefs by continuing, even in the face of defensive responses from others, to use behavior that is unfailingly dignified and tactful and that communicates respect and wisdom. For the data to speak loudly, skeptics must always refrain from screaming.

 

Finally, it should be comforting to all skeptics to remember that the truly amazing part of all of this is not that so few beliefs change or that people can be so irrational, but that anyone's beliefs ever change at all. Skeptics' ability to alter their own beliefs in response to data is a true gift; a unique, powerful, and precious ability. It is genuinely a "higher brain function" in that it goes against some of the most natural and fundamental biological urges. Skeptics must appreciate the power and, truly, the dangerousness that this ability bestows upon them. They have in their possession a skill that can be frightening, life-changing, and capable of inducing pain. In turning this ability on others it should be used carefully and wisely. Challenging beliefs must always be done with care and compassion.

 

The full paper can be found here.

 

I'm not suggesting that members of this site must have a goal of deconverting believers. That's a personal decision to make, and obviously doesn't apply to all our visitors either - some are clearly here to antagonize and are not interested in seeking the truth.

[been borg again]

when I was a teenager wearing my christian shirts and carrying my bible with me, I was aproached by a old man who confronted me in way no one else ever had, he bombarded me with questions about biblical history, and all the other apologetics topics . He was pissed of at me, rude, and told me I dont know what I beleive. Choking back the tears I told and told him " I only beleive what I beleive to be true." He made me realize I was being cocky, I was uneducated and my style of evangelism was offensive... it turned out this old man was a catholic priest.

But in a way he changed my life for the positive.

 

I rememebr my first year in public school in science class, the techer mentioned Evolution, I stood up like the good Creationist and publically denounced Creationism.

After that my science teacher made a point to publically humilate my lack of knowledge in class. If I ever failed a test, he would tell the whole class. he would ask me questions in class knowing I didnt know the answer, then he would mock me.

But thinking back, this teacher had the biggest positive impact on life than any other teacher. Not only did he put me in my proper place because of my egoism, he also taught me to stand up for my faith and defend myself at an early age, instead of just repeating christian phrases my parents and church taught me

[Alice]

when I was a teenager  wearing my christian shirts and carrying my bible with me, I was aproached by a old man who confronted me in way no one else ever had, he  bombarded me with questions about biblical history, and all the other apologetics topics . He was pissed of at me, rude, and told me I  dont know what I beleive. Choking back the tears I told and told him " I only beleive what I beleive to be true."  He made me realize I was being cocky, I was uneducated and my style of evangelism was offensive... it turned out this old man was a catholic priest.

But in a way he changed my life for the positive.

 

I rememebr my  first year in public school in science class, the techer mentioned Evolution, I stood up like the good Creationist and publically denounced Creationism.

After that my science teacher made a point to publically humilate my lack of knowledge in class.  If I ever failed a test, he would tell the whole class. he would ask me  questions in class knowing I didnt know the answer, then he would mock me.

But thinking back, this teacher had the biggest positive impact on  life than any other teacher. Not only did he put me in my proper place  because of my egoism, he also taught me to stand up for my faith and defend myself at an early age, instead of just repeating christian phrases my parents and church taught me

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just because you learnt something valuable - doesn't mean this teacher went around it in the best way ... I can't see that public humiliation and mocking in the class room is EVER a good thing. Maybe you survived OK - maybe others in the class looked at the way you were treated and chose to keep their head down from then on - never to question for fear of being humiliated.

 

Anyhow - the article on the way the brain holds onto beliefs is really interesting.

[Ouroboros]

The article about Faith and survival is awesome.

 

Btw, BBA, I think you mean that you "announced", not "denounced", right?

[Eponymic]

Well yeah, but to expect people to be nice all the time is like expecting them to be perfect.  It's just not going to happen, no matter how hard you try.

 

I've already stated it and I'll reaffirm it for you here-

It's not a matter of being nice all the time, it's a matter of being tactful.

 

And yes, everyone screws up, but I'd rather make tact that norm than being vicious.

 

 

And yes, my own personal structure is to be nice and tactful whenever possible. Though being nice most of the time just happens to work for my personality.

[Ouroboros]

But that's your personality.  For many of us that feels a bit too much like censorship.  something we had enough of in christianity.

 

That's another reason why I love you Zoe, you got so much attitude.

I like that.

 

Keep it coming.

[Ouroboros]

rofl.  sometimes my attitude can be abrasive.  I used to wish I was one of those "nice/quiet" girls lol.

 

Nah, don't.

 

There are some guys that do like spize.

[Eponymic]

rofl.  sometimes my attitude can be abrasive.  I used to wish I was one of those "nice/quiet" girls lol.

