"god" Admits That Other Gods Exist

[Jun]

Deuteronomy 10:17. and other texts. "The Lord your god is supreme over all gods and over all powers."

 

 

 

Er, so this is "God" admitting that other gods exist? I thought Christians believed that "God" was the only god?

 

 

 

All powers? Is this referring to the powers of the other gods, or to "supernatural" powers?

[Dhampir]

Perusal of ancient traditions of that region reveal that many of the shunned gods whose names appear in th bible were once part of a henotheistic belief system, whereby Yahweh for some reason became chief among them. I think it was that they had only recently departed from that ideal that Ideas of there being other valid gods appears in the bible. It wouldn't make sense that god would even say he was supreme over the other gods, if those other gods didn't exist.

 

Additionally, I understand that in some traditions, El, the father god, who would eventually become synonymous with Yahweh, favored him above his brethren of the pantheon. I also hear that the other gods were made to bow to Yahweh, except Baal, who refused.

[mwc]

There's actually no clear cut origin for our pal YHWH.

 

Dhampir points to one possibility and that is he is a son of the Canaanite god El (Yaw who is renamed Yam). A version of Baal (Baal Hadad) would also be El's son would battle him (there are many "versions" of Baal...the name alone basically just means "master" or "lord"). There's even a name in the bible that roughly translates to "Yahweh is Baal" which shows the merging of the two ideas (I don't recall the location off the top of my head though). Another version of Baal is born of Dagon and is not related to Yaw/Yam at all.

 

Some people think he evolved from Enki/Ea though. It's hard to say. I really think it's a combination of many things. Surprisingly, there's little support in the way of anything by way of Egypt or the Sinai even though that's what one would expect IF that story had any validity to it. But my research is far from complete so who knows?

 

Anyhow, the bible shows that the other gods were real to the authors and to their god. "You shall have no other gods before me." People try to make that out to be things like money or idols but when you actually read what is written in the text it's quite clear those things aren't what's being considered a god. Joshua, after the supposed "conquests," when he tells everyone (I'm paraphrasing) "as for me and my house we will worship the Lord" says this after telling those same people that after seeing the mighty power of this "new" god YHWH they can either stick around or they can go out and serve those other gods that others worship. The gist is that the next time they meet they will be enemies and the side with the more powerful god will triumph (at which point he gives his little speech).

 

Archaeology shows that some hebrews were clearly polytheists and the bible portrays them as, at least, henotheists up to, and including the authors of the gospels (I can't really tell if Paul is or not but he seems to believe as modern xians do and that is other gods are demons which is inline with what Pharisees seemed to think).

 

I've been intrigued with trying to track down the origin of YHWH lately and have been doing a lot of reading to that end so I apologize for going on when the topic comes up.

 

mwc

[Jun]

I've been intrigued with trying to track down the origin of YHWH lately and have been doing a lot of reading to that end so I apologize for going on when the topic comes up.

 

No, an apology is not needed. I for one am glad that you are doing such research and I thank you for that informative post.

 

Please don't hesitate to share anything else that you may discover, I'll be looking forward to it.

[mwc]

Thanks for the kind words.

 

I looked up that name in the Strong's concordance. It's Bealiah which means "Jehovah is master" according to them.

 

Now, for fun, you look up it's word origin and you get:

Ba`al

owner, husband, lord

1. owner

2. a husband

3. citizens, inhabitants

4. rulers, lords

5. (noun of relationship used to characterise - ie, master of dreams)

6. lord (used of foreign gods)

 

and

 

Yahh

1. Jah (Jehovah in the shortened form)

1. the proper name of the one true God

2. used in many compounds

1. names beginning with the letters 'Je'

2. names ending with 'iah' or 'jah'

 

Note that the word Baal is basically a generic while Yah is most any form is attributed to YHWH (even though it is simply the imperfect version of "to be" meaning "that which exists" or less precisely "I am" as people know it better).

