Twelve Men Are Sent Into Canaan

[Jun]

While in the bookshop today, I thought I would randomly open a bible and read something, this is the section I opened to.

 

Numbers 13

Twelve Men Are Sent into Canaan

 

(Deuteronomy 1.19-33)

The LORD said to Moses, "Choose a leader from each tribe and send them into Canaan to spy on those living there."

So Moses sent twelve tribal leaders from Israel's camp in the Paran Desert with orders to spy on the inhabitants of Canaan.

Before Moses sent them into Canaan, he said, "After you go through the Southern Desert of Canaan, continue north into the hill country and see what those regions are like. Be sure to remember how many people live there, how strong they are, and if they live in open towns or walled cities. See if the land is good for growing crops and find out what kinds of trees grow there. It's time for grapes to ripen, so try to bring back some of the fruit that grows there.

 

"God" is sooooo powerful and all knowing that he can't tell Moses what's in Canaan? "God," in order to support Moses and his people tells Moses to send spys to see how strong their defences are? Er, he's a "God" isn't he?

 

The twelve men left to spy on the inhabitants of Canaan from the Zin Desert in the south all the way to the town of Rehob near Lebo-Hamath in the north. As they went through the Southern Desert, they came to the town of Hebron, which was seven years older than the Egyptian town of Zoan. In Hebron, they saw the three Anakim clans of Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai. When they got to Bunch Valley, they cut off a branch with such a huge bunch of grapes, that it took two men to carry it on a pole. Along with the grapes, they also took back pomegranates and figs.

 

The Men Report Back to Moses.

After spying in the land of Canaan for forty days, the twelve men returned to Kadesh in the Paran Desert and told Moses, Aaron, and the people what they had seen. They showed them the fruit and said, "Look at this fruit! The land we explored is rich with milk and honey. But the people who live there are strong, and their cities are large and walled. We even saw the three Anakim clans. Besides that, the Amalekites live in the Southern Desert; the Hittites, Jebusites, and Amorites are in the hill country; and the Canaanites live along the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River."

 

Caleb calmed down the crowd and said, "Let's go and take the land. I know we can do it!" But the other men replied, "Those people are much too strong for us." Then they started spreading rumours and saying, "We won't be able to grow anything in that soil. And the people are like giants. In fact, we saw the Nephilim who are the ancestors of the Anakim. They were so big that we felt as small as grasshoppers."

 

Why is it necessary to take the land of others? Aren't ALL people the people of "God?" Can't the all powerful "God" just give them some land? He created everything anyhow didn't he? What's with all the talk of military incursion into another land? Sounds to me that "God" is to blame for introducing man to the concept of taking the land of others! What happened to peace and love?

 

The Israelites Rebel against Moses

 

After the Israelites heard the report from the twelve men who had spied in Canaan, the people cried all night and complained to Moses and Aaron, "We wish we had died in Egypt or somewhere out here in the desert! Is the LORD leading us into Canaan, just to have us killed and our women and children captured? We'd be better off in Egypt." Then they said to one another, "Let's choose our own leader and go back."

 

Moses and Aaron bowed down to pray in front of the crowd. Joshua and Caleb tore their clothes in sorrow and said, "We saw the land ourselves, and it's very good. If we obey the LORD, he will surely give us that land rich with milk and honey. So don't rebel. We have no reason to be afraid of the people who live there. The LORD is on our side, and they won't stand a chance against us!"

 

The crowd threatened to stone Moses and Aaron to death. But just then, the LORD appeared in a cloud at the sacred tent.

 

Moses Prays for the People

 

The LORD said to Moses, "I have done great things for these people, and they still reject me by refusing to believe in my power. So they will no longer be my people. I will destroy them, but I will make you the ancestor of a nation even stronger than theirs."

 

"God" obviously has a short temper! Not very patient. "His people" aren't following his grand scheme, so he threatens to disown them and destroy them!

Moses replied, "With your mighty power you rescued your people from Egypt, so please don't destroy us here in the desert. If you do, the Egyptians will hear about it and tell the people of Canaan. Those Canaanites already know that we are your people, and that we see you face to face. And they have heard how you lead us with a thick cloud during the day and flaming fire at night. But if you kill us, they will claim it was because you weren't powerful enough to lead us into Canaan as you promised.

 

It seems obvious that it matters what others think of them and their "God." Thick cloud during the day? Flaming fire at nigth? a volcanic eruption perhaps?

