Don't Send Kids To Public School!

[MrBungle]

This shit sounds like it was written by my old pastor

 

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42704

 

What the article really says hidden away in typical Christian "paranoid the world is evil and should be avoided at every turn" dialogue is:

 

1. If you send your kids to pubic school they will get a different point of view and it may make more sense than yours so don't do it.

 

2. If you send your kids to public school they might associate with people of divergent view points which will cause arguments and the development of critical thinking skills which are evil because critical thinking is not compatible with blind unsubstantiated faith which is the entire foundation of your belief system.

 

3. If you send your kids to public school they may end up meeting people that are "evil" (that means different for the rest of us) and they may even end up making friends with them which will make it hard to get them to hate them, you don't want your kids associating with a homosexual or a secularist, or someone that uses "bad language", or someone that doesn't go to church, or someone that believes in evolution, or someone that listens to *gasp* rock music and watches rated R movies do you?!

 

4. Instead of sending your kids to public school we should start indoctrinating them at church so that everyone they meet and associate with will be a fundy Christian, then they will be just as delusional as the rest of us and we won't have to argue with them cuz they won't know any better, and they will forever be trapped in Christian culture by their social ineptness won't it just be awesome!

 

did I miss anything?

[Guest theINC]

or someone that listens to *gasp* rock music and watches rated R movies do you?!

 

The Christians now use (hardcore) rock to convert the young ones. While every other person in my class is into Nazarite Vow and others, I'm listening to Gorillaz, Ben Folds, and System of a Down. Calmer, but anti-christian. Times change, huh?

[AKR]

This shit sounds like it was written by my old pastor

 

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42704

 

What the art

 

Clipped an unnecessary "full quote" of lengthy post just above a single sentence answer. Please cut and paste the information to which you desire to answer to.

 

Thanks.

 

kFL

 

n Christian culture by their social ineptness won't it just be awesome!

 

did I miss anything?

 

 

hey, it worked on me.......for about 8 years.

[Unknowing1]

This guy needs to do his homework as he has a few things wrong.

 

My kids attend and attended public schools. I have never seen them censor Christmas. Christmas Tree in the front lobby for all to see as they walk in the front door, napkins used that were green and red, Toys for Tots drives not to mention the band concerts featuring, the very Christian song, Oh Come All Ye Faithful and requests for contributions to the Christmas Mother.

 

What bothers me is that unless the parent is involved they don't realize just how much Christianity is in the schools and will believe this guy.

 

I want my children to grow up exposed to differing opinions and ideas. I want them to appreciate the differences in others and be sensative to the feelings of others. The diversity in the public schools allows that. Why have a child if you only want him/her to think and act the same as everyone else. You could have saved yourself some hassels and instead of having a kid bought a robot instead.

[Clergicide]

"moral relativism (no fixed standards), academic dumbing down, far-left programs, near absence of discipline and the persistent but pitiable rationalizations offered by government education professionals."

 

It's unfortunate, but a little of this is true. I attended a private Catholic grade school, and because there was no local private high school, many of us transferred into the public school system. The high school was gargantuan in comparison, but I still found myself in class with most of the same students, because we all tested into the honors programs. We had received a better education. I kept in touch with a few that had to suffer the commute to private schools, and some of them transferred later, but the comparison in education made even the honors program look like a joke.

 

Doing my undergraduate work, I had more than a few professors that put more importance in being 'on message' than academic proficiency. I found myself turning in papers I wouldn't have given myself a 'C' for, and receiving an exceptional grade because it conformed to a particular worldview. Sad, but true.

 

If/when I have kids, I will send them to private school, even if it's a Christian institution. Now, in this part of the country Christian private schools offer superior education, that may not be true elsewhere. I have a sister in Tennesee, and from all indication it isn't universally true there.

[Guest defygravity2006]

I think that would be true of any private school, not just religious ones. A lot of it has to do with the environments the students come from. Private schools tend to be very homogenized, especially religious schools. Kids who go to private school generally come from families that are well-off financially, therefore having more money to spend on educational toys and trips to museums and so on, and whose parents maintain a more active role in their grade school and high school education (they are paying for it, after all).

On the other hand, kids in public schools are a mixed bag. My parents are both public school teachers, and my mother has had kindergarten students from all kinds of families, from the ones who's parents gave them a Leapfrog for their second birthday and can read walking in the door to the ones who live in the housing projects whose parents barely speak to them. You can't expect the same level of education to occur in these two situations. If the families who send their children to private school sent them to public schools instead and maintained their level of involvement in their education, public schools would be much better off.