 

Anyhow, the name above means "Yahweh is Ba'al." Now just think about that if you're trying to establish your new god since this is the same trick used by xians later on when they started referring to their "god" as just God. "Yahweh is Ba'al" is the same as "Yahweh is master or LORD." How is the name rendered in the texts? LORD. So you sneak your guy in place of the old one by using the most obtuse reference possible. It isn't until you give another identifier that Ba'al has any real meaning "Ba'al Zebbub = Lord of the Flies" (a real Ba'al you should recognize). This last Ba'al is bad but if he's a good one then you take his attributes and give them to your generic "Lord/Ba'al" which is your new guy. Worship them side by side for awhile and then tell everyone that they've been worshiping your guy all along but with a different name (Zeus/Jupiter is an example).

 

This is my guess as to how the real "conquest" of YHWH occurred in Canaan from the reading I've done so far. The same is true with El but there's no easy way to tell in what order the assimilation occurred. El, in at least two known texts (as I recall) of Deuteronomy, gives YHWH his inheritance which is Israel so it would have to had occurred after that point (but who knows when that is exactly). The same for the Ba'al issue. It is being faught in the pages of the bible so it isn't resolved quickly but over decades or even centuries.

 

There's also the issue of Israel and Judah worshiping different gods and even different versions of Yahweh. Careful reading of the bible reveals this conflict.

 

All I know is what I thought was going to take me a few days to get a pretty good idea for has turned into a long term project. As usual the internet has lots of great information...that's tiny nuggets of gold with a lot of waste to sift through. I'm going to have to get the books from the experts on this one it seems (I'll have to see if I can track down some e-books to save myself a trip to the library).

 

mwc

[Jun]

Wow! A treasure trove of information. Thank you for that, it is very very enlightening. I've printed this out for future reference

 

This one sounds very interesting -

There's also the issue of Israel and Judah worshiping different gods and even different versions of Yahweh. Careful reading of the bible reveals this conflict.

 

Now I'm really looking forward to anything else you dig up and I appreciate your research and your sharing it here with us.

[D Laurier]

Gotta love bible evidences that contradict christian dogma.

Jehova is king of the gods among ONE tribal group (the Apperu/hebrew).

And has a father and a mother and a wife.

 

It interesting to note that throughout the pagan complex, gods of the 3rd generation cannot endure the touch of iron. And in the bible Jehova cannot endure iron. He flees from it (book of judges).

[Fweethawt]

Isn't the name, El or Elohim a plural form? Doesn't it mean multiple gods, or something like that?

 

Is Ra El ?

[Dhampir]

Apparently, there are two ways to spell Elohim in Hebrew, one which denotes plurality, and one which is the name of the father god. Apparently, although I haven't gotten around to verifying it, Genesis uses the latter, at least early on.

[mwc]

Wow! A treasure trove of information. Thank you for that, it is very very enlightening. I've printed this out for future reference

Oh my. I'm not even sure I trust myself that much.

 

This one sounds very interesting -

There's also the issue of Israel and Judah worshiping different gods and even different versions of Yahweh. Careful reading of the bible reveals this conflict.

This is a tough nut to crack but I'm sure it can be done. Just looking at the bible you can see where sometimes "god" was on Israels side and sometimes this supposed same god was on Judah's side. Looking at the dates on the writings it's starting to look as if the same god was on different sides at the same time. So the dates on the writings are off, the "god" is playing each side against the other (which isn't above this god I admit), we have two claimants different versions of the same deity or some combination of the above (or maybe another option I haven't thought of yet). Whoever redacted the bible tried to "smooth" this out but the problem still exists.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Isn't the name, El or Elohim a plural form? Doesn't it mean multiple gods, or something like that?