 

Show us your great power, LORD. You promised that you love to show mercy and kindness. And you said that you are very patient, but that you will punish everyone guilty of doing wrong--not only them but their children and grandchildren as well.

 

Now how's that for mercy and kindness, do wrong and not only you will be punished but your descendents too!

 

You are merciful, and you treat people better than they deserve. So please forgive these people, just as you have forgiven them ever since they left Egypt.

 

Then the LORD said to Moses, "In answer to your prayer, I do forgive them. But as surely as I live and my power has no limit, I swear that not one of these Israelites will enter the land I promised to give their ancestors. These people have seen my power in Egypt and in the desert, but they will never see Canaan. They have disobeyed and tested me too many times.

 

So "God" has patience, or he doesn't? Tested him too many times. Does this show patience?

 

Just this one small section of a larger story appears to me to be little more than the retelling of a military incursion led by the Israelites into Canaan. "God" is not a powerful "God" it seems, and is only there as a kind of military commander in chief, barking out orders that, when there is a threat of them not beeing obeyed, threatens to destroy his little band of followers.

[mwc]

Sound familiar?

 

Exodus 32

7 And the Lord said to Moses, Go down quickly; for your people, whom you took out of the land of Egypt, are turned to evil ways; 8 Even now they are turned away from the rule I gave them, and have made themselves a metal ox and given worship to it and offerings, saying, This is your god, O Israel, who took you up out of the land of Egypt. 9 And the Lord said to Moses, I have been watching this people, and I see that they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now do not get in my way, for my wrath is burning against them; I will send destruction on them, but of you I will make a great nation. 11 But Moses made prayer to God, saying, Lord, why is your wrath burning against your people whom you took out of the land of Egypt, with great power and with the strength of your hand? 12 Why let the Egyptians say, He took them out to an evil fate, to put them to death on the mountains, cutting them off from the earth? Let your wrath be turned away from them, and send not this evil on your people. 13 Have in mind Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you gave your oath, saying, I will make your seed like the stars of heaven in number, and all this land will I give to your seed, as I said, to be their heritage for ever. 14 So the Lord let himself be turned from his purpose of sending punishment on his people.

 

Exodus 33

1 And the Lord said to Moses, Go forward from this place, you and the people whom you have taken up out of the land of Egypt, to that land about which I made an oath to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, To your seed will I give it. 2 And I will send an angel before you, driving out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite: 3 Go up to that land flowing with milk and honey; but I will not go up among you, for you are a stiff-necked people, for fear that I send destruction on you while you are on the way. 4 Hearing this bad news the people were full of grief, and no one put on his ornaments. 5 And the Lord said to Moses, Say to the children of Israel, You are a stiff-necked people: if I come among you, even for a minute, I will send destruction on you; so take off all your ornaments, so that I may see what to do with you. 6 So the children of Israel took off their ornaments at Mount Horeb, and did not put them on again.

 

5 And the Lord came down in the cloud and took his place by the side of Moses, and Moses gave worship to the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord went past before his eyes, saying, The Lord, the Lord, a God full of pity and grace, slow to wrath and great in mercy and faith; 7 Having mercy on thousands, overlooking evil and wrongdoing and sin; he will not let wrongdoers go free, but will send punishment on children for the sins of their fathers, and on their children's children to the third and fourth generation. 8 Then Moses quickly went down on his face in worship. 9 And he said, If now I have grace in your eyes, let the Lord go among us, for this is a stiff-necked people, and give us forgiveness for our wrongdoing and our sin, and take us for your heritage.

 

Exodus 34

10 And the Lord said, See, this is what I will undertake: before the eyes of your people I will do wonders, such as have not been done in all the earth or in any nation: and all your people will see the work of the Lord, for what I am about to do for you is greatly to be feared. 11 Take care to do the orders which I give you today; I will send out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. 12 But take care, and do not make any agreement with the people of the land where you are going, for it will be a cause of sin to you. 13 But their altars are to be overturned and their pillars broken and their images cut down: 14 For you are to be worshippers of no other god: for the Lord is a God who will not give his honour to another. 15 So see that you make no agreement with the people of the land, and do not go after their gods, or take part in their offerings, or be guests at their feasts, 16 Or take their daughters for your sons; for when their daughters give worship before their gods, they will make your sons take part with them. 17 Make for yourselves no gods of metal.