[Johnmilton]

Growing up, my brother and I were shuffled around a tad bit, in total living in three different states before I left for college. I attended an episcopal school from 8th to the middle of 10th grade. Up until this point, my brother and I had only gone to private schools, our first being far, far superior to the joke and farce that was the tiny episcopal school, but nothing could have prepared us for the hell we ended up in public school.

 

My dad was no longer teaching so we couldn't afford private school. I transfered in to a large 4A public school a couple weeks before thanksgiving in 1997. This school was on the block schedule, four classes a day, every day.

 

The teacher would give out a work sheet, lecture for twenty minutes or so straight out of the textbook, then we'd spend the rest of the time doing one multiple choice worksheet. If we didn't finish, this was homework.

 

Teachers would openly evangelize to the students... a couple of the bio teachers actually gave out extra credit for students who went to creationism seminars... and churches would openly advertise their various services on the school bulletin boards.

 

The kids were so horrible to my brother that he stopped talking altogether for about a month and would not leave his room after school and would malinger whenever he could get away with it. To this day he won't mention what all they did to him and he gets cold and silent whenever it's brought up.

 

My life wasn't much better, between avoiding the various white and black gangs in the school (because i was a transfer for some reason they had me being a "student ambassador" during one class and going around the school to hand out notes) and trying not to get my ass kicked and protect my brother on the school bus. After about a month of all this, I simply told my parents this was enough, and I would no longer go to that school... they could make me ride the bus, but they could not make me attend that hellhole, and I let them know if I was harassed one more time, I would defend myself and Ender's Game somebody's ass... but what finally did it was how bad my brother was getting and his total communicative breakdown.

 

We were lucky enough that my parents could "home school" us for the rest of the years as my mom didn't work. This consisted of me getting a near full time job and taking "dual enrollment" classes at the local community college, which I found to be awesome and thoroughly enjoyed. Community college is a wonderful alternative to high school, and those of you are in public school hells, I'd suggest looking into dual enrollment possibilities.

 

Both my brother and I got into a good public university and have both graduated.

 

The torment and intellectual stagnation at that public school hell is tough to describe. Though I've never been in prison, that's what I always thought of it as. A warehouse packed full of too many inmates who were forced into small classrooms for two hours at a time and then shuffled to yet another classroom... all the while not trying to get the attention of the numerous thugs and psychopaths.

 

I am a staunch supporter of home school as I see it as the alternative to the shit that's running rampant in public schools... intelligunt desine (if not official many, many teachers in my region get around the rules to push it), unchecked bullying, being warehoused like cattle, iditoioc teachers, an administration that doesn't care about students, and pointless and moronic standardized testing so "no child is left behind."

 

No way in hell would I ever send our kid to that.

 

Again I'm lucky because my wife and I have figured out how we can viably home school our children. We're a good team because she's a math whiz and concentrated in biology at college, and I'm a history and lit guy.

 

While home schooling is unfortunately connected to the insane religious right, please, PLEASE remember there are people like my wife and me who home school for some of the very opposite reasons that christer moron laid out in the link.

 

We will home school because we actually care about critical thinking and giving our kids the best education we can. And you sure can't get that around here, at least.

[KenneyVTX]

This is an interesting topic and very pertinat to my current situtaion. My partner and I are in the adoption process and we are adopting a teenager. I am in favour of sending him to a private school, however for someone who has come from the public system I'm concerned I'd be doing more harm than going in the opppsite direction (public to private).

I'd like to hear more John Milton about his experiences, particularly the logistics of home schooling. I work from home, but that's the key I still work.

 

I'm the result of a public education. It was so hit and miss, secular vs parochial was a minor thing when compared with the over arching drive to mediocrity that is epidemic. Honors students are overloaded to the point the are forced back to the middle. Students that need greater help are dragged back to the middle, but they are still kept in special education classes because it doesn't effect the numbers that way. If you fail the exit test, you're given a cert of completion rather than a diploma. This keeps the drop out numbers down and funding up. As I see it, public education is nothing more than a shell game now and the students are the peas shuffled around. All so the configuration on paper gives the greatest financial advantage of the school.

[Clergicide]

I think that would be true of any private school, not just religious ones. A lot of it has to do with the environments the students come from. Private schools tend to be very homogenized, especially religious schools. Kids who go to private school generally come from families that are well-off financially, therefore having more money to spend on educational toys and trips to museums and so on, and whose parents maintain a more active role in their grade school and high school education (they are paying for it, after all).

On the other hand, kids in public schools are a mixed bag. My parents are both public school teachers, and my mother has had kindergarten students from all kinds of families, from the ones who's parents gave them a Leapfrog for their second birthday and can read walking in the door to the ones who live in the housing projects whose parents barely speak to them. You can't expect the same level of education to occur in these two situations. If the families who send their children to private school sent them to public schools instead and maintained their level of involvement in their education, public schools would be much better off.