In the Canaanite usage the word is plural and basically refers to the entire court of El so it would be his underlings (normally his 70 sons which were lesser gods). It could, I suppose, refer to angels or something else but I have come across that usage yet (not that I've looked so take that for what it's worth). In Hebrew it is a plural word with singular usage...like a royal we but there's no other type of word in their language which is a bit odd. It's likely a plural word that was reworked singular when polytheism fell out of favor (exactly what it appears to be).

 

Is Ra El ?

If only. Puns were quite popular.

 

A little off topic but I love knowing that every time xians say "amen" they're giving praise to the Egyptian god Amun (of Amun-Ra the sun god fame). Since I associate it with church and sermons it's appropriate that this happens to be the God of Air (hot air for most preachers and those spouting the words "amen").

 

mwc

[Llwellyn]

How would Yahweh even know whether or not there is a more potent person above him? Sounds pretty arrogant of him to disbelieve in a more supreme God. If I were him, I would take a more agnostic position -- "Maybe there's a God, maybe there isn't." Plus, if I were him, I'd keep my nose clean and make sure I didn't provoke the vengeance of a more serious and powerful person above him. I read the Bible, and it appears that Yahweh is a complete atheist. It's funny that Christians who hate atheists turn around and worship one.

[Wertbag]

"The Lord your god is supreme over all gods and over all powers."

In regards to "other powers" the Bible claims that normal humans could perform magic as well. The story of Exodus has a contest between Gods magic and the pharaohs mages:

"Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts"

 

By the use of magic the Egyptians convert sticks to snakes, turn water to blood, and summoned frogs. They however couldn't repeat the trick of summoning gnats, and therefore take no further part in the story (Pharaoh might have had them kicked out at this point, I mean what use are wizards if they can't summon annoying bugs?)

[mwc]

Did a little more reading this afternoon and Deuteronomy turned up after a search for the "golden calf" (since El was originally represented as a bull and his children calves it dawned on me that YHWH was first represented as a calf...even though that didn't work out too well in the story I thought it might be a good search term).

 

So, in chapter 9 Moses is giving a long speech to the children of Israel that they are going to be going into the promised land (finally) and so he wants to give them a few rules. A lot of what he says is just a rehash of what has already been said in the previous books (retell the amazing story of getting out of Egypt, the rules for sacrifice yet again, and so on...this is why everyone glosses over this stuff but if you take the time to compare you can see the priests setting themselves up nicely as well as the editor "fixing" some problems of the earlier stories...ie. end of chapter 9, beginning of chapter 10 confirms that the two copies of the ten commandments made in Exodus were identical copies when a quick reading of Exodus proves they are not. A contradiction in Exodus that someone attempts to cover up in a later book. Xians try to say maybe the Exodus copies weren't supposed to be identical or any number of excuses but this passage blows that theory out of the water).

 

This verse (Young's Literal Translation):

10:17 "17 for Jehovah your God ['elohiym] -- He [is] God of the gods ['elohiym of the 'elohiym], and Lord of the lords; God ['el], the great, the mighty, and the fearful; who accepteth not persons, nor taketh a bribe;" (italicized brackets mine)

 

If there were no other gods this verse would make no sense. You can also see in the italicized portions the usage of elohiym, el and Yahweh (normally hidden as LORD as is Yah, Yahu and many other renditions) all in just one verse.

 

In the next chapter it looks bad for our group:

11:16 "`Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be enticed, and ye have turned aside, and served other gods ['elohiym], and bowed yourselves to them," (YLT)

 

Notice these aren't false gods (as we are always told) but other gods. Real gods that simply aren't Yahweh. If they stay the course then things will go well but if they worship other gods then Yahweh will get mad at them (is what the context of all this is).