 

Exodus 40

34 Then the cloud came down covering the Tent of meeting, and the House was full of the glory of the Lord; 35 So that Moses was not able to go into the Tent of meeting, because the cloud was resting on it, and the House was full of the glory of the Lord. 36 And whenever the cloud was taken up from the House, the children of Israel went forward on their journey: 37 But while the cloud was there, they made no move till it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the Lord was resting on the House by day, and at night there was fire in the cloud, before the eyes of all the people of Israel, and so it was through all their journeys. THE END.

Not only can't this god keep straight the new name he gave to Jacob but he keeps getting angry at these people and making the same basic threat over and over. He can also have his mind changed by simply standing up to him. This is, of course, something no one would ever think of doing today. He then says he can't go with them because he'll destroy them if he were to go along on the trip. So is he everywhere or not? I guess not (yet at least).

 

But he changes his mind after showing his butt to Moses (I left that out) and goes along on the trip. He then say he'll do magic tricks like they've never seen before (like no one has ever seen before...pretty good but he's gotten out of practice because I've seen some good tricks in my day). He also says he will be the one to get rid of the various enemies of the Israelites. I guess that's true if by that he means they'll do all the work. Then don't worship the other gods and don't make your own gods.

 

[offtopic]Okay, I added the THE END but you can see how perfectly it fits there. That is the end of the story. Sequels were written but that doesn't mean anything just like in Hollywood. Leviticus doesn't flow out of Exodus ("1 And the voice of the Lord came to Moses out of the Tent of meeting, saying, 2 Give these orders to the children of Israel: When anyone of you makes an offering to the Lord, you are to take it from the cattle, from the herd or from the flock."). The story ended and no more should have ever been said but someone wanted to make some crappy sequels because of money (temple priesthood was big business after all).[/offtopic]

 

While some of this is outside of what is said in the stuff Jun posted, if you take it all in you can see that this is the template for the scene in Jun's story. I think there's at least one other place I've read this little mini-story but maybe I'm just thinking of the one Jun posted?

 

A second quick digression on my part is this:

Exodus 13

17 Now after Pharaoh had let the people go, God did not take them through the land of the Philistines, though that was near: for God said, If the people see war, they may have a change of heart and go back to Egypt. 18 But God took the people round by the waste land near the Red Sea: and the children of Israel went up in fighting order out of the land of Egypt.

The first issue is the Philistines didn't exist during any of the acceptable time frames of this story and even if they did they only occupied the Gaza region. This means the people would have only had to have marched slightly inland to have avoid them altogether instead of some convoluted desert route in the Sinai Peninsula. Second, YHWH, didn't know if the people would turn around or not if they were to encounter Philistines so "better safe than sorry." Third, he wanted to avoid battle but the Israelites departed ready for battle (in this translation it's "in fighting order") so it seems they were ready to fight (except when Pharoah's troops appear later because then they're ready to cave-in).

 

This last point ties back into Jun's story because the Israelite's, once again, don't want to fight. They decide they'd rather go back to enslavement. Two million people carrying the wealth of Egypt (the Egyptians gave them their gold and silver when they left). Six hundred thousand armed fighting men. The biggest army known in that region in that period. They could have swept through and taken then entire ancient near east and ruled it from Turkey to Egypt out to Babylon (and likely beyond). But they're afraid? Of what? With or without a god on their side nothing could have stood up to them and lived. The gold and silver could have bought what they couldn't conquer. The story falls flat on it's face unless we're talking about six hundred thousand armed cowards and then I think they deserve to have a little divine wrath levied against them.

 

Finally, does YHWH really care what others think about him?

Exodus 14

17 And I will make the heart of the Egyptians hard, and they will go in after them: and I will be honoured over Pharaoh and over his army, his war-carriages, and his horsemen. 18 And the Egyptians will see that I am the Lord, when I get honour over Pharaoh and his war-carriages and his horsemen.

Yes he does (in fact, if you read the story all the plagues aren't so much about freeing the slaves or the Israelites as it is to prove how great he is to the Egyptians...he seems a little insecure).

 

mwc

[neverclear5]

Sound familiar?

 

Yes he does (in fact, if you read the story all the plagues aren't so much about freeing the slaves or the Israelites as it is to prove how great he is to the Egyptians...he seems a little insecure).

 

mwc

 

 

Of course, wouldn't you be if you we're imaginary!