 

From my experience, even when all was equal the results were different between schools. We had kids from economically disadvantaged families, and broken homes in our school. But because their parents donated 10% of what little income they had to the church, the educational fees were waived. I can think of many other students that had a public school counter-part, and the difference remained.

 

Which suggests that it is the school environment itself that is the determining factor. Reflecting on it now, I would say one of the major differences within the schools were the respective views on intelligence and academic performance. In public school being too smart was grounds for exclusion, and mediocrity was the standard of the 'in' croud. Whereas in private school, no one wanted to be the dumbass, and those performing the highest were respected for it. In early socialization these differences in view clearly have a major impact.

[white_raven23]

I am a staunch supporter of home school as I see it as the alternative to the shit that's running rampant in public schools... intelligunt desine (if not official many, many teachers in my region get around the rules to push it), unchecked bullying, being warehoused like cattle, iditoioc teachers, an administration that doesn't care about students, and pointless and moronic standardized testing so "no child is left behind."

 

Hmph.

 

"No child left behind" is only the acknowledged HALF of the agenda.

 

The other half is ."no child gets ahead either".

 

The christian private school I went to up through fourth grade did not reflect social reality, and ensured I was WAY behind in math.

 

The public schools I went to from then on were ruled by bullies and assholes (the kids) and "non-authority authorities who treated YOU like the problem if you went to them with a social problem.

 

High school....I could have happily skipped.

 

College was paradise. If I could have been taking some college classes at the same time I was in high school (and I could have....but gee....guess what NONE of the school counselors TOLD me?), I would have enjoyed high school a lot more.

[Amethyst]

If/when I have kids, I will send them to private school, even if it's a Christian institution. Now, in this part of the country Christian private schools offer superior education, that may not be true elsewhere. I have a sister in Tennesee, and from all indication it isn't universally true there.

 

That depends on whether the school is a fundy school or not. I went to a fundy Lutheran elementary school through 6th grade. They discouraged learning about anything that was not church-approved, especially evolution. They taught a strictly creationist PoV.

[Johnmilton]

This is an interesting topic and very pertinat to my current situtaion. My partner and I are in the adoption process and we are adopting a teenager. I am in favour of sending him to a private school, however for someone who has come from the public system I'm concerned I'd be doing more harm than going in the opppsite direction (public to private).

I'd like to hear more John Milton about his experiences, particularly the logistics of home schooling. I work from home, but that's the key I still work.

 

I'm the result of a public education. It was so hit and miss, secular vs parochial was a minor thing when compared with the over arching drive to mediocrity that is epidemic. Honors students are overloaded to the point the are forced back to the middle. Students that need greater help are dragged back to the middle, but they are still kept in special education classes because it doesn't effect the numbers that way. If you fail the exit test, you're given a cert of completion rather than a diploma. This keeps the drop out numbers down and funding up. As I see it, public education is nothing more than a shell game now and the students are the peas shuffled around. All so the configuration on paper gives the greatest financial advantage of the school.

 

Back in 98 when we began our little home school trek through the stars, I started in 4 by-mail correspondence courses through the University of Arizona (or University of Arizona, I forget, it was one of the big public universities in AZ). I did these by mail correspondence courses for the first semester of 1998... as it's a college, it went by semester... and then got my job and in the fall started taking the dual enrollment classes at the local CC.

 

My dad was always at work and my mom was/is pretty loopy. We didn't have any regimented classes or learning sessions per se, but rather we did the work via textbooks or correspondence which we worked on our own. But she got us involved with the local home schooling association, which in our area is hard, pipe-hitting, stab you in the gut and watch you bleed christian, so you can imagine how that went for us socially.

 

After a few field trips (to bob jones university to see "art"), that ended. I did my correspondence deal and CC classes, then went off to college in 2000.

 

With my brother's and my experience, we were both already at an age where we had the basics. My mom really did jack with home schooling cause she was crazy with her own issues. Regardless, we were both in a far better place, educationally, intellectually, and most importantly, securely, than that hell that was our public school.

 

My experience, at least at the teenage level, has really helped me look at home schooling logistically. My wife and I have a basic idea of how we're going about home schooling as one of us will work at home while we're home schooling and we can push our fields of knowledge while the other can reinforce theirs after work in a brief session. Fortunately, we both have a good grasp of the basics for kids, in both arts and science so to speak, so we'll be able to give our kids a well rounded education.