 

So how can I know I'm reading this correctly? That we're talking one real GOD verses false gods? If we read just a little bit further into chapter 13 it becomes clear. Now, there is too much to quote here but this is also the passage that people love to use to say jesus is a false god/prophet. I think an important bit is this though:

 

"6 `When thy brother -- son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend who [is] as thine own soul -- doth move thee, in secret, saying, Let us go and serve other gods -- (which thou hast not known, thou and thy fathers, 7 of the gods of the peoples who [are] round about you, who are near unto thee, or who are far off from thee, from the end of the earth even unto the end of the earth) -- 8 thou dost not consent to him, nor hearken unto him, nor doth thine eye have pity on him, nor dost thou spare, nor dost thou cover him over." (YLT)

 

That translation can be a little tough to read so here's another (The Bible in Basic English):

"6 If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife of your heart, or the friend who is as dear to you as your life, working on you secretly says to you, Let us go and give worship to other gods, strange to you and to your fathers; 7 Gods of the peoples round about you, near or far, from one end of the earth to the other; 8 Do not be guided by him or give attention to him; have no pity on him or mercy, and give him no cover;"

 

I bolded the same section for comparison. Notice that it very clearly says that if someone tries to convince you to worship "gods" that are strange to you. Gods that are known to them are perfectly fine to worship. (I think this is left over from Israel's polytheistic days. It either came to be explained away later on when monotheism took hold or, unlike today, searching the scrolls was no easy task and statements like this were just overlooked and not removed or altered to reflect the new beliefs.)

 

However all this begs the question. What gods are known to them? The golden calf was known but not approved but later in the bible (I don't have the reference handy) one of the kings of Israel makes calves (or bull) statues and presents them to Yahweh and, as I recall, they are not rebuffed. The golden calf could also be associated with Hathor so perhaps this is why it was rejected? The fertility goddesses have been discussed already and her figurine (idol) has been found all over Israel in digs (and despite the objections of the prophets).

 

Since we're reading edited texts it's really hard to say what it is they might have been going on about. What would be a fantastic find would be something like the Dead Sea Scrolls but from before this first redaction.

 

mwc

[Jun]

WOW! I've read this twice already. I am finding myself drawn to study this deeper.

[Lycorth]

I read the Bible, and it appears that Yahweh is a complete atheist. It's funny that Christians who hate atheists turn around and worship one.

 

So very true

[Jun]

From the Skeptic's Annotated Bible - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

 

According to the Bible "God" was one among many.

 

Genesis 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.

 

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

 

Genesis 11:7 Let us go down, and there confound their language.

 

Exodus 12:12 And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

 

Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

 

Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

 

Exodus 20:3, 5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

 

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

 

Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods.

 

Exodus 23:13 Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

 

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

 

Exodus 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.

 

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

 

Numbers 33:4Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

 

Deuteronomy 6:14-15 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

 

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.

 

Deuteronomy 28:14 Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them.

 

Joshua 24:14 Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served. - the Pagan gods?

 

Judges 11:24 Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

 

1 Samuel 6:5 Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods.

 

1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

 

1 Chronicles 16:25 The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

 

Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods.

 

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods.

 

Psalm 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.

 

Psalm 96:4 For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

 

Psalm 97:7 Worship him, all ye gods.

 

Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods.

 

Jeremiah 1:16 I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods.

 

Jeremiah 10:11 The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

 

Jeremiah 25:6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

 

Zephaniah 2:11 The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth.

 

John 10:33-34 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[mwc]

From the Skeptic's Annotated Bible -

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I'm surprised they even included this one. I guess this is why I don't agree with SAB on everything. In case you're not sure what I'm talking about this is a known insertion to support the trinity doctrine (Bad xians! Bad!).

 

mwc

[Jun]

From the Skeptic's Annotated Bible -

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I'm surprised they even included this one. I guess this is why I don't agree with SAB on everything. In case you're not sure what I'm talking about this is a known insertion to support the trinity doctrine (Bad xians! Bad!).

 

mwc

 

Oh, I'm shocked! Christians inserting texts in support of their glorious bible. Why would they? Christians don't need to add to the almighty "word of God." snicker snicker

 

[Vixentrox]

Many Christians dont even read the so called "word of god" beyond a few feel good passages.