[duderonomy]

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "In answer to your prayer, I do forgive them. But as surely as I live and my power has no limit, I swear that not one of these Israelites will enter the land I promised to give their ancestors. These people have seen my power in Egypt and in the desert, but they will never see Canaan. They have disobeyed and tested me too many times.

 

So "God" has patience, or he doesn't? Tested him too many times. Does this show patience?"

 

Really, this does show that God has patience. Isn't it true, according to Bible you quote, that Moses and those that followed him never entered into the 'Promised Land'? You want to use this 'passage' to show that God is false, or nonexistent, or mean, but it seems to indicate to me that God does just what He says. He forgives, but don't expect to hit the lottery, as it were, if you don't do what He says. Take Him or leave Him.

[Guest NECRON]

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "In answer to your prayer, I do forgive them. But as surely as I live and my power has no limit, I swear that not one of these Israelites will enter the land I promised to give their ancestors. These people have seen my power in Egypt and in the desert, but they will never see Canaan. They have disobeyed and tested me too many times.

 

So "God" has patience, or he doesn't? Tested him too many times. Does this show patience?"

 

Really, this does show that God has patience. Isn't it true, according to Bible you quote, that Moses and those that followed him never entered into the 'Promised Land'? You want to use this 'passage' to show that God is false, or nonexistent, or mean, but it seems to indicate to me that God does just what He says. He forgives, but don't expect to hit the lottery, as it were, if you don't do what He says. Take Him or leave Him.

 

Where does he forgive them F*%#head? He denied them entry because they tested his limited patience. Der.

[duderonomy]

NECRON,

 

Like I said, you have to take God or leave Him as presented in these verses. Whether one thinks it 'god-like' or not to be pushed to anger to the point of killing, the Isrealites according to their very own book had seen just that in their diety in Egypt; yet rebeled and threatened to stone their own leaders, because they weren't satisfied with what God was doing, and because they chose to believe evil and untrue rumors from the ten, rather than believe God.

 

So then, God forgave them, according to Moses' prayer, by not killing them. If unforgiven, the people would have been killed, see?

That's where God forgave them, not by denying entry. That was done for an entirely different reason.

 

 

Yes, God's patience may have limits, but that doesn't mean He isn't patient at all. Even after being provoked to genocide, He forgave. That seems pretty patient to me, and I don't know of any passage or book in the Bible that shows God having patience without limits.

 

My own views are very similar to the O.P.'s (Jun's), but there are other ways of seeing these things. Some would say if there is a 'God', and if it's the God of the Bible, then it seems that we would have to accept His nature and morals, and not our own as the standard.

 

So as I pointed out in my post to Jun, you can't really use these verses to show that God has no patience.

[mwc]

NECRON,

 

Like I said, you have to take God or leave Him as presented in these verses. Whether one thinks it 'god-like' or not to be pushed to anger to the point of killing, the Isrealites according to their very own book had seen just that in their diety in Egypt; yet rebeled and threatened to stone their own leaders, because they weren't satisfied with what God was doing, and because they chose to believe evil and untrue rumors from the ten, rather than believe God.

 

So then, God forgave them, according to Moses' prayer, by not killing them. If unforgiven, the people would have been killed, see?

That's where God forgave them, not by denying entry. That was done for an entirely different reason.

 

 

Yes, God's patience may have limits, but that doesn't mean He isn't patient at all. Even after being provoked to genocide, He forgave. That seems pretty patient to me, and I don't know of any passage or book in the Bible that shows God having patience without limits.

 

My own views are very similar to the O.P.'s (Jun's), but there are other ways of seeing these things. Some would say if there is a 'God', and if it's the God of the Bible, then it seems that we would have to accept His nature and morals, and not our own as the standard.

 

So as I pointed out in my post to Jun, you can't really use these verses to show that God has no patience.

I know this was to Necron but don't know if what you pointed out shows that this god has patience. I will accept forgiveness however. The reason I don't accept patience is that I tend to use this definition (dictionary.com):

"the quality of being patient, as the bearing of provocation, annoyance, misfortune, or pain, without complaint, loss of temper, irritation, or the like."