 

I firmly believe Wikipedia is the best educational tool of our time for children. I am against censorship of any kind and our children will have total access to the internet, as I did when I grew up and logged into new orleans bulletin boards and found all kinds of information. All those wonderful Mark Foley "safety" issues and all that aside, the internet is the best way to find knowledge, create a curriculum, and provide a kid with critical thinking as they have unhindered access to look up all forms of information.

 

And when I was growing up, the dirtiest language the worst behavior so to speak happened on the bus, at school, or around other kids, not in movies or any other venue that the christian right wing rails against.

 

Working at home can absolutely work with home schooling. Ultimately, this is what we plan to do, when both my wife and I can work at home. I wish I had had wikipedia back in 1997... I love that site and back then I would have had a field day.

[Trancelation]

or someone that listens to *gasp* rock music and watches rated R movies do you?!

 

The Christians now use (hardcore) rock to convert the young ones. While every other person in my class is into Nazarite Vow and others, I'm listening to Gorillaz, Ben Folds, and System of a Down. Calmer, but anti-christian. Times change, huh?

Boy, do they ever!

 

I have a friend (a Christian) that played in a band like this, and subsequently listens to this type of music as a regular part of his auditory diet. One of the interesting things is that bands like these are often manned by very young men, to make them more associative to the "youngins". And don't get me wrong, the musical aspect of this stuffis awesome - I love the guitar and drumwork and screaming and growling of Under0ath and Symphony In Peril, but the lyrics . . . *vomit*

 

There aren't enough anti-Christian bands. Especially not in the hardcore, metalcore and thrash genres. Fortunately, Shadows Fall and Heaven Shall Burn have a lot of material, and Lamb of God is overwhelmingly critical of the established, systematic authority of Christianity. You'll find more than a little anti-Christian "bigotry" in death and black metal, but there needs to be a counterweight to the influx of Christianity into the more modern, popular metal genres.

[The Paineful Truth]

Public and parochial schools both indoctrinate their charges into their respective dogmas. The only choice is home schooling or independent private schools which cost a fortune. Answer: junk the teacher's unions, and the only way to do that is vouchers.

[godlessgrrl]

I have absolutely no experience with private school (other than going to a small, private, daycare-like kindergarten back in the mid-70's). I never went to any religious educational institute whatsoever. I am a product of the highly flawed, utterly mismanaged, hit-or-miss Seattle Public School District.

 

I got lucky in some ways, not so lucky in others. In the 70's and 80's I had teachers perceptive enough to realize that I was smarter than most of my peers, and so tested first for the advanced program, then for the gifted program. The way the district worked at the time, the gifted kids got the best teachers, so for 4 years in middle school, I had the same core group of amazing teachers. Highschool was hit or miss as far as educational quality went, but I had enough sense to know a good teacher when I had one, so somehow I managed to get through that okay too. Learningwise, I got a decent education.

 

The biggest issues and problems I remember had to do with the flailing attempts at desegregation that the district was trying at the time, mainly involving busing kids from all over the city away from their neighborhood schools in an effort to even out racial demographics. It got the numbers evened out, sure, but subjected lots of kids to ridiculously long bus rides (mine was 40 minutes at the longest), weakened local support for neighborhood schools (parents had no motivation to be involved in their kid's schools when they were so far away, and - for lower income parents - very hard to get to), and did nothing to actually improve the quality of anybody's education overall: the gifted kids still got the best teachers, and everybody else ended up in the same academic boat they were in regardless of what school they were in. Plus at the middle school I attended, there was a great deal of racial tension between the local African-American students and the imported white kids; most of the bullying I received was related to this issue.

 

I dug college though. I could go to college for the rest of my life, if I had the cash, just earning endless degrees in whatever I felt like.

 

Honestly, though, the local public school district has been mismanaged and fucked up for as long as I can remember. I can understand why there's been such a push for school vouchers and charter schools over the past decade; people are fed up with the crappy school district that just can't ever seem to get its shit together no matter how much money is thrown at it. There are good programs in it, and good teachers, and you can get a good education, it's just such a damn crapshoot.

 

I dunno. The crappy state of local education is one more thing on my very long list of why I won't be having kids.

[Jubilant]

While home schooling is unfortunately connected to the insane religious right, please, PLEASE remember there are people like my wife and me who home school for some of the very opposite reasons that christer moron laid out in the link.

 

 

Thank you!

 

We choose home education because it is a great fit for *our* family...not because we are afraid of the world. Matter of fact, I'd venture to say that because we home educate that we have more of an opportunity to be in the world. However, I realize that it isn't for everyone.

[Ro-bear]

Public and parochial schools both indoctrinate their charges into their respective dogmas. The only choice is home schooling or independent private schools which cost a fortune. Answer: junk the teacher's unions, and the only way to do that is vouchers.