 

And that's no problem, there's plenty of people who are caustic, but when its tempered with a little tact, it's not vicious & cold. People will still listen to you & you won't be fueling the fire, you're just being abrasively truthful.

 

That's why I keep saying that you don't have to be nice, you can still be effective (and if it fits your personality- caustic, forward, etc.) by employing tact, without fueling a fire that doesn't deserve to be kept alive.

[Totallyatpeace]

rofl.  sometimes my attitude can be abrasive.  I used to wish I was one of those "nice/quiet" girls lol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And sometime I wish I had attitude.

[Caretaker]

I rememebr my  first year in public school in science class, the techer mentioned Evolution, I stood up like the good Creationist and publically denounced Creationism.

Huh???????????

[spamandham]

Well, my behavior depends on where I am. This site is dedicated to providing "fellowship" to ex-christians. It allows debate, but that isn't it's focus.

 

Anyone coming here should know they are in for a rough ride if they are proselytizing. If I notice that's what they're doing, they deserve whatever they get. This isn't letsallbetolerantofbullshit.net, it's ex-christian.net. Those who come here know that, or are simply too lazy to see where there google led them. Why should we allow what we consider to be total crap to go unpunished here?

 

Outside this form, I tend to be less abrasive.

[Ouroboros]

Huh???????????

 

yeah, I did a "huh" too. He must've meant "announced" and not "denounced", otherwise it should have been a good thing. Right?

[♦ nivek ♦]

Tact is for people with a lotta time on hands, professional diplomats and used car salesgeeks..

 

Tact it the ability to tell someone to eat a shit sandwich made with sourdough when you KNOW they prefer white...

 

Tact is for little kids who KNOW the Tooth fairy wasn't killed on the Interstate and let parents know they know...

 

Time on the other hand is an unmetered commodity in which none of us are warranted any exact amount.

 

Some fool comes to the place I hang, wastes my precious time, and I'm inclined to use as little tact as possible to tell he/she/it to FOAD and get hell outa my face..

 

When I care to expend some time, if somone wants to read this post, sit in my real world house, pet my dawgs, do whatever, then it is a *mutual thing* between consenting humans.

 

'Tis not a tact-less preaching session on the alleged biblical based failures of my person and character.. Of which this service and server could not hold the volume of those taking a whack at me...

 

 

n

[spamandham]

When I care to expend some time, if somone wants to read this post, sit in my real world house, pet my dawgs, do whatever, then it is a *mutual thing* between consenting humans.

 

 

If I ever got the chance, N, I'd love to sit and pet your dawgs and shoot the shit (or whatever other targets you have lying around).

[Eponymic]

ok so just for review you DON'T think i'm a total bitch?

 

NO! Not at all. You're one cool catalina.

You have a fun, caustic wit, and it's obvious through your posts that you're not wanting to spit fire back most of the time. You are being inquisitive & encouraging thought without malice. You just do it in your own way, which is all anyone can ask.

[Alice]

I think reactions to hostile christians depend somewhat on what your goals are. 

 

If you sense that someone is here because they are curious, no matter what their first actions are, AND you are willing to spend the time and energy to help them understand our viewpoint, then I think it's better to respond with politeness even when they are rude.  I know this is hard to do and I often can't withstand the urge to fight fire with fire.

 

Something I read a couple of years ago has stayed with me.  This is an excerpt from a paper entitled "Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die" by Gregory W. Lester ...

The full paper can be found here.

 

I'm not suggesting that members of this site must have a goal of deconverting believers.  That's a personal decision to make, and obviously doesn't apply to all our visitors either - some are clearly here to antagonize and are not interested in seeking the truth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just wanted to say again that I found that article really useful. It's helped me understand myself. When I first really started to question enough to engage in conversation with a non believer about my 'beliefs' - I experienced some really strange emotional responses that made me fear I'd gone a bit mad. In the midst of one line of conversation I suddenly became overwhelmingly defensive, felt REALLY got at and attacked, couldn't stop blubbing, couldn't sleep and couldn't talk about it without being arsey.

 

I think I now understand why I had such an extreme reaction.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Just wanted to say again that I found that article really useful. It's helped me understand myself. When I first really started to question enough to engage in conversation with a non believer about my 'beliefs' - I experienced some really strange emotional responses that made me fear I'd gone a bit mad.  In the midst of one line of conversation I suddenly became overwhelmingly defensive, felt REALLY got at and attacked, couldn't stop blubbing, couldn't sleep and couldn't talk about it without being arsey.

 

I think I now understand why I had such an extreme reaction.

 

Hesitent,

 

I agree that this article is very helpful in understanding what we went thru, as well as why some of our christian visitors act the way they do. It is one of the better papers I've read IMHO. I'm glad you got something out of it too.