 

This god shows nothing like this when dealing with the Israelites (or anything close enough for us to consider patience). He tolerates them more than anything. If you look at my long post you can see that he even says that if he goes with them on their trip he'll just kill them off since that's how upset he is. That's not patient at all to me ("get out of my sight or I'll kill you...I mean it I'll kill you" is what I'm seeing and that he calms down really means nothing). We also need to consider that this god supposedly has perfect foresight so nothing this Israelites can do can ever come as a surprise. He should be prepared for all their wrongdoings and yet the text reveals a god that becomes aware of their activities only as they happen and reacts accordingly.

 

I know it seems a minor quibble, and perhaps it is, but I just think patient is far too lenient here.

 

mwc

[Jun]

patience is that I tend to use this definition (dictionary.com):

"the quality of being patient, as the bearing of provocation, annoyance, misfortune, or pain, without complaint, loss of temper, irritation, or the like."

 

This god shows nothing like this when dealing with the Israelites (or anything close enough for us to consider patience). He tolerates them more than anything. If you look at my long post you can see that he even says that if he goes with them on their trip he'll just kill them off since that's how upset he is. That's not patient at all to me ("get out of my sight or I'll kill you...I mean it I'll kill you" is what I'm seeing and that he calms down really means nothing). We also need to consider that this god supposedly has perfect foresight so nothing this Israelites can do can ever come as a surprise. He should be prepared for all their wrongdoings and yet the text reveals a god that becomes aware of their activities only as they happen and reacts accordingly.

 

I have to agree with mwc on this. "God" surely shows (some) tolerance. But can "God" show PATIENCE (see mwc's definition) I don't think he/she/it does. Surely an all-knowing "God" knows what the Israelites are thinking? What they will do?

 

"God" clearly shows, in other places throughout the Bible also, that he/she/it has a very bad temper. In the first place he threatened to KILL THEM, simply because they didn't believe! Rather than PROVE himself further, he almost gives up and just throws in the towel - "oh well, I can't get them to do what I want, may as well kill them."

 

And what about this whole sending an invasion party into someone else's land? What's with that?

[duderonomy]

Guys,

 

It doesn't matter what the dictionary says 'patience' is, because as I said, can you show me where in the Bible, God's patience has a limit, or a lack of limit? 'Without complaint, loss of temper', etc. is a man made defenition of the word. Even so, where did God not show this attribute while He had said patience? Is there then a limit to patience when it concerns the Almighty of the Bible? Should we then go according to man's version or God's version, if indeed, we are discussing the Bible? If you'll read the Bible as it is, you'll see (I think) that God was always patient until the limits of said patience was reached. I'll bet that you too have patience, but only to a point. While you are being patient, I'm sure that you too display actions that would show you to be patient. But once your limit has been reached, those attributes fall by the wayside as some other part of you takes over...

 

You may say that God should be superior, but according to the Bible you quote, you are created in 'His image'.

 

While God had patience, He didn't lose His temper, until His patience had run it's course. Yes, He forsees everything, and there is free will, and God knows when more 'patience' won't do any good. I fear that some of you think that God is all benevolent, forgiving, and while you embraced the scripture claiming that 'God is Love', you have ignored the scripture that says, 'it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a Living God'. Jesus said, "You do err, knowing not the Scriptures, nor the power of God".

 

As I said before, and forgive me my spelling...if you are going to take the Bible as the Word of God, pro or con, you have to understand it first, or any and all rants you or we may have don't count.

 

As for the 'invasion party' into someone else's land, I would hope that that's another thread, because I couldn't hope to address that here.

 

Duderonomy

[Jun]

Guys,

 

It doesn't matter what the dictionary says 'patience' is, because as I said, can you show me where in the Bible, God's patience has a limit, or a lack of limit? 'Without complaint, loss of temper', etc. is a man made defenition of the word. Even so, where did God not show this attribute while He had said patience? Is there then a limit to patience when it concerns the Almighty of the Bible? Should we then go according to man's version or God's version, if indeed, we are discussing the Bible? If you'll read the Bible as it is, you'll see (I think) that God was always patient until the limits of said patience was reached. I'll bet that you too have patience, but only to a point. While you are being patient, I'm sure that you too display actions that would show you to be patient. But once your limit has been reached, those attributes fall by the wayside as some other part of you takes over...

 

You may say that God should be superior, but according to the Bible you quote, you are created in 'His image'.

 

While God had patience, He didn't lose His temper, until His patience had run it's course. Yes, He forsees everything, and there is free will, and God knows when more 'patience' won't do any good. I fear that some of you think that God is all benevolent, forgiving, and while you embraced the scripture claiming that 'God is Love', you have ignored the scripture that says, 'it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a Living God'. Jesus said, "You do err, knowing not the Scriptures, nor the power of God".