 

That is a pretty simplistic viewpoint. If you want to homeschool and are capable of doing it, more power to you. Don't expect the state to pay you for it, though. They are responsible for providing textbooks, assessment tools, etc. No more. If you get "your" education dollars refunded, why not rebates for childless couples? Vouchers are a means of bolstering religious and private schools, which can hand-pick their clientele, at the expense of public schools, which must take all comers.

 

I suggest people with children either homeschool, send their children to a private school (if they can afford it), or raise them in an area with decent public schools. This is possible even in East Tennessee, where I live and teach. Get involved in your child's education; you have more power than you think. Unfortunately, most parents can't be bothered to do any more than gripe. My kids go to a public school. It is not perfect, but it is more than adequate. I am thoroughly involved in my children's education. I inspect their homework. I engage them in activities that enhance their learning and engage them and establish relevance. I suspect they would compare favorably with homeschooled children. If the public schools aren't turning out the product our society needs, it is because parents delegate the whole shebang to them, including motivation and behavior modification. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

I am the product of a public school education. My education was not perfect, and my teachers certainly were not, but I fared well. My public school experience was not traumatic. Nor do teachers at any school I have attended, taught at, or otherwise know of personally traumatize, preach to, or tolerate bullying of their charges. I'm sure there are such schools, but they are beyond my experience.

 

*cue inspirational music*

 

Public education is what has made and continues to make our country great. Any child, regardless of economic standing, race, or religion, is provided with an opportunity to improve his or her mind and future prospects through public education. It is hardly the fault of the system if many, through ignorance, apathy, or sloth, choose not to avail themselves of the opportunity. I, and most of my colleagues, would walk through fire for a kid who actually wanted to learn. I once ate a bug to get my Fundamental class to stop farting and throwing crap at each other long enough for me to deliver a lesson. (It worked, too: I told them to go outside and find the largest bug they could, and I would eat it if they did what I said for just forty-five minutes. They brought me a large beetle. It was crunchy, juicy, and bitter. They kept their word, but every now and then, one would shake his head and say, "Damn!") I have little patience with vouchers, No Child Left Behind, or any other initiative designed to undermine confidence in and funding for public education. If certain political and religious groups have their way, It will be privatized education as a dominant paradigm, with remnant public schools "teaching" a few handicapped, developmentally disabled, sociopathic, and/or poor kids. The private schools will be Saks Fifth Avenue quality for the wealthy (subsidized by vouchers, of course), and Bill's Bargain Basement for the economically disadvantaged. I will fight that outcome with every fiber of my being. As for the teachers' "unions", that is how we keep teachers from being fired for daring to do their jobs. Even teachers who are tenured can be fired for incompetence, immorality, and/or insubordination; what more do you want? In my state, teachers cannot go on strike. It is illegal. That's one powerful union!

 

*cut inspirational music as it rises to crescendo*

[nirrti]

If certain political and religious groups have their way, It will be privatized education as a dominant paradigm, with remnant public schools "teaching" a few handicapped, developmentally disabled, sociopathic, and/or poor kids. The private schools will be Saks Fifth Avenue quality for the wealthy (subsidized by vouchers, of course), and Bill's Bargain Basement for the economically disadvantaged.

 

I'm afraid that's already the case in many areas regardless of whether or not vouchers are available. It's more obvious in larger cities where "white flight" has chased away people with higher incomes hence draining the source of property taxes that would've kept schools better funded and parents who were the most involved.

 

Here where I live, we have two school systems that are literally mirror images of each other. One is in the inner city, 80% African-American, made up of low-income areas and has several schools on the failing list in danger of state take-over. The other is made up of those in the wealthier suburbs, mostly white and is among the highest rated in the state. Parents will pay out the wazoo for homes located in the suburban district just so their kids can go to those schools. And lord forbid when the city annexes one of the suburbs, making their schools part of the city. You'll see whole rows of houses with "for sale" signs in the yard within a week.

 

The city's mayor is pushing for school consolidation to unify the two districts. But the suburbanites would rather move to England (they're almost there judging from how far out they've moved already) than let that happen. But who can blame them when there's a big fight at a city school involving 45 kids in the cafeteria and the armed police officers have to break it up by pepper spraying them? Or how about when the kids have so little fear of authority they push another police officer down the bleachers at a high school pep rally sending him to the ICU with broken bones?

[The Paineful Truth]

Ro-Bear wrote:

I suggest people with children either homeschool, send their children to a private school (if they can afford it), or raise them in an area with decent public schools.