 

As I said before, and forgive me my spelling...if you are going to take the Bible as the Word of God, pro or con, you have to understand it first, or any and all rants you or we may have don't count.

 

As for the 'invasion party' into someone else's land, I would hope that that's another thread, because I couldn't hope to address that here.

 

Duderonomy

 

You said - "can you show me where in the Bible, God's patience has a limit, or a lack of limit?"

 

and then you said - "If you'll read the Bible as it is, you'll see (I think) that God was always patient until the limits of said patience was reached.

 

So "God's" patience therefore has a limit. How is it that he/she/it is a "God" then?

 

Should we then go according to man's version or God's version, if indeed, we are discussing the Bible?

 

The "bible" is written by man, no? So..............

 

"God" is fictional and made in our image to satisfy the ideals of man.

 

As for the 'invasion party' into someone else's land, I would hope that that's another thread, because I couldn't hope to address that here.

 

That's the topic of this thread.

[duderonomy]

Jun,

 

Is the Bible written by man? Or God. You have to settle that in your own soul, and according to your own faith. I've made my points, and you are under no obligation to refute me, as you are of course free to believe what you will. On the other hand, I know that you can't refute me, because I'm right in my interpretation, just as you are right in yours. I, though, have used chapter and verse, and you have used 'man's' logic, and your opinions.

 

I know what the topic of this thread is. I read the O.P. If you want to expand, then bring it. Let's discuss the taking of the land of Caanan by the Isrealites.

 

God promised His peeps the land. Other peeps were living there. The other's were driven out, and now the Jews live there, in the land and city of David; Jerusalem; the Holy Land; and etc.

 

 

So?? What really, is your point?

[Jun]

Jun,

 

Is the Bible written by man? Or God. You have to settle that in your own soul, and according to your own faith. I've made my points, and you are under no obligation to refute me, as you are of course free to believe what you will. On the other hand, I know that you can't refute me, because I'm right in my interpretation, just as you are right in yours. I, though, have used chapter and verse, and you have used 'man's' logic, and your opinions.

 

I know what the topic of this thread is. I read the O.P. If you want to expand, then bring it. Let's discuss the taking of the land of Caanan by the Isrealites.

 

God promised His peeps the land. Other peeps were living there. The other's were driven out, and now the Jews live there, in the land and city of David; Jerusalem; the Holy Land; and etc.

 

 

So?? What really, is your point?

 

The bible is a book written by man, just as Lord of The Rings is a book written by man.

 

You can quote chapter and verse all you like. It's the same as quoting from Harry Potter as far as I'm concerned. It's fiction anyhow. I'm interested in how anyone in their right mind can possibly believe such fiction as truth.

 

Oh, and I have no soul and I have no faith. Souls don't exist, and faith is for the weak.

 

So rather than the all loving, all knowing "God" giving a piece of land to his "peeps," he encourages them to STEAL land from those who are already living there. So "God" steals land from others for his peeps. What a glorious "God."

 

My point? I started the thread to discuss what I saw as an apparent military incursion into enemy territory in the name of "God." Something you have just supported.

[mwc]

Guys,

 

It doesn't matter what the dictionary says 'patience' is, because as I said, can you show me where in the Bible, God's patience has a limit, or a lack of limit? 'Without complaint, loss of temper', etc. is a man made defenition of the word. Even so, where did God not show this attribute while He had said patience? Is there then a limit to patience when it concerns the Almighty of the Bible? Should we then go according to man's version or God's version, if indeed, we are discussing the Bible? If you'll read the Bible as it is, you'll see (I think) that God was always patient until the limits of said patience was reached. I'll bet that you too have patience, but only to a point. While you are being patient, I'm sure that you too display actions that would show you to be patient. But once your limit has been reached, those attributes fall by the wayside as some other part of you takes over...

Actually, it does matter what the dictionary says in that it allows us all to make sure that we're using the same meanings for these words. It appears, however, that you wish to apply a different meaning to said word. Now, I know you love to play devil's advocate, but I fail to see where the lack of the literal terms used in the dictionary also appearing in the bible are a problem. I simply cut and pasted the the definition that most closely matched my personal usage of the word and I thought I had made that clear. Perhaps not.