 

So now, in effect, the government is telling you where to live, if you can afford it. The government school system needs competition, but the main obstacle are the teacher's unions. BTW, for those that think that Europe hung the moon, they have been having success with vouchers. And if you're afraid of religious indoctrination (that the parents would give them anyway), why aren't you equally afraid of the political indoctrination/dumbing down in our government schools?

 

It seems a lot of people say that the government schools THEIR kids go to is a good one. In some cases that's true, but more often, it's not.

[LadyFeline]

Until public schools start focusing on education - rather than that Standardized testing shit and sports, sports, sports, and MORE sports - they are going to suck.

 

Until there is a standardized set of rules for homeschooling that must be met before the commencement of parental teaching, and which must CONTINUE to be met, THAT is going to suck.

 

Private schools, no matter where you look, will almost always suck because there are no guidelines as to how they must be run curriculum-wise.

 

No matter where you look, the state of education in this country is shameful, and is only going to be fixed by concentrated efforts of the government and the general populace.

[Jubilant]

That is a pretty simplistic viewpoint. If you want to homeschool and are capable of doing it, more power to you. Don't expect the state to pay you for it, though. They are responsible for providing textbooks, assessment tools, etc. No more.

 

No, the schools have not even that obligation...but my tax dollars still pay for the public school systems regardless. The testing depends on the state and laws vary. Here in Florida we can home educate under an umbrella school (mine only requires 180 'attendance and its perfectly legal), whereas in New York the parents do not have a choice but to have their children tested yearly. Hopefully that law will be done away with though just as in other states.

 

 

If you get "your" education dollars refunded, why not rebates for childless couples?

 

Why not rebate everyone for paying taxes where they really don't want to pay them? Seriously though, why make everyone suffer by forcing them into only ONE kind of education?

 

Unfortunately, most parents can't be bothered to do any more than gripe. My kids go to a public school. It is not perfect, but it is more than adequate. I am thoroughly involved in my children's education. I inspect their homework. I engage them in activities that enhance their learning and engage them and establish relevance.

 

"Most"? That is a pretty broadstroke that you have used. Many parents are involved in their childrens education, homework, and they do care, but the child is who *they* are going to be and many do not learn well with how they are taught in schools. Public school benefits "educationally" the most for the what, 25% (if that) who are able to test well and learn from textbooks? What about the other 75% who do not learn best like that? The *bottom* 25% are labeled ADD, lazy, stupid, behind, unmotivated, and the middle 50% are average. At least having school choice would enable people to send their child somewhere that best suits their childs needs rather than being forced to put their child into a place that benefits them zilch. I find it laughable that many teachers are pro-choice on abortion but anti-choice for schools.

 

I suspect they would compare favorably with homeschooled children.

 

But no one should be compared like that, IMHO. People are who they are, just because one is home educated doesn't mean that they are off to attend a major university or become doctors, lawyers, etc. What is one persons idea of success is not necessarily anothers. I define a successful person as one who is happy in and of themselves despite what they are doing for a living.

 

If the public schools aren't turning out the product our society needs,

 

Oh, but it is turning out the "product" our society *needs*....people who take their place in the work force. The top students go on to more individualized professions (unless they hated school and all the pressure and want complete freedom...which many do), while the majority grudgingly take their place working in the factory line or office building.

 

it is because parents delegate the whole shebang to them, including motivation and behavior modification. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

Hmmm, the country pretty much forces the public school system on parents (compulsory education, many do not know about home schooling or standards are too high for them to try it out, or they can't afford private school) 180 days, for about 7-9 hours daily, not including homework at night, and its all on the parents? The parents aren't the ones delegating, it is the country forcing the parents to be compliant with a bunch of rules and regulations that force them to give their children up to the state at age 6. When parents try to remove their child from the antiquated public school system most teachers unions want to make it harder for the parents.

 

I am the product of a public school education. My education was not perfect, and my teachers certainly were not, but I fared well.

 

I fared well too but I want better than that for my children; I want them to enjoy learning, not hate it. I want them to follow their own ebb and flow in life, not some pre-determined path as set forth by others.

 

My public school experience was not traumatic. Nor do teachers at any school I have attended, taught at, or otherwise know of personally traumatize, preach to, or tolerate bullying of their charges. I'm sure there are such schools, but they are beyond my experience.

 

 

My history teacher (football coach) used to cuff male students on the head and make them a laughing stock of the classroom. Funny, the guys that he coached on his football team could goof around and not have much happen but Joe Blow the vocational student was made to feel stupid and inferior. Our Spanish teacher (25 at the time) used to have the girls with nice asses stand in front of the class, he once told us that "this" is what an ass should look like. That pathetic excuse for a human was fired about four years later for sexual harrassment. My accounting teacher had many girls in our class in tears because they didn't understand accounting (I did great in accounting but not geometry, go figure). He pissed us off so bad that all of us marched down to the principals office, the result? For the last 6 months of school we used Accounting as a study hall and our teacher gave everyone A's. My science teacher was a riot but I hated science so I ended up getting C's and D's.