 

I don't have the verses handy but if we can skip out of context doesn't it say in many places that this god is long suffering? This is synonymous for patience is it not?

 

Patience in relation to this god should be limitless from our point of view. He is timeless after all. Our actions would be like provoking him for a mere fraction of a second at most. That's the limit of tolerance before we'd better stop or be put down? Again, that's not too patient. Even the human leaders of these people are far more patient than their timeless god. The human leaders should be the ones telling the god that these people will never learn and the god should just put them all to death. The god should then tell the human that they will learn and things will be alright in the long run. But it's the opposite that happens. The humans must console the god. This is not how it should be.

 

Anyhow, I'd like to see a good definition of patience that includes being patient until you're not anymore. I'm angry until I'm not. I'm sad until I'm not. I'm patient until I'm not. I'm everything until I'm not. That's how it works isn't it?

 

You may say that God should be superior, but according to the Bible you quote, you are created in 'His image'.

This debatable item.

 

While God had patience, He didn't lose His temper, until His patience had run it's course. Yes, He forsees everything, and there is free will, and God knows when more 'patience' won't do any good. I fear that some of you think that God is all benevolent, forgiving, and while you embraced the scripture claiming that 'God is Love', you have ignored the scripture that says, 'it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a Living God'. Jesus said, "You do err, knowing not the Scriptures, nor the power of God".

So are you saying this god should lose his temper prior to losing his patience? By definition this can't happen. You can't be patient and angry at the same time otherwise you're showing tolerance. This god tolerates these people, and the world, more than anything. It has little patience with anything. It claims that it is slow to anger but that's propaganda.

 

As I said before, and forgive me my spelling...if you are going to take the Bible as the Word of God, pro or con, you have to understand it first, or any and all rants you or we may have don't count.

I don't care about spelling as long as I understand what you're saying.

 

However, as for the second bit, you haven't demonstrated that I don't have an understanding of the "Word of God" nor that you do in this case. I think we're just seeing this one differently is all and it's going to take a bit more to straighten it out (doesn't mean we're going to end up agreeing or anything ).

 

As for the 'invasion party' into someone else's land, I would hope that that's another thread, because I couldn't hope to address that here.

As Jun said, that really is the topic of this thread. I derailed it awhile back (I keep screwing over his threads...not on purpose though).

 

mwc

[Jun]

As Jun said, that really is the topic of this thread. I derailed it awhile back (I keep screwing over his threads...not on purpose though).

 

Mwc, I wouldn't say "screwing" I would say elaborating and expanding on the context.

 

I am in no way as knowledgeable about the bible as you or any of the others on this forum are. I am always glad to see your clarifications and added knowledge.

[mwc]

Mwc, I wouldn't say "screwing" I would say elaborating and expanding on the context.

 

I am in no way as knowledgeable about the bible as you or any of the others on this forum are. I am always glad to see your clarifications and added knowledge.

Well, okay, we'll call it "clarifications" if you like but "added knowledge" might be going too far. We'll see.

 

So, I did some more reading on this spy story (it's ahead of where I am in the OT...understanding the rituals makes for slow reading).

 

One thing that struck me was this verse "13:16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua." Now, I realize that it doesn't look like much. It's just a verse after the list of men that went on the trip, but I've notice the bible plays this game with names when it's usurping something (I can't really prove it though but I'm hoping to be able to someday). The name "Oshea" means "salvation" but the name "Jehoshua" means "Jehova is salvation." It may be nothing but I think we're seeing the story of someone else being rewritten for the Hebrews. Sort of how "Saul" suddenly, and for no reason, becomes "Paul" in Acts (it's gluing a story that didn't sell to one that did and Saul is "close enough" to "Paul" that renaming him is a one line affair..."oh yeah, Saul is Paul now").

 

Additionally, 10 times is the amount of times it takes to try this gods patience in case anyone is wondering. "14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;"

 

Then the people are sent wandering around for forty years (they can't leave the herd I guess) and then, once again, YHWH finds it very necessary to tell Moses how to perform offerings (once the people are in the land he promised them...in forty years! This guy just can't wait for that "sweet savor" these offerings provide to him ). Everyone under twenty makes it in though, as does Joshua (of course) and Caleb (a spy who reported back positively...from the tribe of Judah...which if I looked I would imagine this book favors Judah and its allies and so we get the rules that Judah's priests, and version of YHWH. like).

 

mwc