 

Public education is what has made and continues to make our country great.

 

Just because this country has *free* (forced) education does not mean that that is what makes this country great. What makes this country great is that people are free and people are allowed to be individual and unique.

 

Any child, regardless of economic standing, race, or religion, is provided with an opportunity to improve his or her mind and future prospects through public education.

 

And people should have that available and that is all fine and dandy but learning and improving one's mind aren't something only learned in public school.

 

Ro-Bear wrote:It is hardly the fault of the system if many, through ignorance, apathy, or sloth, choose not to avail themselves of the opportunity.

 

Have you taken into consideration that MOST people do not learn well with how the public schools are currently teaching? Have you considered each childs individual learning style and unique capabilities? If some 3-4 yo children (prodigys) can read and comprehend Homer's Illiad are other 3-4 year old reading disabled? If some 3-4 year olds can play Beethoven's Symphonys, are the children that can't musically learning disabled? If some 3-4 year can grasp physics, does that mean that other 3-4 year olds are scientifically learning disabled? What about the child that comprehends tough literature but cannot grasp algebra?

 

In the world, SOME people are good at what others are not, it is what makes the world go round; yet ONLY in the public school system is EVERYONE required to know and do the same thing and if they can't "cut it" they are given a label that makes them feel inferior or less intelligent. Sadly, many are damaged with the life drained out of them and they hate what they do for the whole rest of their lives.

 

I, and most of my colleagues, would walk through fire for a kid who actually wanted to learn.

 

So long as they are *wanting* to learn what you are requiring them to learn though, right? What about the child who wants to learn but not what you're teaching? Everyone wants to learn, we are all born with a desire to learn, but everyone is interested in different things, it is part of what makes us human. Many children have their love of learning squashed by forced learning and that is why they end up hating it, and sometimes vehemently, by the time they reach high school.

 

I once ate a bug to get my Fundamental class to stop farting and throwing crap at each other long enough for me to deliver a lesson. (It worked, too: I told them to go outside and find the largest bug they could, and I would eat it if they did what I said for just forty-five minutes. They brought me a large beetle. It was crunchy, juicy, and bitter. They kept their word, but every now and then, one would shake his head and say, "Damn!")

 

You sound like a fun teacher. I think that that is awesome.

 

 

I have little patience with vouchers, No Child Left Behind, or any other initiative designed to undermine confidence in and funding for public education.

 

I have no patience for NCLB but confidence in the public education system has been lacking for years.

 

 

Lady Feline wrote:

 

Until there is a standardized set of rules for homeschooling that must be met before the commencement of parental teaching, and which must CONTINUE to be met, THAT is going to suck.

 

Why should there be a standardized set of rules for early learning, that is what is screwing up everything in the first place? There are so many things to learn in this world and so many ways to learn them. Abe Lincoln taught himself to read (no *standards* required), Thomas Edison only had 3 months of formal early learning. There are many other people throughout history who didn't require a standardized set of rules in order to learn and thrive, why can't it be like that for those who choose to learn outside of the Public School system? Why can't Public Schools incorporate an atmosphere riddled with adults and or children who love and have passions for sharing information and let children choose not only what they want to learn but how to learn it?

 

Right now my daughter wants to learn about animals, they are her passion. She is 8 and goes online, plays Zoo Tycoon and looks at the Zoopedia, she has huge Encyclopedias about Dogs, Cats and Tigers that she reads. Through just learning about animals she has improved, on her own, reading comprehension, writing, math skills, spelling, computer skills, knowledge of not only animal but human body parts, geography, etc. There are many adults who are paid for that kind of knowledge. If she wants to understand more, she asks and we get books or talk to someone interesting with that same passion like the girl at the WildLife Sanctuary or the Zoo. However, she is not at all interested with other kinds of science, so what? She is also very good at basic math and is almost entirely self-taught, if she didn't understand a concept she would ask me. Just the other day she added up a list of items that she'd like for Christmas. Lastly, she is interested in making a website, so HTML is something that she (on her own volition) wants to learn. If she needs help by not being able to comprehend directions, she'll ask my husband and/or I for help and if we cannot understand, we'll ask someone who knows, which may or may not be a paid professional *teacher*.

 

My 12yo son is playing the guitar regularly and he loves and enjoys doing so. He also enjoys playing RuneScape online. I cannot begin to tell you the amount of learning that has happened because of that game. The other day I brought home a book of medieval life and both he and his sister knew almost everything in it just by playing that game: various types of armour, herbs, baking ingredients, types of metal (and which is the strongest), how bows and arrows are made; the list goes on and on. Through that game he is: meeting others from around the world and has been learning geography because of wanting to see where the people are from on a map, developing typing skills, reading comprehension, computer skills, etc. Again, that cannot be measured. He loves science but not learning about animals, he is more into the mathematical aspects. Reading Archimedes and the Door to Science was how he learned the formula for Pi, area, etc. but he hates doing "math problems" via a textbook.

 

Education will best be improved once we drop labels and standards. The fear is that people will not want to learn, those fears are only there because of our current system. You cannot stop people from wanting to learn, you can only hinder them by telling them that you *have to* learn this and/or can only learn about it this way. So what if a child learns about Columbus via the History Channel ™, rather than from a book? So what if some people do not know how to dissect a sentence? Not everyone wants to be a writer, but most people can put together a comprehendable sentence simply because they know how to speak. Besides, spell and grammar check are wonderful for those "challenged" in that area.

 

Anyway, that is my .99 cents worth.

[Mongo]

I think that would be true of any private school, not just religious ones. A lot of it has to do with the environments the students come from. Private schools tend to be very homogenized, especially religious schools. Kids who go to private school generally come from families that are well-off financially, therefore having more money to spend on educational toys and trips to museums and so on, and whose parents maintain a more active role in their grade school and high school education (they are paying for it, after all).

 

I believe this is true of secular private schools. Their whole sales pitch is that the school is superior.

 

I'm not convinced in any way about religious schools. They exist for the purposes of hiding information from kids and sheilding them. Indoctrination and discouragement of asking questions.

 

Caveat: I'm in Ontario and I know we have good schools here and my kids especially are in one of the better ones.

 

Xtian schools here typically have teachers who are not sufficiently qualified to teach in the Public system. Some that I know got their degrees from xtian universities in Folorida and I don't find them especially talented individuals. They ***absolutely do not*** have the extended resources (specialists) to handle kids with special needs nor do they have training to recognize them so that they can be referred to a specialist. Even more, when confronted with a subtle cognitive weakness, xtians are very quick to assign the fault to the child and label it a behaviour (a.k.a. moral) issue.

 

A neighbour has a daughter who fell behind in school due to not being diagnosed or managed correctly in the xtian school they sent her to. It got much better when she went to public school.

 

I am aware that in other parts of Canada there are pockets of very bad schools and provinces which do not have good policies. There may be some xtian schools that perform better than public but that would only be due to the failing of the nearby public school.

 

From what I read about America, the range of variation is much greater than Canada (more states than provinces) and so there may be areas where xtian education is superior but I doubt this is anything but an exception.

 

Mongo

[Vigile]

Public education is what has made and continues to make our country great.

 

I agree. It makes the country great for politicians and corporations who wish to ramrod through public policy and foreign affairs that are anything but in the best interest for the populice. The populice, due to their wonderful public education bends over each time and dutifully says "Thank you sir! May I have another!"

 

Seriously though, America is only great depending on which country you are comparing it to. If you are comparing it to Iraq, meh, it might be great (no thanks to us I might add). Most Europeans I know can run intellectual circles around the average American HS grad. The same can be said of the many Costa Ricans I know and even the Venezuelans I've met.

 

One last example, my nephew started his education in the US system through 8th grade. When he moved to Moscow he had to double up his work for two years taking remedial classes to catch up with the Russians his age. He is now ready to graduate and I can discuss issues with him the same way I can with the average college grad.

 

Adequate education is not adequate IMO.

[neverclear5]

I my experiance of the british school system they tend to only focus on that 50% in the middle. They get told how many kids they need at grade C or above and try and meet this target. I or my best friend, were the top students in every class and we got almost no encouragement in anything. The least clever kids got ignored or packed off to do extra work experience in menial jobs. Everyone else got taught how to get a C in the exam and nothing more. It was rare to get the chance to ask an interesting question and whenever I did it was to an uproar of growns from everyone else who just wanted to go outside and play football.

[Gaura]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that public schools tend to be one-size fits -all and so focused on discipline that not so much learning gets done. As the mom of a late-talking son, I am getting the strong impression that John may not do well at our local elementary. I am going to check out the local Montessori but am also strongly considering homeschooling. There is a homeschool support group in our area and I can use them to help with the socialization aspect, since that is something he will need.

 

Some kids just need one-on-one instruction. Some need the group atmosphere of a school. I think every parent needs to be able to make that choice for themselves.